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Feeling down, how about euthanasia as meds?

Also interesting that they think the "Oracle at Delphi" was influenced by subterranean gases that caused the hallucinations and wild visions.

Eh what harm can a little natural poison do?

A little ergot only resulted in a few innocent dead at Salem.

Do the reading before you offer smart alek answers. Perhaps you know more than Soc and Plato? Its not poison if it helps you. There are two types of ergot. One causes gangrene, one causes visions of higher realms.

They didnt do it frivolously, they did it in a highly structured environment with much preparation. Respectfully, do the reading, or dont but dont act as though you know it all if you havent.
 
Choosing death because one arrogantly can’t conform to the rules of reality sounds a bit like a biblical lesson to me.

It is the entire reason for this experience. Figuring out that even with our power to choose that we don’t know better than the spectacular dude that holds all the molecules in motion. Thank God he is patient with us and maintains His position perpetually.
 
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I don't know, I guess Holland went overboard there... Thing is, they respect YOUR right to do what you want with your own body in a way that just can't be understood apparently by Americans. I've been there and tolerance is the best thing about Holland.

BUT I do think when it comes to euthanasia that there be some kind of protection in place to prevent people with temporary or untreated problems from taking the permanent solution. We have that here for instance. That never would have happened in WA. You have to go to more than one doctor in order to get "the pills" and they won't do it for depression and such. End term whatever? Yes. PTSD? No.

Some groups take this euthanasia shit WAY too goddamn far. Assisting euthanasia, fine, assisting suicide, not fine.
 
Choosing death because one arrogantly can’t conform to the rules of reality sounds a bit like a biblical lesson to me.

It is the entire reason for this experience. Figuring out that even with our power to choose that we don’t know better than the spectacular dude that holds all the molecules in motion. Thank God he is patient with us and maintains the His position perpetually.

You make great arguments but they are based on one premise - the existence of God or a God. Not everyone believes the same thing and people can, and do, find strength elsewhere than religions.
 
Choosing death because one arrogantly can’t conform to the rules of reality sounds a bit like a biblical lesson to me.

It is the entire reason for this experience. Figuring out that even with our power to choose that we don’t know better than the spectacular dude that holds all the molecules in motion. Thank God he is patient with us and maintains His position perpetually.


"can’t conform to the rules of reality"? Bwahahahahaha

And you, of course, just like the radical Muslim, are in the position to make that determination for others?
 
Aren't you the one always saying, "follow the money" @Maggot ?

When healthcare is "free" it's a lot cheaper to kill the patients than to treat them. Follow the money in a failing socialist hellhole.
You make great arguments but they are based on one premise - the existence of God or a God. Not everyone believes the same thing and people can, and do, find strength elsewhere than religions.
Like this poor girl?
 
Aren't you the one always saying, "follow the money" @Maggot ?

When healthcare is "free" it's a lot cheaper to kill the patients than to treat them. Follow the money in a failing socialist hellhole.

Like this poor girl?

She made a choice. A sad one, but she made it. Where does the money come into play?
 
Aren't you the one always saying, "follow the money" @Maggot ?

When healthcare is "free" it's a lot cheaper to kill the patients than to treat them. Follow the money in a failing socialist hellhole.

Like this poor girl?

What is your point or the relevance of that comment? Are you inferring that if she believed in a God that everything would have been okay? I really hope that is not your point.
 
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You make great arguments but they are based on one premise - the existence of God or a God. Not everyone believes the same thing and people can, and do, find strength elsewhere than religions.

How about love then? A little Love for one another instead of fighting over things that we can never fully own. Loving acts take many forms to include the warrior who gives his life protecting those of his friends.

Surely all can find some bit of peace in Love and caring just a small bit for one another. Showing others the land mines, milestones to sucess, how to work within reality instead of this focus of always me, me, me, mine, and you stay over there.
 
My wife leaves for Holland tonight. Her company owns two companies in Holland and one in Belgium. I'm there three or four times a year, and will be again in July.

They're fucked. Amsterdam used to be beautiful and clean. It's a dump like any other big city now, and worse than many in Europe. There is a single restaurant left that serves Dutch food. It used to be safe, and now it's dangerous at night. It's worse every time I go.

I took my Kid to "Dippy Doh Play-land", and it was the two of us and a sea of burkas on a weekday. Thousands of people there and we were the only ones that could possibly pass for Dutch that I could see. Their socialist system is collapsing under the weight of unrestricted immigration from the Middle East. They don't assimilate, they don't work, but the take all the benefits of socialism and free everything. It is crashing their whole culture AND YOU CAN SEE IT!

Stick a fork in them, they're not coming back. I have no doubt in 50 years it will be a sharia country.
 
How about love then? A little Love for one another instead of fighting over things that we can never fully own. Loving acts take many forms to include the warrior who gives his life protecting those of his friends.

Surely all can find some bit of peace in Love and caring just a small bit for one another. Showing others the land mines, milestones to sucess, how to work within reality instead of this focus of always me, me, me, mine, and you stay over there.

Brother I hear you, and agree. Perhaps if someone had shown her a way to channel her energy into helping others it might have made a difference. but dont assume that your way works for everyone, nor all the time. Ive seen the miraculous, I wouldnt be here but for a couple of miracles, but I dont put that on anyone else. Ive also seen it fail.
 
How about love then? A little Love for one another instead of fighting over things that we can never fully own. Loving acts take many forms to include the warrior who gives his life protecting those of his friends.

Surely all can find some bit of peace in Love and caring just a small bit for one another. Showing others the land mines, milestones to sucess, how to work within reality instead of this focus of always me, me, me, mine, and you stay over there.

That I can agree with 100%. Love, compassion, empathy and acceptance can make things better for most people involved.
 
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What is your point or the relevance of that comment? Are you inferring that if she believed in a God that everything would have been okay? I really hope that is not your point.
No, my point was that people can get help and be helped. Killing them or allowing them to commit suicide doesn't make any logical sense unless there is no way to treat them. Lots of people come back from depression through treatment. I am not aware of untreatable depression unless it's coupled with a lot of other things. And, try to stay off any elevated equines. My father suffered from depression and killed himself.

I get the libertarian argument, and it's very appealing in theory, but in practice it lacks humanity and compassion even though that's what it proclaims. It IS the easy way out, and a capitulation without a fight.

Here's the rub. Making it illegal isn't going to stop anyone who is really suffering with no end in sight and decides to end it. Making it legal is only going to change the outcome to death in cases like the above. It should not be as relative as the libertarian position would like to make it. There ought to be some definitions and bright lines, and the best place to do that is not to condone it, because it really doesn't matter.

I think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken, but it certainly will be once we "fix" it.
 
No, my point was that people can get help and be helped. Killing them or allowing them to commit suicide doesn't make any logical sense unless there is no way to treat them. Lots of people come back from depression through treatment. I am not aware of untreatable depression unless it's coupled with a lot of other things. And, try to stay off any elevated equines. My father suffered from depression and killed himself.

I get the libertarian argument, and it's very appealing in theory, but in practice it lacks humanity and compassion even though that's what it proclaims. It IS the easy way out, and a capitulation without a fight.

Here's the rub. Making it illegal isn't going to stop anyone who is really suffering with no end in sight and decides to end it. Making it legal is only going to change the outcome to death in cases like the above. It should not be as relative as the libertarian position would like to make it. There ought to be some definitions and bright lines, and the best place to do that is not to condone it, because it really doesn't matter.

I think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken, but it certainly will be once we "fix" it.

One over ridding assumption is that the person wants to be treated. Not trying to be a wise ass but have you dealt with true depression? I hope not but if you have then you know that is a daily struggle and NOTHING makes it better but time and drugs. The drugs dull every aspect of your life and numb you to every daily experience, that is not a life, that is an existence. Time will make things better but being a truly depressed person means that anything can happen and trigger those feelings and you are right back to where you were. Of course life is not easy not fair (which is a trite argument in this example) but dealing with real depression is a full time job.

Making euthanasia legal does ONE very important thing and that it is allows a person to die with dignity and on their terms. I am not touting the virtues of making euthanasia legal and there are caveats to this, as other posters have pointed out. BUT people should be allowed that choice as long as they are mentally well enough to make the decision. No one knows what someone else's life is like unless they live it themselves.
 
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"Sexually assaulted three times" and if it was a muslim who did it, the dutch police would simply refuse to investigate or prosecute the crime. Lax on crime socialists are not willing to help this mentally unstable woman with her problems.

BUT! They are pleased she chose to kill herself and end the embarrassment she brought upon them by complaining about being raped. Welcome to America with the next Democrat president.
 
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Your argument is no different than encouraging people with gender dysphoria to physically change their sex. People who suffer from mental illness are mentally ill, and not in their right minds. While it is awful that they see only darkness and despair, allowing or encouraging them to kill themselves (what do you think legalization is?) is basically saying, "Yes, it is hopeless. You can't be helped, so I agree that you should kill yourself."

Again, appealing to my strong libertarian sentiments I want to agree with you, but I don't, because it's not that simple. I'm for legalizing pot even though I think it's a waste and stupid, because I do not believe it robs people of their free will like other, highly addictive drugs. Depression robs a person of their free will just as if they were addicted to heroin. They CAN be helped. We should not write them off and condone this, or we are a callous society unworthy of continuing.
 
Your argument is no different than encouraging people with gender dysphoria to physically change their sex. People who suffer from mental illness are mentally ill, and not in their right minds. While it is awful that they see only darkness and despair, allowing or encouraging them to kill themselves (what do you think legalization is?) is basically saying, "Yes, it is hopeless. You can't be helped, so I agree that you should kill yourself.

Then you have missed the point completely and there is no need to you and I to continue the discussion AND you did not answer my questions about directly dealing with depression.
 
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I read the first few lines of the article. I could feel my blood pressure rising. It's sickening and sad that anybody would allow a 17 year old girl to do this to themselves, or worse, help her do it.
I haven't read every post in this thread. I was too disgusted. I can't believe anybody is FOR this . This was a 17 year old girl. I understand...she was living in a hell. But there are ways out of that hell. You guys that are all for this, imagine if it was your 17 year old daughter. Would you just sit back, raise a glass to her, and say cheers? BAM!! She's dead. I bet not.
I think about my own daughter, and it just makes me sick.
 
What question? That they don't want to be helped?

My brother-in-law is currently living on the streets in Pensacola. He doesn't want to take his anti-psychotic medication that controls his schizophrenia. He wants everyone to send him money so he can drink and gamble and sink further away from reality. He isn't cut off from us because we don't love him. He's cut off because we do love him. He has a bed open to him in a facility whenever he wants it with all his meds and medical care already paid for. The moment he gets picked up by the cops he will be forced to go there. It's all already been arranged, but we're not going to feed his mental illness or enable him to stay in his own world. When he wants to join ours, or he becomes a danger to himself or others it's all ready to go.

No, he doesn't want the kind of help we have on open offer. He wants help to get worse, and he wants us to feed his illness.
 
When healthcare is "free" it's a lot cheaper to kill the patients than to treat them. Follow the money in a failing socialist hellhole.
An extremely good point and the basis for the fear of socialized medicine. Re: the “death panels” argument.
While it may be superfluous to the topic, I find that I cannot condone suicide, legal or otherwise, in any form and I’m happy to explain.
I believe it is one of the most selfish acts done by mankind. Zero consideration to the effects on others.
Before the flames begin, yes I have personal experience with the after effects.
For the individual that takes that route the games over, at least from our comprehension of it and leaving out religious or metaphysical connotations. They have for all intents and purposes bailed.
Where it seems to have its most rippling effects is through the family members.
We’ve dealt with 40 some years of counseling, drugs, depression and so on that have occurred and can be directly traced to a family members suicide. I deal with the aftershocks every damn day.
Due to that I will never, regardless of political considerations or any other be in favor of it so I will admit any comments I have made on this thread will be influenced by that.
As I try to maintain a positive attitude through the day and generally in life and fight for every second I’m given I simply cannot get my mind around it. (Doesn’t mean I don’t fly off pissed at stuff though)
After dealing with the aforementioned family issues for years I find it difficult if not impossible to wish any suicide RIP.
 
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One over ridding assumption is that the person wants to be treated. Not trying to be a wise ass but have you dealt with true depression? I hope not but if you have then you know that is a daily struggle and NOTHING makes it better but time and drugs. The drugs dull every aspect of your life and numb you to every daily experience, that is not a life, that is an existence. Time will make things better but being a truly depressed person means that anything can happen and trigger those feelings and you are right back to where you were. Of course life is not easy not fair (which is a trite argument in this example) but dealing with real depression is a full time job.

Making euthanasia legal does ONE very important thing and that it is allows a person to die with dignity and on their terms. I am not touting the virtues of making euthanasia legal and there are caveats to this, as other posters have pointed out. BUT people should be allowed that choice as long as they are mentally well enough to make the decision. No one knows what someone else's life is like unless they live it themselves.

You understand.

Sometimes not even time helps.
 
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I do not suffer from depression, but I have seen it up close and personal. I found out just how deep it is within, how a person can hide the symptoms and effects. I found out how insidious and sneaky this condition is.
I also found out that when someone close to you commits suicide how it changes the lives of so many, forever.
I found out the person suffering can be successful, put on a everything is ok act, have children who need them, co-workers and friends who value them.
I found out just how determined and violent a person suffering from depression can be to themselves to end their life.
For all these reasons the assisted suicide of this young lady makes me sick.
It is true some people can not be helped, but I sure wish I had more of a chance, any chance to help more. In any case providing as much help, support and love must be the strongest effort.
The alternative sucks on many levels.
 
Do the reading before you offer smart alek answers. Perhaps you know more than Soc and Plato? Its not poison if it helps you. There are two types of ergot. One causes gangrene, one causes visions of higher realms.

They didnt do it frivolously, they did it in a highly structured environment with much preparation. Respectfully, do the reading, or dont but dont act as though you know it all if you havent.


Nothing smart alek (Alec) intended.

I agree with your historical anecdote and up it by bringing up the theory that the Salem witch trial hysteria was the result of ergot infected bread that caused people to hallucinate and lose it.

If I wanted to be a smart Alec Id say something like does Socrates recommend the hemlock cordial?
 
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My problem, what has me thinking about this, why it disturbs me.....

Im more of this persuasion and I think humanity will achieve more if this was the attitude to promote...

Do not go gentle into that good night
Dylan Thomas - 1914-1953

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.



Life is not easy but its better than the alternative.

If you are going to give it up strive to have it mean something.
 
Nothing smart alek (Alec) intended.

I agree with your historical anecdote and up it by bringing up the theory that the Salem witch trial hysteria was the result of ergot infected bread that caused people to hallucinate and lose it.

If I wanted to be a smart Alec Id say something like does Socrates recommend the hemlock cordial?
Fuck him. That's what you get for "corrupting youts"!
 
Nothing smart alek (Alec) intended.

I agree with your historical anecdote and up it by bringing up the theory that the Salem witch trial hysteria was the result of ergot infected bread that caused people to hallucinate and lose it.

If I wanted to be a smart Alec Id say something like does Socrates recommend the hemlock cordial?

Yeah, I thought you were referring meant that they were killed by the ergot, rather than by fools who saw them being 'different'.
My problem, what has me thinking about this, why it disturbs me.....

Im more of this persuasion and I think humanity will achieve more if this was the attitude to promote...

Do not go gentle into that good night
Dylan Thomas - 1914-1953

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.



Life is not easy but its better than the alternative.

If you are going to give it up strive to have it mean something.

Apparently some thin "Not always". YOu never knows what pain, emotional or physical another is carrying.

Are you familiar with Robert Service? My father gave me the volume of his collected works. Heres one that always seemed to apply close to home.

THE MEN WHO DON’T FIT IN by Robert Service (1874-1958)
menwhodont

THE MEN WHO DON’T FIT IN
by Robert Service (1874-1958)
There’s a race of men that don’t fit in,
A race that can’t stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
They range the field and they rove the flood,
And they climb the mountain’s crest;
Theirs is the curse of the gypsy blood,
And they don’t know how to rest.
If they just went straight they might go far;
They are strong and brave and true;
But they’re always tired of the things that are,
And they want the strange and new.
They say: “Could I find my proper groove,
What a deep mark I would make!”
So they chop and change, and each fresh move
Is only a fresh mistake.
And each forgets, as he strips and runs
With a brilliant, fitful pace,
It’s the steady, quiet, plodding ones
Who win in the lifelong race.
And each forgets that his youth has fled,
Forgets that his prime is past,
Till he stands one day, with a hope that’s dead,
In the glare of the truth at last.
He has failed, he has failed; he has missed his chance;
He has just done things by half.
Life’s been a jolly good joke on him,
And now is the time to laugh.
Ha, ha! He is one of the Legion Lost;
He was never meant to win;
He’s a rolling stone, and it’s bred in the bone;
He’s a man who won’t fit in.
;)
 
Fuck him. That's what you get for "corrupting youts"!

Interesting thought. So anyone who thinks for themselves, or has the audacity to stand up against the machine, is no good?

Edited because after thinking on it, it was likely sarcasm...I hope.

:rolleyes:
 
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I'll just leave this here....

“I judge you unfortunate because you have never lived through misfortune. You have passed through life without an opponent—no one can ever know what you are capable of, not even you.” – Seneca

Sometimes (almost always actually) the struggle is the point...
 
Aren't you the one always saying, "follow the money" @Maggot ?

When healthcare is "free" it's a lot cheaper to kill the patients than to treat them. Follow the money in a failing socialist hellhole.

Like this poor girl?
I was waiting for someone to say this.

Notice the article said "compulsory mental health care facilities".

She was institutionalized by the state and felt like a criminal who was imprisoned. That's part of what pushed her to end it all. Big pharma, Big Government.

Do I feel she made the right decision? No. But, she's in a different country with different rules and all that jazz. The fact children as low as 16 do not need parental consent to do what she did is a bit insane to me.

We are inching closer to Soylent Green which I fully anticipate to happen in 50 years or so.
 
Yeah, I thought you were referring meant that they were killed by the ergot, rather than by fools who saw them being 'different'.


Apparently some thin "Not always". YOu never knows what pain, emotional or physical another is carrying.

Are you familiar with Robert Service? My father gave me the volume of his collected works. Heres one that always seemed to apply close to home.

THE MEN WHO DON’T FIT IN by Robert Service (1874-1958)
menwhodont

THE MEN WHO DON’T FIT IN
by Robert Service (1874-1958)
There’s a race of men that don’t fit in,
A race that can’t stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
They range the field and they rove the flood,
And they climb the mountain’s crest;
Theirs is the curse of the gypsy blood,
And they don’t know how to rest.
If they just went straight they might go far;
They are strong and brave and true;
But they’re always tired of the things that are,
And they want the strange and new.
They say: “Could I find my proper groove,
What a deep mark I would make!”
So they chop and change, and each fresh move
Is only a fresh mistake.
And each forgets, as he strips and runs
With a brilliant, fitful pace,
It’s the steady, quiet, plodding ones
Who win in the lifelong race.
And each forgets that his youth has fled,
Forgets that his prime is past,
Till he stands one day, with a hope that’s dead,
In the glare of the truth at last.
He has failed, he has failed; he has missed his chance;
He has just done things by half.
Life’s been a jolly good joke on him,
And now is the time to laugh.
Ha, ha! He is one of the Legion Lost;
He was never meant to win;
He’s a rolling stone, and it’s bred in the bone;
He’s a man who won’t fit in.
;)


Great poem!

Hadnt heard of him.

Kind of Kiplingesque.
 
I was waiting for someone to say this.

Notice the article said "compulsory mental health care facilities".

She was institutionalized by the state and felt like a criminal who was imprisoned. That's part of what pushed her to end it all. Big pharma, Big Government.

Do I feel she made the right decision? No. But, she's in a different country with different rules and all that jazz. The fact children as low as 16 do not need parental consent to do what she did is a bit insane to me.

We are inching closer to Soylent Green which I fully anticipate to happen in 50 years or so.
It (the road toward soylent green) has started with the recent legalization and eventual normalization, and later expectation of composting the dead as an alternative to burial/cremation.
 
Even more important now is just who the fuck allowed the bill to be used in that fashion??? When it was first started, it was exclusively meant for terminally ill persons who had been suffering intolerable and incurable physical pain due to their ailments. Who the fuck expanded it into this clown show?
Because forced "euthanasia" of certain people that the powers that be do not like will be the ultimate goal. The only thing is, by the time that happens, the ones really being "euthanized" ain't gonna be the victims. Hopefully a lot more folks gonna be ready to boogie. Unlike the people living under the Nazis and the Soviets...

Well guess what, as another poster mentioned... "Forced Euthanasia" AKA Murdering the elderly instead of caring for them is ALREADY happening.

It’s already happening. In the Netherlands you can make an “advanced directive” about when you want to die. Well, this one lady changed her mind and found out that life was worth living in spite of the pain of the disease she had. Her whole family had to hold her down while the doc killed her as she was pleading for her life. It was a news story a while ago.

It's why the whole respect for life needs to be kept.
You start saying it's okay to kill unborn babies because it's economically or emotionally inconvenient....
Next as actually In New York, it's maybe okay to kill just born babies if you changed your mind about letting them live....

Before long you are up to killing the elderly for economic and convenience reasons...

And it will be your "doctors" and your so called "Family" all in on the killing of you.
 
One of the many things I despise about assisted suicide is that it further victimizes victims of trauma instead of addressing the predators in the world that caused so much of the suffering these individuals are dying to escape. Assisted suicide targets a vulnerable population of the mentally ill especially those with depression and personality disorders many of whom are chronically suicidal but get better with good therapy. In the moment, with poor judgement and insight they choose to die and those who took an oath to help and to heal now choose to help kill their most vulnerable patients.
 
Great poem!

Hadnt heard of him.

Kind of Kiplingesque.
YOuve probably heard this one...I used to be able to quote it.

The Cremation of Sam McGee
BY ROBERT W. SERVICE
There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold;
The Arctic trails have their secret tales

That would make your blood run cold;
The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,

But the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge

I cremated Sam McGee.

Now Sam McGee was from Tennessee, where the cotton blooms and blows.
Why he left his home in the South to roam 'round the Pole, God only knows.
He was always cold, but the land of gold seemed to hold him like a spell;
Though he'd often say in his homely way that "he'd sooner live in hell."

On a Christmas Day we were mushing our way over the Dawson trail.
Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold it stabbed like a driven nail.
If our eyes we'd close, then the lashes froze till sometimes we couldn't see;
It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee.

And that very night, as we lay packed tight in our robes beneath the snow,
And the dogs were fed, and the stars o'erhead were dancing heel and toe,
He turned to me, and "Cap," says he, "I'll cash in this trip, I guess;
And if I do, I'm asking that you won't refuse my last request."

Well, he seemed so low that I couldn't say no; then he says with a sort of moan:
"It's the cursèd cold, and it's got right hold till I'm chilled clean through to the bone.
Yet 'tain't being dead—it's my awful dread of the icy grave that pains;
So I want you to swear that, foul or fair, you'll cremate my last remains."

A pal's last need is a thing to heed, so I swore I would not fail;
And we started on at the streak of dawn; but God! he looked ghastly pale.
He crouched on the sleigh, and he raved all day of his home in Tennessee;
And before nightfall a corpse was all that was left of Sam McGee.

There wasn't a breath in that land of death, and I hurried, horror-driven,
With a corpse half hid that I couldn't get rid, because of a promise given;
It was lashed to the sleigh, and it seemed to say: "You may tax your brawn and brains,
But you promised true, and it's up to you to cremate those last remains."

Now a promise made is a debt unpaid, and the trail has its own stern code.
In the days to come, though my lips were dumb, in my heart how I cursed that load.
In the long, long night, by the lone firelight, while the huskies, round in a ring,
Howled out their woes to the homeless snows— O God! how I loathed the thing.

And every day that quiet clay seemed to heavy and heavier grow;
And on I went, though the dogs were spent and the grub was getting low;
The trail was bad, and I felt half mad, but I swore I would not give in;
And I'd often sing to the hateful thing, and it hearkened with a grin.

Till I came to the marge of Lake Lebarge, and a derelict there lay;
It was jammed in the ice, but I saw in a trice it was called the "Alice May."
And I looked at it, and I thought a bit, and I looked at my frozen chum;
Then "Here," said I, with a sudden cry, "is my cre-ma-tor-eum."

Some planks I tore from the cabin floor, and I lit the boiler fire;
Some coal I found that was lying around, and I heaped the fuel higher;
The flames just soared, and the furnace roared—such a blaze you seldom see;
And I burrowed a hole in the glowing coal, and I stuffed in Sam McGee.

Then I made a hike, for I didn't like to hear him sizzle so;
And the heavens scowled, and the huskies howled, and the wind began to blow.
It was icy cold, but the hot sweat rolled down my cheeks, and I don't know why;
And the greasy smoke in an inky cloak went streaking down the sky.

I do not know how long in the snow I wrestled with grisly fear;
But the stars came out and they danced about ere again I ventured near;
I was sick with dread, but I bravely said: "I'll just take a peep inside.
I guess he's cooked, and it's time I looked"; ... then the door I opened wide.

And there sat Sam, looking cool and calm, in the heart of the furnace roar;
And he wore a smile you could see a mile, and he said: "Please close that door.
It's fine in here, but I greatly fear you'll let in the cold and storm—
Since I left Plumtree, down in Tennessee, it's the first time I've been warm."

There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold;
The Arctic trails have their secret tales

That would make your blood run cold;
The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,

But the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge

I cremated Sam McGee.
 
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I'll just leave this here....

“I judge you unfortunate because you have never lived through misfortune. You have passed through life without an opponent—no one can ever know what you are capable of, not even you.” – Seneca

Sometimes (almost always actually) the struggle is the point...

Great quote, and I agree. Never the less, for some, the struggle becomes too much. I respect a well thought out choice, regardless of what others may think.
 
Some of us just can't live in the present world we have created which is so different from the world humans adapted to live in so may centuries ago. Money, power, control, exploitation. Some of us just can't live in this mess after being brutalized by other humans and controlled by The Powerful and The Rich and the Abusers.

This is not a normal world anymore and those who don't fit or conform are shouted and beaten down.

I can't judge this young woman but I do empathize with her and her pain and inability to survive. Rest in Peace. I have always wondered what would be my fate if I were not quite as strong as I am now. If I had to live as she had lived with no Hope of Peace, Love, or Normality I shudder to think of what choice I would make.

It kills me that modern humans can be so sad and beaten Spiritually that death is preferable to another day of anguish. How have we come to this? I just shake my head and grieve for young people and the world as it is. I have no idea how they will go forward.

VooDoo
 
I know someone that tried to commit suicide because of the scripts he was taking. Luckily he was saved at the last minute by our great police and firefighters. He told me once he was determined to do it, nothing was going to stop him. So with that being said, if someone is going to commit suicide they’re gonna find a way to do it. The way I see it, it beats them involving innocent people. It beats them jumping into traffic, suicide by cop, or whatever method they come up with. I don’t condone what this poor girl did, but at least she died in a dignified way and without involving unsuspecting people. I don’t think it’s right or the right answer, but I’m not here to judge people. That’s between them and their maker. I could be totally off base here, but it’s my $.02.
 
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This is Candy Land compared to the dark and ignorant landscape of history. For most of human history life was short, ugly, brutal, and almost always ended violently. Fewer people probably killed themselves because all their energy had to be focused on just surviving.


You win the Orson sir!
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This is Candy Land compared to the dark and ignorant landscape of history. For most of human history life was short, ugly, brutal, and almost always ended violently. Fewer people probably killed themselves because all their energy had to be focused on just surviving.


You know Malthus - the father of the democrats and Communism

Locke had it right about the world - the individual tends toward the good - but he hedged his bet with the right to self defense.
 
Bottom line is, who has the right to decide that for you? Its your life and really its the only thing you have that is absolutely yours.

Some folks may not like what I'm about to say. Nevertheless, our lives don't belong to us. They belong to God Almighty.

It's hard for Americans to wrap their heads around that concept because we have all grown up and been use to the concept of individual freedom to choose. That freedom doesn't come from the government. It comes from our Creator.

That very concept was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

So if anyone has a beef with the fact that God doesn't give those rights then they better be ready to pee on the founding fathers' graves.

We are given "certain unalienable Rights." The signers didn't say we had unlimited rights just "certain" rights.

God gives us the freedom to make our own decisions. If He didn't He'd have a bunch of mind-numbed robots to worship him. Think about yourself for a second; would you want someone to love you cause they had to or because they wanted to?

The Lord of lords and King of kings is no different. He gives us the power to choose Him or not to choose Him. Nobody is ever going to be dragged, kicking and screaming into Heaven. The other place will be full of people that chose to be there by voluntarily rejecting the Gift that God the Father gave us in His Son.

If you doubt God's love then ask yourself this; are there some people that you would give your life for? For most of us that answer might be a short list of people we dearly love.

Now if you are asked to give up your child's life for someone else; that list just disappeared. God gave his Son as a payment for violating His regulations on His installation.

So no matter how miserable life is; God has allowed us to be there for a reason. We will probably never know the reason this side of eternity but there is a reason.

I have had friends and relatives in wheel chairs and were invalid. My own mother was one of them. Everyone of them was a blessing and encouragement to me. My only regret is that I didn't tell them that enough.

And everyone of them enjoyed life and enjoyed people. They loved to encourage people. If anyone of them had a right to be depressed; these people did. Yet, they told me how thankful they were for what they had.

It made me feel real small when I heard them speak. This poor girl was probably never told the truth that God loves her and has a purpose for her. I will never know what she went through and won't pretend to know how she felt.

Nevertheless, I've been through my share of personal tragedies. I've never been on a battlefield but there have been people who have tried to kill me. I'm also fortunate that I never lost any teeth from the fights and beatings I endured when younger.

All that misery has taught me is that I never want to treat another human being that way AND it has taught me that there is always a better day.

Only God has the right to chose when our lives will end.

"I know, LORD, that our lives are not our own. We are not able to plan our own course." - Jeremiah 10:23

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own."
- 1 Corinthians 10:19

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." - Proverbs 26:9

"For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's."
- Romans 14:8

"But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine." - Isaiah 43:1


"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

So who has the right to decide whether you live or die? It's not you because it isn't your life in the first place. God gives us the power to make our own decisions but not the consequences of those decisions.
 
You know Malthus - the father of the democrats and Communism

Locke had it right about the world - the individual tends toward the good - but he hedged his bet with the right to self defense.
I’ve never heard that. Have you read that he influenced Marx and Engels?

In his day his observations/theories were correct for a feudalistic, subsistence society. Malthus, however, didn’t see the industrial revolution coming. He couldn’t imagine fat poor people who ALL lived with a standard of living that would make his king seem like a pauper. Our poorest people have a standard of living that dwarfs the previous 10,000 years.

Most of all, a century later, he couldn’t see that people in the land of plenty would have fewer and fewer children till the entire developed world was well below replacement levels, and some would become so critical it isn’t survivable.

Seems his theories only work in undeveloped and poor countries where food and starvation are the primary concerns. Once wealth and plenty, as as extreme as they are in a free country, come to all pretty much everything reverses, and population decline becomes a concern.

Locke did have it right from start to finish.