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Form 1 supressors mass denial.

Maxduty

Maxduty

Quae Moriatur
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Mar 8, 2014
    1,880
    4,137
    Oklahoma
    blog.princelaw.com

    Update on Diversified Machine Products

    It has been some time since my last article on this issue and I know many people have continued to watch for updates, both here and across the various forums that have been discussing this issue on…
    blog.princelaw.com blog.princelaw.com

    Looks like just having the parts is illegal possession of an unregistered silencer now.
     
    • Wow
    Reactions: 338dude
    I never purchased anything from Diversified Machine. However, if I did, I would have destroyed the parts as outlined by the ATF (crushing, shredding, melting). If I were to submit a Form 1 and make a silencer after approval by the ATF, I would not have used parts purchased from Diversified Machine because those parts would have been destroyed prior to submitting the Form 1. If I purchased anything from Diversified Machine I would let my attorney make all public statements on my behalf.

    Maybe resubmit your disapproved Form 1? I suspect the blanket denial was made in error.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: HollywoodActual
    I saw something about this on the GOA's instagram account. I don't think it's just the DM products... I think they're just denying ALL Form 1 cans now, from the way it sounded. If so, that is REALLY overstepping their damn boundaries with refusing to approve a law-abiding citizens' 2A rights. It's time to abolish the ATF and completely repeal the NFA and the Hughes Amendment. It's beyond time, but now they're outright denying citizen's their rights? Who TF do they think they are???
     
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    I had intended to build a silencer using a quietbore kit, but it was denied today with the explanation that the parts I was starting with already constitute a suppressor. And I don’t think they asked what parts I was starting with. Seems like they don’t allow form 1 suppressors at the moment.
     
    phlegethon said:
    I had intended to build a silencer using a quietbore kit, but it was denied today with the explanation that the parts I was starting with already constitute a suppressor. And I don’t think they asked what parts I was starting with. Seems like they don’t allow form 1 suppressors at the moment.
    Click to expand...

    This is troublesome. Either they consider a threaded pipe a suppressor, or anything resembling the cups, even without holes. Either is a gross overstep.
     
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    There are some posts about this on the NFA subreddit. It appears to be a policy shift that hasn’t been announced or explained and will not doubt end up in litigation. But it does sound like all form 1s for suppressors are being denied now.
     
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    Both of my pending form 1 builds received the same disapproval reason that pretty much says, if you even have the parts you are now in violation of federal law. Received disapproval overnight.
     
    M4orturnate said:
    How many rights are we going to allow to be taken? At what point do we say no? The federal government is nothing but a burden to the tax payer. Has the government or its entities improved your life ever? In any way?
    Click to expand...
    Well, yeah, the federal government has done countless things to improve my life, from creating and funding the system that allowed for my education to creating and maintaining the highways, overseeing commercial aviation, the postal service until the recent sabotage, preventing foreign invasion, funding large parts of the healthcare system…so yeah this is a bad move by ATF but I really don’t want to live in Somalia either.
     
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    • Haha
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    phlegethon said:
    Well, yeah, the federal government has done countless things to improve my life, from creating and funding the system that allowed for my education to creating and maintaining the highways, overseeing commercial aviation, the postal service until the recent sabotage, preventing foreign invasion, funding large parts of the healthcare system…so yeah this is a bad move by ATF but I really don’t want to live in Somalia either.
    Click to expand...
    All at a cost much higher than if done privately. The government is the reason all the things you listed cost as much as they do. Invasion? From who? Evrn without a standing army i highly doubt it.
     
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    M4orturnate said:
    All at a cost much higher than if done privately. The government is the reason all the things you listed cost as much as they do. Invasion? From who? Evrn without a standing army i highly doubt it.
    Click to expand...
    Yep, totally, that’s why so many other countries have completely privatized their governments.
     
    So, Im guessing that every machine/fabrication shop that has tubing and solid round is now in violation of federal law? Metal suppliers now need ffls and transfer fees for buying metal stock? Too broad of a rule to be effective.
     
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    Reactions: gigamortis and Mrindecisive
    Quietbore immediately canceled and refunded my order on request, for whatever that’s worth.
     
    This is a mess. Been following it for a couple days on form1. There has been a decent amount of input there; enough to deduce that the disapproval is not limited to DM customers. Or ANY solvent companies customers for that matter. People who haven't even ordered raw material have received this.

    QB is one of the key players here, IMO. When they got pinched, they made a policy change.

    QB sold solvent traps: when they got in bed with the feds, their inventory alone gave them enough to go after all of F1 market. The parts, types, shapes, locations, uses, etc., all sold under one roof. Then, they required an approved F1 for purchase; effectively luring their customer base into VOLUNTARILY admitting what the parts would be used for. Bingo. There's your intent.

    They got out of the hot seat, by helping toss all of the F1 world into the fire. No doubt it has helped set precedent for the garbage were seeing now.

    It also pisses the crown off, when they don't have full control. Like an evil step-parent. Lots of records and such involved with F4; not as much with F1
     
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    While I don't agree with NFA period, I doubt any of us do. This isn't surprising to me, and the ATF hints at it in the denial that everyone is getting. Unlike say an 80% frame, where a firearm technically is only one single part, you can have all of the other parts but until that 1 part (say a frame) passes a threshold you don't have a firearm, any part used for a supressor is considered the supressor.

    With these supressor kits/solvent tanks, I've yet to see a single kit that requires the user to machine or modify every part of it. So just having to drill a hole in a couple parts isn't "manufacturing". Go apply for a machinist job and put on your resume that your only skill is drilling a hole, see if you get hired. Once companies started providing full kits and marketing them as form 1 solutions, where only some parts needed modification it was only a matter of time.

    We keep seeing it, some in the industry want to keep pushing the boundaries, pistol "braces", binary triggers, bump stocks, "solvent tanks" etc. As with any exploited loophole, exploit it too much and someone tightens the loop. Manufacturers make tons of $ doing it, think how many pistol braces have been sold the last few years, and if the ATF clamps down on them, the manufacturers don't care they made their $.
     
    I guess I can't buy oil filters for my truck anymore because someone, somewhere punched a hole in theirs...

    Crock of shit.
    Go after the people that refuse to fill out and pay for the form 1.
     
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    What I have a real problem with is I can have a roll of duct tape and a water bottle and look at them and say "I could build a suppressor out of these parts." Am I now committing a felon? By their legal definition my intent is to take these parts and build a suppressor. Just like any form 1 kit on the market. They're making it illegal to think.

    Frankly, the fact that there are not more folks out there making a bigger deal out of this is surprising to me. If you own a form 1 can that means they're going to, at the minimum, make you swap it over to a form 4 and wait. Meanwhile, your once legal muffler now makes you a felon that can serve 10 years.

    Don't even get me going what this is going to do to pistol braces, form 1 SBR, etc. If there is a slippery slope we are headed to bottom and apparently not many give a fuck.
     
    Last edited:
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    Hoyter87 said:
    What I have a real problem with is I can have a roll of duct tape and a water bottle and look at them and say "I could build a suppressor out of these parts." Am I now committing a felon? By their legal definition my intent is to take these parts and build a suppressor. Just like any form 1 kit on the market. They're making it illegal to think.

    Frankly, the fact that there are not more folks out there making a bigger deal out of this is surprising to me. If you own a form 1 can that means they're going to, at the minimum, make you swap it over to a form 4 and wait. Meanwhile, your once legal muffler now makes you a felon that can serve 10 years.

    Don't even get me going what this is going to do to pistol braces, form 1 SBR, etc. If there is a slippery slope we are headed to bottom and apparently not many give a fuck.
    Click to expand...
    Based on previous videos from the guy posted above (Washington Gun Law), approved Form1 cans are approved. This sounds like a "great reset." Deny everything and start over. I mean, where on the Form 1 do you state the materials from which you are making the can? I can't Form 4 pipe and caps from Lowes. And, while I don't have the machinery to mill parts from raw stock, there are people that do. If one were going to cut the parts from raw billets of metal, a Form 1 IS the appropriate form. And, and, Quiet Bore was requiring Form 1 approvals before shipping kits, so one doesn't even need to be in possession of any materials to make a can before getting approval. I foresee a lot of litigation and then a "walk back," though it will take a few years... Maybe a new congress can slap the taste out of the ATF's mouth, but I doubt it.
     
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    hlee said:
    Based on previous videos from the guy posted above (Washington Gun Law), approved Form1 cans are approved. This sounds like a "great reset." Deny everything and start over. I mean, where on the Form 1 do you state the materials from which you are making the can? I can't Form 4 pipe and caps from Lowes. And, while I don't have the machinery to mill parts from raw stock, there are people that do. If one were going to cut the parts from raw billets of metal, a Form 1 IS the appropriate form. And, and, Quiet Bore was requiring Form 1 approvals before shipping kits, so one doesn't even need to be in possession of any materials to make a can before getting approval. I foresee a lot of litigation and then a "walk back," though it will take a few years... Maybe a new congress can slap the taste out of the ATF's mouth, but I doubt it.
    Click to expand...

    I was going to say exactly what you just said. I didn't because I wanted to see if anyone else had the same observation that I did.

    On the Form 1, all you put down is the model designation & serial number, caliber and length of the suppressor. You could do the same thing with a sweet potato.

    So how do they know what parts you have to begin with.

    A machinist could start with a bar of round stock and start from scratch on his form 1 can.
     
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    Asking for approval is really just a formality and good faith gesture.

    Like asking a kid, "Do you mind if I date your mother?"
     
    I have read that the instructions on the form will change; and users will have to submit a plan of action/schematic
     
    • Wow
    Reactions: stefan73
    Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

    This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

    E23BE6FA-4072-4E9D-8A09-1213FA36AD4E.jpeg
     
    • Angry
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    Lots of little component makers out there making storage tubes and dividers and end caps.
     
    2aBaCa said:
    Lots of little component makers out there making storage tubes and dividers and end caps.
    Click to expand...
    Not any more. Lol. I only know of one, with a functional site right now. They've all bowed out, until there is a clear decision released

    ETA; I'm not checking any of them, I have machine tools. This has been learned from following the discussion
     
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    Lawless said:
    Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

    This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

    View attachment 7819285
    Click to expand...
    This is consistent with what I had assumed, which is that the ATF believes that the kits are too close in form and intent to being silencers. in other words they are not 80% lowers, they are like 99% lowers. I suspect that reasoning will hold up in the end, and the kit makers will be a thing of the past.
     
    AMGtuned said:
    Not any more. Lol. I only know of one, with a functional site right now. They've all bowed out, until there is a clear decision released

    ETA; I'm not checking any of them, I have machine tools. This has been learned from following the discussion
    Click to expand...
    Oh shit you're right. The ones I know of are stuck on error loading page.
     
    I'll bet the next shoe that is about to drop is that the ATF is going to go after QB and all the rest of the F1 "kit" suppliers and make them hand over all their files and run them out of business then start threatening everybody that ever bought anything from them.
     
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    Lawless said:
    Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

    This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

    View attachment 7819285
    Click to expand...
    “Since parts are not just parts”

    I have no words for this, it goes beyond straining logic and credulity.
     
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    Reactions: Blackwind, Kanwhitetails and stefan73
    So, what does this do to end caps and mounts made for factory built suppressors? If an end cap/mount/tube/baffle/etc is a suppressor, are we going to transfer all of these items on Form4s?
     
    wade2big said:
    You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants.Fuck you, ya fuck’n stupid fuck..
    Click to expand...
    wade2big said:
    You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants. That’s a fucked up thing to say.
    Click to expand...
    Given, we’re doing our damndest to follow their communist/tyrannical rules, FUCK YES! Fuck you! That’s exactly what we want,
     
    Time to use their definitions... “From my cold dead hands” typically applies to firearms.

    I read 3 lines of the QB conversation before I had to stop out of frustration that QB would ask and that the ATF give such insane answers
     
    hlee said:
    So, what does this do to end caps and mounts made for factory built suppressors? If an end cap/mount/tube/baffle/etc is a suppressor, are we going to transfer all of these items on Form4s?
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for depriving me of another couple hundred $$$ this week before shit goes that dumb
     
    why did they all of a sudden decide to go after form1 builds? (rhetorical question, i know the answer is because they can).

    its not like they aren't getting their $200 bucks for the stamp. i could at least see the mental gymnastics with braces because they weren't getting their $200 for SBR's anymore.

    but seriously this just doesn't pass the smell test for me. maybe my tinfoil is too tight but who was losing money in this? its always about the money
     
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