Why we can't have nice things,

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JC0352

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This thread lessens what little draw I did have towards trying 2-day matches. After reading this, I damn sure don’t want to give Shannon Kay a single cent of my money. I love the local matches, but I would love to see more practical matches start up at a local level. The outdoor/practical part of me is drawn to the idea of blind stages, find/range/engage it.

As far as “growing the sport”, how about modified stages for hunters so you can introduce your friends to it without trying to convince them to invest a ton of money? Something that isn’t soul crushing for a guy with a pencil-barrel .30-06/.270 and duplex reticle, limited to maybe 3-4 shots at the most and distances no longer than maybe 350-400 yards. @lowlight mentioned something like that in one of his podcasts so full credit there; I’m not claiming to have any original ideas here. It seems like that could be an easy gateway to get these long time hunters and shooters into the sport.
 

Swoodhouse19

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Very solid points. I think a lot is based on who and where you shoot with that may determine the experience. I think one entity controlling the sport is not ideal. I think options are what will (in the words of my dad) "keep honest people honest" ...I think having some sanction bodies who can bring large events is a good thing and brings some options to shooters who want to compete at a higher level either "full-time" or occasionally. My local matches are open to all, offer a family friendly atmosphere mixed with solid competition. They are my bread and butter and honestly how I have earned the respect of shooters. Great input!
 

Swoodhouse19

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This thread lessens what little draw I did have towards trying 2-day matches. After reading this, I damn sure don’t want to give Shannon Kay a single cent of my money. I love the local matches, but I would love to see more practical matches start up at a local level. The outdoor/practical part of me is drawn to the idea of blind stages, find/range/engage it.

As far as “growing the sport”, how about modified stages for hunters so you can introduce your friends to it without trying to convince them to invest a ton of money? Something that isn’t soul crushing for a guy with a pencil-barrel .30-06/.270 and duplex reticle, limited to maybe 3-4 shots at the most and distances no longer than maybe 350-400 yards. @lowlight mentioned something like that in one of his podcasts so full credit there; I’m not claiming to have any original ideas here. It seems like that could be an easy gateway to get these long time hunters and shooters into the sport.
Something that has worked here is our "Hunter" division which was our Prone division until this year. It introduces shooters to the target engagement process with multiple targets, a little longer time per stage and offers the shooter to pick a position that works for them (bags, bipod, tri-pod etc) and can be done without running out to buy a "tactical" rifle. It is also a great division for the shooter who wants to come shoot, get ready for a hunt or just likes to shoot his guns and challenge him/her self. As far as giving anyone $$$. All sanction bodies collect fees from matches...some per shooter, some per match....But all collect a minimal fee. And it is paid by the MD from the Match fees. Memberships are not mandatory to shoot any of the events. My local matches are $40. And I know employees for PRS and other bodies...and they BUST THEIR HUMPS behind the scenes to make sure things run. This is not about ONE MAN.
 

JC0352

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As far as giving anyone $$$. All sanction bodies collect fees from matches...some per shooter, some per match....But all collect a minimal fee. And it is paid by the MD from the Match fees. Memberships are not mandatory to shoot any of the events. My local matches are $40. And I know employees for PRS and other bodies...and they BUST THEIR HUMPS behind the scenes to make sure things run. This is not about ONE MAN.
I understand. My local matches are in the SE PRS region, and the match directors are awesome people. Some of them are probably even friends with Shannon, and they shoot at K&M a lot. That’s fine and it is what it is.

I’ll continue to pay my match fee and attend these local matches because they’re run well, friendly, inviting and don’t have contrived stages. I have no doubt they could run these matches with the same attendance without the PRS. There’s no prize tables, and people keep coming back because the guys are good people and bust their butts to put on a good match.

That email that went out seems like fucking cancer to the sport, so what I will not do is buy a PRS membership or spend any money at K&M.
 
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lowlight

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    If you are not lazy like the PRS and actually design stages and consider the equipment carried, this is not very hard to figure out.

    Spell it out, a Full Kit for Shooters:

    A full load out consists of the following items

    1 Rear Bag
    1 Front Rest not exceeding 10LBS
    1 Tripod
    1 Pillow not exceeding X” x Y”

    Define a bipod

    9” vs 18” etc just use height

    Then you can break down stages

    Stage 1 through 10 - Full Kit

    Stage 11 through 15 - One bag, one bipod, not other accessories

    Stage 16 through 20 - Open call, secondary accessories included,

    You just map Primary, Secondary, and even you can add Experimental if you want for bigger matches.

    This is the processes that are missing, is that rifle legal, what makes a rifle legal, why do we define equipment, and where do we open and limit their use?

    These are the repeatables, the stuff that might change via event or yearly but really don’t change in the course of an event. This way you can change it, keep people on their toes or if they start to take advantage you can adjust it

    Spelling out a reason way is not bad thing, they use match booklets, if people are just doing what the book say, spell it out out in the booklet.

    It’s a weekend to make a list of how and why you’ll carry X, Y, Z, at any given event, just don’t be lazy
     

    Swoodhouse19

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    The top shooters shoot with one bag. Most don’t use a pillow type bag. They have a solid understanding of the position to get their body in and how their body dictates how their rifle responds. Kinda cool watching the strategy.

    I’m not gonna bite on the other part. But I’ve seen people show up that are used to typical flat ranges carry all their crap and see in my COF I typically don’t allow tripods and limit bags. Lol.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    The top shooters shoot with one bag. Most don’t use a pillow type bag. They have a solid understanding of the position to get their body in and how their body dictates how their rifle responds. Kinda cool watching the strategy.

    I’m not gonna bite on the other part. But I’ve seen people show up that are used to typical flat ranges carry all their crap and see in my COF I typically don’t allow tripods and limit bags. Lol.

    That argument for skill held water when bags weight a few lbs with poly fill, rifles were 16-18lbs max, and forearms weren’t 3-4” wide (be it the chassis or a plate on it).

    Now, with 22lb rifles, 8lb+ sand bags, and 6oz triggers......it’s literally a who can balance rifle and slap trigger the best while making a decent wind call.

    We have progressed into a spot where we have all but taken the shooter out of the equation as far as positions go. Your body used to be part of the position as you were part of the support system.

    Now, there’s nothing “wrong” with what this has evolved to. But, as MD’s and competitors we have to ask ourselves what do we want to test or what do we want to be tested on.
     

    Swoodhouse19

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    I remember the first “pillow” bag I saw at a match. Our former MD and founder of our match had his wife make him a bag...Spider-Man material.
     

    mtruong

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    That argument for skill held water when bags weight a few lbs with poly fill, rifles were 16-18lbs max, and forearms weren’t 3-4” wide (be it the chassis or a plate on it).

    Now, with 22lb rifles, 8lb+ sand bags, and 6oz triggers......it’s literally a who can balance rifle and slap trigger the best while making a decent wind call.

    We have progressed into a spot where we have all but taken the shooter out of the equation as far as positions go. Your body used to be part of the position as you were part of the support system.

    Now, there’s nothing “wrong” with what this has evolved to. But, as MD’s and competitors we have to ask ourselves what do we want to test or what do we want to be tested on.

    Seems like you can help mitigate the reliance on gear with more movement and shorter stage times. Heavy rifles, tripod rear support, and extra bags become a whole lot harder to use with 4-5 positions and 90 second stage times.
     
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    jhunter

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    So, if a stage says no gear restrictions........

    I can back up my side by side and shoot it off that right? I mean, it’s not in the rules?

    Also, the stage was thrown out. That’s not the discussion at hand.

    At some point, things get to the point of ridiculousness and when a sport is still developing, it’s not in the rules yet.

    Going outside of what is the obvious intent when these situations arise makes you an asshole at Every stage I have shot in the past 3 years requires all gear in hand before the timer
    For as long as i can remember We have been shooting matches that require starting with all gear in hand.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    For as long as i can remember We have been shooting matches that require starting with all gear in hand.

    Not sure where you quoted my post from. I didn’t say anything at all about gear in hand or not.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Seems like you can help mitigate the reliance on gear with more movement and shorter stage times. Heavy rifles, tripod rear support, and extra bags become a whole lot harder to use with 4-5 positions and 90 second stage times.

    The problem is that then we just become a run and gun.

    Also, there’s the issue of some MD’s not knowing why we make something 90s and then making 90s the standard time for things it shouldn’t be.

    The only way we get back to pure marksmanship is either field matches or equipment restrictions.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Carry your side by side. If you can tote it, then it’s legal.

    Jesus......it’s an extreme example to prove a point. 🙄

    So, replace the side by side with a step ladder if you want to nit pick.
     

    Mk32784

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    NRL 22 has a bag size limit... 1 vollyball sized bag. (insert some examples).

    1 Bag, 1 Rifle, 1 Bipod, Mags and Ammo.... easy enough. Local matches make tripod deployment be on the clock, forces you to really think about it (usually better off without).
     

    jhunter

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    Jesus......it’s an extreme example to prove a point. 🙄

    So, replace the side by side with a step ladder if you want to nit pick.
    If you are going to look like a jackass then you better get hits. Rules have always stated all gear in hand. Some need a side by side for confidence others need a game changer. In the end some are out to win others are there to have a good time. We are all paying to make it happen.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Marksman Class:

    Rifle: 18lbs
    Bag: 5lbs
    Mag: any stage over 10rnds requires mag change
    Nothing wider than 2.5” (rifle or attachments)
    Bipod: nothing over 18” (can use longer, but can’t be deployed longer than 18”)

    Only allowed a rear bag and one other bag for the match. Not 5 bags to choose from depending on stage.

    At large matches, there’s a postal scale at each stage (they aren’t expensive) and the RO can weigh your rifle and/or bag at anytime they see fit.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    If you are going to look like a jackass then you better get hits. Rules have always stated all gear in hand. Some need a side by side for confidence others need a game changer. In the end some are out to win others are there to have a good time. We are all paying to make it happen.

    Wtf are you even talking about?
     

    djarecke

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    Now, with 22lb rifles, 8lb+ sand bags, and 6oz triggers......it’s literally a who can balance rifle and slap trigger the best while making a decent wind call.

    We have progressed into a spot where we have all but taken the shooter out of the equation as far as positions go. Your body used to be part of the position as you were part of the support system.

    Exactly right. This is another reason why the competition has gotten so close at the top, and only a point or two separate the top 10 places. Light recoiling rifles, super heavy rifles, light triggers and sand bags all make it easier to "get away" with bad fundamentals and still shoot well.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Exactly right. This is another reason why the competition has gotten so close at the top, and only a point or two separate the top 10 places. Light recoiling rifles, super heavy rifles, light triggers and sand bags all make it easier to "get away" with bad fundamentals and still shoot well.

    And I don’t necessarily have an issue with it.

    But, what are we trying to test at a match?
     
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    mkollman74

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    Ya, the more you outline, the better it is.

    This is also why an national organization isn’t going to work as current unless there’s a national MD that goes to every match.

    As it sits, any MD can do basically whatever they want
    As it should be...
     

    Dthomas3523

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    As it should be...

    Again, that’s not how a league will rise.

    The formula is already there for every other major game or sport. Everyone doing their own thing doesn’t achieve anymore than we already have.

    There’s nothing wrong with MD’s doing their own thing. But, if you want to participate in a league, you need to conform to league rules. Which as it sits, are non existent rules since it basically just says “do whatever you want”.
     

    mkollman74

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    LOL. One team brought bikes to Mammoth and asked if they could ride them instead of walking. The rules didn’t say anything about not using them...
    See, this is a great example to speak to. The answer to whether this is "gaming" or "cheating" rests with the objective of the competition. Are you trying to test specific skills, or are you trying to test an individual's ability to adapt and overcome to achieve a goal?
     

    Sheldon N

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    Seems like you can help mitigate the reliance on gear with more movement and shorter stage times. Heavy rifles, tripod rear support, and extra bags become a whole lot harder to use with 4-5 positions and 90 second stage times.

    There are already 10 position 90 second stages, they were at the previous two PRS finales in 2018 and 2019. In 2019 you had to run and gun shooting out of 10 different windows along the length of two conex boxes. I think there was even a 12 position 90 second stage in a match at one point last year. Still doable even with a heavy rifle and heavy sandbag/gamechanger.

    Exactly right. This is another reason why the competition has gotten so close at the top, and only a point or two separate the top 10 places. Light recoiling rifles, super heavy rifles, light triggers and sand bags all make it easier to "get away" with bad fundamentals and still shoot well.

    @djarecke Curious on your thoughts on this, as someone who plays the game at the highest level. Do you think it's something that should be regulated? Gun weight, bag weight, trigger pull weight? Or does it get sorted out naturally by shooters who make the choice to move towards a practical rifle and keep on winning?

    It's something I think about. I took 2nd place behind @CaylenW at a club match earlier this year. He was running a mid-weight 6.5 creedmoor and I was shooting my heavy 6mm. A clean win on his part with no games needed.
     
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    mtruong

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    There are already 10 position 90 second stages, they were at the previous two PRS finales in 2018 and 2019. In 2019 you had to run and gun shooting out of 10 different windows along the length of two conex boxes. I think there was even a 12 position 90 second stage in a match at one point last year. Still doable even with a heavy rifle and heavy sandbag/gamechanger.



    @djarecke Curious on your thoughts on this, as someone who plays the game at the highest level. Do you think it's something that should be regulated? Gun weight, bag weight, trigger pull weight? Or does it get sorted out naturally by shooters who make the choice to move towards a practical rifle and keep on winning?

    It's something I think about. I took 2nd place behind @CaylenW at a club match earlier this year. He was running a mid-weight 6.5 creedmoor and I was shooting my heavy 6mm. A clean win on his part with no games needed.

    For those 10 position stages 90 second stages, how many actually had to deploy a tripod on the clock? Considering it takes 20-25+ seconds to deploy a tripod and break a shot, that burns up a ton of time. That practically eliminates it as an option for the vast majority of shooters. 1 bag rule also eliminates a lot of other shenanigans.

    And weight is all relative. I've said it before, for someone reasonably fit, a 6+ lb gamechanger and 22lb rifle don't weigh that much. Might feel like a ton for someone who's 120 lb, but otherwise it's a complete non-factor to move around.

    Gear might matter for the low-to-mid pack shooters, but it seems the top shooters will rise to the top regardless. Top finishers of 2 day matches seem to be fairly consistent, especially considering the entire field has access to any equipment they choose to use.
     
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    308pirate

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    What's wrong with that...?

    For many, nothing. For many others, we will not waste time and money investing in a sport where rules are different everywhere you go.

    I might go to an occasional shoot like that if there's nothing else to do. But investing money and time it takes to make it a dedicated pursuit? NOPE.
     
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    Bass Ackwardz

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    State = Local Matches - build these up, they do all the heavy lifting

    Regional = Bridge Local matches together, then move up a level -->

    Nation = Bridge Regions w/ Playoffs Bracket Style heading towards a Championship

    National Championships --------> Move people Internationally

    As noted in a different discussion, all these matches are unique in a lot of ways. They are individually run and there is no standard to the course of fire. You can have some repeated stages, but they differ from Qualification Stages because they are not universal. You want to promote the randomness of the sport. We don't want to constantly repeat ourselves, we need to be unique in that we are not 100% standardized. That is where the fun and development come from.

    In my mind, the last 5 years of competition focused on the development of Parts and Products more than improving the level of competition. Guys running 20+LBS 6mms are more about the engineering than the shooting. If your goal is to remove shooter input, you are not a shooter.

    They stopped developing the series in order to develop products too be sold or promoted.

    Put the focus back in the competition, not so much into the gear
    I know it has been an awfully long time since I have posted on this forum, but it has been an awfully long time since I have cared to compete at a match. I left the precision long range match competition thing a long time ago, and it was for this exact reason. It became a totalitarian regime that said one thing and did another. Those at the top aren’t there to grow the sport, they are there to line their pockets. The arms race has done nothing but reinforce that very belief. People should be able to attend any match they choose, and MD’s should be able to host any match they want. If they want to host a PRS match, cool. If they want to host a NRL match, cool. If they want to host a match that isn’t affiliated with either, thats cool too. It that isn’t what the people at the top want. This section of the shooting sports is turning into a huge ponzi scheme. Those at the top line their pockets, while the new guys coming in don’t have a chance... It is truly sad...

    Frank, you are 100% correct. I know I haven’t agreed with everything you have said in the past, but on this, you are right for sure.
     
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    Bass Ackwardz

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    I noticed that pretty quick but with that said there are other guys on the scene like Dave Preston that is ultra competitive and you never hear a thing about him.
    Dave is one of the most stand up humble guys I have ever had the pleasure of shooting with. People like him are the reason people like me attended matches early on in their shooting careers...
     

    Swoodhouse19

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    Little League and Cal Ripken do not sent umps to every event. The are locals trained on rules and values.

    in what I see as the closest example to us, racing, the national bodies sanction the tracks, require us to follow a national set of rules and may send a rep (from our area) to check in occasionally.

    the true “touring series” sends a small team to enforce their program.

    but we also have a regional promoters workshop (MD’s/range owners in this case) every year where we sit and talk schedules, special events and have the sanction bodies at the table.

    I would be happy to help organize such a thing.
     

    djarecke

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    @djarecke Curious on your thoughts on this, as someone who plays the game at the highest level. Do you think it's something that should be regulated? Gun weight, bag weight, trigger pull weight? Or does it get sorted out naturally by shooters who make the choice to move towards a practical rifle and keep on winning?

    It's something I think about. I took 2nd place behind @CaylenW at a club match earlier this year. He was running a mid-weight 6.5 creedmoor and I was shooting my heavy 6mm. A clean win on his part with no games needed.
    I think you made the exact point I was trying to make. Let me explain.

    I hadn't shot my .308 or 6.5 in a while, and decided to pull them out (largely so I don't burn up my small rifle primers). I was amazed at:

    1. How many hits on target I had with my suppressed .308 out to 800 yards. Even on small targets. However, once the wind got switchy, it was a gamble past 800. The biggest surprise? I was watching trace and spotting impacts from 400 - 800 yards. According to recent trends, this should be impossible. I guess on some level I had thought it was impossible because of all of the "anti-.308" trends of late.

    2. How little my "light" 6.5 gave up in terms of control and spotting impacts. Again - the 6.5 was amazingly-accurate and I was spotting trace and impacts nearly as well as with my heavy 6BR. The 6.5 did have a Maverick on it, but still...

    None of this should be shocking, but I hadn't shot those rifles in earnest in several years and was amazed at how well they did, and what an extremely minor advantage the 6BR is.

    What we have done is create a game, and people are shooting within the rules (or lack thereof), and they have created a subculture that follows the trends of the game. Light triggers, heavy rifles, low recoil, big sandbags, straight taper barrels, use of tripods on stages...

    People don't want to work on fundamentals. They want to do the "Western Culture Thing" and buy a piece of gear, slap a 6 ounce trigger and hit targets. This thought process is not unique to PRS. It's pervasive in our culture.

    The impression is that you NEED those things to do well at a match, and this is simply not true. You do need those things if you don't have good fundamentals and cannot use your fundamentals under timed pressure. The top guys don't need those things to shoot well, but they use them as "insurance" or "assurance" to raise their hit probability. Chris Kutalek won a match this year with a pencil-barreled 6.5 shooting MOA against the very best, so gear had nothing to do with his win. Another example is the AG Cup where shooters used tripods on 80% of all of the stages, even the PRS barricade. I hadn't seen that in years.

    Personally, I don't like using those things and don't feel they are needed. It almost takes some of the fun out of the stage to have the rifle on a tripod or tac table and I feel like a "driver", not a shooter.

    So should we mandate a rifle weight and a trigger pull weight? Eliminate the use of tac tables and tripods?

    In my opinion, yes.

    But nobody asked me LOL...
     

    seansmd

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    Little League and Cal Ripken do not sent umps to every event. The are locals trained on rules and values.

    in what I see as the closest example to us, racing, the national bodies sanction the tracks, require us to follow a national set of rules and may send a rep (from our area) to check in occasionally.

    the true “touring series” sends a small team to enforce their program.

    but we also have a regional promoters workshop (MD’s/range owners in this case) every year where we sit and talk schedules, special events and have the sanction bodies at the table.

    I would be happy to help organize such a thing.
    It's time.....

     

    stefan73

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    I understand. My local matches are in the SE PRS region, and the match directors are awesome people. Some of them are probably even friends with Shannon, and they shoot at K&M a lot. That’s fine and it is what it is.

    I’ll continue to pay my match fee and attend these local matches because they’re run well, friendly, inviting and don’t have contrived stages. I have no doubt they could run these matches with the same attendance without the PRS. There’s no prize tables, and people keep coming back because the guys are good people and bust their butts to put on a good match.

    That email that went out seems like fucking cancer to the sport, so what I will not do is buy a PRS membership or spend any money at K&M.
    Could you shoot me that list also? I am over here at FT Polk. Lance ran a couple of matches about a year and a half ago over here. That has been about it.
     
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    Sheldon N

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    3,153
    Pacific Northwest
    I think you made the exact point I was trying to make. Let me explain.

    I hadn't shot my .308 or 6.5 in a while, and decided to pull them out (largely so I don't burn up my small rifle primers). I was amazed at:

    1. How many hits on target I had with my suppressed .308 out to 800 yards. Even on small targets. However, once the wind got switchy, it was a gamble past 800. The biggest surprise? I was watching trace and spotting impacts from 400 - 800 yards. According to recent trends, this should be impossible. I guess on some level I had thought it was impossible because of all of the "anti-.308" trends of late.

    2. How little my "light" 6.5 gave up in terms of control and spotting impacts. Again - the 6.5 was amazingly-accurate and I was spotting trace and impacts nearly as well as with my heavy 6BR. The 6.5 did have a Maverick on it, but still...

    None of this should be shocking, but I hadn't shot those rifles in earnest in several years and was amazed at how well they did, and what an extremely minor advantage the 6BR is.

    What we have done is create a game, and people are shooting within the rules (or lack thereof), and they have created a subculture that follows the trends of the game. Light triggers, heavy rifles, low recoil, big sandbags, straight taper barrels, use of tripods on stages...

    People don't want to work on fundamentals. They want to do the "Western Culture Thing" and buy a piece of gear, slap a 6 ounce trigger and hit targets. This thought process is not unique to PRS. It's pervasive in our culture.

    The impression is that you NEED those things to do well at a match, and this is simply not true. You do need those things if you don't have good fundamentals and cannot use your fundamentals under timed pressure. The top guys don't need those things to shoot well, but they use them as "insurance" or "assurance" to raise their hit probability. Chris Kutalek won a match this year with a pencil-barreled 6.5 shooting MOA against the very best, so gear had nothing to do with his win. Another example is the AG Cup where shooters used tripods on 80% of all of the stages, even the PRS barricade. I hadn't seen that in years.

    Personally, I don't like using those things and don't feel they are needed. It almost takes some of the fun out of the stage to have the rifle on a tripod or tac table and I feel like a "driver", not a shooter.

    So should we mandate a rifle weight and a trigger pull weight? Eliminate the use of tac tables and tripods?

    In my opinion, yes.

    But nobody asked me LOL...
    Great insights, thank you for sharing.
     
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    lte82

    Shooter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 12, 2013
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    we have to ask ourselves what do we want to test or what do we want to be tested on.

    That question is precisely why I got into PRS. F Class and Highpower were the wrong tests and didn't develop the right skills to make a better field shooter, which is what *I* was after. Rifle weight and gamer gear be damned, I'm 10x better at practical field shooting for having competed in this sport the last 3 years, and I see a lot of translation to my hunting and overall shooting ability. YMMV.
     

    lte82

    Shooter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 12, 2013
    2,024
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    What we have done is create a game, and people are shooting within the rules (or lack thereof), and they have created a subculture that follows the trends of the game.

    It's going to be interesting to see if trends change when a bunch of grown men get skull drug this year by an 80lb girl shooting a light weight 6 creedmoor and a heavy trigger.
     

    djarecke

    Full Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 9, 2013
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    It's going to be interesting to see if trends change when a bunch of grown men get skull drug this year by an 80lb girl shooting a light weight 6 creedmoor and a heavy trigger.
    Yes sir. It could be as subtle as people covertly removing weight from their rifles, or as overt as people dry firing in their basements in yoga pants.

    Time will tell.

    But either way, it doesn't look good.
     

    Bass Ackwardz

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 1, 2011
    355
    12
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    KC, Mo.
    @lowlight ,

    I've shot all disciplines out there. USPS, IDPA, 3-Gun, and now PRS and am a MD at a range in MO in the MOST series. As many people have voiced, one of the things that has always frustrated me was the top shooters walking the prize table to just sell the product on the many sale pages the next day. While I understand shooting is an expensive hobby/sport, I have always felt it was disrespectful to the sponsors and their donations.

    Years ago, Ken Flood, was working for FN and did exactly what you suggested for the prize table at the Midwest 3-Gun Championship. He did a Lewis Class scoring system where it was divided into 4 flights. A,B,C,D flight. The matchwinner walked the prize table first. Say there were 200 shooters so shooter 51 walked second, 101 walked third, 151 walked 4th. Then back to the beginning to start the rotation in flights again. One of the things that has stuck in my mind through all the years that has passed is the shooter that walked 4th, shooter 151 is a local retired LEO that I run into often. He always sees me and says " Im the Midwest 3-Gun Champion! Of D flight!" Never in his wildest dreams did he think he would ever have a chance at walking the prize table 4th! You will never see that rifle on some sale page. He also went and told all his friends and guess who showed up at the next club matches. Him and his buddies.

    I know the prize table is just a drop in the bucket with the issues at hand. I just think the Lewis Scoring is a viable option since there is no way to sandbag your way into any position other than first!
    That was my last 3 gun match and I loved all the matches run like that. I finished mid A flight and thought the way they did it was spectacular. Was a great match too...
     
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    Swoodhouse19

    Match Director
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 13, 2017
    306
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    Cali
    That was my last 3 gun match and I loved all the matches run like that. I finished mid A flight and thought the way they did it was spectacular. Was a great match too...
    I did random draw like a raffle two years ago at a Regional. I let winner walk then drew everyone else. It’s was kinda cool. And everyone walked away with something. RO’s included!
     
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    Alpine 338

    Lumberjack
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 26, 2010
    1,860
    905
    NW Colorado
    I don't think adding 5 pounds to your gun is going to help lol.

    You know, there's always those individuals, no matter what the rules state, or if the rules don't cover it, are always going to complain about someone else and the equipment they have or use.

    In one breath, they say such and such shouldn't be used, but then say in the next breath it doesn't make a difference, then complain about it.

    For example, if you don't like using a tripod, don't use one, how much more simple can it be?

    If you think a 22-lb rifle is too heavy, no one is forcing you to have one, so keep shooting your 12-lb rifle and stop complaining.

    I just don't get all the drama that's created?

    I like to keep rules to the minimum, and the ones in place should be there to protect and keep everyone safe during the match. I'm a firm believer, if you can carry it (the entire match), then you can use it in the match, no matter how anyone else feels about it being practical or not.

    Less Rules = More Fun
     
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