So when you look online and read how good everyone is with their 3 shot groups @ 1/4" MOA and then look at the F Class rules and see that it is 20 shots with a 1 MOA 10 ring............ How many people really shoot perfect scores at FTR and F-Open ?
F T/R Competition F Class perfect score ?
- Thread starter Flat Tire
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This is going to get good.
There are many rifles and people, who under good conditions who can deliver a 3 shot 1/4 inch group at 100 yards, wind is rarely a factor. This takes some skill and is a great test for a rifle too. Many rifles can do this with a decent amount of handload work up. A five shot group is harder. A 10 shot group is harder yet. Do it in a time limit and let that barrel get hot and it is even harder. Many people, including myself are happy when it happens consistently and then you can grow your yardage. There are some theories as to why this doesn't always work and that is the pursuit we follow. This is far harder than it looks, even for many of us here. At 300 yards, wind begins to become much more of a factor.
After 500 yards, a lot of skill and a little luck. Now my nine year old nephew was ringing the gong consistently at almost 300 yards, but this does not mean he can do it all the time. I know of many young people regularly reported as doing it a 1K, and I guess they are out there. I see all the magazines have it like anyone can do it, so it should be easy. I mean any 15 year old can have a $3 K scope and a custom built rifle and they do it. But, for the rest of us mere mortals, I would say that isn't the norm. Although, with my future build of a .260 and a decent scope, I hope to get my 5 year old nephew out to 500 yards on an 8 inch gong, his first time of shooting, so there are no bad habits.
Perhaps you can see I am a bit sarcastic, it isn't that easy for many of us. There are a whole bunch of folks who probably post and did something once or twice. And if you shoot regularly and practice you should improve and things should tighten up. Now I have to go work on a 6 x 47 build because I think my 3 year old niece is going to go for it at 1K soon - well she isn't exactly born yet, but ugh, I think you get the picture.
After 500 yards, a lot of skill and a little luck. Now my nine year old nephew was ringing the gong consistently at almost 300 yards, but this does not mean he can do it all the time. I know of many young people regularly reported as doing it a 1K, and I guess they are out there. I see all the magazines have it like anyone can do it, so it should be easy. I mean any 15 year old can have a $3 K scope and a custom built rifle and they do it. But, for the rest of us mere mortals, I would say that isn't the norm. Although, with my future build of a .260 and a decent scope, I hope to get my 5 year old nephew out to 500 yards on an 8 inch gong, his first time of shooting, so there are no bad habits.
Perhaps you can see I am a bit sarcastic, it isn't that easy for many of us. There are a whole bunch of folks who probably post and did something once or twice. And if you shoot regularly and practice you should improve and things should tighten up. Now I have to go work on a 6 x 47 build because I think my 3 year old niece is going to go for it at 1K soon - well she isn't exactly born yet, but ugh, I think you get the picture.
While I don't keep up, years ago, before the target size change, ( and certainly this helped prompted it) at the Spirit of America Match the aggregate for the week was won by X count, 6 days or so of shooting and there was several guys who went without a point dropped. The multi shooter tie was decided by X count.
Since the target change I don't know if they have gotten back up there to determining the winner by X count. But it wouldn't surprise me if it's close to that again.
Since the target change I don't know if they have gotten back up there to determining the winner by X count. But it wouldn't surprise me if it's close to that again.
score shooting is way different than group shooting,,
Depends heavily on the range (facility) and the conditions on any given day.
I haven't seen too many matches on the new centers decided by Creedmoor... individual strings, sure. Daily matches... pretty rare. At least for FTR.
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I haven't seen too many matches on the new centers decided by Creedmoor... individual strings, sure. Daily matches... pretty rare. At least for FTR.
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You can peruse this to see what the current records are. NRA Competitive Shooting Programs|National Records It would be interesting to see all of the cleans since the reduced target began to be used.
I am supposing that the original post was intended as a troll.
I am supposing that the original post was intended as a troll.
You fool. You call me a troll for asking a question ? I am not worried about records !!! I just want to know the truth about F Class weekly matches, the real people.
When you get back, WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MUCH ATTITUDE ??
Quoting from an article Zak Smith wrote about F-class:
"At close range, shot to shot changes in muzzle velocity won't make much difference in the point of impact. At longer distances, however, small differences in muzzle velocity translate into vertical error. For a .308 Winchester load, a 30 fps change will result in the shot hitting ten inches low at 1000 yards!"
and
"The real challenge of long-range shooting is wind estimation and tracking wind changes. The flight time for an average long-range load is about 1.4 seconds; a ten mile-per-hour cross-wind will push the bullet between five and seven feet during this time. There is no guarantee the wind conditions at the firing line are the same as they are down-range, and more often than not, the wind will change throughout the day."
In other words, you cannot simply scale-up short range precision.
"At close range, shot to shot changes in muzzle velocity won't make much difference in the point of impact. At longer distances, however, small differences in muzzle velocity translate into vertical error. For a .308 Winchester load, a 30 fps change will result in the shot hitting ten inches low at 1000 yards!"
and
"The real challenge of long-range shooting is wind estimation and tracking wind changes. The flight time for an average long-range load is about 1.4 seconds; a ten mile-per-hour cross-wind will push the bullet between five and seven feet during this time. There is no guarantee the wind conditions at the firing line are the same as they are down-range, and more often than not, the wind will change throughout the day."
In other words, you cannot simply scale-up short range precision.
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I just went and looked back over the scores for the last 2 years at our local 600 and 1,000 F class matches. I did not see a perfect score for 3 relays (may have been but I did not see one) but did see a few people who scored 200 on 1 and in some cases another relay. One of them was in the any irons class. So while it does not seem common, it's certainly possible w/ a really good shooter.
At 1000 yards, in F-TR since the change in targets in 2007 I think there have been three 200s shot at Registered matches, and all have been in the last yr or so. Phil Kelley shot the first one (200-6 I think) at Butner last yr, Mid Tompkins shot one at Camp Perry last yr (100-9 or 11 I believe), and someone shot one at Raton last yr. I have heard that there was one shot at an approved match a yr or two before Phil got his, but because it was an approved and not a registered match it didn't count for a national record, and I've been told that Jade (Down South) posted one a couple of weeks ago at a match somewhere in MS or TX.
So, in F-TR in 7 yrs of shooting on the 1MOA 10-ring at 1000 yards, to my knowledge it's been done five times. Which is why F-TR shooters think "if I do my part" is a punch line.
So, in F-TR in 7 yrs of shooting on the 1MOA 10-ring at 1000 yards, to my knowledge it's been done five times. Which is why F-TR shooters think "if I do my part" is a punch line.
At our local club which is a 600 yard range, there still hasn't been a perfect (600 point) FTR score shot....CJ Britt who is a VERY good FTR shooter holds Palo Alto's range record with a 599 30 or so X count (can't remember exactly).....Our single string range record was shot by Alton Britt (CJ's dad), a 200 17X in FTR at 600 yards, it woulda been a National record had it been a regional or state match..... We have 11-12 high masters (mid range) that made it in FTR and several masters so the quality of shooters is there and still no perfect 600 point scores.....Point being, its VERY hard to shoot a perfect score at 600 yards in FTR unless the conditions are extremely favorable which they rarely are, especially at our range.....All of our guns are 1/4 minute guns but at distance in the wind, its a whole different ball game.....At a 1000 yards it is damn near impossible to shoot a perfect 600 point score in FTR, only a handfull of people shot cleans in 1 string, much less 3 strings......I seriously doubt that it will ever be done in FTR at 1000 yards......F-Open is a different story, much easier to shoot higher scores, perfect 600 point match scores happen pretty regular with this group of shooters (600 yard midrange).....The range record here for Open is 600 46X.....The sling shooters do it as well, don't remember the range record for slingers at the moment.
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jhuskeys HardRock range is a simple course. 5 rds each at 600-800-900 and 1K total time allowed 20 minutes. No sighters or wind flags, MOA scores 10 points, 2moa scores 5 points. Anything greater than 2 moa gets you the L-OO-K! Very easy to do, moa,...simple, piece of cake, until you have to do it. No one that has ever shot H/R, has ever cleaned it, no one. The list is very, very long with many of the top names. Some of the "Names", and many that hold a/the coveted title have came up short and many way short. Best score that has ever been shot was done with a,................................wait for it,...............................223, why because that class shoots early before mother gets fully awake. Do not believe what you see on the net, take in a match and like everyone that has ever or will ever shoot HardRock be sure to bring your excuse book, and take notes to use at other shoots later. Sighters, I'm ready for score now, is only about a style of shooting, and that is the problem many have to/can't understand. Not everyone shoots HP, F class, 3 gun, or the theme this sight was started on.
Like David Tubbs once said on here, wallet groups are nice,...I'll add but how many times a day can you do that? There are some of us that are more impressed by a guy that does a LR tactical match that has a 50% or better first rd hit percentage and a 100% 2rd.
Much B/S in/on the internet shooting world. When the shooter and weapon have to preform their internet stated ability's, most of the time the excuse book is being added to or applied.
Some very, very, good shooters (and one guy I'm proud to call my side kick who is known in many circles,) have shot zeros at H/R,... he was all tore up, but like I told him, there are those who have shot a zero, then there is the rest of the world who are going to.
Like David Tubbs once said on here, wallet groups are nice,...I'll add but how many times a day can you do that? There are some of us that are more impressed by a guy that does a LR tactical match that has a 50% or better first rd hit percentage and a 100% 2rd.
Much B/S in/on the internet shooting world. When the shooter and weapon have to preform their internet stated ability's, most of the time the excuse book is being added to or applied.
Some very, very, good shooters (and one guy I'm proud to call my side kick who is known in many circles,) have shot zeros at H/R,... he was all tore up, but like I told him, there are those who have shot a zero, then there is the rest of the world who are going to.
I've seen perfect scores shot at 600. I've been shooting for a little over a year, and my scores are still in the 565-575 range shooting FTR . The winds where we shoot get ferocious after the first string. I've shot 98's on the first string, then it goes to hell. The people shooting a clean target/ high X count , have their shit together . Their equipment works well , and they see the small changes , that others don't see. If you are grouped with high end shooters , you'll notice when the conditions come back to what these guys want. Because they all pretty much pause and it shoot at the same time. My gunsmiths crew are great shooters .
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I almost pulled for what I think would have been a national record today. I didn't get the exact X count at the end, and I didn't know the shooter; shooting at the Oak Ridge Regional in conditions that humbled us all (Nick Taylor won the match with an agg of 560, it was that bad)
Someone got on a roll, and he didn't drop a point until #19, and it barely leaked out at 2 o'clock, then he dropped the last shot a solid 9, but it was by far the highest F-TR score of the weekend. I was in the pits pulling it as fast as I could to try to keep it in the air for him to shoot. **that close**
Someone got on a roll, and he didn't drop a point until #19, and it barely leaked out at 2 o'clock, then he dropped the last shot a solid 9, but it was by far the highest F-TR score of the weekend. I was in the pits pulling it as fast as I could to try to keep it in the air for him to shoot. **that close**
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I guess it depends on what you mean by perfect score?
And at what distance?
I have had the pleasure of shooting with the very good US FTR competitor that set a NRA record at 1000yds for 1 relay. He shot a 200 with a high X count.
At the Worlds last year, 1 relay in the morning had some very good conditions and that was a rack of 75's out of a possible 75 in both F Open and FTR. Just look up the scores.
If you mean a perfect score as in ALL bullets into the X or V bull for the entire match? No.
At 900m (pretty darn close to 1000yds), Canadian F Open shooter hammered a 200-16X last season which was considered one of the highest scores (if not the highest score) ever recorded at that distance.
The issue is not the gear. There is no shortage of rifles that are an honest 1/4 min to 1/3 min at 1000yds. The issue is the shooters ability to create a firing solution that is accurate to 1MPH in FTR and 2MPH in F Open at all distances and for all shots.
Its like making Birdie Putts for every hole. Is it possible? of course, has anyone done it... NOPE.
The scores get higher every season
Jerry
And at what distance?
I have had the pleasure of shooting with the very good US FTR competitor that set a NRA record at 1000yds for 1 relay. He shot a 200 with a high X count.
At the Worlds last year, 1 relay in the morning had some very good conditions and that was a rack of 75's out of a possible 75 in both F Open and FTR. Just look up the scores.
If you mean a perfect score as in ALL bullets into the X or V bull for the entire match? No.
At 900m (pretty darn close to 1000yds), Canadian F Open shooter hammered a 200-16X last season which was considered one of the highest scores (if not the highest score) ever recorded at that distance.
The issue is not the gear. There is no shortage of rifles that are an honest 1/4 min to 1/3 min at 1000yds. The issue is the shooters ability to create a firing solution that is accurate to 1MPH in FTR and 2MPH in F Open at all distances and for all shots.
Its like making Birdie Putts for every hole. Is it possible? of course, has anyone done it... NOPE.
The scores get higher every season
Jerry
Excellent analogy. I shoot Open and have cleaned every distance except 1K but doing it on every relay is very, very, very difficult.
As Frank mentioned, a few years after F-Class took hold shooters began to clean every relay and matches were decided on X-count.
The smaller target put an end to that and we've been trying to catch up ever since.
I think that eventually there'll be separate target centers for 800, 900 and 1K rather than share the same target for those distances,
(a holdover from Highpower Palma) as that X ring looks pretty big at 800!
At my home 1000 yard range, (Camp Pendelton) the wind is the deciding factor, and I have never seen a clean for 3 strings, one string maybe and an Open shooter at that, but rare as a hends tooth? By the 3rd relay in the summer the X ring is just a blurr, due to mirage. Most great scores are the first round before the wind picks up. I am humbled everytime out and only dream of shooting on a range that has a fixed steady wind condtion. My scores hover in the high 180, looking to break the 190 consistantly.
Diego
Diego
I cleaned 800 and 900 on the same day once shooting a Palma format (F-TR), didn't come close at 1000. The difference in 800 and 1000 with a 308 is just hard to understand.
Totally agree, when we were in Phoenix at the Bergers I saw Leatha Tampke burn up the 800 yard target in FTR on the first day of the match in the Palma format......I shot 149/150 8X and thought i was shooting well even though i made a bonehead wind call and dropped one when i shoulda cleaned it, she shot a 150/150 13 X on the same relay.....lol.....When we all backed up to 1000 those scores went to crap quick like and in a hurry.......lol
Why I really appreciate the US Nationals format of all 1000yds. Yes, it is tough. And for me, that is the whole point. Even with gentle conditions, you have to be on your toes and have great working gear.
Add in some gusty air, you are peddling really fast. When you see a good score at 1000yds on a windy relay, you know you are seeing someone shooting very well.. not just being a good trigger puller.
To me, F class is about reading the wind. Getting better each time I hit the mound but it is a lifelong learning experience.
Again, the whole point for me.
Jerry
Add in some gusty air, you are peddling really fast. When you see a good score at 1000yds on a windy relay, you know you are seeing someone shooting very well.. not just being a good trigger puller.
To me, F class is about reading the wind. Getting better each time I hit the mound but it is a lifelong learning experience.
Again, the whole point for me.
Jerry
FWIW - a "perfect" score would be equal to [or greater than] 60X for a 3x20 match. Big difference between a "perfect score" and a "clean", which simply means no points dropped with any number of Xs.
One of the matches we shoot here every month is a 300 yd "Reduced Palma". It's really not a Palma match, but I believe it's called that simply because it uses the 3x15 format with the MR-63FC reduced target center. In any case, if you drop more than one or two points and shoot less that 28-30 Xs, you're not going to win. One of our shooters, whom is a top level F-Open shooter, has shot 450s (cleans) with 30-40 Xs in this match on a few occasions with a 6BR, but he is the only one to shoot a clean for the entire match. I have shot 449s with ~30Xs at this match on a few occasions, but never a clean for all 3 matches.
The main point being, it is very difficult to shoot cleans, whether it's at 300 yd, 600 yd, or especially at 1000 yd. The degree of difficulty goes up exponentially as the distance increases. Top F-Open shooters will occasionally shoot a clean for a single 20-shot match, but not for all 3. As XTR mentioned above, cleans are extremely rare at 1000 yd in F-TR. Anyone that shoots F-Class matches knows this and probably smiles when they read in online shooting forums how someone's gun shoots sub-half MOA "all day long". Putting 15 or 20 shots consistently into less than 1 MOA is not an easy thing to do, even at 300 yd. At 600 to 1000 yd, it's much, much harder.
One of the matches we shoot here every month is a 300 yd "Reduced Palma". It's really not a Palma match, but I believe it's called that simply because it uses the 3x15 format with the MR-63FC reduced target center. In any case, if you drop more than one or two points and shoot less that 28-30 Xs, you're not going to win. One of our shooters, whom is a top level F-Open shooter, has shot 450s (cleans) with 30-40 Xs in this match on a few occasions with a 6BR, but he is the only one to shoot a clean for the entire match. I have shot 449s with ~30Xs at this match on a few occasions, but never a clean for all 3 matches.
The main point being, it is very difficult to shoot cleans, whether it's at 300 yd, 600 yd, or especially at 1000 yd. The degree of difficulty goes up exponentially as the distance increases. Top F-Open shooters will occasionally shoot a clean for a single 20-shot match, but not for all 3. As XTR mentioned above, cleans are extremely rare at 1000 yd in F-TR. Anyone that shoots F-Class matches knows this and probably smiles when they read in online shooting forums how someone's gun shoots sub-half MOA "all day long". Putting 15 or 20 shots consistently into less than 1 MOA is not an easy thing to do, even at 300 yd. At 600 to 1000 yd, it's much, much harder.
I agree. The whole point for me is to learn to see the subtleties in the wind; that is why I shoot FT/R. And +1 to the gent above who noted the difference between 800 and 1,000 with .308. It is huge, and I like it that way.
Since the target change (admittedly before my time), has anyone made HM in FT/R? I can't help but note that Jim Crofts, Jeff Rorer, Phil Kelley, and Nik Taylor are all rated MA on the long range scoresheets I have. There are plenty of HM in FO, in sling and coat, and in Any/Any. But none in FT/R.
Conditions drive the ability to shoot clean at Long Range, and especially in FT/R. Shooting relay 1 first thing in the morning, before the wind has gotten up, is a big factor here. This is of course why national matches are shot over many days, with relays rotating shooting first. But, the conditions are the conditions, and everyone knows it. For me it's not about shooting clean but about making wind calls and shooting consistently, and about shooting as well as or better than everyone else in the conditions, whatever they may be.
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I don't know that anyone has, and since the NRA only started issuing F-class classifications when the new targets were issued, there would not be any pre-existing HMs.
On the other hand, reading postings on the Internet, at this site and others, there is a multitude of keyboard kompetitors who would be HM right away with their rifles that shoot sub-MOA, all day long, to 1000 yards.
I just barely made it to Master in LR F-TR, all at 1000 yards and I just don't see how it's possible to get to HM and not win the lottery on the same day.
On the other hand, reading postings on the Internet, at this site and others, there is a multitude of keyboard kompetitors who would be HM right away with their rifles that shoot sub-MOA, all day long, to 1000 yards.
I just barely made it to Master in LR F-TR, all at 1000 yards and I just don't see how it's possible to get to HM and not win the lottery on the same day.
F/TR shooters are dealing with about 90" of wind drift/10 mph wind. Sometimes, more than 90". F/O shooters can get that wind drift down to about 60-65", depending on cartridge and barrel length. Then, due to spin drift and coriolis, those numbers are different in a left wind versus a right wind, which adds confusion. F/TR High Master is going to be a tough road. A 1 mph wind switching from right to left changes impact for F/O by 11", but makes a 17" change for the F/TR shooters.
Jim
Jim
Coriolis and Spin Drift, LOL
Danny Biggs made it to HM in F-TR before he went to F Open (I made a comment similar to yours on Accurate Shooter and he corrected me a while back). I know of no others
Our local club matches are organized mainly along F Class rules, with the addition of a 3rd and 4th scoring class permitting F Open and F T/R shot from benches, for us older and more feeble shooters.
Our targets use the same MOA equivalent ring sizes, but are scored according to the older 5/V system. A 'possible' for 40 scored rounds would be a 200/40V.
It is now shot at 250yd, and was once done at 200. Other clubs nearby have adopted the concept for distances of 180yd and 300.
There have been a small handful of 200's but no 200/40V's at our club.
Yet...
Greg
I never forgave the NRA for the target change.
I believe it isolated F Class into a unique discipline, and that this outcome was intentional.
Our targets use the same MOA equivalent ring sizes, but are scored according to the older 5/V system. A 'possible' for 40 scored rounds would be a 200/40V.
It is now shot at 250yd, and was once done at 200. Other clubs nearby have adopted the concept for distances of 180yd and 300.
There have been a small handful of 200's but no 200/40V's at our club.
Yet...
Greg
I never forgave the NRA for the target change.
I believe it isolated F Class into a unique discipline, and that this outcome was intentional.
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Well, just so you know. The MR-63 and MR63FC are not MOA ring sizes; they are actually a little smaller (95%.) The F-class X-ring is 1.42 inch, not the 1.50 that you would expect and the 10-ring is 2.85, not 3.00 and so on down the line. Your V-ring should be 1.19 inch in diameter and the 10-ring should be 2.37 inches in diameter.
Saw Alan Warners wife shoot 2 back to back 200-20x F-class at Forbes----BEFORE the target size change. Even the two sighters were Xs. Probably why they changed the targets. I'm only Expert class on the small targets.
In the national championships in Oak Ridge in 2005 I think it was Frank Beckman shot a 200-23, and yes scores like that are why the targets got changed.
We had a regional match yesterday (mid-range 600 yard) that had really good conditions for shooting high scores. The winner in F-open shot a 600-47X (19X on his second string of fire). The other 2 people tied with him in score going into the third match had X-counts of 44 and 43! Both of them dropped 2 points on the third match and didn't even get a sniff at awards because two other guys shot 599's. Yikes! All of those shooters are HM classified, but I could only manage a second place finish in master with a 595-40X.
Open is a whole different game from TR. Shooting higher BC bullets at the same velocities that TR shooters get from 308s you end up with about 60% of the wind drift. Even at 600 yards shooting a clean in TR is not common, yes, they happen, but it only takes a little bobble and you still drop a point.
That said, dayum, that is some good shooting. What was the spindle count? ('cause I'm betting that there were a lot of hit spindles.)
That said, dayum, that is some good shooting. What was the spindle count? ('cause I'm betting that there were a lot of hit spindles.)
Good shooting JBD, on a day when the conditions are just about perfect you can't afford to make any mistakes with the quality of shooters and equipment nowdays.....One bad shot can cost the match, especially in F Open.....I'm not sure what the Open record is at 600 but i would think 600 47X would be close if not the record......Last year at our club Brian Bowling shot a 600 46X @ 600 in Open and the crazy part about it was that it was windy that day, still can't figure out how he shot that well that day as everyone else was dropping points.
There were quite a few spotters that were shot. One of our club members (owns Contour Mold) makes a spotter that I have seen up to 10 hits on without exploding. Some kind of softer/different plastic that doesn't shatter when it gets hit. We don't have nearly as much shrapnel flying around in the pits anymore. I was pulling for a lady HM yesterday that shot a 200-16X on her second match. She hit that spotter 7 times before it had a direct hit on the spindle and had to be replaced. let me know if you are interested in finding out about the ones we use.
Thanks DS...my first match put me out of the running in a hurry. After that I settled down and shot a 199 and 200 with mid teen X counts on both strings. The 200-19X ties the national record set by Bob Sebold at 600 yards. I'm not sure what the record is for a 3 match ag. We were supposed to shoot 4 matches yesterday, but the t-storms that rolled through delayed us long enough to only get in 3. It was a good day for shooting high scores if you were looking to move up in classification.
The NRA does not keep agg. records for 3x600 or 3x1000.
Didn't know that, i learn something everyday.....I figured they did.
Scouring the Hide, one can find a few discussions about cant error. With the humble load that I shoot to 1000, JBM says a 1/2 degree cant is 3.1 inches. So I can be perfectly zeroed in a dead calm wind and shoot just outside the 10 ring to the left and follow that up with just outside the 10 ring to the right. All by just a bit more than 1/2 of a degree of tilt one way then the other. Serious marksmanship required to do well. At 300 yards it's only a 0.4" wobble.
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Last month at our local match, a 599 was shot at 600. x count was in the 30's I think. I'm told it was damn near a 600. The match winner is usually shooting somewhere in the mid-590's for Open, or the high-580's for TR. But 200's, while somwehat rare, are not all that special.
Was that in Open or FTR (599)?
Open.
There is a 200 shot at just about every match around here, allot of times in Tr. I've seen a couple 600 with mid 40's on the x count. Talked to a fella at a match last Saturday that shot a 600 45x in Memphis this year and got beat. I need to take up a different hobby.
Thats a good score but 600s are shot pretty regular around here in Open at 600 yards as Brad just mentioned.....Our range record is 600 46X in Open and 599 30 something in FTR.....The winners at our monthly registered matches in Open are usually no less than 596-597 with over 30 Xs and 600s happen pretty regular......In FTR 590s are the norm to win unless the conditions are really bad, In the last match, i shot 592 23X in FTR and was 3 points behind the highest FTR score (595 24X)......Over the last two years i've seen the scores go up on average almost every match, the FTR shooters aint that far behind the Open guys nowdays compared to a couple years ago.
I don't think there is a tremendous difference between TR and open at 600. Good shooters will shoot in the mid-high 590's with either rifle. Just passing on a data point from our club.
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Are these NRA sanctioned matches or just a club match? I agree on FTR shooters catching up with the open guys. The guy that won FTR at the regional last weekend shot a 200-14X on his first relay and another HM shot a 200-12X on the next relay. Some of the "bipods" these guys are using make it a lot easier than my old Harris and Atlas bipods. You still have to make good ammo and be able to make good wind calls though. One guy had a SEB joypod at the match...that is a LIGHT, slick unit!
Yes, registered matches.....Its hard to win a match nowdays, the level of competition is very high and the equipment being used is top notch......We have 11 or 12 high masters in FTR that shoot at our club that made high master in FTR not Open and all shot at 600 yards not 300 or 500......200 point strings are not uncommon in FTR, i watched Alton Britt shoot a 200 17X in FTR a few months ago, we got to see the target after he shot it and it was unbeleivable how tight of a group he shot at 600 yards, his rifle is a absolute hammer and he knows how to steer it.....lol.....I just wish we had a 1000 yard range close by, we have to travel to Texas or Mississippi/Tennessee to shoot 1000 yard matches.
As for bipods, I use a Flex bipod but you see pretty much all the other brands made on the line here with the Sinclair F class bipod being the most used from what i can tell.....I've yet to see anyone here use the SEB joystick bipod but i saw a couple in Phoenix when i was there......Jim Murphy was using one and he shot well with it, with that being said, Jim would shoot well with anything hooked to his gun, hes a great shooter.......lol.......I think i saw Monte using one in Phoenix as well if i remember correctly, maybe he will chime in on it.
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