Everyday Sniper Podcast: Knowledge Bomb Edition: Rise of the Valkyrie

[Jackomason]

Hey frank, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the two latest hornady podcasts. First was the 4DOF one and the second was the 'Your groups are too small' podcast.

I've noticed in general a shift toward loosening requirements/expectations for precision in the name of statistical significance.

This is quite the paraphrase, but they claim that groups under 1/2" are a statistical phenomenon and that nearly all guns are 1"+ with a big enough sample size (30-50 shots).

They say you need 10+ (preferably 20+) shots to zero and true data.

If this is true, how can you bring a shooter into class and take him from a 1" shooter to a 1/2" shooter?

 

[Lowlight]

It sounds to me they are layering on Chris Ways theology that the group should be from all positions across the course, hence the goal of 1 MOA in size.

Vs

Setting the group from one position like prone or the bench. But the reality of 2022/2023 is, we can shoot really small groups from single positions. But yes at some point the shooter will wreck the curve.

But I would have to listen as I have not

 

[Jackomason]

They are talking on a different level than Chris way. They even lumped in BR and F-Class rifles with their accuracy claims.

Just to clarify that wasn't a shot at you at all. Everything you've said has been money for me. Something is off about what they're saying. But I can't make heads or tails of it. I guess it's another thing I can go test haha.

But yeah I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Lowlight]

I get it, I had not heard it

 

[ma smith]

FWIW, here's some real world Data, I just happened to have this lying around, from this weekend.

N=24 rounds, Classes= 4 x N=6, partitioned into 8 x N =3 shot groups, shot round robin.
Not the best groups, but All partitions are sub-1MOA. All composite are also sub-1MOA.

You can see the 3 shot groups DO get larger as the data is aggregated into 6 shot composites.
Also, its not THAT hard to turn .5 MOA 3-shot groups into .8 or .9 or ±1MOA, due to compositing the group.

FWIW, IIRC All it takes is like a ~.1 mil POI shift in your setup/POI variation ( as .1 mil is ~1/3 MOA)

The more positions we build, the more likely we will induce a POI shift...
so 24 unique positions built vs 4 positions built...etc.

That being said, it does look like Class C is legit outperforming, which is what I was looking for.

 

[Lowlight]

That is all true because we are including the shooter in the equation.

We are the problem, we know we cannot maintain that perfect position with recoil mixed in.

That said, we have come to understand that, we can infer a lot from our groups, big or small.

If we run a 40 shot MV test it will be different from 5, but does it give us anything worth changing the number over, or is trued with 5 just as good as trued with 50, as I don't see a lot of people doing 50 shot control groups.

So while we know, more is better, at one point is, when is more too much to be practical

 

[WittyOwl]

It's hard to comprehend that after all the testing and data over the years clearly illustrating it's parallels to the .223 Rem, that the Valkyrie is still in existence, particularly in a bolt gun.

 

[Diverhunter]

I guess that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

 

[WittyOwl]

I guess that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

Or vanilla and French vanilla.

 

[John Glidewell]

Back in November I said I was going to put a Valk together to test some stuff because what @lowlight was posting, so here it is. This is not definitive, but it does shine some light. The rig is a Big Horn Origin, bedded in a Manners PRS/TCS with a Leupold MK 5 7-35, barrel is an X-Caliber 24" 5R 7 twist. The barrel was originally on a Savage small shank running 80.5 at 2800 with N550. It was built for my youngest but he decided he did not like doing long range shooting, so the barrel was pulled at 750 rounds. Equipment I use; Whidden dies, Area 419 Zero press, V4 auto throw with AnD FX120i, Magneto speed V3 and Lab Radar. All velocities were within less than 10 fps on everything, so the numbers posted here are all V3 numbers. Brass pics are of the RL 15.5 as there are some pressure signs on it. The Big Horns are mechanical ejection so you do not see ejector marks, but you can see the ejector slot marking the brass. They go from Left to Right 25.5, 26.0, 26.5 and 27 grains. The RL 15.5 had mild bolt lift and click at top with the 27-grain load. I did not have any bolt lift or bolt clicks with anything else fired. All 3 powders were the same charge weights for a side-by-side comparison. Powders run were CFE 223, RL15.5 and 2000 MR. Primers were CCI BR4s. Bullet was a 90 SMK at .035 off the lands. I ran 10 rounds of previous load to foul barrel before testing. Testing was 4 shots each charge weight from prone with bipod and rear bag. I let the gun cool for a few min between each string and logged data, inspecting brass etc before shooting next string. Below are the pics of the results. RL 15.5 produced the best speeds. 2000 MR seemed to produce the better / more consistent groups. All viable powders. I use QL for barrel times and pressure. The barrel times I am looking at are nodes 4.5 and 5 on calculator and times are shown on far right in QL data. RL 15.5 has 2 potentials, 25.2 at 2752 and 26.4 at 2872 but that might be a bit warm and it might be a bit hard on primer pockets. I am going to test both those loads and see what happens.

 

[Simonsza1]

500 pieces of starline ️ showed up yesterday! Things are coming together. Scored some cfe223 also now just waiting on Fritz. I’m feeling giddy about this Valkyrie build, can’t wait to put rounds down range. Should be an awesome rifle for the wife to match shoot with, she just a little thing.