FAL 308 vs AR15 in 308 - how do they stack up?

[JG26_Irish]

I have been intrigued by the recent appearance of AR15 platform rifles chambered for 308 NATO. I have not had the chance to play with one of them yet but they remind me of the old Armalite AR10 rifles. I have a nice match grade FAL in 308 and while it is old school and heavy, it is a very nice shooter and I like the sleek design and smooth action. I have a detachable scope mount dust cover that enables me to switch from open iron sights to scope very quickly without changing zero. Currently it has a cheap 3-9X Bushnell scope on it but for what I was doing, it was adequate.

I always thought that my AR15/M16 rifles possessed superior human engineering for quick accurate deployment, rapid 2nd shot capability. Recoil is light enough that for shots inside of 50yds, you only need to acquire the tgt and then pull the trigger twice as fast as possible to enable two center mass hits about 2-3" apart. Very effective. I also think the AR style gas operated system is dirty and requires a high degree of care in cleaning to keep it 100% reliable. In the few cases where I fired one of them a lot and failed to immediately clean it and then left it stored for a few weeks or months, I have had issues with the bolt getting stuck and the action refusing to open. I had to resort to slipping a small screwdriver in front of the bolt carrier to apply leverage to get it open. Accuracy with the 5.56mm ammo is good to excellent at moderate range. The total package is light in weight and easy to carry long distance. Overall, I rate these rifles a 8 out of 10. If there is a weakness, it would be on penetration and long range energy retention.

The FAL on the other hand is heavy. At approximately 10lbs, it is a chore to lug it around all day. Recoil while not violent, is substantial enough to require complete re-acquisition of the target before the 2nd shot if you expect any hope of hitting the same tgt twice. The upside is that really, how many times do you have to hit the same tgt twice with a 308, if the first hit is well placed? When you compare the AR15 in 223 to the 308, while the AR mags hold 30rds, you may as well plan on shooting each tgt twice with it, meaning you will have to reload after every 15 tgts, where the 308 loaded with 20rd mags could expect to engage 20 tgts before a reload is required. Apples & oranges yes? The FAL is capable of <1" groups at 100yds with the iron sights when fired from a bench or other solid, stable rest and about 1/2" groups with the scope and match grade ammo at the same distance. Most of the AR's I have shot are lucky to group inside 2" at the same distance (they were all the original slender Colt bbl). I have only shot one with a match grade bbl and it was slightly better but it was also new and still getting properly sighted and tuned for its loads. I have one open sight Frankford Arsenal rifle that did group <1/2" once from sand bags at 100yds using match grade varmint ammo. That was extraordinary.

Accuracy of the FAL is on par with a National Match M1A or H&K 91 and its action is smoother than either. The slick "Clickety-Clack" of the FAL action is as good as any semi-auto rifle I have ever seen. The gas piston operation is fully adjustable for ammo types and stays relatively clean for as long as you need to shoot it. Field striping and cleaning is simple, fast and easy. There are no gas rings to wear out or replace and with the exception of firing pins, I have never had to ever replace a part. I think the action and accuracy both rate a 10 but the human engineering is perhaps slightly less friendly than the AR. This only because the safety is slightly slower to take off and the mag release which is similar to the AK47 is slower to deploy. Nit picking? Yes. Still, If you are changing mags in the dark under pressure, you appreciate the simplicity of the AR15 design and the ability to drop a mag with one hand while retrieving and inserting the next one with the other hand. Sometimes those seconds count.

My main questions are: When the AR15 is chambered for the 308, what type of mags are required? and how does the recoil recovery compare to the FAL? Are all of them gas guns or is it also offered with a gas/piston actuation? (LWRC appears to have a gas/piston option) What sort of practical accuracy are the AR15 - 308 guns capable of? Finally, the ones I have seen are selling for $1300-2500. Is that worth the price when other 308's may be had for the same or less?

Irish

 

[ORD]

There is no such thing as an AR-15 in .308/7.62x51. They are large-frame ARs, using completely different receivers, etc., although the platforms do share some commonality of small parts (like triggers, etc.)/accessories/etc., and of course the commonality of functions/features akin to the AR-15. There are dozens of different large-frame AR platform rifle, including two basic "patterns" including the Armalite/AR-10 pattern and the DPMS/KAC pattern (and to a far lesser extent, other one-offs such as the RRA LAR-8 which go completely off the reservation, etc.).

Methods of operation vary from your basic direct impingement (DI) gas system found on the basic AR-15/M4 style rifles to a variety of different piston operated systems. Multiple companies offer piston setups, including LWRC, POF, etc. The more common operating system is still DI by an overwhelming margin.

As for magazines, the Armalite AR-10B rifles use Armalite pattern magazines (5-, 10-, 15-, 20- and 25-round capacities) which were originally based on the M14/M1A magazines modified by Armalite during the first AWB to get around the 10-round mag limitations established under the ban (Gen I mags). Since the expiration of the AWB (at least for those not living behind enemy lines), Armalite has manufactured their own steel mags for their AR-10B rifles (Gen II mags). They also now, in recent years, have offered the AR-10A series rifle which use the more plentiful and aftermarket-supported DPMS-pattern magazines. The DPMS/KAC pattern rifles use DPMS factory, KAC factory, Magpul LR/SR PMAGs in .308/7.62, C-Products, ASC, soon Lancer Systems, etc. magazines, in like capacity offerings as the Armalite pattern.

Practical accuracy of the large-frame ARs is wholly dependent on the quality of the components used to build/assemble the rifles (mostly quality barrel, trigger, free-float handguard/rail, and the care with which the same are put together). There are large-frame platforms capable, in the right hands with proper ammunition, of producing repeatable ~1/2MOA levels of accuracy (i.e. - the GAP-10 and JP LRP series rifles to name a few). Other, off-the-rack rifles such as the Armalite AR-10T and SASS series rifles, as well as the DPMS LRT and SASS rifles are easily capable of consistent sub-MOA accuracy (again...just naming a few as representative examples). Again...all based on the shooter doing their part in the equation. If you are getting consistent sub-MOA (much less consistent 1/2MOA) accuracy from any FAL ("match"/"target" model or otherwise), then I'd be buying up Powerball tickets if I were you and retiring somewhere nice with a private range, game preserve, etc.!

As for reliability...again...if properly maintained, lubricated, and built, large-frame ARs can be phenomenally reliable even under adverse conditions.

You mentioned the "heavy" FAL...if you have a close look at the large-frame AR spec sheets for 99% of the rifles out there, you'll quickly realize that ~10lbs and up is by far the rule and not the exception. Short of running a shorter, lighter barreled (<18"...likely 16") large-frame AR, with an emphasis on using the lightest weight components available, it is damned difficult to get one fully outfitted with optics, empty mag, etc., without hitting the ~10lb mark.

Finally, with respect to recoil, the large-frame ARs (like their small-framed cousins) are infinitely adjustable. You can finely tune the gas system in a variety of ways, as well as carefully choosing the components that go into the build from the get go (low mass operating system, etc.), and get the recoil down to almost nothing (subjectively speaking of course as recoil isn't black and white for everyone) even with heavier loads. You still have to drive the rifle appropriately to ensure max accuracy, keeping on the rifle all the way throughout the stages of recoil, etc., etc., etc., etc., but recoil on large-frame ARs, at least for me, isn't much of an issue.

 

[KYbulldog]

I'll just add a couple of curious worms to this opened can..

If you happen to own or plan to own an M1A/M14 and an AR10(armalite) then you likely wont need different mags to feed em anymore. Armalite is offering, on a test basis, at this time a mod'd mag that works in both.

AR10/M1A 20R DUAL PURPOSE MAG ARMALITE TYPE 1 MAGAZINE

 

[nfoley]

I have an FAL by DSA which I really like a lot, but compared with the POF and Larue OBR (I have shot beside it) it is not in the same ballpark with regards to accuracy. I get about 2-2.5 MOA with the FAL, sometimes worse. And I have tried hard to get better than that but it just hasn't happened to date.

The AR10 308s, on the other hand, have been much more accurate. I have had times when both the POF and OBR were as accurate as any bolt gun I have shot. In particular the OBR was very easy to group well, and it was rare that I couldn't hold moa with that rifle. But there are always those days I end up scratching my head wondering how and why I can't seem to shoot worth a darn.

As far as weight and recoil of the rifles compared, I would say the difference was minimal. Having adjusted the FAL's gas system to my loads it is pleasant to shoot. But so are the AR10s. No complaints either way. I don't expect a gas operated 308 to be especially light, and the three I have tried weren't. As mentioned above, with optics they all seem to be around 10lbs.

One other factor I will mention is the ability of the AR10s to be shot suppressed. I really prefer shooting suppressed as much as I can, and the AR10 wins here. From my (limited) research, it appears the FAL platform is less than ideal for shooting suppressed. If I am incorrect I would appreciate input from others here on this.

Just curious, did you do something to get MOA accuracy out of your FAL? In the limited research I have done I came to the conclusion 2-3 MOA is really all one should expect out of the FAL. I actually like the reliability of my FAL over the AR10s I have shot, just wish it were a bit more accurate.

 

[Thumper580]

The AR10 style rifles will shoot better than the FAL family of rifles. The FAL is referred to as MAN MOA accuracy.... All steel battle rifle that is extremely robust and dependable. Was never built to be a target rifle. I love the FAL, but the AR10 rifles are easier to get very good accuracy out of. Many more suppliers of parts for them. Good luck.

 

[Steelhead]

Since you have a FAL already and really like it, I would assume that you have a bunch of FAL magazines. In that case, you should look at the Rock River Arms LAR-8. It uses FAL magazines, both inch and metric pattern. I have one of the 26" Varmint models and it is very accurate.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Since you have a FAL already and really like it, I would assume that you have a bunch of FAL magazines. In that case, you should look at the Rock River Arms LAR-8. It uses FAL magazines, both inch and metric pattern. I have one of the 26" Varmint models and it is very accurate.

View attachment 31662

Thanks to all for the input so far. Especially the pros and cons of the different AR platforms. Steelhead, your comment has been the most valuable so far. I was looking at a Rock River LAR-8 this weekend at a show, but did not learn that it uses FAL mags. Yes, I have a ton of them all metric pattern and this would be a huge selling point for me, although I am drawn to the LWRC guns as they just ooze quality. Also, thank you for posting the example tgt from the LAR-8. What sights & ammo were used in that group? Regardless, that is good shooting. Pics like that speak volumes. Thanks!

Irish

 

[Steelhead]

Thanks to all for the input so far. Especially the pros and cons of the different AR platforms. Steelhead, your comment has been the most valuable so far. I was looking at a Rock River LAR-8 this weekend at a show, but did not learn that it uses FAL mags. Yes, I have a ton of them all metric pattern and this would be a huge selling point for me, although I am drawn to the LWRC guns as they just ooze quality. Also, thank you for posting the example tgt from the LAR-8. What sights & ammo were used in that group? Regardless, that is good shooting. Pics like that speak volumes. Thanks!

Irish

I hear you on the LWRC's. They are nice rifles. I like GA Precision's GAP-10 and JP's myself. I have a GAP-10 in 6mm Creedmoor that is just awesome!

I use a Nightforce 5.5-22x50 on my LAR-8 Varmint. I had a 16" LAR-8 at one time, but ended up trading it for something else. It was a good rifle too and shot under MOA, but not like the Varmint model does.

The thing I like about the LAR-8 are the controls. They are similar to a FAL, in the bolt release area. I can release the bolt with my trigger finger by just pressing down on the ambidextrous bolt catch. It also has magazine release buttons on both sides too.

The LAR-8 has a 1-10" twist, so it works well with heavier bullets. I've been using 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tips for these groups. I've been wanting to find a load that uses a lighter bullet, such as a 155 gr, but I haven't had the time lately.

Here's another group I shot with it, although this is only 5 rounds. The other target I posted earlier was 10 rounds, including the cold bore shot:

 

[JG26_Irish]

FAL vs LAR

Thanks for all the info. I too am a big fan of the Nosler Ballistic Tips and Sierra HP's for precision 308 loads. I have only worked with the 150g and 165g bullets. 45g of W748 worked well with the 165g BT. For years I hunted with this load and it never failed to produce a one shot instant stop. Never required a follow up shot, ever. After about 10yrs of steady use, I swapped to 270 Win for most hunting of larger game and retired the 308 to tgt use only.

Irish

 

[slothlacrosse]

I have been intrigued by the recent appearance of AR15 platform rifles chambered for 308 NATO.

The FN FAL design is only 5 or 6 years older than the AR10.

The FAL is capable of <1" groups at 100yds with the iron sights when fired from a bench or other solid, stable rest and about 1/2" groups with the scope and match grade ammo at the same distance. Most of the AR's I have shot are lucky to group inside 2" at the same distance (they were all the original slender Colt bbl). I have only shot one with a match grade bbl and it was slightly better but it was also new and still getting properly sighted and tuned for its loads. I have one open sight Frankford Arsenal rifle that did group <1/2" once from sand bags at 100yds using match grade varmint ammo. That was extraordinary.

Accuracy of the FAL is on par with a National Match M1A or H&K 91 and its action is smoother than either.

What FAL are you shooting? Capable of 1/2 MOA with a scope? C'mon man. There aren't many off the shelf bolt guns that will shoot 1/2 MOA. So I'm a little skeptical that you have an FAL that shoots as well as a custom bolt gun. I'm not saying it's not possible... just that it's not likely.

And I wouldn't put the FAL in the same league as an M1A NM when it comes to accuracy. The comparison to an HK91 is fair. But neither the FAL or the HK91 are close to the same league as the M1A NM.

 

[Scoby]

The FAL is capable of <1" groups at 100yds with the iron sights when fired from a bench or other solid, stable rest and about 1/2" groups with the scope and match grade ammo at the same distance.
Irish

If I had a FAL that would do this I'd hold on to it like grim death. If it's true.
Never seen one come close to that.
One in a million man. One in a million.

 

[The Gump]

I have been intrigued by the recent appearance of AR15 platform rifles chambered for 308 NATO. I have not had the chance to play with one of them yet but they remind me of the old Armalite AR10 rifles. I have a nice match grade FAL in 308 and while it is old school and heavy, it is a very nice shooter and I like the sleek design and smooth action. I have a detachable scope mount dust cover that enables me to switch from open iron sights to scope very quickly without changing zero. Currently it has a cheap 3-9X Bushnell scope on it but for what I was doing, it was adequate.

I always thought that my AR15/M16 rifles possessed superior human engineering for quick accurate deployment, rapid 2nd shot capability. Recoil is light enough that for shots inside of 50yds, you only need to acquire the tgt and then pull the trigger twice as fast as possible to enable two center mass hits about 2-3" apart. Very effective. I also think the AR style gas operated system is dirty and requires a high degree of care in cleaning to keep it 100% reliable. In the few cases where I fired one of them a lot and failed to immediately clean it and then left it stored for a few weeks or months, I have had issues with the bolt getting stuck and the action refusing to open. I had to resort to slipping a small screwdriver in front of the bolt carrier to apply leverage to get it open. Accuracy with the 5.56mm ammo is good to excellent at moderate range. The total package is light in weight and easy to carry long distance. Overall, I rate these rifles a 8 out of 10. If there is a weakness, it would be on penetration and long range energy retention.

The FAL on the other hand is heavy. At approximately 10lbs, it is a chore to lug it around all day. Recoil while not violent, is substantial enough to require complete re-acquisition of the target before the 2nd shot if you expect any hope of hitting the same tgt twice. The upside is that really, how many times do you have to hit the same tgt twice with a 308, if the first hit is well placed? When you compare the AR15 in 223 to the 308, while the AR mags hold 30rds, you may as well plan on shooting each tgt twice with it, meaning you will have to reload after every 15 tgts, where the 308 loaded with 20rd mags could expect to engage 20 tgts before a reload is required. Apples & oranges yes? The FAL is capable of <1" groups at 100yds with the iron sights when fired from a bench or other solid, stable rest and about 1/2" groups with the scope and match grade ammo at the same distance. Most of the AR's I have shot are lucky to group inside 2" at the same distance (they were all the original slender Colt bbl). I have only shot one with a match grade bbl and it was slightly better but it was also new and still getting properly sighted and tuned for its loads. I have one open sight Frankford Arsenal rifle that did group <1/2" once from sand bags at 100yds using match grade varmint ammo. That was extraordinary.

Accuracy of the FAL is on par with a National Match M1A or H&K 91 and its action is smoother than either. The slick "Clickety-Clack" of the FAL action is as good as any semi-auto rifle I have ever seen. The gas piston operation is fully adjustable for ammo types and stays relatively clean for as long as you need to shoot it. Field striping and cleaning is simple, fast and easy. There are no gas rings to wear out or replace and with the exception of firing pins, I have never had to ever replace a part. I think the action and accuracy both rate a 10 but the human engineering is perhaps slightly less friendly than the AR. This only because the safety is slightly slower to take off and the mag release which is similar to the AK47 is slower to deploy. Nit picking? Yes. Still, If you are changing mags in the dark under pressure, you appreciate the simplicity of the AR15 design and the ability to drop a mag with one hand while retrieving and inserting the next one with the other hand. Sometimes those seconds count.

My main questions are: When the AR15 is chambered for the 308, what type of mags are required? and how does the recoil recovery compare to the FAL? Are all of them gas guns or is it also offered with a gas/piston actuation? (LWRC appears to have a gas/piston option) What sort of practical accuracy are the AR15 - 308 guns capable of? Finally, the ones I have seen are selling for $1300-2500. Is that worth the price when other 308's may be had for the same or less?

Irish

OK. Seriously man.? Are you high?

Have you shot an AR for thousands of rounds without cleaning it? What was the failure rate?

Don't get me wrong. I like the FAL but 1/2"? Come on man!

I think you have things backwards.

 

[JG26_Irish]

The FN FAL design is only 5 or 6 years older than the AR10.

What FAL are you shooting? Capable of 1/2 MOA with a scope?

And I wouldn't put the FAL in the same league as an M1A NM when it comes to accuracy. The comparison to an HK91 is fair. But neither the FAL or the HK91 are close to the same league as the M1A NM.

Thanks for the comments and input. Yeah, I knew about the AR10, even referenced it in the posts. I was asking about the new large AR's like the LAR-8 which are a relatively new market entry and which seem to have some nice features. Since I have never had the chance to try one of them, I was seeking input from those who have.

As for which FAL I have? It is one of the early Pre-ban guns that was made as a complete weapon with matching parts and match bbl. The receiver is stamped "Match". I dunno why, or if it is different from the other receivers. Its fit and finish and the precision of the internal action components are the best I have seen on any semi-auto. I know that a huge number of FAL's out there were made from spare parts or poorly fit parts and would be lucky to shoot 2" groups. I have handled other FAL's that did not have the smooth action or the accuracy that mine has. I am not looking to part with it.

If my original post implied that it would shoot better than a off the shelf bolt gun, I did not mean to. A good bit of getting the best accuracy out of any rifle is load development. I spent a lot of time on this many years ago. But my best bolt guns still shoot groups that are half again smaller than the FAL's best. Like I said, it shoots 1" off a bench and sometimes better with open sights. About 1/2" with the scope. This is assuming I am using very good ammo. I would add a couple of details that may or may not help those who doubt this. I rarely shoot it from a bench for groups. Never ever shot a 10 shot group with it, and only rarely shoot 5 shot groups. Those small groups that I was referring to were mostly only 3 shots. That is a lot easier to achieve than the 5 and 10 shot groups that some of the guys posted. I have had this gun for about 25 yrs and have only shot it about 3 times in the last 10yrs. Next time I take it to the range, I will see if I can shoot a few groups for you.

I know that my FAL may be a better shooter than most, but I did not post this to debate the accuracy potential of the FAL (it is what it is). It is old school out dated and mostly obsolete. What I was looking for is inputs on the potential of the new large AR's using the FAL as the measuring stick, since I was familiar with it. So far some of the replies have been very useful.

1.) Confirmed that the LAR's are just as heavy as the FAL (no surprise)
2.) At least one uses standard FAL mags which is a nice feature
3.) Some of the 308 cal AR's are exceptionally accurate which is a requirement for me.
4.) Some are gas guns like the original AR and some are gas piston like the FAL. I would like to learn more about which are gas-piston. I like that better.
5.) Some offer enhanced or improved controls - good

I did not mean to imply that my gas operated Colt and Frankford Arsenal AR15 and M16 are unreliable. Far from it. I have had only a handful of failures and they were almost all failure to return fully into battery and a quick push of the FA had them running again. In the case of the MG, it has shot thousands of rounds. Mostly in full auto. I do clean them religiously, but as you guys know, they get really dirty, really fast. The crud usually is soft while it is warm, so it is not an issue, but once it cools it gets harder and so, I clean after every shooting session now. I replace the gas rings when they begin to look worn or if one breaks (rare). They are very reliable. I would choose either of them over the FAL for any needs inside 100-150yds. They handle well, shoot well and are fast. If I need long range accuracy, I probably would not choose the FAL for that either. A scoped bolt action would be a better choice for 200+ distances. Just my opinion. The 308 semi-auto rifles are useful in that they are all rounders, capable of faster follow up shots then a bolt action but still have good accuracy and more power than the 223 rifles.

Irish

 

[marduk185]

ive shot them all...you dream it, been there done that.
end of the day, buy an sks precision long range sniper rifle and mount a bsa mildot scope with mil/mil retical and coriolis compensator(i know where you can get one cheap) and send me all your crappy rifles that havent made you happy.
done.
do this you'll be shooting minute of billy zane out to 1600 miles, all day long, so quick your bung will pucker, and youll be hearing sweet home alabama or yolandi vi$$er songs playing in your head, before you can even say "if i do my part" brother.

 

[Steelhead]

Irish,

You may want to look at JP Enterprises LRP-07 rifles too.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Maybe instead of the SKS custom tactical package, I should trade them all for a nice AK47 pistol. Impressive muzzle blast and accurate enough to hit a 2'x2' tgt 3 out of 30rds.

I really do appreciate the serious inputs. I took a 10yr hiatus from all shooting sports outside of a little hunting due to work pressures and other conflicts of life. I only came back to it last fall and have been busy catching up with all the new things out there. Good thing about guns is they do not eat much if you do not feed em and they do hold their value well if you choose carefully.

Irish

 

[ORD]

The other thing to consider re: any large-frame AR is the relative ease of adaptability to a multitude of different roles, including heavy-weight target/bench rifles to lighter weight hunting rifles/carbines (relatively light anyway! ), as well as a whole hoard of different calibers from big bore thumpers to extended, long range calibers and everything in between. Much is lost on the venerable and proven, but yet somewhat outclassed .308/7.62x51.

While the bulk of large-frame ARs are still chambered in .308/7.62x51, the platform is easily adapted to any number of vastly superior cartridges (again...superior is a relative term...but there are chamberings for the large-frame ARs that will easily get you better range, better terminal ballistics, better performance on medium to large game animals in NA, etc., etc.). Nothing wrong with the .308 per se if you are already set up in terms of ammo, reloading components, etc., but if you've been out of the game for 10 years give or take...MUCH has changed in the semi-auto world and you may be far better served with a different caliber altogether.

By way of example, and much like the AR-15, there are a host of calibers available for chambering in the large-frame AR platform rifles, including but not limited to:

.243 Winchester
.22-250
.257 Roberts
.260 Remington
6mm Creedmoor
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 WSM
.270 WSM
7mm WSM
7mm-08 Remington
.284 Winchester
.300 WSM
.300 SAUM
.300 Savage
.325 WSM
.338-7mm Benchrest
.338 Whisper
.338 Federal
.338 RCM
.35 Remington
.358 Winchester
.358 HDH (WSSM)
.450 Marlin
.500 Phantom (think this one is DOA now, but just for reference-sake)

As for the piston operated rifles/carbines, my personal preference after many years of excellent rifles and service goes to POF for their P-308 lineup. That said, there is also the budget-minded Ruger SR-762, followed by more expensive (but arguably vastly better options) from companies like Primary Weapon Systems (PWS), Sig, and LWRC International to name just a few more.

 

[Thumper580]

How dare you hate on the the 308!! Blasphemy .......

 

[ORD]

How dare you hate on the the 308!! Blasphemy .......

Not hating at all (and I agree it IS akin to blasphemy...especially from someone like me who has more semi-auto .308/7.62 rifles than I should)...but its just the reality that there are other options out there depending on what the end user's specific needs/wants/parameters are for the rifle. The .308/7.62x51 has earned its place as the dominant chambering for large-frame ARs for VERY good reasons, including but not limited to its military/service history, its performance abilities within certain parameters, easily passing the "Two Dot" test, etc., but depending on those specific needs/wants/parameters, there are a wealth of alternatives that may vastly better meet those individual requirements than your basic .308 AR.

 

[slothlacrosse]

But my best bolt guns still shoot groups that are half again smaller than the FAL's best. Like I said, it shoots 1" off a bench and sometimes better with open sights. About 1/2" with the scope.

So here's where you're losing me. You said in your original post that you're shooting 1/2" groups with an FAL that has a 3-9x Bushnell scope mounted to a dust cover mount. You have an inexpensive but functional optic mounted to a 2 MOA on a good day rifle with a dust cover scope mount. IMHO it doesn't add up.

Now you're saying that your best bolt gun shoots groups half the size of your FAL. There aren't too many guns that can shoot that well and there are probably fewer shooters who can use them to their potential.

Maybe you're unfamiliar with shooting terminology. There is a pretty steep learning curve. But I just have a hard time believing that an FAL with a Bushnell shoots as well as you say it does.

 

[JG26_Irish]

So here's where you're losing me. You said in your original post that you're shooting 1/2" groups with an FAL that has a 3-9x Bushnell scope mounted to a dust cover mount. You have an inexpensive but functional optic mounted to a 2 MOA on a good day rifle. IMHO it doesn't add up.

Now you're saying that your best bolt gun shoots groups half the size of your FAL. There aren't too many guns that can shoot that well and there are probably fewer shooters who can use them to their potential.

Maybe you're unfamiliar with shooting terminology. There is a pretty steep learning curve. But I just have a hard time believing.

Where should I start? I know that we are all strangers here and never shot together. But, I grew up a long time ago in a time and place where a man's word, and honor, means something. We did not just learn to shoot straight and speak the truth, it was taught at an early age. I know that many men these days do not learn or understand this and all I can say is that if any here fall in that class, I am sorry. Believe, don't believe, it is all OK.

I really said the FAL shot to about 1/2" inch @100yds. I later added that it was usually 3sh groups and it is not always that good. I rarely shoot it at all and even less sit down and focus on shooting tight groups with it. And rarely measure or record them after. So this is tough. I did not record many with it and lost most over time. Looking at some of the best it was about what I say. In this post are two tgts from the FAL. Both at 100yds and both only 3-sh. I did not measure either one at the time but the smaller appears to be a bit under 1/2" and the other looks to be slightly larger than 1/2". The 1st one (from last fall with the big orange dot) was fired from a bench on bags with the iron sights. It is better than usual for this gun. I have some ammo that it really likes and they shoot well. The 2nd is so old, I cannot say for sure which sights or ammo were used. Putting any scope on a 2moa rifle will not make it shoot less than 2moa. The mount I use is far more secure and stable than it is being given credit for. Still even with the scope, I do not recall it shooting any better than the 1st pic. Also, both these are better than typical for it.

As for my better shooting bolt guns? I no longer have pics of the best group. It was lost in a PC crash. It was 0.152"c-c at 100yds with a Rem700 with 1:12twist heavy bbl in .223 loaded with custom loaded ammo just for that gun. I did attach a couple of example groups recently fired from the same weapon. The 1st at 100yds measured 0.333"c-c. If my math is right that is about 0.318moa. The 2nd group was from 200yds and measured 0.700"c-c. This was 0.334moa. Not its best but representative of this fine old rifle. The last one (the green bull) is a 22lr, Rem540XR 5shots at 50yds. Measured 0.128" center to center. Which is 0.245moa. That is the best for that gun and is also about half of what the FAL can do on a good day. Both Remington rifles are factory original except for having the factory triggers adjusted to give a good clean, relatively light, crisp trigger break. I have a few other rifles that also shoot nearly this well. A custom Mauser in 270win, and a Win mod52 rimfire. I even have a Savage 93R in 17HMR that is close to a 1/2moa on a good day. I have found that most centerfire rifles shoot only OK with factory ammo and that to get the most out of them, you really have to spend time on working up loads specific for that rifle. Rimfire is different. All you can do is try different ammo until you find one that works well. The difference between a good load and the typical ammo is about a factor of 2x. Hand me a good factory rifle with only factory loads and I am usually lucky to get it to shoot 1" groups at 100yds. To get better is usually going to require either luck or lots of time spent on load development with match grade components.

I hope this helps. I know that when I see something done by others that I cannot do, it makes it harder to find it credible. That is human nature. But there are things I cannot do. I cannot figure skate, I cannot play the piano. I am not that good of a typist. I am a fairly decent shot with a rifle. Spend the time working up good loads. Steady, repeatable technique, good breathing control, precise sight picture, careful trigger press, etc. Not all guns shoot that well. This is really off topic, since I was looking for info on the LAR's and their performance and features, not on the FAL. So, I hope we can put this to rest and get back to the topic. Like who makes good large AR platforms? and how do they perform? What features they have. I am trying to catch up.

Irish

 

[JG26_Irish]

FAL accuracy

Wow, I hate to do this but I was wrong. Please accept my apology for my mis-statement of facts. Working from memory is dangerous and once we reach a certain age it gets worse. In my original post, I made statements about the FAL's iron sight accuracy that were wrong. I was going from memory based on shooting it for a group off the bench last fall. It did shoot a nice tight group under 1" on that day, but I had been doing a lot of 50yd precision rimfire shooting and must have shot the FAL at the same distance and them remembered it incorrectly. Since the tgts were not well marked, it only helped to support the mistake. Please allow me to chalk this up to "Old Fartism". It happens to all of us eventually. I took the FAL to the range today and fired a few 5rd groups from 100yds with open iron sights. 1.5" was more like what it is capable of for 5 shots. That was with Venezuelan surplus ball ammo. Not bad for a 50's era design and a 50's era shooter. I did try Federal Gold Medal Match HP and a old box of some of my hunting reloads also. But, they were all about the same. I did not shoot it with the scope since it is in storage and not easy to get to at the moment.

In my defense, I have been doing a lot of shooting with precision bolt action guns this winter and must have fooled myself into thinking that all of my guns shot that well. And besides being a bit delusional, I am old, lol. I am still pretty sure it shoots a little tighter with the scope but until I can retrieve it, and shoot it again with the optics installed, we will avoid making claims to such. Like Rush, I pride myself in being right 99.7% of the time. But not this time. Sorry for the error guys.

Irish

 

[DavidAR10]

Reloader's Nest Forum - The Stewart Wilson Story

 

[Will_Power]

What FAL are you shooting? Capable of 1/2 MOA with a scope? C'mon man. There aren't many off the shelf bolt guns that will shoot 1/2 MOA. So I'm a little skeptical that you have an FAL that shoots as well as a custom bolt gun. I'm not saying it's not possible... just that it's not likely.

Three shot groups with a called flier, man! It's totally half MOA capable, if I do my part!

Right.

That's never going to happen with a FAL. Love that rifle, but it wasn't designed to shoot so tightly. Tilting bolt, light barrels, and heavy-ish trigger even with the grittiness smoothed out... not going to happen.

 

[Pat M]

I use to have a nice Canadian L1A1, 1.5 - 2 moa rifle with good mount and scoped. Bought a Dpms Lr 308 - never going backwards to the L1A1 / sold it to get a nice scope for Dpms

 

[elfster1234]

This is really a moot issue. Just get the AR-10

 

[DavidAR10]

This is really a moot issue. Just get the AR-10

 

[JG26_Irish]

Wow, I hate to do this but I was wrong. Please accept my apology for my mis-statement of facts. Working from memory is dangerous and once we reach a certain age it gets worse. In my original post, I made statements about the FAL's iron sight accuracy that were wrong. I was going from memory based on shooting it for a group off the bench last fall. It did shoot a nice tight group under 1" on that day, but I had been doing a lot of 50yd precision rimfire shooting and must have shot the FAL at the same distance and them remembered it incorrectly. Since the tgts were not well marked, it only helped to support the mistake. Please allow me to chalk this up to "Old Fartism". It happens to all of us eventually. I took the FAL to the range today and fired a few 5rd groups from 100yds with open iron sights. 1.5" was more like what it is capable of for 5 shots. That was with Venezuelan surplus ball ammo. Not bad for a 50's era design and a 50's era shooter. I did try Federal Gold Medal Match HP and a old box of some of my hunting reloads also. But, they were all about the same. I did not shoot it with the scope since it is in storage and not easy to get to at the moment.

In my defense, I have been doing a lot of shooting with precision bolt action guns this winter and must have fooled myself into thinking that all of my guns shot that well. And besides being a bit delusional, I am old, lol. I am still pretty sure it shoots a little tighter with the scope but until I can retrieve it, and shoot it again with the optics installed, we will avoid making claims to such. Like Rush, I pride myself in being right 99.7% of the time. But not this time. Sorry for the error guys.

Irish

Just to close out this thread. I was relocating some of my things and dug out the scope and mount for the FAL this week. I took it to the range and fitted the scope to shoot a couple of groups for record. I found an old target that was fired with the FAL in 1991. It was shot with some reloads that I had made for it and measured 1.706" for four shots. The tgt did not say if this was with irons or scope and I do not recall.

This week, I fired a single five shot group using 30yr old Israeli surplus ball ammo that I have had stored in my garage since 2001. It is not match grade but was clean, bright and reliable (as opposed to some other 40yr old stuff that I shot which was dull, corroded and had a few dead rds in it, lol). The 5 shot group measured 1.374" at 100yds, fired from a bench on bags. It might??? be able to do slightly better with match grade ammo, but then, might not. This was just what I had on hand at the time. The scope is a 3-9x variable set to 9x. I should have taken better ammo with me but I was mainly going to shoot another rifle and took the FAL as an afterthought. So, yeah it is not a sub-moa shooter, but is also better than 2" at 100yds.

Irish

 

[Patriot Prepper]

I have an LAR 8 and it is surprisingly very accurate for a moderately priced weapon. It's a sub minute gun in the right hands. I believe I posted a video on this forum years ago showing some of my targets.

It does use Fal mags but be careful. I bought some Fal mags from a gun show and could not get them to work. I did just about everything to the mags without success. I believe they were made in Korea. Other FAL mags I have work just fine. I also believe Rock River still makes some polymere mags for the LAR 8

I love the gun and believe it is an excellent weapon.

 

[JG26_Irish]

I was cleaning out my old garage this week (Moving) and found a stack of old IPSC tgts from many years ago. In them were example groups from several of my rifles including three from the FAL all dating about 20yrs ago. Yeah I know, who keeps 20yr old tgts? All three were 3 shot groups all fired with open sights at 100yds. The best was with a lot of Venezuelan surplus ammo that was particularly good. They document the type of accuracy that I had remembered with this rifle. All three groups were sub MOA. Maybe the best one was a fluke?, I dunno. I measured two of them. The best measured 0.324" center to center and the other one on that tgt was 0.837" center to center. I did not measure the last one but it looked to be just under 1" at 100 yards. I have included pics of all of them. This goes back to my original post, that a good FAL can shoot sub MOA with good ammo and a little luck. It is not a tack driver and is not going to be as accurate as either a good bolt gun or some of the newer, modern 308 semi-rifles. But it ain't bad either.

Irish

 

[Casey Simpson]

308 NATO? I quit reading there.

Buy ORD a case of what he likes and listen to him. Don't talk or write. Listen and read.