Why we can't have nice things,

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CV_Ag

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So was the giant pillow a part of the stage that everyone could use?
No. The stage allowed the use of 1 bag or sling. This is the bag a few shooters used. Technically it’s “one bag” but Jacob felt it was not done “in the spirit it was meant to be shot” per his rules stated in the match book.
 

Aussieusa

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No. The stage allowed the use of 1 bag or sling. This is the bag a few shooters used. Technically it’s “one bag” but Jacob felt it was not done “in the spirit it was meant to be shot” per his rules stated in the match book.
Yeh, what a bunch of jokers. If it feels like you are gaming a stage, you probably are. I don’t know Jacob (obviously), but I highly doubt a MD would have been happy when he found out this BS happened. Some things shouldn’t have to be explained in such detail so that someone doesn’t try and game a stage like this.
 

jsimonh

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I watched a guy shoot off a post with several small rung poles coming out of it at different heights. The idea was to shoot 2 targets off each rung. He used his sling to support the front of his rifle and put the other end over whatever rung he was supposed to be shooting off of. He was able to stay prone and just adjusted the sling up and down. It turned into a shit show but since his sling was on each rung for the shot, they allowed it. A little later two rungs broke off and it was thrown out. I still can't believe the shit show it create and the jersey shooters that were involved.
 

djarecke

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Can we all agree that if a “bag” also moonlights as a piece of furniture.......it’s probably against the intent?
Absolutely. The RO probably should have pulled the plug on the use of that bag, but whoever used it should have known better especially if the COF stated to "shoot the intent of the stage". Clearly, the intent of the stage was to shoot off of a string, not a disturbingly-large beanbag.
 

1moaoff

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    You guys know we are all batching about the organizations that are involved. If we don't support kids and shooting the sport will die... sooo just a thought im gonna drop this right here.

     

    AManWearingAHat

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    This is some next level shit right here View attachment 7563799
    Now that's some fuckin gamer bullshit right there.

    One of the organizations I shoot with has a "circumventing game spirit" rule for things like this which equates to a massive time penalty to prevent cheesy gaming. Admittedly hard to standardize across several clubs / matches, but works for us because we're a small org of guys who all mostly know each other or know of each other. Thus we have a bit of an unspoken standard of what we expect out of matches.


    I watched a guy shoot off a post with several small rung poles coming out of it at different heights. The idea was to shoot 2 targets off each rung. He used his sling to support the front of his rifle and put the other end over whatever rung he was supposed to be shooting off of. He was able to stay prone and just adjusted the sling up and down. It turned into a shit show but since his sling was on each rung for the shot, they allowed it. A little later two rungs broke off and it was thrown out. I still can't believe the shit show it create and the jersey shooters that were involved.

    Not gonna lie, that's pretty clever. I think I'd have let that one float. Shame the prop broke.
     

    JMGlasgow

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    Reminds me of a stage I was an RO on where the last target could be shot any position except prone. It ended up being shot where everyone was basically ass up face down and on their elbows "modified" prone. It was allowed because their belly wasn't touching the ground. It looked absolutely retarded.
     
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    HellcatActual

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    Yeah, if you want to "grow the sport" I bet $250 gift cards to Hilton or Marriott, or $100 to Exxon would do a lot more than giving last years champ a scope he contractually isn't allowed to use.

    Xterra (the off-road triathlons) used to give free entries to future events in the region as a prize in the amateur classes, it was really effective to get people to stay invested in the sport.
    I thought of this as well.

    As a mid level (new) compitetor, Im fully capable of chomping at the sponser/captilist bit my self. IE: I see shooter #1 with X gear, I can go buy X gear (pretty much why sponsorships exist). but then to let the top finishers, all sponsored shooters grab all the top stuff off the prize table never made more sense to me other than just rewarding their performance, possibly giving less performing shooters something to strive for. maybe give the new shooters and less performing shooters some slice of the pie to keep them coming back would have far more equitable results?
     

    Tree

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    If your bag cannot fit inside the carry on size tester at the airport it probably shouldn’t be used on a stage. 😂
     

    jhunter

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    The video on the AG site?

    The “incident” happened this past weekend.
    So are we blaming Jersey Boys, the PRS, the MD or the RO who allowed it. Any of us who have been around competition understand why we have umpires or referees. Imagine all the money that could be saved if all competitors were honest and our little leagues no longer needed a mediator.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    So are we blaming Jersey Boys, the PRS, the MD or the RO who allowed it. Any of us who have been around competition understand why we have umpires or referees. Imagine all the money that could be saved if all competitors were honest and our little leagues no longer needed a mediator.

    That’s a tiered answer.

    First and foremost, if a stage is obviously intended to have the rifle resting on a rope, putting what is essentially a table under the rope and supporting the rifle on the table/bag is without question against the intent.

    And yes, the RO shouldn’t have allowed it or called the MD. However, the problem still stemmed from the shooter/s.

    And there is the argument “well, the MD should be more specific.” Well.....at what point are we getting into sheer absurdity? What if a cof for a stage says:

    Equipment: No restrictions

    Can I drive a side by side or a tractor up and prop up a barricade that is otherwise pretty shaky? The cof says no restrictions right??

    Why don’t you see shooters using this bag on literally every stage at every match? Except for rare circumstances, you never see a bag size restriction in a match book. Yet you almost never see this bag. If it was even remotely considered acceptable, shooters would be using it on literally every stage that isn’t spelled out they can’t. (You don’t see it because everyone knows it’s ridiculous)

    And, we get into a very dangerous area if we take the approach: “if it’s not specifically stated in the stage or cof description, it’s allowed.”

    As that translates to telling people it’s ok to try to find any loophole possible.

    In baseball for example, if a player cheats and doesn’t get caught, who’s fault is it?


    Short version: the blame is squarely on the shooter despite the RO not disallowing it.

    Shooting disciplines are pretty funny. What everyone else calls cheating, we call “gaming”.

    (I am in no way calling the shooter/s cheaters. As I don’t believe they had any ill intent as far as that goes)

    When points matter more than keeping in line with the intent of the competition, we have jumped the shark.
     

    6.5SH

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    So to play Devil's advocate, what if it was a large ALICE or other pack carried through the match that they tossed under it?
     

    Dthomas3523

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    And everyone needs to keep in mind, Rifles Only is first and foremost a training facility. The goal is to make people great marksman. Not just shooters who can balance a 22lb rifle on an 8lb bag and time their slap on a 6oz trigger.

    This goal extends into the competitions held at RO.

    So, when a training deficiency is identified, the cof can/will be modified accordingly. The use of this bag highlighted the training deficiency of being too dependent on bags. So the cof was adjusted accordingly on day two to not allow any bags at all.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    So to play Devil's advocate, what if it was a large ALICE or other pack carried through the match that they tossed under it?

    Terrible example/comparison. You would never get that stable from an Alice pack in that position.
     

    NoLegs24

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    So are we blaming Jersey Boys, the PRS, the MD or the RO who allowed it. Any of us who have been around competition understand why we have umpires or referees. Imagine all the money that could be saved if all competitors were honest and our little leagues no longer needed a mediator.

    I was one of the RO’s for that stage. There’s a reason I allowed it. But I’m not wasting my time explaining/ justifying my decision in letting it fly.

    But, y’all can come at me. I love entertainment.

    The funny and telling part was, how guys are so dependent on a front or even rear support bag.

    We (RO’s) shot the roof top stage on Day2 cause we wanted to know why guys were missing a nice size target at 400y. We couldn’t come to a conclusion cause that stage was f*ing easy.
    out of 53 guys, only 1 guy cleaned it. The last shooter too. 10 round stage.

    It’s over with. If you’re crying that your placement got screwed up because of the no bag on Day2 or even taking that stage completely off the scores, how about you suck less.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    I was one of the RO’s for that stage. There’s a reason I allowed it. But I’m not wasting my time explaining/ justifying my decision in letting it fly.

    But, y’all can come at me. I love entertainment.

    The funny and telling part was, how guys are so dependent on a front or even rear support bag.

    We (RO’s) shot the roof top stage on Day2 cause we wanted to know why guys were missing a nice size target at 400y. We couldn’t come to a conclusion cause that stage was f*ing easy.
    out of 53 guys, only 1 guy cleaned it. The last shooter too. 10 round stage.

    It’s over with. If you’re crying that your placement got screwed up because of the no bag on Day2 or even taking that stage completely off the scores, how about you suck less.

    This x1000.

    We have moved past the “no matter what you do, the best shooters will still be at the top.”

    That statement was absolutely true until things evolved to balancing a rifle on a bag as the main skill set.

    I will personally be adding in no bag stages to future matches after watching people struggle.
     

    mkollman74

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    PRS MD HERE. Just held a monthly PRS sanctioned event with a great shooter count and everyone treating the other great. I forgot a few important details on the COF and everyone rolled with it. Great Match.
    Most didn’t know about the drama in here or FB. I told them to wait for Netflix to catch all the seasons of this show.

    have a great week and stay safe.
    So, I think you're proving the point that, to the average shooter, what happens with the PRS as an organization makes exactly ZERO difference. Glad your match was no drama - that's as it should be. Ya know, a less trusting person than I might suspect that you're trying to stir the pot...;)
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    I'm a newb and my opinion doesn't matter one bit on any of this, but seems as though prs isn't all that well liked and enjoyed by those who shoot??? If not, then what's the point of it? Isn't there a way to just have local/regional matches with a simple way to validate points? Such as "MD + 2 shooters sign the card" type of thing? Then upload to a national public forum? I would think it would be pretty easy to get many sponsors to pay for the minimal cost of such a forum to simply keep track of points??? Is this not the case? Again, I'm a newb and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs with any of this stuff.
     

    kthomas

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    Hells yeah. I'm really digging how RO handled this, though I wouldn't expect anything different from Jacob.

    The lines between intent and gear have been blurred a long time ago, though this episode is a bit over the top. Gamer plates make me feel the same way - in my mind an impractical implement that makes otherwise unsteady positions into an almost benchrest steady position.

    I dislike how our guns are evolving away from practicality and into the realm of a super specialized sport with really specialized (and impractical) gear, like IPSC.

    But I guys that's "evolution". Who am I to say what's right and what's wrong. But we are certainly getting away from our roots, for better or worse.
     

    mkollman74

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    I'm a newb and my opinion doesn't matter one bit on any of this, but seems as though prs isn't all that well liked and enjoyed by those who shoot??? If not, then what's the point of it? Isn't there a way to just have local/regional matches with a simple way to validate points? Such as "MD + 2 shooters sign the card" type of thing? Then upload to a national public forum? I would think it would be pretty easy to get many sponsors to pay for the minimal cost of such a forum to simply keep track of points??? Is this not the case? Again, I'm a newb and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs with any of this stuff.
    On the contrary, your opinion, and the opinions of those like you, are the key to the ever elusive goal of "growing the sport". Good on you for speaking up and asking questions...
     

    Enthusiastic_Amateur

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    If there is one match or even one stage that you 100% know what the MD intended this is it.

    I’d like to see stage DQs for dumbfuckery like this.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Hells yeah. I'm really digging how RO handled this, though I wouldn't expect anything different from Jacob.

    The lines between intent and gear have been blurred a long time ago, though this episode is a bit over the top. Gamer plates make me feel the same way - in my mind an impractical implement that makes otherwise unsteady positions into an almost benchrest steady position.

    I dislike how our guns are evolving away from practicality and into the realm of a super specialized sport with really specialized (and impractical) gear, like IPSC.

    But I guys that's "evolution". Who am I to say what's right and what's wrong. But we are certainly getting away from our roots, for better or worse.

    I’d argue that a plate that’s very thin, and weighs very little, is pretty practical. Pretty easy to keep in a pack for a working rifle and throw on your rifle when/if needed. It also doubles as a table on your tripod if needed.

    I put them in the category of tripods. They “look” the gamer aspect, but are very practical when you think about it.

    As opposed to things that don’t *look* gamer, but a pretty impractical such as:

    Any bag over 4-6lbs (really anything much more than 2-4)
    Pillows (you’d use your pack or jacket)
    Large bipods like a triple pull ckyepod

    etc etc
     
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    308pirate

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    Now that's some fuckin gamer bullshit right there.

    One of the organizations I shoot with has a "circumventing game spirit" rule for things like this which equates to a massive time penalty to prevent cheesy gaming. Admittedly hard to standardize across several clubs / matches, but works for us because we're a small org of guys who all mostly know each other or know of each other. Thus we have a bit of an unspoken standard of what we expect out of matches.

    It's a game. Gaming is what you do.

    If the stage designer didn't want that part of it gamed, he should have just tossed a bag into the helo and stated in the stage description that the only allowed bag was already in the aircraft.

    "Spirit" or "intent" of a stage is BS that is ripe for inconsistent application because it's, guess what, subjective.

    And before you go there, gaming isn't cheating. It's taking advantage of what the rules allow, sometimes in ways that others don't see ahead of time. It's how a game is played.
     

    308pirate

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    Shooting disciplines are pretty funny. What everyone else calls cheating, we call “gaming”.
    The only time gaming is confused with cheating is when you have hazy, cloudy, ill-written sport rules that include "intent". That goes double when a "sport" can't make up its mind about whether it is a sport or "training".

    I've seen all this before. I've seen it all play out already.

    A private, for profit organization business that decided it was going to be "tactical" and "real world" and was going to have a "simple" rulebook, and was going to be played with "practical" equipment, and that was going to punish "gamesmanship" by using "intent".

    It's called IDPA and it's a joke. Anyone who's serious about being a handgun competitor spends very little time there and ends up in USPSA.

    Pro tip: if a stage gets materially changed after the match has started you either make everyone who's shot it already re-shoot it or you throw it out of the results. Anything else is bush league.

    Like Bill Engvall says.........."here's your sign"
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    The only time gaming is confused with cheating is when you have hazy, cloudy, ill-written sport rules that include "intent". That goes double when a "sport" can't make up its mind about whether it is a sport or "training".

    I've seen all this before. I've seen it all play out already.

    A private, for profit organization business that decided it was going to be "tactical" and "real world" and was going to have a "simple" rulebook, and was going to be played with "practical" equipment, and that was going to punish "gamesmanship" by using "intent".

    It's called IDPA and it's a joke. Anyone who's serious about being a handgun competitor spends very little time there and ends up in USPSA.

    Pro tip: if a stage gets materially changed after the match has started you either make everyone who's shot it already re-shoot it or you throw it out of the results. Anything else is bush league.

    Like Bill Engvall says.........."here's your sign"

    So, if a stage says no gear restrictions........

    I can back up my side by side and shoot it off that right? I mean, it’s not in the rules?

    Also, the stage was thrown out. That’s not the discussion at hand.

    At some point, things get to the point of ridiculousness and when a sport is still developing, it’s not in the rules yet.

    Going outside of what is the obvious intent when these situations arise makes you an asshole at best.
     

    308pirate

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    So, if a stage says no gear restrictions.......

    If a sport has a cohesive rulebook that explains what each equipment division is allowed to use and not use as a baseline, then there would be no need to clutter up a stage description with 20,000 if, ands, or buts.
     

    1moaoff

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    I’d argue that a plate that’s very thin, and weighs very little, is pretty practical. Pretty easy to keep in a pack for a working rifle and throw on your rifle when/if needed. It also doubles as a table on your tripod if needed.

    I put them in the category of tripods. They “look” the gamer aspect, but are very practical when you think about it.

    As opposed to things that don’t *look* gamer, but a pretty impractical such as:

    Any bag over 4-6lbs (really anything much more than 2-4)
    Pillows (you’d use your pack or jacket)
    Large bipods like a triple pull ckyepod

    etc etc
    I would go along with your outline of whats reasonable. However until there's such an outline we are kind of stuck.

    I shot a match a couple yrs ago and almost gamed it big time. Car stage multiple positions. Everyone bypassed the inside positions and took a loss of a few points. The side you shot from still had glass in the window... during the stage my mind said shove the muzzle through and break the glass and get the points.. I didn't! But there was nothing saying I couldn't. Its a slipper slope at times.
     

    308pirate

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    I shot a match a couple yrs ago and almost gamed it big time. Car stage multiple positions. Everyone bypassed the inside positions and took a loss of a few points. The side you shot from still had glass in the window...
    WTF
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Ya, the more you outline, the better it is.

    This is also why an national organization isn’t going to work as current unless there’s a national MD that goes to every match.

    As it sits, any MD can do basically whatever they want
     

    Eustice

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    I would go along with your outline of whats reasonable. However until there's such an outline we are kind of stuck.

    I shot a match a couple yrs ago and almost gamed it big time. Car stage multiple positions. Everyone bypassed the inside positions and took a loss of a few points. The side you shot from still had glass in the window... during the stage my mind said shove the muzzle through and break the glass and get the points.. I didn't! But there was nothing saying I couldn't. Its a slipper slope at times.
    LOL. One team brought bikes to Mammoth and asked if they could ride them instead of walking. The rules didn’t say anything about not using them...
     
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    308pirate

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    Ya, the more you outline, the better it is.

    This is also why an national organization isn’t going to work as current unless there’s a national MD that goes to every match.

    As it sits, any MD can do basically whatever they want

    Shame because precision rifle shooting has potential. If things continue as they are, it will always be a fractured, disjointed hobby. Just like 3 Gun.
     

    Swoodhouse19

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    I'm a newb and my opinion doesn't matter one bit on any of this, but seems as though prs isn't all that well liked and enjoyed by those who shoot??? If not, then what's the point of it? Isn't there a way to just have local/regional matches with a simple way to validate points? Such as "MD + 2 shooters sign the card" type of thing? Then upload to a national public forum? I would think it would be pretty easy to get many sponsors to pay for the minimal cost of such a forum to simply keep track of points??? Is this not the case? Again, I'm a newb and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs with any of this stuff.
    Your opinion and others coming into the sport are EXACTLY the opinions we need honestly. Fresh perspective from people who can share their experiences at matches, etc. From my experience at matches I have shot, RO'd or MD'd the shooters do not dislike PRS. Most shooters are not in the forums discussions. A smaller group is who shares in topics like this. The local/regional idea is great and works for the majority of our matches. It is nice to host a larger sanctioned event from time to time to draw shooters from outside your Region...
     
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    lte82

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    Shame because precision rifle shooting has potential. If things continue as they are, it will always be a fractured, disjointed hobby. Just like 3 Gun.

    I think the wide variety in matches is part of the beauty of the sport, and makes people more adaptable. The current rules for PRS, NRL, etc just set a framework for basic velocity & caliber restrictions, classes, etc. The MD's get to set any specific match or stage rules to suit their own range, course of fire, etc. Don't want to allow a gamer plate, tripod, huge bag, *any* bag, for a specific stage or even entire match, it's been done. But if you want to talk about a league "owning" a game, setting national rules that dictate weight or size of a bag, specific gear use, target sizes and distances, etc etc would crush innovation and make the matches a lot more similar than they are now, which folks like Frank are railing against already. Let the match directors come up with their own course of fire, along with whatever stage rules are applicable. If the MD's turn it into barricade benchrest, ok. If they want to ban any bags, ok. Getting trapped into one shooting style that isn't adaptable is an issue, but national rules won't fix that.
     

    308pirate

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    But if you want to talk about a league "owning" a game, setting national rules that dictate weight or size of a bag, specific gear use, target sizes and distances, etc etc would crush innovation and make the matches a lot more similar than they are now,

    You couldn't be more wrong.

    First, I've avoided going into too much detail about what should and shouldn't be regulated/standardized in precision rifle shooting. So please don't attribute to me things I haven't said.

    Second, no pistol shooting sport (what I am most familiar with) has spurred more creativity and innovation in equipment, stage design, and shooting technique than USPSA despite the fact that it has a (by PRS standards) a very detailed rulebook.

    I'm going to stop here because this is like trying to describe sex to a virgin.

    If someone within the sport is interested in my opinion, they can ask me. Otherwise, I'm fine too.
     

    seansmd

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    Your opinion and others coming into the sport are EXACTLY the opinions we need honestly. Fresh perspective from people who can share their experiences at matches, etc. From my experience at matches I have shot, RO'd or MD'd the shooters do not dislike PRS. Most shooters are not in the forums discussions. A smaller group is who shares in topics like this. The local/regional idea is great and works for the majority of our matches. It is nice to host a larger sanctioned event from time to time to draw shooters from outside your Region...
    As many others have said local matches are successful because of local shooters and excellent MDs that create a fair and fun environment.

    This past weekend we had a great match based on Scott's ability to create and manage fair and fun events. It was a mix of people most who don't care about points or national measuring, and some that do.

    Regardless there were 40 shooters for a Feb club match that used to be 20. That interest has grown from PRS events, our UKD match, shooters, and forums like this and others that share the experience and invite others.

    It's always the experience not the outcome.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

    Don't Start None, won't be none.
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    Minuteman
    Nov 13, 2020
    433
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    Alabama
    Your opinion and others coming into the sport are EXACTLY the opinions we need honestly. Fresh perspective from people who can share their experiences at matches, etc. From my experience at matches I have shot, RO'd or MD'd the shooters do not dislike PRS. Most shooters are not in the forums discussions. A smaller group is who shares in topics like this. The local/regional idea is great and works for the majority of our matches. It is nice to host a larger sanctioned event from time to time to draw shooters from outside your Region...
    I'm not new to shooting but I'm very new to this type of shooting. Honestly, it was after this whole "stuff" that happened this past year when I saw how the sports teams that I've supported (substantially directly supported!) Actually feel about me. That's the truth. I decided to look into furthering my shooting, which I've always enjoyed. I figured it was something I could do with my boys, instead of spending Saturday's at a football or basketball venue, and use the money I was spending on shooting stuff ect...

    That's what lead me to look hard at prs type matches and competitions and I suspect that I'm not alone in this line of thinking.

    For me, I would prefer to have some standardized rules in place and adhered to, BUT the idea of a private business controlling it all, does not appeal to me what so ever! I own and operate a business, and I understand the dynamic very well. It's just a bad idea for many reasons.
     
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