Groups hitting to the right. Trying to figure out what changed.

hidaro

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BCM 5.56 upper. Was hitting PERFECTLY on target a few weeks ago and tonight when I went shooting with same ammunition I was hitting anywhere from 0.25-1.0" right consistently. This has been an issue I've had with 3 different uppers and 4 different optics so it's not my rifle.

The only things that have changed since last range session:

New BCG - but I was going from a mint condition NiB BCG to a mint condition DLC BCG so no change to mass.

Bipod instead of front bag. I'm loading rifle a bit more as a result, but besides that no change to form.

Different seating position (I was at a different range). Cheek weld and trigger discipline remained same.

Considering I've had this behavior with a bunch of different rifles it HAS to be something I'm doing.. but I can't think of it besides going to a bipod and getting a different BCG which shouldn't affect POI.

Also, just to make sure you all understand I don't believe my POI is wandering. Everything on my rifle is torqued to spec.
 

alamo5000

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I thought everything on my rifle was torqued to spec too. Then I went home and found out my scope mount was loose. It wasn't every screw, but just a couple of the front ones had worked loose just a little bit. But it was enough to throw shots out to the right.
 

hidaro

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I thought everything on my rifle was torqued to spec too. Then I went home and found out my scope mount was loose. It wasn't every screw, but just a couple of the front ones had worked loose just a little bit. But it was enough to throw shots out to the right.

I've got witness marks, they're holding tight
 

hafejd30

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    Everything you did can cause a variation. If you want to ID the issue swap back one at a time at range and check.

    I’d start with the BCG. Then the rest

    Also check scope parallax
     
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    Molon

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    BCM 5.56 upper. Was hitting PERFECTLY on target a few weeks ago and tonight when I went shooting with same ammunition I was hitting anywhere from 0.25-1.0" right consistently. This has been an issue I've had with 3 different uppers and 4 different optics so it's not my rifle.

    The only things that have changed since last range session:

    New BCG - but I was going from a mint condition NiB BCG to a mint condition DLC BCG so no change to mass.

    Bipod instead of front bag. I'm loading rifle a bit more as a result, but besides that no change to form.

    Different seating position (I was at a different range). Cheek weld and trigger discipline remained same.

    Considering I've had this behavior with a bunch of different rifles it HAS to be something I'm doing.. but I can't think of it besides going to a bipod and getting a different BCG which shouldn't affect POI.

    Also, just to make sure you all understand I don't believe my POI is wandering. Everything on my rifle is torqued to spec.

    That's what's known as "a clue."

    Any time that you alter the recoil vector, there's the possibility that the point of impact will be affected.

    ...
     
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    alamo5000

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    I've got witness marks, they're holding tight
    That's still not 100%. I've seen situations where a scope was mounted and a piece of debris was underneath it by accident. Eventually it worked it's way loose.

    Similar things have happened under other circumstances as well.

    It might not be the problem but it is worth it to use tools to verify it that way.
     

    hidaro

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    That's what's known as "a clue."

    Any time that you alter the recoil vector, there's the possibility that the point of impact will be affected.

    ...

    I don't see how using a bipod instead can be an issue, you never hear of people needing to adjust their zero because they decide to shoot off a barricade, or are shooting prone vs supported etc. Sure I'm loading it now but shouldn't load cause upward deflection instead of consistent right? Remember I had like 8 groups today all to the right.
     
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    OREGUN

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    Um…literally EVERYTHING you mentioned could have the reported effect.

    You changed a major moving component of the rifle.

    You changed the recoil impulse by going from bag to bipod…the competitive shooting forum is FULL of “my zero moves when I go from prone to barricade to tripod”.

    You changed your inputs on the rifle when you changed seats.

    What about more clothes because it’s cold? That would carry across all the rifles. Do some dry fire to make sure you aren’t flinching (and generally because it’s good practice). Parallax adjusted out? Good fundamentals?

    Practice more. 🤷‍♂️
     
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    hidaro

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    Squeezing to hard with your hand, relax your grip accept the recoil.

    How does that make sense if I was able to be on target a few weeks ago? I didn't change how I grip my rifle.

    Um…literally EVERYTHING you mentioned could have the reported effect.

    You changed a major moving component of the rifle.

    You changed the recoil impulse by going from bag to bipod…the competitive shooting forum is FULL of “my zero moves when I go from prone to barricade to tripod”.

    You changed your inputs on the rifle when you changed seats.

    What about more clothes because it’s cold? That would carry across all the rifles. Do some dry fire to make sure you aren’t flinching (and generally because it’s good practice). Parallax adjusted out? Good fundamentals?

    Practice more. 🤷‍♂️

    Those things you mentioned I feel would be more appropriate for someone trying to chase 0.2" groups. Not someone who's rifle is now hitting 1.4" right at 100y.
     

    eklarsen

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    Happens to everyone at some point, anticipating the recoil makes you grip the rifle. Try it out I bet it solves your issue. It is just a subtle thing; you are likely not even conscious of it. I will bet you a dollar.
     

    hafejd30

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    OP you’re absolutely correct. Swapping everything out shouldn’t affect the zero.

    Next I’d swap the barrel and see if it’s still 1.4” to the right…….

    Swap stuff back and you’ll figure it out. Could be something as simple as your parallax is off and your cheek rest on the gun is pushing you off.

    You say it’s not the rifle because you had the same issue with 3 uppers and 4 different optics. That leaves one very common thing that causes issues like this

    YOU
     
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    OREGUN

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    You said .25-1.0” Which is, I’ll bet, well within your normal dispersion.….so you normally shoot an 1” group around the aiming point and now it’s shifted .25” right which makes your outliers appear to be 1.25” right.

    Still, your change in seat alone could make a shift that size…as could everything els. But you seem convinced it’s not anything you could have done or be doing so, whatever man.
     

    Aftermath

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    BCM 5.56 upper. Was hitting PERFECTLY on target a few weeks ago and tonight when I went shooting with same ammunition I was hitting anywhere from 0.25-1.0" right consistently. This has been an issue I've had with 3 different uppers and 4 different optics so it's not my rifle.

    The only things that have changed since last range session:

    New BCG - but I was going from a mint condition NiB BCG to a mint condition DLC BCG so no change to mass.

    Bipod instead of front bag. I'm loading rifle a bit more as a result, but besides that no change to form.

    Different seating position (I was at a different range). Cheek weld and trigger discipline remained same.

    Considering I've had this behavior with a bunch of different rifles it HAS to be something I'm doing.. but I can't think of it besides going to a bipod and getting a different BCG which shouldn't affect POI.

    Also, just to make sure you all understand I don't believe my POI is wandering. Everything on my rifle is torqued to spec.
    This is a fighting rifle and I want to retain BDC for agility.

    Is this the "fighting rifle with the BDC reticle"?
     

    hidaro

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    You said .25-1.0” Which is, I’ll bet, well within your normal dispersion.….so you normally shoot an 1” group around the aiming point and now it’s shifted .25” right which makes your outliers appear to be 1.25” right.

    Still, your change in seat alone could make a shift that size…as could everything els. But you seem convinced it’s not anything you could have done or be doing so, whatever man.

    I took the measurements from the center of each group and measured distance from bullseye. Center of each group was anywhere from 0.25 to 1.0" away, the upper end being (at least to me) significant and cannot be explained by something simple like changing seating position.
     

    hidaro

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    Happens to everyone at some point, anticipating the recoil makes you grip the rifle. Try it out I bet it solves your issue. It is just a subtle thing; you are likely not even conscious of it. I will bet you a dollar.

    I tried a few different grips tonight to rule that out
     

    nn8734

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    Take it to the range a few more times and shoot the same target you used previously. Eventually the impact pattern will resemble a face emoji.

    You will be able to pinpoint the problem based on the type of face emoji you make on the target.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • I tried a few different grips tonight to rule that out
    If you’re shooting acceptable groups for the rifle and for what you’re used to I’d say don’t try to find out why your poi moved just adjust the scope and keep shooting. Maybe you were pulling it left before and now you’re not.

    I will say that “loading” into the bipod/rifle is a terribly misunderstood concept and absolutely will create horizontal movement if you do it wrong. There are 1000 wrong ways to do it and one or two right ways to do it. Considering you don’t even have to do it to shoot well I’d say forget it completely. I use this meme to show my distain for the phrase….
    72C80BA0-BA7D-4FDB-A884-A674F8821807.jpeg


    There’s no reason to lean into or push on the rifle. Pull the rifle into your shoulder. Make sure your shoulder is relaxed. Anchor the rifle into your body rather than anchoring your body into the rifle.
     

    Molon

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    I don't see how using a bipod instead can be an issue, you never hear of people needing to adjust their zero because they decide to shoot off a barricade, or are shooting prone vs supported etc.

    anim_rolleyes-2614272.gif



    Observations on the Points of Impact of Statistically Significant Shot-Group Sizes


    The Set-up

    For this ballistic exercise I used a semi-automatic precision AR-15 with a 20” stainless steel Lothar-Walther barrel. This barrel has a 223 Wylde chamber with a 1:8” twist rate. This Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 has produced 10-shot groups with extreme spreads measuring in the “sixes” (0.6xx inches) when fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads. Prior to the beginning of this exercise, this barrel had approximately 2,040 rounds fired through it.



    lothar_walther_barrel_03-1964553.jpg



    lothar_walther_control_load_01_measured-1964554.jpg



    The ammunition used for this exercise was factory loaded Black Hills red-box 223 Remington ammunition seated with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing with a cannelure. Since I had been testing other ammunition with the Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 prior to the beginning of this exercise, as well as throughout this exercise, I fired three “seasoning rounds” of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition to condition the bore of the Lothar-Walther barrel with the powder used in this factory load. This process was repeated immediately prior to shooting each of the groups evaluated for this exercise.


    black_hills_box_01_resized-1964552.jpg



    All of the shooting for this ballistic exercise was conducted from a concrete bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The Lothar-Walther barrel used in this exercise was free-floated in a LaRue Tactical railed free-float handguard. The free-float handguard of the AR-15 rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest (with the help of a Sinclair forend bench-rest adaptor) while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shield was used. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.


    benchrest_krieger_rifle_02_JPG-1417517.jpg



    The Wind Probe.


    wind_probe_25_resized-1417521.jpg



    Some of the variables that I purposely did not control for during this exercise were barrel temperature, ammunition temperature and the amount of barrel fouling present at the time that each group for this exercise was fired. I also did not make any sight adjustments to accommodate the changes in the ambient temperature and humidity that occurred during the elapsed time between each of the groups fired for this exercise.


    The Groups


    After firing the three “seasoning rounds” of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition, I settled-in and fired a 20-round group of the aforementioned ammunition. The group is pictured below. The center of the 20-round shot-group is located in the lower-right quadrant of the two inch circle on the target. After shooting this group, I continued testing other ammunition from the same Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15.



    zeroing_group_01_resized-1964556.jpg



    A little later that day, I fired a second 20-shot group of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition. The second group is pictured below.


    zeroing_group_02_resized-1964557.jpg



    As you can see, the center of the second 20-shot group showed no significant shift whatsoever in its location on the target as compared to the first 20-shot group. The next image shows the first and second 20-shot groups over-layed on each other using Adobe Photoshop with the blending opacity set at 50%; further illustrating that the centers of the two 20-shot groups showed no significant shift in their locations on the targets.


    overly_zeroing_group_01_and_group_02_res-1964555.jpg



    On an additional trip to the shooting range, I repeated the entire ballistic exercise, just as described above. The findings were the same; the centers of two 20-shot groups fired from the Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 using the same lot of Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition showed no significant shift in their locations on the targets. Nor did the centers of these third and fourth 20-shot groups show any significant shift in their locations on the targets as compared to the first and second 20-shot groups fired in the previous ballistic exercise.


    The graphic below shows all four of the 20-shot groups over-layed on each other, forming an 80-shot composite group. Of those 80 shots, 95% of them are contained in a covering-circle that has a diameter of 0.97 MOA. All 80 shots are contained in an area-of-dispersion (bounding rectangle) that measures 1.08 MOA wide by 1.09 MOA high.



    four_20_shot_groups_overlayed_01_resized-1964562.jpg



    ….
     
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    Aftermath

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    Thank you! Makes sense.I know how to use mil reticle and mil turrets. This is a fighting rifle and I want to retain BDC for agility.
    Is this the "fighting rifle with the BDC reticle"?
    Yes it is, Mr. Fudd
    At least you said Mr.
    If you actually do "know how to use mil reticle and mil turrets", you would
    1) Not be asking the questions you are asking
    2) Understand your BDC is good for only one particular BC/velocity combination
    Wait--lemme get this straight.

    As a "Warfighter" with a "fighting piece of kit" and an experienced "rifleman" you are using strelock to figure our your adjustments from 63 to 100 yards and vice versa?

    On a "fighting" rifle.

    You are woried about 1 click difference.

    Lemme put on my Bear Pit Hat

    1 sec

    MIL or MOA?

    Now granted, I am old, fat, partially blind, never served in the "sandbox" nor train in any "Tier 1" units and I tend to favor my AK over the AR (its got the magnifier!), but I'd say learn to zero at 100, and learn your holds and learn to fucking send it.

    But...but....but MUH BDC!!!!

    Plus the fact you are struggling over 0.2 or 0.3 AT 100(63) YARDS!!!


    (1)Go to the range, Put your dumbass BDC on the target at 100 yards. Fire 5 shots (pick one and ONLY one of your ammo selections)
    (2)Now, take the second ammo selection. put your dumbass BDC on the target (pro tip--aim at the same point) and fire 5 shots.
    (3)Wait for the range officer to call a cease fire (if shooting alone--thats YOU!)
    (4)Pick up a tape measure.
    (5)Walk to the target
    (6)Measure the vertical distance between the groups assuming you haven't hamfisted some 6MOA group with your booger hook.

    (7)Then pull the caps off your scope. Get the instruction manual as well. Figure out if it is MOA or MIL. Also figure out the subtensions in your crosshair.
    (8)Google MOA or MILs to Inches and 100 yards and do mafs
    (9)Now using that magnificient pience of warfighting kit, MEASURE THE DISTANCE IN THE SCOPE.
    Your answer should match. If it doesn't go back to 2nd grade and learn basic math
    (10) You passed basic math. Now take the number from step 8 and 9. Take that number and divide it by the value of 1 click. (be careful--it could be 0.1, 0.25, or even 0.5!--if division is hard, multiply by 10, 4 or 2)
    (11) You now have your offset. Notice, we did not zero the rifle. We just looked at the POI of the groups.
    (12) Bonus exercise: 15 points if you can explain why your BDC won't work at long distance for 55gr
    (13) who the fuck has a 63 yard range?
    YOU really have no clue, and there is nothing really wrong with that. We were all there at one point.

    It comes down to ignorance vs stupidity.

    Ignorance is bliss. Ignorant means the person is uninformed. They do not know. They are ignorant.

    Stupidity is when the person is informed yet continues to act ignorant.

    YOU, have been shown the way, in 2 different threads, by quite a few different posters. You are no longer ignorant.

    Go be agile with your fighting rifle.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • anim_rolleyes-2614272.gif



    Observations on the Points of Impact of Statistically Significant Shot-Group Sizes


    The Set-up

    For this ballistic exercise I used a semi-automatic precision AR-15 with a 20” stainless steel Lothar-Walther barrel. This barrel has a 223 Wylde chamber with a 1:8” twist rate. This Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 has produced 10-shot groups with extreme spreads measuring in the “sixes” (0.6xx inches) when fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads. Prior to the beginning of this exercise, this barrel had approximately 2,040 rounds fired through it.



    lothar_walther_barrel_03-1964553.jpg



    lothar_walther_control_load_01_measured-1964554.jpg



    The ammunition used for this exercise was factory loaded Black Hills red-box 223 Remington ammunition seated with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing with a cannelure. Since I had been testing other ammunition with the Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 prior to the beginning of this exercise, as well as throughout this exercise, I fired three “seasoning rounds” of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition to condition the bore of the Lothar-Walther barrel with the powder used in this factory load. This process was repeated immediately prior to shooting each of the groups evaluated for this exercise.


    black_hills_box_01_resized-1964552.jpg



    All of the shooting for this ballistic exercise was conducted from a concrete bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The Lothar-Walther barrel used in this exercise was free-floated in a LaRue Tactical railed free-float handguard. The free-float handguard of the AR-15 rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest (with the help of a Sinclair forend bench-rest adaptor) while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shield was used. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.


    benchrest_krieger_rifle_02_JPG-1417517.jpg



    The Wind Probe.


    wind_probe_25_resized-1417521.jpg



    Some of the variables that I purposely did not control for during this exercise were barrel temperature, ammunition temperature and the amount of barrel fouling present at the time that each group for this exercise was fired. I also did not make any sight adjustments to accommodate the changes in the ambient temperature and humidity that occurred during the elapsed time between each of the groups fired for this exercise.


    The Groups


    After firing the three “seasoning rounds” of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition, I settled-in and fired a 20-round group of the aforementioned ammunition. The group is pictured below. The center of the 20-round shot-group is located in the lower-right quadrant of the two inch circle on the target. After shooting this group, I continued testing other ammunition from the same Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15.



    zeroing_group_01_resized-1964556.jpg



    A little later that day, I fired a second 20-shot group of the Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition. The second group is pictured below.


    zeroing_group_02_resized-1964557.jpg



    As you can see, the center of the second 20-shot group showed no significant shift whatsoever in its location on the target as compared to the first 20-shot group. The next image shows the first and second 20-shot groups over-layed on each other using Adobe Photoshop with the blending opacity set at 50%; further illustrating that the centers of the two 20-shot groups showed no significant shift in their locations on the targets.


    overly_zeroing_group_01_and_group_02_res-1964555.jpg



    On an additional trip to the shooting range, I repeated the entire ballistic exercise, just as described above. The findings were the same; the centers of two 20-shot groups fired from the Lothar-Walther barreled AR-15 using the same lot of Black Hills 69 grain Sierra MatchKing ammunition showed no significant shift in their locations on the targets. Nor did the centers of these third and fourth 20-shot groups show any significant shift in their locations on the targets as compared to the first and second 20-shot groups fired in the previous ballistic exercise.


    The graphic below shows all four of the 20-shot groups over-layed on each other, forming an 80-shot composite group. Of those 80 shots, 95% of them are contained in a covering-circle that has a diameter of 0.97 MOA. All 80 shots are contained in an area-of-dispersion (bounding rectangle) that measures 1.08 MOA wide by 1.09 MOA high.



    four_20_shot_groups_overlayed_01_resized-1964562.jpg



    ….
    Not many ppl will appreciate how ridic hard it is to put that many rounds in the same small area with an AR. That would be a great control group for you or someone else to take the same rifle and move to a bipod and a tactical bag to demonstrate how little influence it takes to move POI around.
     

    Molon

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    Not many ppl will appreciate how ridic hard it is to put that many rounds in the same small area with an AR. That would be a great control group for you or someone else to take the same rifle and move to a bipod and a tactical bag to demonstrate how little influence it takes to move POI around.
    Just the difference between holding the AR-15 in the rest or allowing the AR-15 to free-recoil in the rest can produce a 1" shift in the point of impact at 100 yards.

    ...
     

    bfoosh006

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    If the OP's rifle is still producing the same sized groups, but just a POI shift.. I also would suspect operator error.
    For myself, when changing from a bipod to a bag... I frequently see a POI shift.
    Make sure you are positioning yourself in the same place when at the bench. Even if it is a different bench, adjust your bench position as needed.
    I even take a small cushion to adjust for seat height differences if needed.

    If the scope has a parallax adjustment.. I would recheck that.

    I bet, with a little trial and error, at the bench the OP will figure it out.
     
    Last edited:

    Ledzep

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    I don't see how using a bipod instead can be an issue, you never hear of people needing to adjust their zero because they decide to shoot off a barricade, or are shooting prone vs supported etc. Sure I'm loading it now but shouldn't load cause upward deflection instead of consistent right? Remember I had like 8 groups today all to the right.

    The barrel is mounted into the upper receiver. The upper receiver is a relatively thin aluminum tube that was designed for the use-case of "uber light-weight battle rifle". The optic is mounted to the upper receiver. The handguard is mounted to the upper receiver and connected on the barrel nut that is torqued onto said thin aluminum tube. Materials are NEVER rigid. Rigid is an ideal idea we have in our heads but the real world is never that way.

    Force applied to the handguard deflects the handguard and applies a resultant force on the barrel nut, which applies a force on the front end of the upper receiver. That resultant force causes deflection in the upper and that deflection moves the barrel. It's not a matter of "If" it's a matter of "how much". The deflection in the barrel is DIRECT accuracy loss vs. POA through the scope-- POI shift.

    If you don't believe me, go shoot your AR-15 against various barricades where you can place pressure on the FF tube left, right, up, and down, while maintaining the same POA. Watch the groups move accordingly.

    Uppers like what Seekins and others have beef up the barrel mounting interface and the same amount of force causes less deflection and will be a little more lenient to the shooter being inconsistent. There's also that Springfield Armory Saint Edge where they made the handguard machined into the lower to separate those forces from the barrel mount interface.
     

    kthomas

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    Are you canted/not perfectly straight behind the rifle?

    You may think you are straight behind the rifle, but in actuality you may not be. If you are shooting from a shooting bench, those are designed to put you canted behind the rifle, giving the recoil an avenue to exploit.

    Do you notice the reticle jumps or ends up to one side after each shot?
     
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    DeathBeforeDismount

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    Gotta love the hide.

    An asshole asks for advice.

    5 people tell him exact same thing why this is happening.

    Asshole wants to argue with people who forgot more about shooting than he probably will ever know.

    Then he gets pissy when people tell him to fuck off since he doesn't want to listen.

    If you are incapable if diagnosing a problem yourself, and must go to the internet to ask strangers for solutions; then you do not listening to them and want to argue? You can't even fix your own shit and have the balls to argue?

    OP , thanks for wasting everyone's time.
     

    JoshPutman

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    Gotta love the hide.

    An asshole asks for advice.

    5 people tell him exact same thing why this is happening.

    Asshole wants to argue with people who forgot more about shooting than he probably will ever know.

    Then he gets pissy when people tell him to fuck off since he doesn't want to listen.

    If you are incapable if diagnosing a problem yourself, and must go to the internet to ask strangers for solutions; then you do not listening to them and want to argue? You can't even fix your own shit and have the balls to argue?

    OP , thanks for wasting everyone's time.
    The correct term is "askhole" 😁
     

    Keith E.

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    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 31, 2007
    211
    144
    Eastern N.C.
    OP/New Guy,

    We know that YOU'RE consistent. Consistent in the fact that when you ask questions, you choose to disregard proven, knowledgeable advice. Consistent in the fact that you then get all huffy with the good folks that are trying to help you. From what I can tell, it's obviously the equipment that's the cause of your shooting woes.

    Keith

    P.S. I'd love to have a basement that allowed me to shoot out to 63yds, much less 100yds. Also, turning the fan or HVAC off may help reduce some of the environmental variables.
     

    Dildobaggins

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    Minuteman
    Jun 26, 2020
    886
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    Why ask a question, and the disagree with everyone's answer? They are trying to provide valid points. You switched so many variables at once it could be a problem with one or all.

    You'll probably disagree with what I say, but I often film myself shooting, and I see myself making multiple errors, especially when shooting prone. I have issues making sure I'm square behind the rifle and other things as well.

    Sounds like a user error. Tough pill to swallow for the ego. Ive been here. If you listen to these guys that know what they are doing, you will correct your errors. I did anyway. Still learning too.