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Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

N

Narwhal

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 4, 2010
45
0
Austin, TX
I apologize if this is an inappropriate topic, but just wanted some opinions.

I'm considering a Remington 700p but am hesitant because it has an HS precision stock. I'm new to precision shooting but I recently read that there was some controversy over their advertisement in which they flaunted the endorsement of Lon Horuichi (controversial FBI agent who allegedly targeted innocents in the ruby ridge incident).

I've also read that they treat their workers poorly and generally have some culture problems at the company.

I don't mean to slander HS in any way. I'm just an unbiased consumer looking to buy a good stock, but obviously would feel guilty if all these accusations were true. Can anyone shed some light on the subject for me, is it OK to buy from HS or should the conscience guide me elsewhere. If so, what is a comparably priced stock to slide an SPS-Varmit into?
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

I will get the popcorn this is gonna' be fun
cool.gif
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Two of my rifles have HS Precision stocks and have served me well. I wouldn't get caught up in the rumor/gossip world of the shooting industry. Just my thoughts.

As for stock options, the standard reply will probably start with "how much money do you have
smile.gif
...?"



 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

It is a tough call, but that is something you have to iron out for yourself. I agree that that FBI shooter is a real piece of shit for shooting a kid. I certainly wouldn't have any desire to support him in any way. If the link between HS and him is indeed that strong, and it really bothers you, then stick to your principles and boycott the company for a sound mind. If you find yourself searching for reasons why you should own it, and it sounds like that is the case, then the decision is easy; don't buy the rifle. It will always bother you to the point where you may end up throwing it away or fire selling it for sound mind. In my opinion, I don't see anything good arising if you bought the rifle. It is better to have a clean mind, since you cannot escape your thoughts. Guilt sucks, and it can really ruin something that otherwise brings you joy. Look elsewhere.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Why don't you slander them based on quality? The only stock I've ever used had to be bedded in because the inlet was crooked.

See? That was easy!
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

bought mine before i heard anything about it. dont mean to sound uncaring, but i dont care. i like my stock. i looked it up, i read what the websites said. its a really nice stock
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

To put it simply, if it doesn't bother you to own it, buy it if you like it. If it is giving you grief, by all means stay away from it, regardless of all the accolades granted by anyone else. Stick to your principles and do what is right for you, and disregard criticism from those who are apathetic to your personal inner trauma. Everyone is made differently. It is better to have a clear mind than to allow something rent space in your head because you ignored your gut. You may end up with a nice rifle, but you will be unhappy. You are much better off sticking to your discipline and looking elsewhere. You will be happier this way with no guilt or regret.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Middling quality and questionable associations. I will take a pass, now and forever.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Given your issues over the HS, sounds like you'd be better off looking at an AICS, McM or Manners?
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precisio

Bell and Carlson makes a stock that equals or surpasses the quality of an HS for about the same price, without all the drama.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precisio

i like my HS, i couldnt care less who it is endorsed by. hell the voltswagon beetle was hitlers idea and those things are everywhere

bench
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precisio

I have 2 rifles with hs stocks , never any problems with them and they seem to be repeatable if the stock is removed and installed. If the geometry of the stock is comfortable for you, the aics is good too.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precisio

B&C is better for less NO DOUBT. in fact, the only stocks i have ever had issues with were HS precision. i had one stock that went back to them THREE times and never was right. every time they sent it back, it was cracked. i think they were just painting over it. i wont say i will never own another one, but the deal would definitely have to be right.

chuck
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precisio

I have 2 rifles with HS Precision stocks. The oldest is 1995-ish. If I didn't like them I wouldn't have bought another.

I had a bad experience with B&C also in the 1990s. That's why I don't have any of them anymore. I have been told I remember the bad stuff longer.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Narwhal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm new to precision shooting but I recently read that there was some controversy over their advertisement in which they flaunted the endorsement of Lon Horuichi (controversial FBI agent who allegedly targeted innocents in the ruby ridge incident).</div></div>

hsp used an endorsement from the person in charge of selecting the fbi's sniper rifles. that person just happened to be horiuchi. personally, i'd be proud if a large agency selected my rifles over others. i would probably use that agency's endorsement if it was given to me. on the internet, hsp was treated like they endorsed horiuchi and/or what he has done. if you read the endorsement, this is absolutely not true. i have yet to see any information suggesting otherwise even though it is often suggested.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Narwhal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've also read that they treat their workers poorly and generally have some culture problems at the company.</div></div>

i have not heard this rumor. do you have a link to where you read this?



you are welcome to believe what you wish. keep in mind that remington and savage both deal with hsp. if you believe that hsp is the devil for what ever reason, you must also believe that rifle manufactures that deal with them are also the devil. good luck in your decision.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

I can't speak to their endorsements or corporate culture; but, I do have a Remington 700 VSF in .308 Win with an H-S Precision stock. Their bedding block system is used by the army on their M-24's (or at least it was). However, after having used it for 5 or 6 years now, I don't care for the palm swell. I'd prefer a slimmer grip. And, like nearly all stocks, the length of pull is too short (a personal bias).
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

I have two H&S Precision stocks and like them I also have McMillan stocks too so I can tell the difference. I also have a H&S HTR that is a fine rifle. I bought them before the whole Horiuchi issue came up but I think that wouldn't stop me if I liked a stock. Not a big deal in my book.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Lon is a murdering scum bag - there I said it. Shot an UNARMED woman holding a child. Not exactly a person I would use to represent my company or my products. You can do you what you want but HS will NEVER see any of my money.

I and yes, I called Savage and Remington about using HS stocks when I heard about this. Savage PR guy evene called me back - seems they care about customers. Remington never said a damn word except "thanks for the call (click of hang up)."
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

While I am not enamored with the marketing campaign, my guess was the marketing VP who signed off on it was not aware of Horiuchi's past. I don't know what kind of deal H&S made with Horiuchi. They probably wrote him a "thank you" check and went about their way. I seriously doubt he gets any proceeds based on how many H&S stocks are sold. In that way I don't see the purchase of an H&S stock as supporting him in any way. I was a lot more pissed about this when it first came out and after reading "Cold Zero" and seeing it from the perspective of another HRT Sniper who was on Ruby Ridge. I have since simmered down although I would still like to ask Lon some questions if I ever met him face to face.

I don't really dig the H&S stocks. I will most likely be buying a 700P .300WM soon because I don't really have another choice for a long action, heavy barrel with that finish. The stock will get re-sold as soon as I can afford a AICS 2.0 or one of the other long action.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

1: Buy the PSS
2: Remove the stock
3: Sell it for $150 OBO in the 'For Sale' forum
4: Use the funds you receive to put toward a McMillan($450+/- or so with no frills from the clearance bin on their site)
5: Mount your new PSS into the McMillan stock and go SHOOT!

ps don't look back, don't second guess yourself, and just plain enjoy the frustration/elation/determination/crap that comes with learning and shooting a precision rifle at long ranges for small groups

OH, and NEVER start to reload, it's like crack, you can't stop once you start
grin.gif
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

How can you KNOW whats true and whats not? There are so many ways to slander someone these days that is unverifyable either way. No way I would let it influence my decision in any way. If you like the rifle, buy it and enjoy. If you get it and decide the stock isn't right for you, I highly recommend you look at B & C's Medalists Tac. Life's too short to be sweatin the small stuff.

okie
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mj2evans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lon is a murdering scum bag - there I said it. Shot an UNARMED woman holding a child. </div></div>

On that I agree completely, he should have a seat in the electric chair as far as I'm concerned. I would love to meet that dirt bag face to face one day and "discuss" what happened.

I have an HS stock on my 700 that I purchased because it was the same one we had on our M24s. I like it and it works for me. IMO that's all that really matters. I doubt HS or any other company would knowingly associate themselves with a murderer.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Some of my impressions about the factory workers came from this blog entry and its responses. I just searched horuichi and hs precision on google and it came up.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2008/11/hs-precision-gets-endorsement-by-lon.html

All in all, I'm probably just going to buy a 700P with the HS precision and see how it goes; every company probably has their skeletons in the closet, and at least they still make things in the USA.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper7369</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mj2evans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lon is a murdering scum bag - there I said it. Shot an UNARMED woman holding a child. </div></div>

On that I agree completely, he should have a seat in the electric chair as far as I'm concerned. I would love to meet that dirt bag face to face one day and "discuss" what happened.

I have an HS stock on my 700 that I purchased because it was the same one we had on our M24s. I like it and it works for me. IMO that's all that really matters. I doubt HS or any other company would knowingly associate themselves with a murderer. </div></div>

+1 to both you guys. I can't speculate what HSP knew or didn't know, but to this day, it does still seem as if anyone who sympathizes with Randy Weaver is considered a conspiracy theorist.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

If your going to toss the stock anyway by the cheaper SPS Tactical and put whatever you want on it.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Narwhal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of my impressions about the factory workers came from this blog entry and its responses. I just searched horuichi and hs precision on google and it came up.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2008/11/hs-precision-gets-endorsement-by-lon.html

All in all, I'm probably just going to buy a 700P with the HS precision and see how it goes; every company probably has their skeletons in the closet, and at least they still make things in the USA. </div></div>
here is a comment from the link you provided. i am assuming this is the one you were referring to earlier:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anonymous</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't agree more with you about HS. Being the spouse of a former employee of that Shit of a company you people don't know the half of it. They treat their empoyees like slave lavor (and why not, they are arian supremist who display nazi memorbelia in their homes)paying well under factory wage, They constantly lie to empoyees and customers alike without batting an eye. They lie to OSHA and somehow they get by with it along with the many illegal labor practices they get by with by lying. This is an evil company. I guess this whole endorsement thing is the reason HS would not allow their employees see the 2008 cataloge. It is OFF LIMITS!
</div></div>

i wouldn't put much thought into something an anonymous spouse of an ex hsp employee said. it sure wouldn't be something i would consider when trying to decide if i want to buy a rifle equipped with one of their stocks. ex employees can be bitter and exaggerate things. i have seen that happen first hand a few times.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

I have had H-S Precision stocks both at work and on a personally owned HTR and STR. Every H-S Stock I had including the one on my work gun that I fired about 4 hrs ago have loose sling swivels. I have never seen this on my A-5 or with my TRG-22. I just don't get it. I called H-S and asked them about this and they said it was because the steel swivel being screwed into an aluminum block. Well if it's it an identified problem, it should be addressed. Also the two studs on the front of the stock are too close to mount a Harris bipod and a sling on the other stud.I couldn't care less about it's association with any person, if they work and I can shoot it well, that all that matters, however if there are issues with the function of the stock, I will not buy one again.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

what was the official excuse given for shooting his wife with child in hand? I remember when it first happened they said that the wind blew his shot off at 200 yds. by about 15 feet or something like that?
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

Had 1 that was great and 1 that wasn't worth a shit. In my opinion that makes it a 50/50 chance of getting something good. There are many other companies out there with good reputations, historically better product and no endorsement issues. Id say go McMillan, Manners or McCree and forget you ever heard about HS..

to top it off, they were pretty much assholes when my bad stock came and pretty much told me it was my problem..
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dusty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what was the official excuse given for shooting his wife with child in hand? I remember when it first happened they said that the wind blew his shot off at 200 yds. by about 15 feet or something like that? </div></div>

Read "Cold Zero" by Christopher Whitcomb. There is a chapter about his involvement at Ruby Ridge including the ROE they were issued and why and how it all went down. This is from a HRT Sniper's point of view, not some conspiracy theorist. It's an eye opener. It also goes into the post-incident investigation as well as some of the shenanigans that went down at Waco.
 
Re: Guilt over buying a rifle with an H-S precision?

HS stocks in my experience hold up well.....I personally can't get a good cheek weld and the LTR is real uncomfortable for me. I think the model that looks A5ish.....might work well....but to me I need to have a cheek and butt piece adjustment like the M24's new setup.....othewise sell the stock get another one.

HS made a bad choice with their ad campaign......now winning an FBI contract is a big deal........having a top flight FBI sniper vouching for your product is a big deal.....they chose the wrong guy.

A sniper has to have a superior code of ethics, you often find yourself working alone, without comms. You are the decision maker. Pulling down on a woman with baby in hand is unexcusable. Its murder in 3rd world countries.......it was no mistake.......he is the one that punched that ticket..nobody else. When you take on the role of sniper......you are bound by caling to not obey illegal or immoral orders. I've seen the hearings on this deal and on WACO......sad sad casees.If this guy was ordered to pull down on unarmed woman and children he should have refused. If he was fired he could have written a book and been a true American hero. Donations would have outweighed whatever the FBI would have been paying him.

Derek
 
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