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Rifle Scopes HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a scope that has what you people are talking about. It has not stopped me from making first round, and every subsequent round, hits out to 728 (the farthest I've had a chance to take it so far) yards. I thought this site was about tactical shooting. Not about who has the best gear. IMO the 3 most important qualities in a scope are that it 1. holds zero 2 returns to zero and 3 tracks correctly. Now, it seems to me that one needs to spend what these scopes cost to get all 3 of these features. The fact that these scopes have such a great reticle are just a bonus, adding to the value. I believe that the people in this thread who are complaining are like a white glove inspection in the military. They are looking for something wrong. They could buy a Hensoldt for $200 and it still wouldn't be right. Anyway, have fun complaining about your inferior purchase. </div></div>

haha...i think you either need to get laid or take an anger management class. Its a forum it's what "US" people do share expereinces. If it heats you up this much ignore it....
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a scope that has what you people are talking about. It has not stopped me from making first round, and every subsequent round, hits out to 728 (the farthest I've had a chance to take it so far) yards. I thought this site was about tactical shooting. Not about who has the best gear. IMO the 3 most important qualities in a scope are that it 1. holds zero 2 returns to zero and 3 tracks correctly. Now, it seems to me that one needs to spend what these scopes cost to get all 3 of these features. The fact that these scopes have such a great reticle are just a bonus, adding to the value. I believe that the people in this thread who are complaining are like a white glove inspection in the military. They are looking for something wrong. They could buy a Hensoldt for $200 and it still wouldn't be right. Anyway, have fun complaining about your inferior purchase. </div></div>

So if you buy a brand new car from a dealership and they accidentally spilled a can of orange paint on the hood of your new car, you don't bother mentioning it because it doesn't affect functionality right?

Can you make a first-round hit using a Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16X50 scope? If so, why would you ever spend a dollar more to get a USO, or a NF F1?
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So if you buy a brand new car from a dealership and they accidentally spilled a can of orange paint on the hood of your new car, you don't bother mentioning it because it doesn't affect functionality right?

Can you make a first-round hit using a Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16X50 scope? If so, why would you ever spend a dollar more to get a USO, or a NF F1? </div></div>

First of all, only retards buy brand new cars. Let someone else take the hit I always say. Second of all, you probably could make a first round hit with a Viper PST. I have one on my 22 and it is a hell of a scope. I buy a Nightforce or the HDMR for piece of mind. I KNOW those clicks are going to be right. With the PST, not so much.

ETA: I wouldn't buy a USO to sell with your money. But that's a different thread...
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: copdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well, sir, mine is at Bushnell being evaluated; they'll either repair it, replace it (again), or send me a check for the value of it. OTOH, I'll be glad to have you send me a USPS MO for its full value - $1400 - together with your offer for shipping it to wherever you are. Upon receipt of that MO, I'll instruct Bushnell to send it back to me in whatever condition it's in, and when I get it, I'll promptly forward it to you.
There, how's that for a deal
laugh.gif
So, PU or STFU
wink.gif
</div></div>


Hmmm weird... I bought mine for less then that brand new from a retailer. And mine works just fine. So good in fact....4 of my shooting buddies are buying 2 each.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I thought this site was about tactical shooting. Not about who has the best gear. </div></div>

What is this madness you speak?!?!?!??
wink.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

762 give it a rest. This thread is to discuss the problem some see in these scopes. Lets keep it on topic and civil. That's for everyone.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Well.. The verdict is back on mine. It turns out to be a matter of the HDMR having so much adjustemnt. Since I never mounted mine up and got a good zero, I simply handout it out at Hardrock for guys to play with. By the time I got it back, the elevation was about pegged out but since the scope uses locking turrets, it has hidden to me and I just didnt think about it. But you have to ask, why put in so much adjustment if it is detrimental? The answer from Bushnell is for the guys that want "to shoot to a mile if they want." So the answer is they decided to not limit the adjustment. Ill never use the max of the scope, but it is there if someone should want it. Just know, you may not be able to focus in at 21x if you use it.

According to bushnell cranking the scope to the near max is what caused me to not be able to focus in at 800-1000 due to internal stress? Once the scope was zeroed out it apparently fixed this issue.

The CA, while there, was never a deal breaker for me. So I have a new scope coming at the point, but would rather just have my old one back if nothing is wrong with it. There is no estimated tome of arrival on a new one. Bushnell did everything in their power to make me happy. If I wanted, all I would have to do is say "Just refund me" and they will.

Again.. you certainly don't have to agree with this. Its just what I was told on the phone by Bushnell.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Only complaint I have with mine is a slight amount of purplish outline on clear clear days. Haven't had it out much so I'm still feeling it out/fiddling with it. As far as I can tell tracking is spot on for me. I bought mine for 850, so for the money its not bad at all and will fit the OBR well for now tell I can upgrade. I WILL say that the only major complaint I have is a very touchy eyebox at 21x which can make it hard to see impact under recoil. I'm going to swap out my FH for a MB and see if that helps my blight. That and surpress it eventually.

I've saving for an upgrade, but I'm sold on the Horus reticles and Mil/Mil scopes.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well.. The verdict is back on mine. It turns out to be a matter of the HDMR having so much adjustemnt. Since I never mounted mine up and got a good zero, I simply handout it out at Hardrock for guys to play with. By the time I got it back, the elevation was about pegged out but since the scope uses locking turrets, it has hidden to me and I just didnt think about it. But you have to ask, why put in so much adjustment if it is detrimental? The answer from Bushnell is for the guys that want "to shoot to a mile if they want." So the answer is they decided to not limit the adjustment. Ill never use the max of the scope, but it is there if someone should want it. Just know, you may not be able to focus in at 21x if you use it.

According to bushnell cranking the scope to the near max is what caused me to not be able to focus in at 800-1000 due to internal stress? Once the scope was zeroed out it apparently fixed this issue. </div></div>

I noticed this issue with my HDMR, (dialing for elevation with the turret being topped out) when I was shooting at 2400Y. I ended up backing off 5 mil and held over to get a clear image. At a mile everything was fine.

Good to hear the problem wasn't a broken scope and that Bushnell is taking care of you.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Don't own one but might some day. CA's kinda interesting. I didn't know about it before but can now tuck it away for later. A few returns might spur someone at Bushnell to fire off an email to someone to look into it. No big. The important thing about a scope is "Can it get up and go to work every single day and do it's job without fail?".

What's interesting here is the knee jerk posturing that borders on an epileptic fit. Someone in white coats should following this.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Update,

I spoke to Bushnell today about the CA and they have reached some conclusions.

They took the scopes they received back for the CA and placed them in their testing equipment and while they can see some CA it appears to fall within their industry standards when compared with others. Now, noted they believe and I agree the color difference can give the appearance of standing out more than others because they have a purple / dark blue hue to it. But it is not so much that falls to the levels of outside what they consider acceptable. Especially when compared to their competition.

Bushnell said this has been a #1 priority for them over the last two weeks and impressed upon me how important this was that they address it.

One note both Bushnell and I saw, was the difference of <span style="font-style: italic">"hand holding"</span> versus mounting the optic. it appears, to both of us, that if you hand hold this scope you can create the issue and really exaggerate the problems you see as opposed to mounting it. This would account for the pictures viewed above through the scopes mounted versus scopes that were not mounted. Can you make this appear worse than it is, <span style="font-style: italic">"yes"</span> and they acknowledge that and hope to address that in the future, but mounted we both found the issue is greatly reduced. The off center viewing also appears to fall in line with the extreme elevation issues adding too it.

Over the last two weeks Bushnell has sampled those who are using the scope they know of, and asked about it. And the majority consensus was that until asked to actually look for it and create the issue, most had not seen or noticed it in actual use. This includes a group currently using the scope in snowy conditions. Because of this and the current status of the optic they don't plan on changing anything at this time.

The color difference is more than likely due to the coatings and with the high number of coatings used on each lens to the maximize the light transmission from their optics it would be a lot of work to isolate the coating that causes this particular issue to stand out for some shooters. So down the road you may see they change something but currently it is not possible to change it.

So if you have an issue with it, the best bet would be contact them. However understand if the scope is not mounted and you see the CA, try mounting and actually using it first. If after that you still feel it is a problem reach out to them, <span style="text-decoration: underline">but from me to you,</span> the best I think you'll see is an refund and not fix.

They do see it when looked at off center, they do acknowledge it and take this very seriously but at present there is no quick fix to satisfy those who have an issue with it. Which is not everyone, but a small cross section of users.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

LL,

Excellent update!! I look forward to hearing back from them. I'll post here what they tell me. Sure do appreciate your work on this issue.

tony
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

So what I'm hearing from Bushnell is that every $1500 scope will have about the same CA. It's snowing tonight. I'll check it out mananna.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike in Boise</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what I'm hearing from Bushnell is that every $1500 scope will have about the same CA. It's snowing tonight. I'll check it out mananna. </div></div>

That is not really what they are saying, they are saying, different scopes have different levels of coatings which can lead to different levels of viewable CA. They happen to push light transmission which creates the effect that is more visible due to the color variation. They want you see yellow as well as you see blue so that has trade offs.

If you compare it to a scope with a similar coating, like a Zeiss with a Loutec coating you would probably see the same thing, but that doesn't mean a NF will have the same level because they go for less color. At the same time they also acknowledge that off axis viewing enhances the CA as seen in their scope. Lined up correctly you don't.

I would recommend not trying to improperly translate their words. It never works out the same way.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike in Boise</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what I'm hearing from Bushnell is that every $1500 scope will have about the same CA. It's snowing tonight. I'll check it out mananna. </div></div>


I would recommend not trying to improperly translate their words. It never works out the same way. </div></div>

That's probably some solid advice if only a guy would take it.

Anyway, I looked through my scope today @ 20x in snowy conditions and noticed some slight fringing. I couldn't see it @ 10x. From where I stand, if it looks like a purple down comforter is laying on top of things, you got a problem. If it looks like a space blanket, get on with your life.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I just heard back from two gentlemen at Bushnell with respect to the second HDMR I sent to them. After evaluating it, much as Frank has already said, BPO made a decision during design and manufacturing with respect to enhancing light transmission v. CA reduction, and they chose to weigh more heavily in the lens coatings in the direction of the former, while at the same time attempting to minimize the latter. They offered to provide me with a full refund. I told them to send it back and I'll work with it just the way it is. I did that primarily, and virtually only, because I work well the the Horus reticle. End of story from me: BPO and Steve, Todd and Randy are stand-up folks and they did right by my investment. Now it's time for me to get on with my "shooting life.'
smile.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Frank and John, thanks for your attention to this "problem".

These look like very serious contenders in the upper "entry level" market.

Have you asked, or can you ask your contacts if they are considering addin illumination in the future?
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Just got off the phone with Bushnell.They said that the CA was exceptable to their standards and offered me a full refund on both my HDMRs.I am going to try them out in some tactical situations first before I make up my mind.They said the refund stands for 1 full year.Their customer service is up to par and I felt like they took care of my needs.Gonna mount the HDMRs on some LR applications and see if the extreme CA isnt as bad.Hopfully it works out because I do like evrything else about the optic.Take care everyone!
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Sounds like a real stand up company standing behind their product.Im defnitely getting one now..Plus I hear the SOC guys using these are happy with these scopes which is a pretty high testament.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I've had my HDMR G2 for a little over 2 months now and I have not noticed the problem. I have not been able to detect it in my scope even though I believe I know what to look for. I also got to look through another HDMR G2 last weekend at TVP and could not detect the issue with his scope either.

Performance wise, the scope does what I want/need it to do. It is accurate and repeatable. Also, I don't think the comparisons to street cars is a fair comparison, I think a better comparison would be to a race car. If your car is pretty and slow, but my car is ugly and fast, I will take my car all day. The bottom line is can you put hits on target when it counts. Everything else is just gravy.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Friend of mine got upgraded to an HDMR after a cheaper scope broke. He has since been told that he will not receive the scope for about four months and that they were not going to be shipping any of them due to the quality control issue. They last spoke yesterday. He has been speaking to the same lady as many of you. Just thought I would pass that along. After reading Lowlight's post I guess they may.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

got my second one back today from Bushnell. just got it mounted and eye relief setup. I'll at least be able to get it out the back yard tomorrow to check it out at 50 -100.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Today, just a few minutes ago, we've got a cloudless, blue sky, hard, bright sun, scope set up to view out the back, sliding glass door, door open: on 21x I can just make out some faint, purple outlining of hard, vertical edges on the white building 75-100 meters away. There is none at all along tree trunks or branches. It is minor in intensity and not at all distracting. Optical image looks better than it did when I had first gotten this (second) scope and looked through it.

This time, however, I had gotten a stock pack from Triad, built up my cheek position using camera bag inserts, and adjusted my eye-relief, so that I get a full ocular picture when I rest my cheek in position and open my eye. Interesting, the minimal amount of purple outlining does NOT increase in intensity, i.e., saturation, when my eye moves off the sight axis.

My scope is good to go for me! i'm not sure whether or not BPO did any adjustments to it. It arrived too late yesterday for me to call them. I'm a happy camper with Steve, Todd and Randy. Excellent CS, and now I get to learn my Tremor-2 reticle
smile.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

I've been following this thread and I think I'm satisfied with the information and outcome of the effort you guys put in and I'm about ready to purchase an HDMR...if I can find one in stock that is.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

yeah i tried to go through my local shop and were told that the only place they could get them ASAP was through MidwayUSA so if Scott will have some more next week by all means go with it!

I'll take mine out for the first time tomorrow but and really happy with it prior to my first shots and i doubt i'll end up being disappointed.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.......
200YardCATestB.jpg
</div></div>

This has been an interesting and informative thread for me. I am one of the guys on the fence (HDMR or SWFA) and from what I can see, CA, as it is shown in this thread would not be a deal breaker for me in either scope. Used a friends S&B a few weeks back and while a great scope, it seems that there is more parity in optical clarity than there used to be.

The picture above illustrates a different concern and is why I am on the fence. Notice how a dark background kind of hides the reticle? I've seen this be a problem in a hunting situation and I imagine that a tactical setting would be a challenge as well, especially with "christmas tree" style reticles.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

That's easily rectified with an illuminated reticle. Even if a small portion of the reticle is illuminated and more than just a center dot, hint hint Bushnell. The amount of CA in the above photo is minimal and unless someone received a scope with greater amounts of CA I can't see how it would throw off someones shot and lose them a match or buck.

Flyingbullseye
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.......
200YardCATestB.jpg
</div></div>

This has been an interesting and informative thread for me. I am one of the guys on the fence (HDMR or SWFA) and from what I can see, CA, as it is shown in this thread would not be a deal breaker for me in either scope. Used a friends S&B a few weeks back and while a great scope, it seems that there is more parity in optical clarity than there used to be.

The picture above illustrates a different concern and is why I am on the fence. Notice how a dark background kind of hides the reticle? I've seen this be a problem in a hunting situation and I imagine that a tactical setting would be a challenge as well, especially with "christmas tree" style reticles.</div></div>


Well this picture that you are referencing here is one of a NightForce NXS scope.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Bahahahah owned

I really like what i'm seeing in this scope,will be ordering one soon i think.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the_fng</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bahahahah owned

I really like what i'm seeing in this scope,will be ordering one soon i think. </div></div>

It's a great scope guys. I looked through a S&B and I gotta tell you, I can't tell a damn difference. this was only at a 100 yard range doing dot drills, but you really have to side by side compare to see or notice anything.

as far as CA, I never noticed it. now that of course I saw this thread, I'll end up seeing and it'll bother me.

good thing it won't bother me much. lol
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Well, now I see CA in all my scopes if I look for it. But with my Bushnell it was worse and had the ring around the outside. Bushnell is replacing the unit as they found it to be faulty, so unlike copdoc, something was off in my unit.

I will say that I really like this scope allot and am thinking of selling my nightforce and getting another with the h59 reticle to replace it.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

oh great...

i just looked through it and see the CA now. I'm always gonna look for it now
frown.gif
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Well guys, Ive been shooting along time, compeating in the LR Tac style matches since they started and I had never even heard of this contidion till this thread appeared. I have been using the HDMR for about a year now (yes I had a got a pre production model) and have 2 of the new G2DMR models as well. Again never noticed any CA. Now when I go to the range with any scope I catch myself looking for it. And guess what?? I can find it in every scope I own to some degree, from 3600 scopes to 300 dollor ones. So with that I can say that Im really not at all worried about it as Im pretty sure it has never caused me to miss a target.

Im extreamly happy with my HDMR Scopes and in case you guys havent noticed they have been making the top 10 in every match held since November when they came out.

If anyone is looking for one we have them in stock and will always try to keep them in stock as we think they are a great product!
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Really. I have an HDMR with the G2 reticle from GAP as well as a couple Schmidts and USOs. I can find the CA as well when I'm looking for it under conditions most likely to make it appear. But to me, its a non-issue.

The reticle in the G2 is so superior to, for instance, P4f, that my biggest problem is whether and when to swap out the Schmidt for the HDMR in my comp gun. I am definitely leaning that way for several competitions coming up in the next few months.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

+1 on the reticle. I think enough of the reticle and the scope itself that I did swap out a F1 and Razor on my main comp rigs. And Ive got another on order.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

Ditto. This should be a $1K scope, not $1.6K

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In case any of you care about my opinion haha. From my experience early on the HDMRs had quality issues to there was even a disclaimer from Horus saying that there maybe flaws in the scope when you receive them haha. The first scope I got from the LE discount plan had a big dent in the front of the scope so the sunshade wouldn't screw on and who knows how bad the internals where since i shipped it right back. My buddy then got his first one through the same program and the turrets where messed up...so 2 out of 2 were deffected...it was acceptable then because the scope was all hyped up and $800.00. And at that price it was the only scope that offered some of the advantages of the higher end scopes at a affordable price i.e. was a great deal.

Problem is now they went way up in price to $1,600.00 and they are not the quality of a Nightforce so now people are going stop excepting the the issues that they were willing to except at a different price point.

I think the scope is a good scope...i think it is priced too high for what it is, and I would love to see someone put this scope through true testing not a tracking test, but put it through the military standards test and see how it does.

Glass on mine was ok, but than again i never shot it in snowy or rainy conditions so who really knows.

that my $.02 :)


I personally feel that the scope works fine and will put bullets on target but that doesn't mean we should turn our heads when they jack the price of the scope up and teh quality seems to be going down.

</div></div>
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

You won't get a NEW NF F1 for 1300 or even 1600, so that is not much of an argument.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been using the HDMR for about a year now (yes I had a got a pre production model) and have 2 of the new G2DMR models as well. Again never noticed any CA. Now when I go to the range with any scope I catch myself looking for it. And guess what?? I can find it in every scope I own to some degree, from 3600 scopes to 300 dollor ones. </div></div>

While I am betting that George has a few more scopes laying around than I do, this echos my sentiments at this point. This year I have looked through just about all of the top running tactical scopes. In the right conditions all seem to have some CA. Some exhibit it more, some less. Some have a slightly different shade in the same lighting conditions.

When it all comes down to it, does it affect your ability to put lead on target?

If you want optical perfection, a $1K scope is not where you are going to find it.
 
Re: HDMR Quality Control - UPDATE

CA =
onoz_omg2.gif


Shoot the tango in the red shirt, no wait... purpley-chartrusey... wait...
 
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