It takes a *ton* of data to be able to set them based on environmentals. You’ll rarely see a top F class guy adjusting tuner in a match.
- Thread starter Dthomas3523
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It takes a *ton* of data to be able to set them based on environmentals. You’ll rarely see a top F class guy adjusting tuner in a match.
Agreed, but I don’t think the goal of a tuner is necessarily to produce better results... we all know that there is no substitute for a properly tuned load.
That said, I do think the tuner could have some merit in simplifying/expediting the load development process. At least that’s how I am justifying it. Maybe too as a last line of defense/emergency adjustment if for some reason a load were to go to shit just before or during a match.
But again, point being that it should be used in conjunction with proper LD techniques and not as a substitute for them.
Just get multiple suppressors and tune it that way. LOL. Think I listened to a podcast where Jerry Karloff tuned his barrels and load that way. Just tried a few different cans till the groups tighten up.
Unless they're desperate
lol. I haven’t seen it, but I’ve heard it’s a shit show when it happens.
Also, it keeps being brought up. This does work with a suppressor. Same idea with brake. Either put your qd or direct thread suppressor in front of the tuner and go.
Of course if you shoot unsuppressed or with a different can, the settings will be different as you’ve changed the barrel weight and such.
Of course if you shoot unsuppressed or with a different can, the settings will be different as you’ve changed the barrel weight and such.
It would be super easy to thread the area behind the muzzle and run two weighted jamb nuts.
Yes it would.
Moving them in calibrated, repeatable amounts, maybe not so much.
Moving them in calibrated, repeatable amounts, maybe not so much.
Products - Lowey
Shooting products and rifle products for smallbore and air rifle
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For people in Australia, we have been doing it for years. Surprised PTC hasnt used one before he left us.
Thats almost exactly what I want but instead I want it integrated into the 419 adapter itself instead of sandwiched in between.
Would save on special machining done to cheap prefits.
has anyone seen a effect better or worse when first attaching a tuner
just wondering if the initial addition of weight is a benefit
then surpassed by the actual tuning
for all those who have "tuned" how far out has the weight been moved
wondering if its the extra weight, "lengthening of the barrel", combination of both
whats the thread pitch
if its just the weight the we need to figure out the "added" weight per rotation or adjustment mark
there has to be math in there somewhere
just wondering if the initial addition of weight is a benefit
then surpassed by the actual tuning
for all those who have "tuned" how far out has the weight been moved
wondering if its the extra weight, "lengthening of the barrel", combination of both
whats the thread pitch
if its just the weight the we need to figure out the "added" weight per rotation or adjustment mark
there has to be math in there somewhere
I don’t think it’s the added weight as much as it is moving mass on the barrel. You’d get same effect if you could somehow move barrel mass around. Since we can’t, we attach something to moved.
Likely going to be on the harmonic/barrel whip side of the house.
This particular tuner only has .050” of available travel. So it doesn’t take much to change up the harmonics.
And I’m sure there is some better or worse when first attaching it. Just like a magnetospeed bayonet. Some see their groups open and others see them tighten.
Some tuner designs use additional weight. How much, where, what material, etc. is subject to considerable debate. There is some argument that longer barrels might respond better to tuners in general (more flex to begin with).
Some tuner designs - like Cortina's original version - add no weight, at least in the original design. It was designed around a 1.250"straight cylinder 32" barrel on an F-Open rifle, and when machined and installed correctly, you had to look pretty close to even tell there was one installed at all - the tuner was literally the same diameter as the barrel contour. Therefore, you were only adjusting the position of the weight at the end of the barrel, not adding any weight to the gun (since unlike PRS, F-class guns do have weight limits that are enforced at the bigger matches). That was literally the big draw to the Cortina tuner originally - that it *didn't* add an extra 4-6 oz of weight to the gun.
When people started using them on FTR guns, where the weight limits are even tighter, and a 30" heavy Palma or heavy Varmint contour about as much as you can get away with even with aluminum or titanium actions, rings, etc. you started seeing the same 1.250" diameter tuner, but tapered down to match the barrel contour. Some of that is offset by the material that is removed from the muzzle for the install process. So they did add some weight - not a lot, but some. Maybe a couple ounces. Doesn't sound like much, but in any sport with rules some people gotta ride the razor's edge.
But to the question as to whether initially adding weight helps/matters - I think sometimes it does. I've had a barrel or three over the years that shot lights out with a brake, or a suppressor installed, but with a bare muzzle they shot like crap (or at best, 'meh').
Typically you find there is at least one spot somewhere in one revolution (as mentioned above, maybe 50 thou of travel) that is noticeably better - and they do tend to repeat. Generally I do my load development with the tuner bottomed out at '0', and then once everything is as good as I can get it thru normal means, I take that load and start playing with the tuner. I think *one* time I actually ended up right back at '0' as the best performing spot.
I've also seen where people found a shaft collar at the hardware store that was a slip fit over their barrel, and used that to tune with. IIRC they used the tail of a pair of calipers to measure the distance from the muzzle, and secured it with set screws. Other people have used hi-temp O-rings stacked on the barrel a few inches back - add them two at a time til the groups start getting smaller, then when they start getting bigger, remove them one at a time. It doesn't take much. If you're intrigued by the concept and want to test the waters without having your gun permanently modified, it might be an option worth trying.
Some tuner designs - like Cortina's original version - add no weight, at least in the original design. It was designed around a 1.250"straight cylinder 32" barrel on an F-Open rifle, and when machined and installed correctly, you had to look pretty close to even tell there was one installed at all - the tuner was literally the same diameter as the barrel contour. Therefore, you were only adjusting the position of the weight at the end of the barrel, not adding any weight to the gun (since unlike PRS, F-class guns do have weight limits that are enforced at the bigger matches). That was literally the big draw to the Cortina tuner originally - that it *didn't* add an extra 4-6 oz of weight to the gun.
When people started using them on FTR guns, where the weight limits are even tighter, and a 30" heavy Palma or heavy Varmint contour about as much as you can get away with even with aluminum or titanium actions, rings, etc. you started seeing the same 1.250" diameter tuner, but tapered down to match the barrel contour. Some of that is offset by the material that is removed from the muzzle for the install process. So they did add some weight - not a lot, but some. Maybe a couple ounces. Doesn't sound like much, but in any sport with rules some people gotta ride the razor's edge.
But to the question as to whether initially adding weight helps/matters - I think sometimes it does. I've had a barrel or three over the years that shot lights out with a brake, or a suppressor installed, but with a bare muzzle they shot like crap (or at best, 'meh').
Typically you find there is at least one spot somewhere in one revolution (as mentioned above, maybe 50 thou of travel) that is noticeably better - and they do tend to repeat. Generally I do my load development with the tuner bottomed out at '0', and then once everything is as good as I can get it thru normal means, I take that load and start playing with the tuner. I think *one* time I actually ended up right back at '0' as the best performing spot.
I've also seen where people found a shaft collar at the hardware store that was a slip fit over their barrel, and used that to tune with. IIRC they used the tail of a pair of calipers to measure the distance from the muzzle, and secured it with set screws. Other people have used hi-temp O-rings stacked on the barrel a few inches back - add them two at a time til the groups start getting smaller, then when they start getting bigger, remove them one at a time. It doesn't take much. If you're intrigued by the concept and want to test the waters without having your gun permanently modified, it might be an option worth trying.
Not specifically related to tuners in general per se, but a particular sub-variant that uses some exotic material technology. The PDF in the linked page is a long-ish read, but if you're curious, might be interesting.
Hi,
Next up...bringing back the days of adding the rubber compound into the flutes of your barrel to dampen the vibration.....
Sincerely,
Theis
Next up...bringing back the days of adding the rubber compound into the flutes of your barrel to dampen the vibration.....
Sincerely,
Theis
It's definitely a matter of picking the pepper out of the fly poop... and as some have mentioned, whether or not it's really worth it for field and/or positional shooting is probably questionable at best. But, some people like to have their guns running as best they can, regardless.
Me, personally... I probably lose more points due to wind than I do whether or not I have a tuner on the gun... and that's on my F-class guns!
Me, personally... I probably lose more points due to wind than I do whether or not I have a tuner on the gun... and that's on my F-class guns!
I have a Browning A-Bolt II with a BOSS system. It’s a great way to tune your rifle to your ammo. The problem is the rifle is for hunting and you should not shoot it without hearing pro.
I took up reloading (tuning ammo for rifle) and added a suppressor onto the rifle instead, which I greatly prefer.
I took up reloading (tuning ammo for rifle) and added a suppressor onto the rifle instead, which I greatly prefer.
how many positions (i know its threaded so its infinite) per revolution at .050+/- lengthening per revolution
10 positions would make lengthen the barrel .005 per position
2 revolutions per position lengthens the barrel .1" etc
just playing with excell for a minute to see how much weight is "added" per position on the average tuner (using 6oz for a number currently)
10 positions would make lengthen the barrel .005 per position
2 revolutions per position lengthens the barrel .1" etc
just playing with excell for a minute to see how much weight is "added" per position on the average tuner (using 6oz for a number currently)
25 marks... I usually go in increments of 2 i.e. '0', '2', '4' etc. and then tweak it to the nearest 1 i.e. 10 or 11.
That's where I'm at with this.
I think this is an interesting discussion, and the principal has some merits. But time and money can be better spent elsewhere in our sport for the majority of us.
I can see how some people would be drawn to this, and it would have some benefits for a small fringe group of people in our community. I see this playing a niche role at best.
Can't say I've ever couldn't get a rifle/barrel not shoot with minimal load workup. Besides when I experimented with RDF's, that was a nightmare. For shooting factory ammo I could potentially see it, but I know I always had my chambers setup to shoot specific factory ammo, and I would be surprised if others on here weren't doing the same. For those that aren't specifying chamber specs, are they going to be spending more money to have another set of threads cut and their barrel profiled to fit a tuner in hopes of getting some factory ammo shoot better? I really doubt it.
Maybe I'm wrong, and tuners will blow up in the sport and the leaderboards will be full of people running tuners and give people a competitive advantage. But honestly, I see this only playing a very niche role with a small group of shooters.
Hi,
Tuners are really not for the guys that "tune" via their reloading...barrel tuners are for those that absolutely HATE reloading and would rather just "tune" our rifle to the ammunition on hand.
For example:
My "tuned" reloads do not help me at all when xyz entity says we use this factory ammo right here; show me the results in your rifle.
Sincerely,
Theis
Tuners are really not for the guys that "tune" via their reloading...barrel tuners are for those that absolutely HATE reloading and would rather just "tune" our rifle to the ammunition on hand.
For example:
My "tuned" reloads do not help me at all when xyz entity says we use this factory ammo right here; show me the results in your rifle.
Sincerely,
Theis
I can see that, but the OP definitely not one that hates reloading, quite the opposite from what I can tell
I can see if people are shooting a bunch of different types of ammo through their rifle, this would be an easy way to dial them all in.
My experience with a tuner was done on the Ghost Dancer 260's 28" L-W barrel. I built my own out of hardware store objects. I made damned sure to only test it midweek, when nobody else was likely to be at the range; it looked ludicrous.
It was crude and tentative; also effective. Maybe it was too effective. The design was flawed (way too much mass, and the adjusting system was primitive), and I simply wasn't geared up to make a better one. The good news was that the primitive adjuster was designed to leave the barrel totally unaltered.
My takeaways were that it went out of tune as the weather conditions changed. I had intended to use it as a means to coordinate barrel harmonics with minimal velocity deviation. I had hoped it would allow tuning with less bore wear. When it did work it was astoundingly accurate, like .2 to .4 MOA at 200yd; but it never worked the same the next time out.
A larger mass requires smaller adjustments and vice-versa. A system with a smaller mass and larger adjustments allows for better refinement; except that it probably also makes the system more vulnerable to environmental changes (???). The devil is in the adjusting and how many rounds of bore life get wasted in the process.
The inability to hold tune ended up with my expending a lot more rounds than I had envisioned, and it likely would have been a large impediment to bore life. I removed it and moved on.
Were I to revisit this, I would use about 1/3 a much mass, or even less; and employ an adjuster system that was permanent.
I believe that the ideal tuner is actually a combination of two; with a large mass for gross tuning, and a small one for fine tuning. I think in terms of a pair of cylinders that are threaded together with a locking nut, and that combination threaded onto the barrel with (a) setscrew(s) to arrest the larger mass.
I really like the Harrell's AR Tuner Brake, except for one thing; it's a brake.
All I'd really need it to be is a tuner.
Greg
It was crude and tentative; also effective. Maybe it was too effective. The design was flawed (way too much mass, and the adjusting system was primitive), and I simply wasn't geared up to make a better one. The good news was that the primitive adjuster was designed to leave the barrel totally unaltered.
My takeaways were that it went out of tune as the weather conditions changed. I had intended to use it as a means to coordinate barrel harmonics with minimal velocity deviation. I had hoped it would allow tuning with less bore wear. When it did work it was astoundingly accurate, like .2 to .4 MOA at 200yd; but it never worked the same the next time out.
A larger mass requires smaller adjustments and vice-versa. A system with a smaller mass and larger adjustments allows for better refinement; except that it probably also makes the system more vulnerable to environmental changes (???). The devil is in the adjusting and how many rounds of bore life get wasted in the process.
The inability to hold tune ended up with my expending a lot more rounds than I had envisioned, and it likely would have been a large impediment to bore life. I removed it and moved on.
Were I to revisit this, I would use about 1/3 a much mass, or even less; and employ an adjuster system that was permanent.
I believe that the ideal tuner is actually a combination of two; with a large mass for gross tuning, and a small one for fine tuning. I think in terms of a pair of cylinders that are threaded together with a locking nut, and that combination threaded onto the barrel with (a) setscrew(s) to arrest the larger mass.
I really like the Harrell's AR Tuner Brake, except for one thing; it's a brake.
All I'd really need it to be is a tuner.
Greg
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That has me wondering.
For those that do currently use tuners, do they always stay in tune? Or do you have to adjust it frequently or infrequently? If you do have to adjust it, what variables cause the tuner to become out of tune?
For those that do currently use tuners, do they always stay in tune? Or do you have to adjust it frequently or infrequently? If you do have to adjust it, what variables cause the tuner to become out of tune?
Mine generally stays set where it was, unless there is some major change in components to where I'm basically starting over with load development, etc. It's held tune from Washington to North Carolina to Arizona to Ontario CA.
BR guys may do some fiddling depending on environmental conditions; some of them also (used to, dunno about current) tweak their loads based off DA.
BR guys may do some fiddling depending on environmental conditions; some of them also (used to, dunno about current) tweak their loads based off DA.
My 'detuning' may have had its origin in a tuning/mounting system that depended on a rubber sleeve (about 4" of narrow bicycle tire tube stretched onto the bare barrel), then using a large nut (threaded pipe coupler) screwed onto the rubber sleeve. The actual coupler was a small allowance larger ID than the muzzle OD.
If you can imagine me wandering around the fittings department at Tractor Supply with a distant look on my face, you'll get the idea how this project got hatched.
It wasn't the most stable of designs; but it worked well enough to be a proof of concept, and had the added attraction that when it was disassembled, it left no evidence it had ever been there.
The family BR guys (my two Elder Brothers) were my initial mentors back in the days when chambers were SAAMI, and F/L dies were "it".
But as the sport developed, BR turned into a brand of Voodoo that drove me screaming into the woods. I also developed the unfortunate habit of biting through my pipe stems, so there you have it...
Greg
If you can imagine me wandering around the fittings department at Tractor Supply with a distant look on my face, you'll get the idea how this project got hatched.
It wasn't the most stable of designs; but it worked well enough to be a proof of concept, and had the added attraction that when it was disassembled, it left no evidence it had ever been there.
The family BR guys (my two Elder Brothers) were my initial mentors back in the days when chambers were SAAMI, and F/L dies were "it".
But as the sport developed, BR turned into a brand of Voodoo that drove me screaming into the woods. I also developed the unfortunate habit of biting through my pipe stems, so there you have it...
Greg
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Here’s what tuner looks like on a brux mtu contour with a fat bastard gen 3 brake.
Having a straight taper 6.5x47 with straight taper EC Tuner being spun up as well.
Woa woa woa. You going backwards in caliber selection! 6 dasher to 6GT to 6x47L to 6.5x47L, you got a .260 coming down the pipe soon?!
Hopefully not. But everyone should have a 6.5x47
Everything I read about the X47 cartridges, make it seem that it’s tough to load for?
Can you get the same velocity /accuracy vs a 260 (most can get a touch more out of a 260 than a creedmore)
Is Lapua factory match Ammo good enough for the X47 class.
Can you get the same velocity /accuracy vs a 260 (most can get a touch more out of a 260 than a creedmore)
Is Lapua factory match Ammo good enough for the X47 class.
You need to put whatever you read about X47s out of your brain.
Every day I shoot my 6x47, I am more convinced that anyone who says they’re finicky just doesn’t know wtf they’re doing. I literally have to try to find loads that don’t shoot or produce minuscule spreads. It’s that easy. And that’s across a couple of barrels.
Some will complain about barrel life, limited brass options, “dOEsn’T DO anYtHiNG a CreEd WoN’T dO” yada yada. I do think some of that notion had some merit when you were having to neck down/form brass, but with headstamped stuff available at this point I would highly suggest forming an opinion for yourself before listening to what some internet chat board dudes say about it.
Same idea for a tuner. People are for or against them because of what they read and nothing else. Not directed at you specifically @brianf, people in general just need to do a lot more and read a lot less.
6.5x47 is known as the “BR of 6.5’s” as its very easy to load for and inherently accurate (hate that term, but they really do shoot well). A lot of people would suggest 6.5x47 if you could only own one caliber.
The “finnicky” part comes from 6x47. This is due to all the bastard reamers out there. Even the sizing dies are different from maker to maker. My Redding 6x47 die gets extremely tight about halfway down a fired case. By my Redding 6.5 and my Forster 6x47 dies fit and size it properly. Many reamers make the case slightly smaller than a 6.5 and also have tight necks.
I’m running a reamer that retains all the dimensions of a 6.5x47 and has a .275 neck. It’s very easy to load for.
For those wondering about adjusting the tune 'on the fly', there's a thread on another forum where someone mentioned a rule of thumb of 'down and out' i.e. as the temperature goes down, turn the tuner out, and as the the temperature goes up, turn it back in. Not talking large amounts - maybe one or two marks if that (depending on the size of the increments).
Obviously it's something you'd want to test *a lot* before relying on it in a match. Might have to play with it myself, just to see
Obviously it's something you'd want to test *a lot* before relying on it in a match. Might have to play with it myself, just to see
I’m very much in favor of everyone shooting a match I’m at changing the settings on their tuners as they day goes one.
Change often. Once a stage at least.
Change often. Once a stage at least.
Hi,
So everyone needs a sticker that says "return to zero" not only on their scope but their tuners too!!
That way they never start a stage with last stage "tuning".
Sincerely,
Theis
Been saying this would start catching on in PRS.
So it begins:
So it begins:
Cool to see that MPA is picking it up.
I'm still curious to see if this is something that sticks or if it's going to be a flash in the pan like barricade blocks/wedges.
What would concern me is the retention method. I hate grub screws. If those come loose, your groups and shooting will go to shit in a hurry. Could be something that works against you. Our sport is a lot harder on equipment then F-class and benchrest.
I personally don't like the idea of adding another failure point on a rifle, particularly one that can quickly change how the rifle shoots with very small changes. Same reason why I don't like the idea of most "switch barrel" setups.
Anyways, I'm really curious to see where this gear trend goes in PRS/NRL.
I'm still curious to see if this is something that sticks or if it's going to be a flash in the pan like barricade blocks/wedges.
What would concern me is the retention method. I hate grub screws. If those come loose, your groups and shooting will go to shit in a hurry. Could be something that works against you. Our sport is a lot harder on equipment then F-class and benchrest.
I personally don't like the idea of adding another failure point on a rifle, particularly one that can quickly change how the rifle shoots with very small changes. Same reason why I don't like the idea of most "switch barrel" setups.
Anyways, I'm really curious to see where this gear trend goes in PRS/NRL.
If the threads are machined correctly, it doesn’t move. It’s a very tight fit. I haven’t had it move with or without the screws.
But, I also clean every 2-300rnds. Which means the muzzle brake is removed. So I take the time to make sure the tuner is still in the correct location. Thus far, it’s never moved. I think anyone that is serious enough to use one is likely checking their system all over (action screws, scope mount, brake, etc) before shooting a match. I’m sure someone won’t and it’s will bite them in the ass.
The last club match I won, it was by 1pt. I was able (lucky?) to hit the 1/2 moa on the kyl rack. IMO, this is where small attention to detail in loading or using things like a tuner benefit. Not very often, but when it does, it’s of great benefits.
I don’t think these will take off in a massive way, but I do think you’ll see them in increasing numbers.
Different models have different methods of locking. Some have hard point set screws, some have jam-nut setups, etc. I think part of why Erik's model has been as successful as it has been is due in part to using some nylon tipped set screws, so you can snug them up to where it doesn't turn on its own... but you don't have to go fishing for a tool every time you want to move it.
The first one I got, I sent the barrel to him to have it installed. The second, I took to a local gunsmith to have done, figuring it can't be that complicated in the overall scheme of things. Granted, this was way before there were *any* install instructions included, and the gunsmith machined the entire length w/ a 5/8-24 thread. I'd never taken it off the old barrel, so I didn't know any better. He never tried putting it on, as he'd never messed with a tuner before. Luckily I tried threading it on there in the shop before I left - it went on a little ways, and stopped. Pulled it off, fiddled with it, looked inside and saw the 'straight' section. So, the gunsmith chucked the barrel up in the lathe, and turned down the threads in that area to where the tuner would fit. Looked fugly, but hey, it's going to be hidden under the tuner, so no biggy, right?
Wrong. That damn thing two-grouped worse than anything I'd ever seen in my life. Two shots in one hole, then another couple 3/4-1 moa away. Luckily it was a factory barrel (that had shot pretty well before this) that at that time was zero cost to me. That straight section on the install is there for a reason, as an alignment pad for support. Don't fuck it up.
The other thing that I predict you'll see if tuners become more prevalent will be people claiming that 'someone moved my tuner' when they suddenly can't hit anything on a stage.
The first one I got, I sent the barrel to him to have it installed. The second, I took to a local gunsmith to have done, figuring it can't be that complicated in the overall scheme of things. Granted, this was way before there were *any* install instructions included, and the gunsmith machined the entire length w/ a 5/8-24 thread. I'd never taken it off the old barrel, so I didn't know any better. He never tried putting it on, as he'd never messed with a tuner before. Luckily I tried threading it on there in the shop before I left - it went on a little ways, and stopped. Pulled it off, fiddled with it, looked inside and saw the 'straight' section. So, the gunsmith chucked the barrel up in the lathe, and turned down the threads in that area to where the tuner would fit. Looked fugly, but hey, it's going to be hidden under the tuner, so no biggy, right?
Wrong. That damn thing two-grouped worse than anything I'd ever seen in my life. Two shots in one hole, then another couple 3/4-1 moa away. Luckily it was a factory barrel (that had shot pretty well before this) that at that time was zero cost to me. That straight section on the install is there for a reason, as an alignment pad for support. Don't fuck it up.
The other thing that I predict you'll see if tuners become more prevalent will be people claiming that 'someone moved my tuner' when they suddenly can't hit anything on a stage.
There's a few out there that already have this feature incorporated.
They don't have quite the same refinement/finesse of tune or range as some of these purpose built tuners though, apparently.
