Why we can't have nice things,

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    This is why we can't have nice things,

    I talked about a lot of inside ball over the years in regards to competitions. As noted many times, this is not new, not even the idea of a series. In the early 2000s there was a series attempt and it failed. Part of the problem is growth and being forward thinking enough to understand, nobody owns this game. The idea that one group is in charge of Precision Rifle Competition is silly on its face, and insulting when you understand the history.

    When the PRS started in 2012 it was on the heels of what Jacob and I were doing at Rifles Only. Sure there was other matches here and there. In a typical year back in 2004 you might have 4 two day matches. Each one of those matches might have 50 shooters. The rules, the format, everything was flexible it was just a group of like minded people enjoying a hobby. As the community grew, in part because of Sniper's Hide, it was where everyone hung before the FB Groups, we discussed, coordinated, debated, and argued about what we are doing.

    The joint Sniper's Hide / Rifles Only matches set the standard, but that standard needs to change. The idea you could build a series around this game is flawed. We have too many individuals with to big of personalities to manage a one size fits all approach. The conflicts of the past divided the shooter community into East & West, North & South, Affiliated and Nomad. It's time for a change.

    2020 was a mess, Countries shut down, everyone on hold, but we managed.

    We need to reflect as a group and have a big reset. The mindset and reasonings have changed, the equipment has evolved, the locations have grown and adapted into something nobody really likes. We all recognize the benefit of competition shooting, but we also have to acknowledge the damage it has caused on across the board. Nothing we do is set in stone, there is no Association that oversees what we do, no governing board that requires we vote to change directions. We are still grassroots despite the money we bring in, and put out. So changes are really easy, you just have to agree to consider them.

    I think the regions are the answer, we can't have a National Governing Body in the United States. It's too fractured, broke, and beyond repair. Besides who really owns this... nobody. Before going too far forward, my thoughts are create Regional groups of like minded people. Determine your own rules and standards, and then if you have to test your work, find other regions to compete against. The Nationals Stage is broken beyond repair, it will never serve the community as a whole when it designed to enrich only a select few.

    Recently on the Everyday Sniper Podcast I have been talking to people about this very thing. Creating Regional Divisions for people to compete under. Those regions are working together to cut out the National organizations because of the in-fighting taking place. It's a natural thing when the big stage no longer works for the individual they will just build a community one for the locals to enjoy. As I have noted many, many times, I have turned into the Complaint Department for the Competition Series. The Series wants to control the message so the competitors find other avenues to get the message out. I happen to be that sympathetic ear. This stated, I have some communication between Shannon and the PRS in response to the International Precision Rifle Federation.

    The response from the IPRF will make it clear the inside ball, it will answer those questions the first email might not. So read both:

    PRS Email First :
    PRS International Directors,

    The PRS has received a few questions during the past two weeks regarding the announcement of an organization called the International Precision Rifle Federation. We have had limited communication with Rob Ramsden from South Africa regarding it, but as of now we have more questions than we have answers. We are assuming that a few of you may be on the committee for the organization or have been invited to take part, however that is unclear as very few details have been shared with the PRS. As members of the PRS International Series we would like to share our initial thoughts on the concepts that have been presented, in addition to sharing significant concerns about its formation and the division that is likely to follow.

    First and foremost, the US committee representative and elected president of the organization, Scott Satterlee, does not speak for the Precision Rifle Series or our shooters on any matters in the US or abroad. He has actively worked against the PRS here in the states for several years and his involvement with this new organization raises considerable concerns among PRS leadership and many of our match directors (PRS Committee). No one on the IPRF committee is a representative of the PRS. Its development without input from the largest precision rifle organization in the world is both alarming and potentially deceitful, though we hope this may be an oversite. Scott’s involvement and leadership role creates instant opposition from many in the US PRS community that may be insurmountable to overcome. He has unsuccessfully promoted division in the US. The organization he works for is in decline and now it is moving into international territory. We will be overly cautious while we are working toward the same goals.

    At first glance it appears that the IPRF seeks only to organize and host a world championship type precision rifle event, which would draw a small number of shooters from participating countries to compete each year. However, upon further research the intent of the organization is further described as seeking “to unify the sport of precision rifle worldwide and set international standards for competition enabling a level playing field at Regional and World Championship levels.” This is published on their website. This goal is in direct competition with the mission and vision of the PRS, so we must at this point address it as a competing organization.

    The Precision Rifle Series has set the standard for PRS competition since its inception and already has organized and invested substantially in the quickly expanding PRS International Series. The investments of the PRS go far beyond just existing as a governing body but includes access to automated score tracking and match publications for our affiliates. PRS International Series participating countries include Australia, the Baltic States, Indonesia, Italy, Mongolia, Poland, South Africa, Spain, Ukraine, and Zimbabwe - with several new 2021 additions in the UK, Argentina, Russia, New Zealand, and many more. The PRS international Series currently incorporates ALL shooters from our participating affiliates. The IPRF intends to involve only a small number of each country’s top competitors, who are also able and willing to travel to compete. In the US this would encompass less than 0.04% of our shooters across the nation. It appears the IPRF desires to capitalize on the hard work of the PRS and your nations, harvesting the top shooters, and promoting a world championship without the time-consuming work we collectively are doing to build a base. The next step is that they would like to be the governing body. This is not a hard connection to make and some honest questions need to be answered.

    The published vision and mission statement of the Precision Rifle Series is clear and encompasses our international affiliates.

    Vision: The Precision Rifle Series is and will continue to expand as the preeminent precision rifle organization in the world.

    Mission: To promote and grow the sport of competitive precision rifle shooting in a safe, fair, and practical manner for shooters of all skill levels and ages.

    The PRS is supported by the industry’s most influential international brands and they have wholeheartedly invested in the growth of the PRS both stateside and internationally. A few have contacted us for our input on this new organization and at this point, with what we know currently, we will not in good conscience recommend that they get involved in a potentially competing organization. It hurts them and their investment in the PRS and PRS international Series. So, you can see how this has a potential to be problematic for shooters, MDs, and the nations affiliated with the PRS and our sponsors.

    All PRS International Affiliates have signed agreements that state that any affiliate who associates or aligns with any other competing organization without permission will render their agreement void and they will forfeit any and all rights to any PRS services, the trademarked PRS name, and all benefits from the organization. This was included in our International Agreement because we have seen firsthand the difficulties that arise when competing organizations are created, even when developed with the best of intentions. We rather not even have this discussion but again we were left in the dark, copied and thus find ourselves on the brink of a deep split internationally.

    For example, in the US, the National Rifle League was developed as a copycat organization but was only able to reach 10% of the size of the PRS. This organization has been declining in recent years, but the division it has created among precision rifle shooters has had lasting and detrimental effects. There is strength in unity and anything that has the potential to undermine that, we will continue to approach with caution. We know that the existence of two similar/competing organizations will inevitably cause division. The result will be the de-sanctioning of some PRS International affiliates and the inevitable replacement with competitors. We have already been down this road in the US and have worked tirelessly for the past two years to repair the damage that was done. We are still not done and may never be.

    There are questions that should be answered. The PRS, more than any other organization, has the brand, ability, expertise, and long-standing infrastructure to support World Championship events in partnership with our sponsors. So, we must ask, what is the true reason for this organization's being? What are they doing that is fundamentally different from the PRS? If this new organization did not exist, what would be missing from the community? If it is only the organization of a World Championship match, the PRS has more competition experience and sponsor support than any other precision rifle organization in the world. We put our plans on hold due to COVID-19 as many of you could not compete.

    If the organization is going to be built from the top down, first soliciting elite shooters from every country, it will ignore the most important part of any organization which is its base. We know that this a flawed approach and that the strength of any organization relies on its base. Furthermore, it is disheartening to see our South Africa PRS Affiliate who has benefited greatly from its PRS affiliation to help in the development of this potentially competing organization without ever informing us of their intentions. This is a conversation that we will need to have with Rob Ramsden, who is also CC’d on this email.

    In closing, we have not reached a final determination regarding the IPRF and how our goals may or may not align. This is in part due to a lack of published information and due to the US leadership that is in place. We need to have further conversations with the right individuals to determine what the long-term goals of IPRF are. If it is to develop a new set of rules and standards in efforts to become an “umbrella” type international organization, the PRS will never be in support of it. If, as we move forward in discussions, the IPRF is determined to be a competing organization the PRS will be compelled to host competing international championship events under the PRS and to expand our international series affiliations even further in support of our sponsors and international members. We are hopeful that this is not the case.

    Unfortunately, in just glancing at the first page of the IPRF published rules, they have almost completely copied the PRS rules – word for word. The last thing we will get behind is another copycat organization.



    IPRF Standards and Principles

    2. STANDARDS AND PRINCIPALS

    The 2019 Rules & Standard Operating Procedures apply to all IPRF sanctioned events.

    • Precision Rifle competitions are designed to test a shooter’s ability to shoot accurately, correct for environmental factors effectively, and solve problems within a prescribed limited amount of time.

    • Each Course Of Fire at a Precision Rifle event will be practical in nature and relate to common

    aspects of long-range Precision Rifle engagements.

    • A high level of professionalism and sportsmanship is expected at each Precision Rifle event. All participants, including Match Directors, Range Officers, Stage/Safety Officers, Competitors, and Spectators will be treated with the utmost respect at all times.

    • Cheating, or attempted cheating, of any kind will not be tolerated at any Precision Rifle events and will result in an immediate match disqualification and in certain instances may be grounds for expulsion from a Series/League/Federation/Association/Organisation.

    • Precision Rifle courses of fire (COF) are individual events designed to test a shooter’s individual skill and ability, therefore; coaching a shooter while they are conducting a stage is prohibited. Assistance before and after a stage is not only authorized but encouraged especially for new shooters.


    PRS Standards and Principles

    The 2020 Rules & Standard Operating Procedures apply to all PRS sanctioned events including

    but not limited to PRS National Two-Day matches, PRS Regional One Day matches and

    internationally affiliated matches.

    Safety is the first and highest priority before, during, and after all PRS competitions and is

    everyone’s responsibility. Anyone who observes an unsafe act can call a cease fire at any point

    during an event.

    • PRS competitions are designed to test a shooter’s ability to shoot accurately, correct for environmental factors effectively, and solve problems quickly.
    • Each course of fire at a PRS event will be very practical in nature and relative to common aspects of long-range precision rifle engagements.
    • A high level of professionalism and sportsmanship is expected at each PRS event. All participants, to include Match Directors, Range Officers, shooters, and spectators will be treated with the utmost respect at all times.
    • Cheating of any kind will not be tolerated at PRS events and will result in an immediate match disqualification and in certain instances may be grounds for expulsion from the Series.
    • PRS courses of fire (COF) are individual events designed to test a shooter’s individual skill and ability. Therefore, coaching a shooter while they are conducting a stage is prohibited. Assistance before and after a stage is not only authorized but encouraged especially for new shooters.

    If their goal is simply to run a World Championship type event each year with a unique set of divisions and categories, designed specifically for that competition, we will take more of a wait and see approach. We are absolutely in support of growth and we are open to the creative spirit that is brought about by collaboration between individuals from different countries. It just is very curious that it has not been brought up to us until this point.

    So, let’s start here, there are important questions that need to be addressed because we do not yet understand the basic framework of the IPRF. We want to grow together and reach common goals, but it needs to happen the right way. In no particular order-


    · Who owns the organization and how will it support its members?

    · Why does the IPRF exist?

    o What is the IPRF reason for being?

    o What does the community need in your area of expertise?

    o What is special about your organization? What do you do differently from other organizations that already exist?

    o If your organization did not exist, what would be missing from the community?

    · Is their mission to act as a unifying body for the sport of precision rifle worldwide?

    · Where does the IPRF see itself in 5 years and what plans are in place to get there?

    · Does the IPRF plan to provide a framework, which currently looks strikingly similar to the PRS Rules and Guidelines, to countries who are just getting started in PRS competitions?

    · How is the IPRF different from the PRS International Series and what evidence is there that this is not going to be another competing organization?

    · How does the IPRF intend to unify the sport of precision rifle worldwide, while they leverage our name for a few years, then cut and paste our rules, classes, categories, divisions, etc. only to devise a duplicate version of the PRS International Series minus any real investment in building the sport at the grassroots level?

    · Does IPRF expect the PRS to collapse all PRS International Series and our plans to host a PRS World Championships which was delayed due to COVID?

    · Is it the intent of the IPRF to copy the PRS Framework, rules, and infrastructure that has been built by the PRS since its inception?

    · Why did the IPRF president, US representatives or leadership not contact the PRS for its support and involvement or for collaboration?

    · Who elected the US leadership to represent us? Why didn’t the shooters, or established organizations in the US have a vote?


    Gentleman this is just the beginning and unfortunately, I have seen this too many times being involved in the PRS since its inception. Just like in the US the PRS will not be responsible for any divisions internationally. We did not start this; it appears that it was hidden from us until it was launched and has the underpinnings to fracture us internationally. We know firsthand that it will not be good for the sport, and will work to avoid that, will the IPRF? We will do whatever we can to maintain unity and the growth of the sport, it is in our mission statement. But the PRS must follow its mission and vision statement, which the IPRF doesn’t even have. It will take much more than a website and match for a handful of shooters for an international organization to gain unity and buy in from its potential members. Over the last few hours that we have taken to write this and the more we have investigated, it appears that the IPRF wants to copy the PRS International Series, our rules, structures, procedures, and all the grassroots efforts to build the sport and slide in over the top in the name of unity.

    We have many common goals; we will work together for what is best for the sport. We are looking forward to hearing from someone, anyone for that matter. This should not be something we cannot overcome (depending on IPRF goals). But it must be done in collaboration.

    Please feel free to reach out to me. Your insight is highly desired and necessary so we can move forward with our common goals. We are at a critical time that I feel may be lost on a lot of people. The future of our sport depends on many of us getting this right. I hope we can make this work for the sports sake.

    “There is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit.”– Ronald Reagan.


    v/r


    Shannon Kay

    Precision Rifle Series Director


    Precision Rifle Series

    PrecisionRifleSeries.com


    So they reached out to the various groups to Invite the PRS to send a Team to Compete, that was the answer above and here is their response below

    Hi Shannon

    As previously indicated via my previous email, I was intending to get back to you at the end of the week, once I had had a meeting with our SA National Committee, which is scheduled for Thursday night. Sending an email out to all the 'PRS International' nations, and other interested parties prior to my reply is not perhaps the most tactful way of doing things.


    I have tried to explain to you the concept of the World Sports Framework, so again as a refresher:

    World Sport (GAISF - http://www.gaisf.sport), National Sports Federations and National Olympic Committees DO NOT recognise a privately owned sports brand like PRS or NRL, and conversely therefore governments do not recognise privately owned sports brands. It's that simple.

    Outside of the US, the rest of us have to work within our national sports frameworks for a variety of reasons:

    • We cannot get official sports recognition for our organisations and our athletes in our countries without being part of it.
      • Sending a team to the PRS or NRL Finale literally means nothing to our National Sport Federations.
    • Sports Associations get protection in their countries as National Sports frameworks only recognise a SINGLE democratically constituted entity in a country.
    • In terms of firearm legislature, being part of a governments frameworks allows us to engage and motivate to keep (yes, we're fighting just to 'keep' our firearms) and use our rifles for sport purposes.
    • It makes it easier to get access to ranges (mainly military in some countries) that we would not be able to if we are not recognised. Space is a problem in many countries as is access to ranges.
    • We're able to apply for government grants to help us build our sports, as there is not a lot of money to run sport in most countries.

    So, going forward, the only way that we can get recognition is to be part of a National Sports Framework, and hence the creation of the IPRF. This now paves the way for all of us to interface with our Governments and National Sports Frameworks from a stronger position as well as be able to consider an officially recognised Precision Rifle World Championships.

    The problem with many countries is a chicken and egg problem. In many countries you cannot join the National Shooting Sports Federation without initially joining an International Discipline Federation in the first place. Fortuitously there were enough countries interested in IPRF that did not have this requirement and hence we were able to get government recognition before building the IPRF, which then allowed the IPRF to exist. This now paves way for the remaining countries to be able to join IPRF before joining their National Sport Shooting Federation, and it actually assists them in their application.


    When we started working on the IPRF concept, you were a member of that Facebook group, and the first thing you did was immediately leave it as you personally didn't 'like the people' that were involved. I had to call you to get you back to the table, and even then you did not participate.

    It then became very clear that trying to build an international organisation with PRS and NRL involvement was not going to work, as both are private American brands that have massive animosity against each other with private agendas and each would be jostling to get a one up on the other to get some sort of advantage. That's how it is with private brands, and there is nothing wrong with it in corporate, but it doesn't work particularly well in sport without significant friction.

    We then created a sub-committee of 12 countries with 2 representatives per country to work out how to build an International Precision Rifle Sport Federation that would fit and be accepted into the World Sports Frameworks and National Sports Frameworks.

    All of us want a Precision Rifle World Championship, and PRS or NRL, given their inherit private structure, can't deliver... it's that simple, it's just not possible.

    Here are images of some of the IPSC World Championships, which are aspirational to all of us, and which drive us and our athletes to want to be part of an International Precision Rifle Federation.

    Image result for ipsc world championships in russia Image result for ipsc world championships in russiaImage result for ipsc world championships in russia Image result for ipsc world championships in russiaWhen we looked at all the rules and regulation requirements, of course we looked at the PRS rules, as by building our International Rules around PRS rules, then we can still represent PRS in our countries. I don't think any of us are wanting to abandon the PRS brand at this point... although after your less than tactful email, there might well be consideration in several countries.

    In many ways the creation of the IPRF has strengthened the position of PRS in all of our countries, as our national sport organisations are now the SINGLE recognised government sport entities. This now allows for the reconciliation across brands within our countries, which needs to happen in order to grow our sport.


    I do not think that you understand or have even considered the negative affect that the PRS USA vs NRL USA war has around the world.

    In terms of the global positioning of the PRS, it has become very apparent that anybody who disagrees with PRS (USA or local) or the management thereof can instantly create a rival "Credible" organisation in NRL (or any other), and take advantage of the ongoing brand war and associated abrasive narrative to drive their own (often personal and financial) agendas. The politics unfortunately divides the sport and impacts the entry of new shooters who are easily swayed, and not always in position of the facts or aware of the reality on the ground. There is no way to get around this, as both are private 'brands' (like Coke and Pepsi) and able to compete against each other in the USA.

    The PRS vs NRL war that has been going on in the USA has had a marked negative effect on shooters globally, and has proved extremely divisive in South Africa and we're hearing it's starting to filter into other countries in the same manner. Additionally, many countries are creating their own Precision Rifle brands just to avoid this PRS vs NRL issue.


    We've been part of PRS since 2015 under the leadership of Shaun Wiseman, and I think Rusty in Australia started working with Shaun at the same time. Back then we assisted where we could, and I believe that you are still using the Skill Stage drawings and rulebook typesetting that I personally produced for PRS USA in the PRS rulebook in an effort to raise the professionalism of PRS at the time.

    All of us have worked hard to promote the PRS brand in our countries, with literally zero support, guidelines or even any form of discussion from PRS USA since Shaun resigned due to internal PRS board politics. I think this email that I'm now replying to from you is probably longer than the entire email communication that we've received from PRS in the last 5 years.


    For the last 5 years we've tried to work with your International Leaderboard, and you've not listened to a single word we've said, and the leaderboard literally only makes sense to single level matches in a country. How on earth do you intend to grow a sport in a country without providing the different levels of competition ? In the end it was easier for us to build a more agile leaderboard system in Google Sheets that displays on our website, and can be tailored to the needs of Precision Rifle development in our country.


    Regarding sponsorship, not once in the last 5 years have you offered to introduce your 'International sponsors' to us, or assisted us in any way with sponsorship. In fact, your email suggests that you have been using our International PRS efforts for your own sponsorship gain, which I'm honestly struggling to comprehend the ramifications thereof.

    We don't get to work directly with your sponsors, as International products outside of the USA are dealt with by intermediary distributors that have to carry the cost of marketing in their regions, and generally get very little brand assistance. It's those distributors that we locally interface with, and again given the size of the markets in our countries, the NRL (or other) interference/confusion significantly decreases that sponsor pool and the appetite for sponsors to want to get involved in a brand feud.

    It's also extremely naive to think that those brands have invested solely in PRS, and it's plain to note that they cover every available competition of stature as much as they can to distribute their marketing spend. It's merely smart marketing.


    Given the International Sports framework, we have 3 levels of matches in South Africa.
    Club -> Provincial/State -> National
    Nowhere in the PRS rulebook or documentation is there any inference to sub 2 day matches, and we've literally had to build our own sport structures and set national match standard to assist in the development of Precision Rifle sport in South Africa to attempt to create a level playing field for our shooters. There are no match guidelines, or parameters that define Precision Rifle competition or set standards of targets in relation to shooting position, distance and various levels of competition. We've had to build all of that ourselves.

    Here; the national level matches are branded as PRS qualifiers, as they are the only matches that meet the 150 round requirements. As there are only 3 slots available to go to the PRS Finale, it actually only makes it relevant in the Open Division of those matches, as those are the highest placed shooters.

    We do have a few Tactical Shooters, but they're not going to finish anywhere close to top 3, which counts them out and basically means that Tactical over here is bit of a dead-end Division in terms of the PRS Finale.

    On the Production Division side it's a lot more complicated. To import $5000 USD of equipment over here is 155% markup (import & duties) from retail prices in the USA = $7750 direct value, With the comparative Purchasing Power Parity (McDonald's Index) your $5,000 is actually $20,000 in comparative paid salary terms in SA. So the Production Division here is a complete non-starter in most countries due to affordability and availability, as shooters are starting in the Open division with Howa rifles in an excellent locally made affordable chassis systems.

    Essentially this has resulted in PRS having relevance only to Open Division at around just 4-6 National level matches... and actual direct relevance to basically only 4-8 shooters countrywide that are interested in taking part in the PRS Finale each year, although it's basically the same people that qualify for the NRL Finale. NRL USA have additionally agreed to increase to 10 slots from 5 for NRL SA for their Finale, where PRS USA has reduced us from 5 to 3. One has to ask who's winning the Precision Rifle popularity stakes.


    Some answers to questions that have not been answered above regarding the IPRF.

    · Who owns the organization and how will it support its members?

    Each country has 2 votes at the General Assembly, so the member bodies themselves own it.


    · Where does the IPRF see itself in 5 years and what plans are in place to get there?

    The Member Nations will decide the direction that they choose to take it in.


    · Does IPRF expect the PRS to collapse all PRS International Series and our plans to host a PRS World Championships which was delayed due to COVID?

    ??? what PRS World Championship ???
    I think it would have been nice to discuss this with your International PRS license holders at some point ???


    · Who elected the US leadership to represent us? Why didn’t the shooters, or established organizations in the US have a vote?

    When an organisation starts out, there needs to be someone that gets behind it initially. I believe that USPRA are working to get on their feet and I would suggest that you get involved in some way.

    With regards to how IPRF works in the USA, that's down to the USPRA (United States Precision Rifle Association) headed up by Scott and Eric. IPRF International does not interfere with the goings on in the member National Associations, it's up to those Member Associations to unify and grow the sport in their own countries and ultimately represent the membership of that country. I would suggest reaching out to them and having a chat.
    Your call.


    Lastly, would you please explain to all of us cc'ed to this email... why you intentionally cc'ed your email to NRL in South Africa in direct competition to your own brand. The result thereof is that this email has already been spread like wildfire all over the internet chat groups over here, and created yet more ripples for us to have to deal with here in South Africa. Is this how you are intending to treat all of your PRS International licensees, by undermining the hard work that they are doing on your behalf ?
    Why would you do that ?
    Why make this all openly public ?.. it's tantamount to public suicide ?
    I'm having a very hard time understanding the logic ?


    We hope to continue our positive relationship with PRS USA and we leave the decision up to you as to our involvement.


    kind regards,

    Rob Ramsden
    Chairman - South African Precision Rifle Federation

    We are doomed to failure if we continue down this path.

    I think we need a Summit here in the United States, one that sits all interested parties down for a minimum of 2 days. One that hammers out the objectives of this community. One that puts to rest the infighting and disorganization, if a group does not want to play ball with the rest, that group can be an Island alone. From here changes can be made to reset things in a positive direction. Plenty of smart people engage in this activity we have more than enough examples to pick and choose from in order to build a better mousetrap. The direction things are currently moving on the big stage are short for this world. We can grow the sport together, or we can work without certain individuals and operate around them in other ways. This is not something one person should claim to own. We are barely playing with .1% right now, growing it together would be huge.

    There is the individual good, and the greater good. Today it's a bunch of individuals claiming to be working for the greater good, we all know that is bullshit to include me. We fractured and broke years ago and have been playing games ever since. Time to fix it or forget it and move on to something better.
     
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    deadly0311

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    I applaud the IPRF, dealing with internationally recognized shooting disciplines that compete for medals, that’s what it takes to get national level governments to come to the table. The PRS can’t and won’t ever be internationally recognized, sure there’s PRS affiliate series in other countries but it’s in name only.
     

    BullGear

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  • Nov 29, 2017
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    I don't see a remedy for the ails of the PRS shooting sports. Like mentioned, it's far too fractured with everyone running their programs as they see fit. Would it be possible to ever have a federation for the sport, yes, but not likely. Everyone seems to want their own piece of the pie. I feel for those who want a unified sport. Good luck in your endeavors.
     
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    Minuteman
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    That Shannon fella seems like a counterfeit. Seems that his exclusion policies would be counterproductive to shooting in general. This day in age we need to do all we can do to include everyone. The more local organizations we can get the bigger the sport will be.
     

    lowlight

    HMFIC of this Shit
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    Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Build the Individual Regions

    I would attempt to agree on the high level rules, the basics, this way when you compete against other regions you have a foundation - hence the need for a summit

    But also because of the format we currently use, I would want it to be dynamic like real life, not box people in but also don't let them buy their way out

    The current matches as shot aren't as much fun compared to the past in my opinion, to repetitive today.
     

    THEIS

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  • Nov 27, 2017
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    Hi,

    This may get long and may not so please bear with me as this is coming from more of a business side than competitor side.

    It is crystal clear that Shannon and the PRS series within itself want to isolate everything into their control and want everything to be by their say....SO in reality that makes them pretty easy to be made 100% irrelevant by having people just stop the following type things:

    1. Stop hosting PRS sanctioned matches.
    2. Stop allowing Shannon, K&M, PRS have a voice on any media platform that is not their own.

    From the outside of pure business view those 2 items are pretty simple yet guaranteed effective.
    If K&M training programs all the sudden went from capacity to empty....He would be more willing to sit at the round table for discussions.
    If every venue cancelled ALL of their PRS sanctioned matches for 2021....He would be more willing to RUN to the round table.

    The reverse side of "Exclusive/Inclusive/Control" is you are easily replaceable...Businesses do it every single day from executives to vendors.....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    lowlight

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    As more individuals try to take advantage of the popularity of PR Shooting, more of this becomes public

    Early on it's easy to control the message, as the ranks grow that gets harder.

    People see the attention, the money, and decide to build a stage in their area so they reach out to the National Guys. When their response is, It's us or nothing, some say, okay, it's US, let's go, because they feel that is their only choice. I want to enter this community as a MD, so that means PRS. It really doesn't but that is what they think so they agree.

    They you get others who try the same exact thing and when they receive this type of response, they say Fuck you, and create competing series or local matches to fill in the gap. That is great locally, gives people an outlet, but it kneecaps on the national level but they don't have any real support.

    More than once I have stated, what do you get in return for the fees paid, and the sponsorships enjoyed as a MD ? Very little if anything is the answer, and you are locked in to the deals above where you have no room to move, or grow, unless you grow within their rules.

    You don't need this label, it's not your only choice, you can build it better, stronger, more nimble to make changes as life changes
     

    INHUMAN

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    What a deal. This is part of the reason why I don’t get more involved. I like a lot of people and competitors in the sport. But the growing pains of the series groups, competition between entities, and the rising cost just to compete in these events has all added up to less participation in my part.
    I agree that a regional entity or loosely affiliated venues to create a series is the answer and has been the. Answer for a while.
    I like the idea of international competition, but it’s not something for me personally.
    whatever the new direction, I hope it benefits the shooters and new shooters alike.

    J. Willhite
     

    CV_Ag

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    Speaking from “the base”, or just an average full-time working American that likes to shoot on the weekends, WE JUST LIKE TO SHOOT! I’m tired of hearing the bitching from the top down. I shoot PRS and NRL because at points in the year they’re “local” to me. I could care less what three letter organization it falls under. We just like to see our friends and be competitive. The leaders are what’s tearing it apart. Get the dollar signs out of your eyes and swallow your ego and just work together to “support” the shooters instead of yourselves.
     

    Darkside-Six

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    Speaking from “the base”, or just an average full-time working American that likes to shoot on the weekends, WE JUST LIKE TO SHOOT! I’m tired of hearing the bitching from the top down. I shoot PRS and NRL because at points in the year they’re “local” to me. I could care less what three letter organization it falls under. We just like to see our friends and be competitive. The leaders are what’s tearing it apart. Get the dollar signs out of your eyes and swallow your ego and just work together to “support” the shooters instead of yourselves.


    Nailed it! 👏👏👏
     

    John MH

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    Aug 18, 2018
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    Whilst a laudable endeavour this initiative was not launched well, rushed would be my guess and not well thought out. I support the ideals of what the IPRF are trying to do, more shooting for everyone. Here in the UK the message has been lost in the poor way it was presented to the PR community; faceless emails to PR venues, invisible secret 'Provisional Executive Committees' and blatant nepotism.

    A hard reset maybe required in the UK but thats going to be a hard pill for some to swallow, hopefully they will have a eureka moment and do what is right.
     
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    THEIS

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    As more individuals try to take advantage of the popularity of PR Shooting, more of this becomes public

    People see the attention, the money, and decide to build a stage in their area so they reach out to the National Guys.

    Hi,

    This is the EXACT situation we see/seen with the ELR growth.

    For decades it was pretty much all about pushing boundaries however someone wanted to but when certain companies seen potential to hook their wagon to things...shit got stupid real fast.

    This rule, that rule, this weeks rule, next years rule, etc etc

    "We" are the controlling organization for all things ELR, no "We" are the controlling organization for all things ELR....

    Each and every single one were and are out for nothing more than their own biased reasons....and that is bottom line.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    Camoman1

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    Pathetic how threatened the PRS is by other organizations. I don’t understand why the PRS (and NRL?) are keeping MD’s from holding matches associated with other organizations, holding back progression of the sport. We need more organizations to grow and see where they take us, some will die off, the ones that grow will lead this sport to new better competitions, even though all Shannon wants is for us to be shooting our GAPs looking though our SKMR3’s off the same old PRS barricade. A world organization is exactly what we need, would be nice if they would run top national competitions as well.
     

    THEIS

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    Pathetic how threatened the PRS is by other organizations. I don’t understand why the PRS (and NRL?) are keeping MD’s from holding matches associated with other organizations, holding back progression of the sport.

    Hi,

    Well...there is actually a law written to stop that shit immediately!!!
    All comes down to the wording of the series telling the MD and/or facilities that.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    lowlight

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    State = Local Matches - build these up, they do all the heavy lifting

    Regional = Bridge Local matches together, then move up a level -->

    Nation = Bridge Regions w/ Playoffs Bracket Style heading towards a Championship

    National Championships --------> Move people Internationally

    As noted in a different discussion, all these matches are unique in a lot of ways. They are individually run and there is no standard to the course of fire. You can have some repeated stages, but they differ from Qualification Stages because they are not universal. You want to promote the randomness of the sport. We don't want to constantly repeat ourselves, we need to be unique in that we are not 100% standardized. That is where the fun and development come from.

    In my mind, the last 5 years of competition focused on the development of Parts and Products more than improving the level of competition. Guys running 20+LBS 6mms are more about the engineering than the shooting. If your goal is to remove shooter input, you are not a shooter.

    They stopped developing the series in order to develop products too be sold or promoted.

    Put the focus back in the competition, not so much into the gear
     

    poison123

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    LOL this is just showing what more than a few of us have known for many many years. That Shannon AKA The Python is a world class scumbag.

    I like how he talks shit about people "trying to create trouble in the PRS" when in fact back when he wasn't in charge thats all he bloody did. Or how about he created his own org with the South East stuff that wasn't technically apart of the PRS.

    The sooner people drop kick Shannon out of the sport the better it will get.
     

    MK20

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    Let's see if we can answer some of these questions.
    Here is a dose of truth for you Shannon.

    · Who owns the organization and how will it support its members?
    The IPRF you fucktard and it will support its members a hell of a lot better than the PRS does.

    · Why does the IPRF exist?
    Because the PRS sucks and is a bunch of prima-donnas who are so busy jerking each other off while telling each other how awesome their series is.

    o What is the IPRF reason for being?
    Because lots of us just want to shoot and not have to suck your dick, Shannon.

    o What does the community need in your area of expertise?
    The expertise of knowing how to not be a selfish, power-hungry asshole, and the expertise of knowing how to build something that more people want to come to than just your core group of butt buddies.

    o What is special about your organization? What do you do differently from other organizations that already exist?

    Well, they are actually holding a world championship. Apparently they can get it done in spite of covid, and you can't.

    o If your organization did not exist, what would be missing from the community?
    Let's turn that question around on the PRS, and the answer would be, Nothing.

    · Is their mission to act as a unifying body for the sport of precision rifle worldwide?
    Yep, cause the PRS sure as hell isn't filling the unity role. The PRS is emulating Biden's version of unity, "Submit or We Will Crush You".

    · Where does the IPRF see itself in 5 years and what plans are in place to get there?
    Superseding the PRS. Plans: be less douchy than the PRS and actually welcome folks to a sport in an effective way.

    · Does the IPRF plan to provide a framework, which currently looks strikingly similar to the PRS Rules and Guidelines, to countries who are just getting started in PRS competitions?

    When you are running a shooting comp that uses the same types of weapons, the rules will, of necessity, be similar you idiot. Hopefully countries will get involved in IPRF comps and avoid the colossal PRS trainwreck.

    · How is the IPRF different from the PRS International Series and what evidence is there that this is not going to be another competing organization?
    IT'S GOAL IS TO COMPETE WITH YOU. Or do you think you have a special charter from the royal king of shooting that there shall be no competition to the PRS?

    · How does the IPRF intend to unify the sport of precision rifle worldwide, while they leverage our name for a few years, then cut and paste our rules, classes, categories, divisions, etc. only to devise a duplicate version of the PRS International Series minus any real investment in building the sport at the grassroots level?
    They are not leveraging your name. They are trying to provide an alternative to your tarnished name and brand.

    · Does IPRF expect the PRS to collapse all PRS International Series and our plans to host a PRS World Championships which was delayed due to COVID?
    Nope, the customer will collapse your series for you when someone else who is less arrogant offers a better alternative. It's called capitalism. You may have heard of it.

    · Is it the intent of the IPRF to copy the PRS Framework, rules, and infrastructure that has been built by the PRS since its inception?
    No, because the way you are doing things sucks, so why would they copy it.

    · Why did the IPRF president, US representatives or leadership not contact the PRS for its support and involvement or for collaboration?
    Go read your email you arrogant twat.

    · Who elected the US leadership to represent us? Why didn’t the shooters, or established organizations in the US have a vote?
    Why would we want fruit from a poisoned tree? We want to cut you out all together if you keep acting like this.
     

    steelringer

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    Dang he’s something else. When the split of k&m happened I heard some things, and lots of good people supported Kay. I think it’s abundantly clear he wants control of this market and is willing to say anything and throw anyone under the boat. I would love nothing more than to see it go back to normal matches like the old days with good friends just shooting in crap weather and glancing targets.
     

    lash

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    This is why we can't have nice things,

    I talked about a lot of inside ball over the years in regards to competitions. As noted many times, this is not new, not even the idea of a series. In the early 2000s there was a series attempt and it failed. Part of the problem is growth and being forward thinking enough to understand, nobody owns this game. The idea that one group is in charge of Precision Rifle Competition is silly on its face, and insulting when you understand the history.

    When the PRS started in 2012 it was on the heels of what Jacob and I were doing at Rifles Only. Sure there was other matches here and there. In a typical year back in 2004 you might have 4 two day matches. Each one of those matches might have 50 shooters. The rules, the format, everything was flexible it was just a group of like minded people enjoying a hobby. As the community grew, in part because of Sniper's Hide, it was where everyone hung before the FB Groups, we discussed, coordinated, debated, and argued about what we are doing.

    The joint Sniper's Hide / Rifles Only matches set the standard, but that standard needs to change. The idea you could build a series around this game is flawed. We have too many individuals with to big of personalities to manage a one size fits all approach. The conflicts of the past divided the shooter community into East & West, North & South, Affiliated and Nomad. It's time for a change.

    2020 was a mess, Countries shut down, everyone on hold, but we managed.

    We need to reflect as a group and have a big reset. The mindset and reasonings have changed, the equipment has evolved, the locations have grown and adapted into something nobody really likes. We all recognize the benefit of competition shooting, but we also have to acknowledge the damage it has caused on across the board. Nothing we do is set in stone, there is no Association that oversees what we do, no governing board that requires we vote to change directions. We are still grassroots despite the money we bring in, and put out. So changes are really easy, you just have to agree to consider them.

    I think the regions are the answer, we can't have a National Governing Body in the United States. It's too fractured, broke, and beyond repair. Besides who really owns this... nobody. Before going too far forward, my thoughts are create Regional groups of like minded people. Determine your own rules and standards, and then if you have to test your work, find other regions to compete against. The Nationals Stage is broken beyond repair, it will never serve the community as a whole when it designed to enrich only a select few.

    Recently on the Everyday Sniper Podcast I have been talking to people about this very thing. Creating Regional Divisions for people to compete under. Those regions are working together to cut out the National organizations because of the in-fighting taking place. It's a natural thing when the big stage no longer works for the individual they will just build a community one for the locals to enjoy. As I have noted many, many times, I have turned into the Complaint Department for the Competition Series. The Series wants to control the message so the competitors find other avenues to get the message out. I happen to be that sympathetic ear. This stated, I have some communication between Shannon and the PRS in response to the International Precision Rifle Federation.

    The response from the IPRF will make it clear the inside ball, it will answer those questions the first email might not. So read both:

    PRS Email First :




    So they reached out to the various groups to Invite the PRS to send a Team to Compete, that was the answer above and here is their response below



    We are doomed to failure if we continue down this path.

    I think we need a Summit here in the United States, one that sits all interested parties down for a minimum of 2 days. One that hammers out the objectives of this community. One that puts to rest the infighting and disorganization, if a group does not want to play ball with the rest, that group can be an Island alone. From here changes can be made to reset things in a positive direction. Plenty of smart people engage in this activity we have more than enough examples to pick and choose from in order to build a better mousetrap. The direction things are currently moving on the big stage are short for this world. We can grow the sport together, or we can work without certain individuals and operate around them in other ways. This is not something one person should claim to own. We are barely playing with .1% right now, growing it together would be huge.

    There is the individual good, and the greater good. Today it's a bunch of individuals claiming to be working for the greater good, we all know that is bullshit to include me. We fractured and broke years ago and have been playing games ever since. Time to fix it or forget it and move on to something better.
    Wow! That is some serious shit that most of us do not get to see everyday. I think the most important part of all of this was pointed out on Rob’s reply; that the PRS, NRL or any other similar organization are brands, owned as are corporations. They are NOT unaligned international sports organizations. I think that this is the important distinction that they are missing.
    The current matches as shot aren't as much fun compared to the past in my opinion, to repetitive today.
    I agree, they have changed considerably in even the past five years. Every stage is 10-12 rounds in 90 seconds and it seems as if everything else is designed around that premise. Not my concept of how to design a solid stage.
     

    Krob95

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    Is there an issue with the NRL? Or just the cluster that is the PRS and their overly egotistical leader Shannon?
     
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    DJL2

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    Reading the PRS message left me with one overarching gut feeling:

    “GFYS, bro.”

    I guess we really can’t have nice things.
     

    Rob01

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    I would love nothing more than to see it go back to normal matches like the old days with good friends just shooting in crap weather and glancing targets.

    Bingo! Not sure why we need ANY organization. The ranges running matchs now will continue. I don't want or need anyone to keep track of my scores or have a finale. Bottom line is there were fun matches(actually more fun) before any "organization" and there will be after. I just act like they aren't there because they really don't effect me at all.
     

    verdugo60

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    There are a lot of “type A”, in-your-face personalities in this sport/industry, especially at the top. It’s the nature of things, those personalities are decisive and get things done and take leadership. Unchecked that can also become a feeling of “owning” things you don’t for profit or desiring more credit.

    I applaud Frank and Scott for their discussions in private and on Frank’s Podcast and efforts to smooth things over and to bring precision rifle back to a bit more practical skill sets. I shot both Scott’s matches last year and really enjoyed them. For PRS/NRL I’ll be participating in my local series, WYCO, which I’m really stoked to have available.

    If I get to the point I’m shooting well enough to do more National matches I’ll do NRL mostly. They represent the west better and seem to be more friendly to the little guy.

    The international concept is cool, an Olympics of precision shooting would be awesome, especially if it’s done in celebration of freedom and firearms proficiency and allows more people in other countries to practice their gun rights.

    FRIENDLY international competition and goodwill between international shooters would be truly awesome.

    I don’t know Shannon or all the various ownership issues regarding PRS but it seems like the LAST institution that would promote the above described international scene.
     

    Pvt.Donut

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    ^ didn’t this guy just come back from being banned lol

    Is there an issue with the NRL? Or just the cluster that is the PRS and their overly egotistical leader Shannon?
    I'm curious of this too. I've mostly shot NRL matches due to location. Seems I see a ton of drama around the PRS. Any PRS fans care to shed some insight on why PRS is preferred to the NRL. From the outside I'm not seeing a ton of reasons to shoot any PRS match ever again (not that I have a ton near me).
     
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    hic28

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    Is there an issue with the NRL? Or just the cluster that is the PRS and their overly egotistical leader Shannon?
    NRL is doing a much better job. They don’t restrict MDs from hosting other series. Also, the Hunter series and 22 series are doing great. The leadership of the NRL offers a lot of support to the community as well.

    Like @kriller134 said, best of the west series is a new series started by Tyler at MOA and it’s running with 3 other local south west clubs.

    january was our first month and it’s setup so people can track their scores throughout the year without having to pay a BS membership fee to follow your numbers.
     
    Last edited:

    LawnMM

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    Chickens coming home to roost. When you charge $50k to advertise a rifle that, literally nobody uses, as the "official rifle of the PRS" the logical outcome of corporate douchebaggery is obvious to anyone with a brain.

    Honestly, this is a lot like the last election cycle. The curtain has been pulled back and anyone sensible should realize what's really going on.

    In short, you're getting scammed. You're paying $100 to have your score recorded on a website, multiplied by a thousand or so people, 100k/yr and you get your score tracked.

    One of the reasons I left instagram was all the PRS official whatever widget of the PRS cash out blitz campaign. I think Gillette was the official razor of the PRS that year 🙄

    Wonder why other series or organizations are met with such vitriol? Because they threaten his checkbook. If he can't say he has the most members, prizes, etc. then he can't charge $50k/yr for branding as the official anal creme of the PRS.

    Dudes collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars per year and where does it go? I'm sure some gets invested in shooting venues like K&M... that he owns... that make him more money.

    Ever seen a match director receive a goodie bag or support in the form of targets, markers, scoring devices? The NRL does that. Then again, they're a non profit... that owns four wheelers, trucks, trailers, cause it's needed for running the non profit.

    Personally I'm pretty disgusted with series'eses in general. The NRL moving to this fiscal year shit basically torpedoed any chance of my participation for two years. Started moving dates around because of the china cold virus and I couldn't move my vacation time to go to matches. I vote my vacation for the year in November and their new season doesn't start till May. So I guess, I'm out.

    I'll go to a match here and there to hang with some friends but my days of participating in these stupid points races are over. Juice isn't worth the squeeze and that's coming from a guy who went to the championship so it's not like I'm some schmuck who's whining because I'm always dead last.

    And now... an expression through artistic memes:

    Random Bullcrap Go 11022021124537.jpg

    Mac and Charlie Crying 11022021124720.jpg

    Captain Phillips Look At Me 11022021125041.jpg

    To summarize my thoughts on points races and existing series:

    7j20N5.gif
    I'll go to outlaw matches or I'll attend a series match but I won't be a member. Waste of money. Maybe I'll read about the IPRF and see how this new Colorado/Wyoming match series goes.
     

    MK20

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    Yeah, there are a lot of type a guys in the sport. I am one of them. I just wish we could get back to shooting for fun. When we ran team internal comps the competition was BRUTAL, but we were competing for fun, together, not at the expense of being welcoming and helpful and basically cool dudes. A new guy on team would get fucking crushed in the comp and then get coached on how to become better. And the coaching would be kind and patient so that he would become a better team member. I guess that is really the bottom line. These PRS assholes are in a team of one, themselves. Everyone in the gun culture better start thinking like we are on the same team, or we will get crushed by this culture and administration. We are truly one team. That is what the gun culture is all about. We competed like hell, but it was for the fun of competing and shooting, not for the twisted narciccism an desire for control seen in that email. That has NEVER been welcome in the gun community. We as a culture better root this out fast or this new generation of shooters will be nothing like the last generation. And I am not talking about the old fudds.
     

    THEIS

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    After reading that email I will never attend another PRS match. Not giving that douchebag more money.

    Hi,

    Just imagine how fast the PRS would change their tune if ALL the venues and MD's call them up today and cancelled everything for 2021 and ran outlaw matches.
    Just imagine how fast Shannon would be open to discussions when there are zero PRS sanctioned matches other than his own, at his own facility....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    kthomas

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    That will only hurt the MD, range and more importantly you. Yes the PRS gets a small part of the match fee but just don't join and continue to shoot.

    And don't buy a PRS membership. That's what I've been doing for years.

    I couldn't care less about my score being tracked throughout the year, or the finale. I shoot for fun, to become a better shooter, and meet new people.

    I'm happy to support the match directors. The PRS, not so much.
     

    Rob01

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    And don't buy a PRS membership. That's what I've been doing for years.

    I couldn't care less about my score being tracked throughout the year, or the finale. I shoot for fun, to become a better shooter, and meet new people.

    I'm happy to support the match directors. The PRS, not so much.

    That is what "but just don't join" says in my post. Been doing it that way for years.
     

    THEIS

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    I'm happy to support the match directors. The PRS, not so much.
    Hi,

    So the shooters need to pressure the MDs and such that they not only will NOT participate in a sanctioned PRS match they host but more importantly that they WILL participate in a non affiliation match.

    Then the MDs do not have a reason to yoke themselves to a drowning ox.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    kthomas

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    A lot of us have known this for years. A lot of us have watched him Bully RO's for points. Dude is a huge shitbag.

    That's a shame.

    A lot of isn't public, I've heard the odd thing here and there about PRS leadership, but I have a tendency to ignore petty drama. Just don't have the time for it. In fact, all the petty drama in the precision shooting world is what pushed me off of social media. Can't handle that shit.

    Anyways, I'm curious to see how this shakes out. I think it's kind of incredible that the PRS thinks they own the sport, not only in the US, but worldwide. I don't think that's going to work out well for them.
     

    lte82

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    1,202
    I'm curious of this too. I've mostly shot NRL matches due to location. Seems I see a ton of drama around the PRS. Any PRS fans care to shed some insight on why PRS is preferred to the NRL. From the outside I'm not seeing a ton of reasons to shoot any PRS match ever again (not that I have a ton near me).

    90% of shooters in the PRS don’t actually care which league it is. I have four PRS matches in my state this year. Guess what Im going to shoot? Throw an IPRF, NRL, IDGAF, BBQ matches in there that’s well run and happening when I’m in town and I’ll probably shoot it too. I’ll let the owners / directors figure the drama out. The losers of this are the sponsors that just want visibility and to support the shooters that support them, and the shooters that feel like they have to choose one or the other.