No, it’s not the HTG!
- Thread starter Toftwo
- Start date
Give me until this evening to be more thorough, got honey-do list to work on today.
Never seen a 4.5-14 of any flavor in the program.
I’ll post more pics/info about the FBI stocks I know about…
Never seen a 4.5-14 of any flavor in the program.
I’ll post more pics/info about the FBI stocks I know about…
The early stocks are plain old M70 pattern stocks, I’m pretty sure. They only have checkering on the wrist/grip, smooth on the fore end.
The A3 looks like standard McMillan offering with texture on both ends.
The A3 looks like standard McMillan offering with texture on both ends.
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@j-huskey you're absolutely right, I edited my previous post.
@Skunk looking back through the pictures, the only HTG stocks I see are the ones @Marauder references in post 563.
What stocks were used for the first Rem 700 rifles? A3 later based of pictures but was the HTG used at all?
Also I think it’s the Model 70 McMillan stock, it’s the only one on the McMillan site that looks like it has the right short cheek comb.
@Skunk looking back through the pictures, the only HTG stocks I see are the ones @Marauder references in post 563.
What stocks were used for the first Rem 700 rifles? A3 later based of pictures but was the HTG used at all?
Also I think it’s the Model 70 McMillan stock, it’s the only one on the McMillan site that looks like it has the right short cheek comb.
Me and skunk have discussed this before. I’m almost 100% this is the right stock to use. I figured that out after I ordered my general purpose hunting stock.
Looking at all the pictures of the stocks posted here that we know are original issue, there is no doubt those stocks are the model 70 hunting, and my memory is of such, .....
However, hiding in my memory is a thought that later in the program, I'd swear there was a gph... but, until Skunk shows one, well, I'm ..... just .... waiting.
I’ve never seen an HTG in one of our vaults or on a rifle, but that doesn’t mean the FBI doesn’t/didn’t have one.
I’ve only seen the McMillan M70 and A3 stocks on Remington’s and M70’s.
I’ve only seen the McMillan M70 and A3 stocks on Remington’s and M70’s.
As long as we’re talking about SWAT rifles….
The early scopes were the VariX III 3.5-10x40, MilDot or Duplex reticle (Rem700 and M70)
The HS Precision rifles came with the Mark 4 3.5-10x40 M1, MilDot reticle
In 2014, I was in the first Advanced Sniper course to use the Mk6 3-18 scope. It had some kind of mil-based 7.62 ballistic reticle in it. We all hated it and it was changed out for the H59 in the following months. That’s been the standard scope up until the last year or two when some with the Tremor 3 started to trickle in. Kind of a mix of both out in the field now.
The early scopes were the VariX III 3.5-10x40, MilDot or Duplex reticle (Rem700 and M70)
The HS Precision rifles came with the Mark 4 3.5-10x40 M1, MilDot reticle
In 2014, I was in the first Advanced Sniper course to use the Mk6 3-18 scope. It had some kind of mil-based 7.62 ballistic reticle in it. We all hated it and it was changed out for the H59 in the following months. That’s been the standard scope up until the last year or two when some with the Tremor 3 started to trickle in. Kind of a mix of both out in the field now.
If you want to replicate an early SWAT rifle, you need this stock in the blue/grey/black camo and try to get it with checkering on the wrist/grip only.
Speak of the devil…. This is the short-lived scope I mentioned.
www.snipershide.com
Optics - Leupold MK6 3-18 rare CMR-grid reticle
This is a very rare optic. The reticle was designed by a Delta Force sniper that was involved in the Battle of Mogadishu (Blackhawk Down). It is a hybrid reticle with BDC holdotvers out to 600 then it goes to a Horus style tree after that. The BDC matches well with 308 and 69-77gr 223 loads. It...
www.snipershide.com 
They were still teaching the Crouch position in 1980???? interesting. I figured that went out in the ‘60s or early ‘70’s.An FBI model 10 on the range at Quantico...1980
Assume that changed rapidly, along with a lot of FBI firearms training and tech, after Miami?
Interesting pix!
Sirhr
An FBI model 10 on the range at Quantico...1980
I don't believe that's a model 10. I think it's the 3" model 13 357 magnum they were carrying them.
I thought they had the stainless model 65 heavy barrel by 1980 as well? 3” or 4”. Basically the Same as the 66, but fixed sights.
Sirhr
Between the 4" pencil barrel model 10 (the "Hoover Heater") and the vaunted 3" model 13, the Bureau issued 2 1/2" model 10's. That is one of the short barrel model 10's.
The reason I know that is because that is me in the pictures, qualifying during NAC 80-6.
The Bureau never issued stainless steel revolvers.
Many agents carried stainless steel revolvers, but they were personally owned, Bureau approved weapons.
It's hard to tell the difference between the 2.5" model 10 and the 3" model 13, expecially in a crappy picture like I posted.
2.5" model 10
3" model 13
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LOL...I've been called worse by betterDamn, you were unhandsome.... wooo....
Just kidding, no offense intended.
How did you like the vaunted 13 firing full house loads ???
I thought it sucked...
I actually never fired the Model 13, but they were punishing in my model 66.
Damn...and I didn't think I could feel any older.
I'd tell you about some of the other guns we shot back then, but you'd probably break a few ribs laughing.
Nah, we have one of each in the vault in El Paso. We have original 1911’s in .45 and 380 Super, all the Smith revolvers, the Smith semi-autos, Hi-Powers, etc.Damn...and I didn't think I could feel any older.
I'd tell you about some of the other guns we shot back then, but you'd probably break a few ribs laughing.
I like the old stuff. The tactical Tupperware we play with these days are great weapons, but not much to look at and admire.
Glad to hear that they held on to some of those weapons. Do they still have any Thompsons?
We had to qualify with the "sniper rifle", which was a Remington model 760 (!), pump-action rifle in .308. IIRC, it had a 4X Weaver or Leupold scope on it.
The craziest thing was that we "qualified" at 50 yards on the pistol range with it, shooting some odd-ball blue plastic training ammo. We also shot it on the "sniper tower".
We had to qualify with the "sniper rifle", which was a Remington model 760 (!), pump-action rifle in .308. IIRC, it had a 4X Weaver or Leupold scope on it.
The craziest thing was that we "qualified" at 50 yards on the pistol range with it, shooting some odd-ball blue plastic training ammo. We also shot it on the "sniper tower".
Maybe.
They used to have an old DC4 aircraft parked near the ranges and the "sniper tower" was near the DC4
That’s gone now…. The fuselage, I mean
Standing on the range across from the academy and facing down-range, HRT/Tactical Section is down the hill to your left, toward the lake. There is some kind of old tower down there which may be what you’re referring to. It’s only maybe 2-3 stories tall…?
There’s a lot of new stuff there just since I left the academy, so it’s hard to describe. There’s a whole string of buildings (former Ballistic Research and new Firearms Training Unit) between the range you’re familiar with and Tactical Section.
Standing on the range across from the academy and facing down-range, HRT/Tactical Section is down the hill to your left, toward the lake. There is some kind of old tower down there which may be what you’re referring to. It’s only maybe 2-3 stories tall…?
There’s a lot of new stuff there just since I left the academy, so it’s hard to describe. There’s a whole string of buildings (former Ballistic Research and new Firearms Training Unit) between the range you’re familiar with and Tactical Section.
Okay okay okay, hold up. That is something we need to see. Found a few references but bad photos, vague. Anyone got any more on the configuration, practice, qual, and use of the 760s?
Blue bullet, or blue all over like this?
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DAG German training rounds.Okay okay okay, hold up. That is something we need to see. Found a few references but bad photos, vague. Anyone got any more on these?
Blue bullet, or blue all over like this?
Several years ago the Cleveland office had several (2?) Colt Thompsons in their inventory and boxes full of original Colt parts in the printed paper envelopes.
I would like to know if the story about Louis Freeh having a Washington office Colt Thompson cut up for a display board as a retirement gift to himself is true????????
Oh /I/ know, just starting with photo.
AM32 PATRONE, UEBUNG (cartridge, exercise), DM18A1B1 (I suspect there are other variations going back in time). Developed from earlier Norwegian practice ammo.
10 grain bullet molded along with the case. On firing the bullet bit separates and has an MV of around 4,000 FPS. Very light, somewhat draggy, looses speed fast and has very low energy. For indoor ranges, and otherwise the dense world much of Europe is in, allows troops based in towns (almost all of them) to get firing time without having to spend all day to drive to a range facility.
Most such training is now done with sort of super-duper EST2000s, all totally non-ballistic setups, often VR goggles and all and pneumatics or electric recoil on the guns, etc. Anyway, I digress a lot
AM32 PATRONE, UEBUNG (cartridge, exercise), DM18A1B1 (I suspect there are other variations going back in time). Developed from earlier Norwegian practice ammo.
10 grain bullet molded along with the case. On firing the bullet bit separates and has an MV of around 4,000 FPS. Very light, somewhat draggy, looses speed fast and has very low energy. For indoor ranges, and otherwise the dense world much of Europe is in, allows troops based in towns (almost all of them) to get firing time without having to spend all day to drive to a range facility.
Most such training is now done with sort of super-duper EST2000s, all totally non-ballistic setups, often VR goggles and all and pneumatics or electric recoil on the guns, etc. Anyway, I digress a lot
That sounds like it. I'll try to find some more 43 year old photographs and see if I have any pictures of it.
That looks like the rounds we fired.Okay okay okay, hold up. That is something we need to see. Found a few references but bad photos, vague. Anyone got any more on the configuration, practice, qual, and use of the 760s?
Blue bullet, or blue all over like this?
We had two resident agents way back then. Bill O & Jim N.. Bill was unmarried and acted, well, prissy. He did marry and retire to our city. Jim retired to our sister city Auburn. I eventually hired his son in dispatch, he went to APD, and was a Sgt there.
Bill was our source of lots of pistol ammo, which I mentioned earlier in this 14 pages.
Jim had a birdcage m16 and a 760 with a 4x weaver scope.
I shot both. I mentioned the national guard was an ammo source that benefitted us a bit for 223 & m60 308 linked that went through that m16 & 760...
Both were plain Jane no frills out of the box. The 760 wasn't called a sniper rifle then though, was "counter sniper"...
I remember the black chevy bu-car with the chain locked trunk, and the gun cases holding those two rifles. The match ammo was white box winchester olin when Jim had it. Same ammo we could scrounge from the FT Benning marksmanship people, way way back then. Somebody posted a white box pic somewhere on the hide in the last 6 months, didnt think to steal it and move it here.
This was 1981, these memories.
Both Bill & Jim were influential in getting two of our officers into the bureau. Both were SWAT with us, on our first SWAT team.
My bud Bob M went and was in NC a long time, he was FBI regional SWAT, not HRT. He's the guy I'm building the rifle for. His biggest "thing" I remember was hunting Eric Rudolph in the mountains, carrying a sniper rifle up n down those "hills", he was pure miserable...
Bob fell off the plane ladder doing airplane entry, fucked up his shoulder most badly and that ended his FBI SWAT career.
Other bud was JohnnyMac, who ended up in CA, working bank robbery detail, he got us the "official" tape of the monster shootout there. He was kinda prissy like Bill O. But, he was a pussyhound with a long suffering wife who put up with his shit. He eventually came back to AL, retired, and was Chief of Police here. He never did FBI SWAT like Bob but he made sure our SWAT team got the best of everything once he was Chief here.
Memories, memories, the mention of the 760 brought them back.
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Do you have any of the original hard cases with them???
Yeah, the leather wrapped boxes with the purple felt interior….
McMillan can’t remove the front checkering, I called and asked and it’s part of the mold. The Model 70 stock they say is “discontinued” but that just mean that they don’t inlet it, no issue making it a flat top. And since I had them on the phone……
I don’t think they’re sniper fill. It’s not a very heavy stock…not like a USMC return stock.
Yeah, I deviated there. I tend to like a little more weight at the middle/rear of the stock and the sniper fill adds a few ounces there. Seems to balance better with the longer barrels.
@Skunk in the verified stocks you have are they bedded? If not, the heavier fill *should* be visible as a more dense and fibrous looking section since it has fiberglass embedded in it. Newer stocks it’s a darker color as well, can be hit or miss on the color change in older stocks.
@j-huskey $766
Any chance of getting some pics of the Hi-Power? Pretty Please?
I’ll try. It’ll be a few weeks before I’m back down there.
HA!! Any idea what that "leather wrapper box with purple felt interior" is worth? $$,$$$.
Few survived. Between the weight of the Thompson, a 50 round drum loaded, and 4 20 round mags loaded, it got kinda heavy.
They fell apart, were dropped loaded, thrown in trunks, etc.
Please let me know if they decide to toss any of those leather wrapped boxes in the trash!
How long has the EP office been open? Was it there in the old Pancho Via or later Gangster Days?
An indelible childhood memory. 5th grade class trip to DC, tour of the FBI building and getting to see a mag dump with the Thompson. I remember absolutely nothing else about the tour.
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This is the one I get to goof around with.
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