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Fast Twist- where are we?

is there an informative post or list of information, which gives the shooter a decent idea of "what it means to shoot "a 9 twist (or any other twist)

never having shot a 9 twist and looking to play around with a faster twist now that summer is approaching, id do some research to see what twist id find best fits my wants etc

thanks
There are numerous posts that I've participated in, but the information is rather high level. To provide written detail surrounding the "what it means" part would have to entail years of data that isn't effectively transferred in a forum post. Done correctly, there would be an index of topics to cover, so, in the end, the information would need to be presented in "book form" to make sense, be useful and avoid forum conjecture.

Aside from the above, I'm unaware if there may be posts or lists authored by others, here or elsewhere.

MB
 
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I shoot a 9t. Huge fan. Most builds I recommend 12t currently. Seem to work really well.

The quick info I'll give is, there's advantages, and (potentially) disadvantages in shooting 9t. I've noticed a distinct velocity loss, over a 12t, which is only marginally less than a 16t. No accuracy difference up to 100m, slight drop difference, but at 200m the 9t has more drop than the 12, which seems basically identical to the 16, within a click or 2. Wind calls "seem" identical, however I need more time to compare. Weirdly, my wind calls at 200m seem more "consistent" with a 9t. But I need time to verify, etc..
 
I shoot a 9t. Huge fan. Most builds I recommend 12t currently. Seem to work really well.

The quick info I'll give is, there's advantages, and (potentially) disadvantages in shooting 9t. I've noticed a distinct velocity loss, over a 12t, which is only marginally less than a 16t. No accuracy difference up to 100m, slight drop difference, but at 200m the 9t has more drop than the 12, which seems basically identical to the 16, within a click or 2. Wind calls "seem" identical, however I need more time to compare. Weirdly, my wind calls at 200m seem more "consistent" with a 9t. But I need time to verify, etc..

so, in general there is a difference but not enough to really tell

possibly down to your specific setup..like most things rimfire

...not like groups are dropping by 20-30% by screwing on a new barrel, out to 200 as of yet

thanks for the info
 
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There are numerous posts that I've participated in, but the information is rather high level. To provide written detail surrounding the "what it means" part would have to entail years of data that isn't effectively transferred in a forum post. Done correctly, there would be an index of topics to cover, so, in the end, the information would need to be presented in "book form" to make sense, be useful and avoid forum conjecture.

Aside from the above, I'm unaware if there may be posts or lists authored by others, here or elsewhere.

figured as much

along the lines with what i replied to above, the data is not cut and dry data showing better or more consistent (yet);

group size
POA/POI
fewer flyers
"bad" lot number of ammo becoming a good lot of ammo

within normal rimfire target distance as of yet

end of the day, if you need a PHD to understand why the groups are the same size, we dont know enough about it

...it is rimfire after all lol
 
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The main reason I haven't fitted & chambered my Bartlein 1-9tw is because I've heard more negative reports of accuracy (relative to what a good 1-16tw bbl produces) at 50-150yds with 1-9s, as opposed to what a good 1-12 bbl will produce at those same distances. And even though I have my own 200-1000yd range, after doing some shooting at 300yds and beyond with several of my 1-16tw 40XB & Vudoo repeaters, I'm not all that enthused about ELR with a 22RF at this point. The practical/tactical 22RF matches I've been shooting usually have a rack of larger KYL steel targets out at a bit over 300yds, and with a good lot of CX on days when the wind isn't just crazy, my 1-16tw rifles will do ok, while still being extremely accurate at the 25-200yd distances where most of our targets are located. IOW, why give up ANY close range accuracy for a perceived advantage at 250-300yds for a smaller number of targets/points? That's why I'm thinking more seriously of a 1-12tw bbl.
 
Some of these statements sound like the fast twist does poorly up close and better at distance. Any quantifiable numbers?
Does something starting out at 1.5+ MOA improve to sub 1MOA ?
 
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Some of these statements sound like the fast twist does poorly up close and better at distance. Any quantifiable numbers?
Does something starting out at 1.5+ MOA improve to sub 1MOA ?
I think it’s important to break down results between 12T and 9T and also comparing out past 200. 1MOA at 100 is fine for PRS-ish stuff, which is what I see from my 12T, but competitive BR standards are higher. My experience is that vertical spread past 200 is lower with the 12T, although I didn’t buy an aftermarket 16T to compare directly for the same reason I don’t buy 2 pickups to do a YouTube review.
 
I love to tinker and have a 1:9, a 1:12, and soon a 1:16 twist barrel. The 1:9 is a Bartlein chambered by Lee Gardner. The 1:12 is a Lothar Walther. The 1:16 will be a Krieger chambered by Modacam. I do see differences between the 1:12 and the 1:9.

The 1:9 gave me some of the best groups I have had at 200 yards. It also has been my best grouping barrel when things are going right. The reasons I rarely shoot it anymore is that I saw a lot of horizontal change at various distances and fliers, when they occurred, seemed to be more extreme. I would be zeroed at 57 yards, but have to go .2 left at 25 yards and .4 right at 200 yards. I think this is from spin drift as it shows up in my ballistic calculator as well and was consistent across multiple days and conditions.

I shoot my 1:12 out to 500 and can pretty regularly connect on a small plate at 400 when the weather is calm. It does seem to have some spin drift but it's minimal especially when compared to the 1:9.

I am trying a slower twist since I have been going to a lot more positional matches where we are roughly 200 yards and in. It's also just to scratch the itch of trying something new. I also wanted something that was chambered for Eley due to the shipping changes from UPS and FedEx making it harder to ship to Lapua. Depending on how it does, I may end up switching back to my 1:12 or building a second rifle with it.

Hope this helps.
 
Running a pair of 12’s and owned/own a few 16’s as well the 12’s do have more spin drift but seem to produce better vertical at distance. My one 12 is phenomenal at 50 and out and my other isn’t as good inside 100 as my 16’s or other 12 not not a dud either.
 
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I have to wonder how many conclusions are being made regarding accuracy
based on the luck of the rimfire cartridge assembly line lottery? :unsure:

Crediting the barrel with improved results, or degraded results,
when the actual cause was variations in cartridge quality as it comes off the production line.
How can you determine cause when dealing with mass produced cartridges?
Do you assume the cartridges are all identical because they came from the same brick? :oops:
 
I love to tinker and have a 1:9, a 1:12, and soon a 1:16 twist barrel. The 1:9 is a Bartlein chambered by Lee Gardner. The 1:12 is a Lothar Walther. The 1:16 will be a Krieger chambered by Modacam. I do see differences between the 1:12 and the 1:9.

The 1:9 gave me some of the best groups I have had at 200 yards. It also has been my best grouping barrel when things are going right. The reasons I rarely shoot it anymore is that I saw a lot of horizontal change at various distances and fliers, when they occurred, seemed to be more extreme. I would be zeroed at 57 yards, but have to go .2 left at 25 yards and .4 right at 200 yards. I think this is from spin drift as it shows up in my ballistic calculator as well and was consistent across multiple days and conditions.

I shoot my 1:12 out to 500 and can pretty regularly connect on a small plate at 400 when the weather is calm. It does seem to have some spin drift but it's minimal especially when compared to the 1:9.

I am trying a slower twist since I have been going to a lot more positional matches where we are roughly 200 yards and in. It's also just to scratch the itch of trying something new. I also wanted something that was chambered for Eley due to the shipping changes from UPS and FedEx making it harder to ship to Lapua. Depending on how it does, I may end up switching back to my 1:12 or building a second rifle with it.

Hope this helps.
Your experience with the 9T mirrors what I was told by another user after extensive testing.
 
Some of these statements sound like the fast twist does poorly up close and better at distance. Any quantifiable numbers?
Does something starting out at 1.5+ MOA improve to sub 1MOA ?
To answer the second question first, no .22LR ammo can improve performance as distance increases -- except by unpredictable circumstances that can't necessarily be repeated on demand.

Regarding the question of quantifiable numbers, perhaps their absence with regard to long distance fast twist performance is not surprising. There are enormous and possibly insurmountable obstacles to getting those numbers or even numbers for standard twist barrels.

The problem centers around the difficulty in conducting ammo or barrel performance testing at long distances with repeatable results. Results that can't be repeated are not useful testing results.

For practical considerations long distance .22LR testing must outdoors where there is much left to chance, particularly the influence of air movements between shooter and target. Match .22LR ammunition is very responsive to wind drift. Air movements can easily be different at various points between shooter and target. It's tough enough to account for air movements at 100 yards; at two times the distance it's much harder still; at 300 or 400 it is nearly impossible and is not likely to happen with any degree of reliability.

In addition to wind, no one can anticipate ammo MV variation, which has an increasing effect on target the further the distance shot. In addition, even slight variation in bullet characteristics from one round to the next will show on results, and many of these remain undetectable without disassembly of the round.

Problems such as these make it extremely difficult to reliably test for repeatable results at long distances.
 
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To answer the second question first, no .22LR ammo can improve performance as distance increases -- except by unpredictable circumstances that can't necessarily be repeated on demand.

Regarding the question of quantifiable numbers, perhaps their absence with regard to long distance fast twist performance is not surprising. There are enormous and possibly insurmountable obstacles to getting those numbers or even numbers for standard twist barrels.

The problem centers around the difficulty in conducting ammo or barrel performance testing at long distances with repeatable results. Results that can't be repeated are not useful testing results.

For practical considerations long distance .22LR testing must outdoors where there is much left to chance, particularly the influence of air movements between shooter and target. Match .22LR ammunition is very responsive to wind drift. Air movements can easily be different at various points between shooter and target. It's tough enough to account for air movements at 100 yards; at two times the distance it's much harder still; at 300 or 400 it is nearly impossible and is not likely to happen with any degree of reliability.

In addition to wind, no one can anticipate ammo MV variation, which has an increasing effect on target the further the distance shot. In addition, even slight variation in bullet characteristics from one round to the next will show on results, and many of these remain undetectable without disassembly of the round.

Problems such as these make it extremely difficult to reliably test for repeatable results at long distances.
After shooting at 600 yards a number of times last summer with 16tw barrels, I am not sure a better summary could be made. I know from a handful of outings just what winds I may have decent success in, and in winds there is no use setting up.
I do think bringing up the ammo lottery with factory ammo is a moot point at whatever distances are shot, we see discrepancies at 50 yards to whatever distance the majority of 22LR shooters are willing to try. The farther out you go, the more exaggerated these become, especially on the low end of velocities, and if one wants to, they can be measurable and discarded from data.
Here on SH, there is more than a few who have embraced fast tw and are fed up and are tired of defending their choice. One in particular has stated, find out for yourself, which in truth is the best policy.
With that said, in these conversations, the knowledge base is not engaging and here we are with speculation, conjecture and theory. I have inspected enough targets at 600 to know there are a number of bullets starting to become unstable, and a few that have keyholed. I'm not going to let anyone tell me that spinning the bullet faster will not help.
Now, weighing the values of which twist is better, IMO, is a very interesting topic, yet again, we are missing a certain faction of people's experiences.
If you shoot 22LR at distance, you either want to try a faster tw, or you don't. If you don't, find nice days to go to the range, everything works on non windy days, and we are all good on non windy days.
If a fast tw gives an edge past 300, enough will try and data will present itself eventually. I know barrel makers are swamped, but if a guy could buy a fast tw without a 4-6 month wait, our conversations would be more informative.

I'm tired of reading, I ordered a 9tw Lilja this morning. Whether I have to pay a comparable shooter to shoot my 16tw Vudoo right beside me shot for shot, I am going to gather enough info on whether or not the investment was worth it.
 
I just threw on a 12tw from Preferred Barrel Blanks that I ordered around thanksgiving because I wanted to test it out a quicker twist rate and see for myself what they are all about. I also have a 12tw ratchet on order from shilen but that’s 12+ months out and the PBB was quoted at 10 weeks for a prefit, so I figured I’d take advantage of the short lead so I could test and see with my own eyes.
 
After all of this interesting SH discussion on fast twist .22LR barrels for ELR, I now have 3-400 rounds of Center-X through a 21" 1:9 Lilja on my Sako Quad - gently cleaned after every box with RF Blend.

The lot of CX that I have been shooting will group at around 4" @ 200y with my Sako and Anny factory 1:16 barrels, but with the Lilja 1:9, the vertical dispersion is 10-12" - totally unacceptable. Results at 50 and 100 are excellent, but this is not why we are all experimenting with fast twists....

I bought the barrel hoping for some improvement at 3-400y, but now I am thinking why bother? Is the Lilja now a just a $600 paperweight, or should I be doing something that I'm missing to improve accuracy?
 
I think you have found out what most have.

Current Ammo and fast twist aren’t compatible.

In theory it sounds like it’s a home run but in reality it’s not consistent or a general improvement.

I think the next step will be squeeze bore using newer rifling tech.

I know 1 company in England is working on it now.

But at the end of the day it’s still rimfire and we can’t control the ammo, meaning there are more variables out of our control.

300 yards and want more than 10” x 10” groups…get a center fire.

Wish there was more to it, but it seems that’s where we are
 
I thought there was info that listed a 22" 1 in 9 twist barrel to get the best long range 22lr accuracy. Shorter barrels didn't seem to deliver the same accuracy level at longer yardages.
 
10" vert dispersion @ 200y ? Wow, not good.

Guess I'm blessed to have 6" @ 200m reliably. 9 twist.
 
I agree if I was to do it again, 12t is where I'd sit. Ill be trying a 14t shortly for a barrel manuf.
9t only has benefit at 300+m I've found, however I am getting significant "spin drift", nothing which you can't count for, and I'm also taking a velo hit. 12t seems like a damn fine sweet spot.
 
Promised range report -1 to 12 20” IBI. On a Duece. Eley match. Mv 1114 ( the box says 1068). Sd 3.7 for ten rounds. I tested 3 other lots in this barrel got 10.9 , 6.7, 8.3. Wind was on and off 8 mph. Here are the targets. I didn’t want to use a ton of ammo so obviously a small sample size. 50 and 100 are 5 shots 200-300 10 shots. Basically really happy with the
DD93F43F-3BE2-413A-AA65-5C1F80282545.jpeg
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results. I think the wind died on those 3 on the right of the 300. That would zero out my 2 mil correction. I’m used to 4-5 in groups at 200 with lot tested ammo in 16 twist barrels. My conclusion is i got lucky on this barrel ammo combo
 
Promised range report -1 to 12 20” IBI. On a Duece. Eley match. Mv 1114 ( the box says 1068). Sd 3.7 for ten rounds. I tested 3 other lots in this barrel got 10.9 , 6.7, 8.3. Wind was on and off 8 mph. Here are the targets. I didn’t want to use a ton of ammo so obviously a small sample size. 50 and 100 are 5 shots 200-300 10 shots. Basically really happy with theView attachment 8127264View attachment 8127265View attachment 8127266 results. I think the wind died on those 3 on the right of the 300. That would zero out my 2 mil correction. I’m used to 4-5 in groups at 200 with lot tested ammo in 16 twist barrels. My conclusion is i got lucky on this barrel ammo combo
Looks good!!! I had my deuce out yesterday as well with an Ibi 1:12 22”. Had an sd of 5 for 20 rounds. I didn’t put it on paper at 100,200 or 300 just 50, 75 and steel from 75-325.

While my 20 shot group at 200 was douvle my 10 shot the vertical was only slightly bigger so overall very pleased.


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In Litz's twist test he said some combinations lowered the SD. I'm too lazy to stick the 16 twist back on to compare, but it makes you wonder.
 
In Litz's twist test he said some combinations lowered the SD. I'm too lazy to stick the 16 twist back on to compare, but it makes you wonder.
If I had a more direct comparision for 1:16 twist I would try it, but I have 2 ibi 1:12’s 22” and a lothar 16 twist. I have a 16 twist Ibi coming and a 14 twist ks arms coming
 
Anyone have any experience with a mullerworks barrel? I see they have a 13 twist option. Was considering dropping that on vudoo and running it out to 24 inches. Would a 13 twist mess with my targets up close 50yds and in? They also run the 50yd KYL rack. For some odd reason my one local match the director likes to drop targets in the 35 yd range small prairie dogs and such....
 
I haven’t any issue with my 12tw barrel up close, it’s been able to print .2 groups with the right ammo and me doing everything right. Your mileage may vary, but it seems the fast twist stuff doesn’t really give up much on the close targets we shoot for PRS/NRL stuff.
Anyone have any experience with a mullerworks barrel? I see they have a 13 twist option. Was considering dropping that on vudoo and running it out to 24 inches. Would a 13 twist mess with my targets up close 50yds and in? They also run the 50yd KYL rack. For some odd reason my one local match the director likes to drop targets in the 35 yd range small prairie dogs and such....
 
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Anyone have any experience with a mullerworks barrel? I see they have a 13 twist option. Was considering dropping that on vudoo and running it out to 24 inches. Would a 13 twist mess with my targets up close 50yds and in? They also run the 50yd KYL rack. For some odd reason my one local match the director likes to drop targets in the 35 yd range small prairie dogs and such....
I have one of these on a Rim X, going on a month now. A lot of things could go wrong in a selection, length, mine 23", and chambering.
All I have right now is that I have tested a lot of ammo, at 50, 200 and 300 yards. Conditions not perfect, but it has been a struggle. Had a couple lots of Lapua Long Range that looked promising, so I slapped a tuner on, wasted even more ammo.
I can't add barrel, no clue what length to try cutting it off at. Been one expensive project.
I doubt it is the barrel itself, but choices, lol
 
I have one of these on a Rim X, going on a month now. A lot of things could go wrong in a selection, length, mine 23", and chambering.
All I have right now is that I have tested a lot of ammo, at 50, 200 and 300 yards. Conditions not perfect, but it has been a struggle. Had a couple lots of Lapua Long Range that looked promising, so I slapped a tuner on, wasted even more ammo.
I can't add barrel, no clue what length to try cutting it off at. Been one expensive project.
I doubt it is the barrel itself, but choices, lol
That’s a rough one, I guess I got lucky with my barrel or something. I went 23” with the random Lapua reamer the smith had and didn’t thread it based on people’s recommendation since it’s a straight 1.25”
 
I have one of these on a Rim X, going on a month now. A lot of things could go wrong in a selection, length, mine 23", and chambering.
All I have right now is that I have tested a lot of ammo, at 50, 200 and 300 yards. Conditions not perfect, but it has been a struggle. Had a couple lots of Lapua Long Range that looked promising, so I slapped a tuner on, wasted even more ammo.
I can't add barrel, no clue what length to try cutting it off at. Been one expensive project.
I doubt it is the barrel itself, but choices, lol
Who did the work?
 
Anyone have any experience with a mullerworks barrel? I see they have a 13 twist option. Was considering dropping that on vudoo and running it out to 24 inches. Would a 13 twist mess with my targets up close 50yds and in? They also run the 50yd KYL rack. For some odd reason my one local match the director likes to drop targets in the 35 yd range small prairie dogs and such....
I got a Three 60 barrelled action by way of DI Precision with a 25" MullerWorks 8-groove, 1:13", 1.250" straight several weeks ago. I'm still in the process of releasing a write-up.

I'm not the best shooter by any means, but from my testing so far, I can throw any random lot of Center-X into it and it will shoot at least .6MOA at 50 yards and will get down to .3MOA with a good lot (shooting 10-round aggregate strings). I feel like you're not going to give up anything 50 yards and in.
 
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I got a Three 60 barrelled action by way of DI Precision with a 25" MullerWorks 8-groove, 1:13", 1.250" straight

I'm not the best shooter by any means, but from my testing so far, I can throw any random lot of Center-X into it and it will shoot at least .6MOA at 50 yards and will get down to .3MOA with a good lot (shooting 10-round aggregate strings). I feel like you're not going to give up anything 50 yards and in.
When a barrel can shoot "any random lot of Center-X" to produce at least .6 MOA (about .314" center-to-center or no more than about 13.5mm outside-to-outside) ten-shot group averages at 50 yards, it's an incredible thing. For that particular barrel there is no such thing as a bad lot of CX ammo.

What's more, lot selected ammo gets results that are considerably better, with ten-shot averages as good as 7mm outside-to-outside. It's hard not to wish for such a barrel.
 
I have one of these on a Rim X, going on a month now. A lot of things could go wrong in a selection, length, mine 23", and chambering.
All I have right now is that I have tested a lot of ammo, at 50, 200 and 300 yards. Conditions not perfect, but it has been a struggle. Had a couple lots of Lapua Long Range that looked promising, so I slapped a tuner on, wasted even more ammo.
I can't add barrel, no clue what length to try cutting it off at. Been one expensive project.
I doubt it is the barrel itself, but choices, lol
You don't just pick a random length for a remfire barrel and cut and crown. Find a gunsmith who can slug the barrel to determine the tight spot if it has one. Cut and crown at this point.
,
 
My most recent 22LR build using a new Vudoo Gun Works Three 60 action and a 25" MullerWorks 8-groove (1:13" twist, 1.250" straight) by way of DI Precision.

https://www.ocabj.net/di-precision-vudoo-gun-works-three-60-rifle-overview/

Build sheet:

  • Vudoo Gun Works Three 60 action
  • MullerWorks, Inc. 8-groove, 25″ length, 1:13″ twist, 1.250″ straight contour, unthreaded barrel
  • TriggerTech Diamond Pro Curved trigger
  • Masterpiece Arms Matrix Professional chassis
  • Vudoo Gun Works 40MOA scope base
  • AUDERE ADVERSUS 36mm diameter, 38mm tall, 20 MOA scope mount
  • Zero Compromise Optic ZC527 MPCT3 scope

22 lb 1 oz weight of rifle without bipod, running internal and external weights on the front half of the foreend to get it to balance exactly where I want it.








 
Who did the work?
Geno, that is not me, I am sure he did it right.
Update on the 13tw, a Eley reamer was used. After sorting through over 12 lots of various Lapua ammos, I tested some Eley match this am and found a winner. I was able to shoot 5 consecutive groups under 1.25" @ 200. ES of 14, SD of 2.4 for a 30 rd sample. Only issue I see, but did not see it actually, avg velocity was 1132. This will suffice for my first outing, when I have more time and nicer weather. There was inventory left of this lot and bought 5 bricks to see me through for a bit.
Also have a sample pack of 18 lots of RWS heading my way.
My absence was not arrogance, I needed to own what was going on and never intended on blaming anyone in the equation other than myself.
With a tuner, I am swinging wide on the learning curve, lmfao
 
22lb rimfire ? Wtf is wrong with people.

Also... nice build/groups !
The 3 time PRS/NRL22 champ uses a 25lb rifle.. there is a purpose for it and an advantage for using a heavy rifle as long as it’s not so heavy it’s a hinderance.. Mine is 22lbs and I would prefer 18 but the gun needs to balance for me to like the way it handles. Of all the money I spend on my rigs, nothing improved my shooting off barricades like adding weight and balancing the rifle..I am sure piss poor fundamentals are the reason but while I work on that, give me the weight on my march gun.
 
I am sure piss poor
Found the poor !.

I've built multiple CF rifles for customers less than 20lb. So 22lb for a rimfire is... excessive. My personal CF is (does maths in head) 16lb ?? 7.5kg with bipod. Balances perfectly. Rimfire is marginally lighter, but basically identical. Also balances fine.
Guy who is comming 3rd overall in AU-PRS series, his setup is same as mine, however he just bumped it to 8kg.
You don't need to have a heavy rifle to win. Just be less shit. And stop being poor.
 
Found the poor !.

I've built multiple CF rifles for customers less than 20lb. So 22lb for a rimfire is... excessive. My personal CF is (does maths in head) 16lb ?? 7.5kg with bipod. Balances perfectly. Rimfire is marginally lighter, but basically identical. Also balances fine.
Guy who is comming 3rd overall in AU-PRS series, his setup is same as mine, however he just bumped it to 8kg.
You don't need to have a heavy rifle to win. Just be less shit. And stop being poor.
OMG... you have a friend..that came in 3rd place at the Aussie open? Your opinion must be valued..and it absolutely gives you the right to judge other peoples rigs and how they like their set up.. If I had only known you knew that guy..my apologies,
 
I haven’t been keeping up with everything so don’t beat me up
Ok everyone , let’s pick this back up and try to consolidate some information , so far for long range
Cut rifling is better than button?
For casual enthusiasts 1-12/13 is better?
1-9 , IM me the details of the black arts please , 1/9 is still the best but finicky
Barrels over what length for fast twist ? At first it was 22” now it sounds like ,,,, 20?
And everyone in prs is moving to 1.250 barrels for weight to balance their rifle and still using tuners but last I looked into it bench rest had moved to I think 24” .750 dia to get whip ? And the most effective tune , how effective are these tuners on these fat barrels ?
 
Ahh , ok I thought lastI had checked was the trend was going lighter for more ,,, whip to help the tuner work ?
 
By whip I’m referring to the node , harmonics , amount of movement