Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

[JB02]

I have a newly rebarreled/trued R700 chambered in 300 WSM.

Factory ammo feeds fine.

For my reloads, I don't believe that my Redding 300 WSM F/L sizer die is backing the shoulder back far enough for the case to chamber properly, as I have difficulty in closing the bolt and extracting the fired cases for some rounds. This was also the case when I had the factory barrel on the rifle. Please note, these cases were trimmed to length, champfered, deburred, uniformed, ect. and were not loaded with hot charges.

After talking with Redding, they assured me that all I needed to do was screw the die farther in the press to get as much of the stroke as possible. I did that, but my cases were starting to dimple on the shoulder and just below the body/shoulder junction. Also, the shoulder was not completely concentric. This improved feeding, but a few cases out of my lot of 100 still had issues chambering. This just seems wrong and I am not comfortable with brass that is way oversized.

Perhaps I should note, the problem is intermittent. Some cases chamber fine, others don't. The cases that don't chamber right are often repeat offenders, but sometimes removing the case and placing it back in the magazine allows it to chamber with less difficulty.

Redding has asked me send some fired factory cases, fired reload cases, and reszied cases along with the die so they can determine if there is an issue with the die or with my chamber. I'm inclined to believe that there is some issue with this FL die because I had problems with the factory barrel too.

When I mentioned that factory ammo feeds great the tech mentioned that factory ammo is sized to minimum spec and that I would need a small base sizing die, which they do not manufacture, to get my brass to that dimension. I'm almost ready to purchase this new die, but I would like some input from others here on this forum. Because a small base die really puts strain on brass, I'm also considering just going with a Forster FL die. Any thoughts on this?

While I'm at it, should I just scrap my oversized cases and start from scratch with fresh brass?

Thanks.

 

[sinister]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

You may have to speak with one of the reloading die companies for a custom sizing die. I don't know of anyone who offers a factory small base die for 300 WSM.

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may have to speak with one of the reloading die companies for a custom sizing die. I don't know of anyone who offers a factory small base die for 300 WSM.</div></div>

RCBS makes one:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=RC30831

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

Send the die back to Redding with the cases that they requested. They will determine what the problem may be. They do know what they're doing.

Resizing issues come down to a few things. It can be the die is not screwed in enough. Just an extra 1/12th turn in can make all of the difference. The type and amount of resizing lube used can cause issues, like the dimpling you're referring to on your cases. Another issue that is pretty rare, but does happen is your decapping stem in the F/L die is adjusted too far down into the die and it is bottoming out on the web of the case, hindering fully sizing. Your decapping pin should only protrude about the thicknesses of two pennies.

There is a fine line between cases that chamber and those that won't. That's why we use gauges to determine how much shoulder bump we're getting when resizing. You may also have some brass that has been work hardened and is in need of annealing.

I have very close to minimum SAAMI spec chambers on two of my 308 Win. rifles. Both of my Redding dies, a body die and a F/L S die will resize cases down with no issue.

Your problem can be a combination of these issues. Consider getting a bump gauge, either Hornady or Sinclair to help you out with this.

Hope you get it figured out.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

This really does not sound like a small base sizing problem. But to determin what is causing the problem:

A) find a fired case that causes a sticky bolt lift.
B) color the whole cae with a sharpie (or equiv)
C) insert case into chamber
D) verify that the bolt is hight going into the locked position

If the case comes out with the shoulder area with marks taken off the sharpie, then the sizing dies is not down far enough in the press.

If the case comes out with the web area on the case with makrs taken off the sharpie, then a small base die may be in order.

If the case comes out with a scratch on the cse body, you might have a burr in the chamber.

You should also invest in a case shoulder mesurement device (RCBS case mic or Hornady caliper attachment.)

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLIGHT762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Send the die back to Redding with the cases that they requested. They will determine what the problem may be. They do know what they're doing.</div></div>

Already boxed up, ready to ship tomorrow.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLIGHT762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hope you get it figured out.</div></div>

Me too.

----

Mitch and Flight, thanks for the suggestion on the case shoulder device. I'm looking into one of these devices now.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

Even though they call the shoulder dimples "hydraulic" they are caused by the lube sealing the base and neck of the die so that the trapped air dimples the case. Evidence that by the fact that the case dimples aren't filled with oil. Really harmless. Some dies...Forster for example...provides an exit hole in the shoulder area for the air to escape. Redding doesn't. (At least on my dies they didn't.)

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even though they call the shoulder dimples "hydraulic" they are caused by the lube sealing the base and neck of the die so that the trapped air dimples the case. Evidence that by the fact that the case dimples aren't filled with oil. Really harmless. Some dies...Forster for example...provides an exit hole in the shoulder area for the air to escape. Redding doesn't. (At least on my dies they didn't.) </div></div>
naval person, Redding did a detailed analysis on all the fired cases as well as my sized cases. They did attribute the dimpling to excessive sizing wax. I had been smearing the wax in a bag and shaking the brass up in it. They recommended just wiping each case individually with a finger. Since I don't care for the dimpling I'll follow that recommendation but I would be open to any suggestions on how to more efficiently lube up the cases.

As far as needing a small base sizing die, the die I was using was replaced with a new one and I was given a new shellhoder. It looks like I was on the far extreme of tolerance with the old die and shellholder. My gunsmith told me that he did chamber the rifle with a match reamer and a small base sizing die would have helped from the get go, but the die and shellholder I have now from Redding will size the brass so that it fits. In any event, my gunsmith (a true, stand up guy) is doing a complete inspection and rechecking all the measurements to make sure I'm GTG.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a newly rebarreled/trued R700 chambered in 300 WSM.

Factory ammo feeds fine.

For my reloads, I don't believe that my Redding 300 WSM F/L sizer die is backing the shoulder back far enough for the case to chamber properly, as I have difficulty in closing the bolt and extracting the fired cases for some rounds. This was also the case when I had the factory barrel on the rifle. Please note, these cases were trimmed to length, champfered, deburred, uniformed, ect. and were not loaded with hot charges.

After talking with Redding, they assured me that all I needed to do was screw the die farther in the press to get as much of the stroke as possible. I did that, but my cases were starting to dimple on the shoulder and just below the body/shoulder junction. Also, the shoulder was not completely concentric. This improved feeding, but a few cases out of my lot of 100 still had issues chambering. This just seems wrong and I am not comfortable with brass that is way oversized.

Perhaps I should note, the problem is intermittent. Some cases chamber fine, others don't. The cases that don't chamber right are often repeat offenders, but sometimes removing the case and placing it back in the magazine allows it to chamber with less difficulty.

Redding has asked me send some fired factory cases, fired reload cases, and reszied cases along with the die so they can determine if there is an issue with the die or with my chamber. I'm inclined to believe that there is some issue with this FL die because I had problems with the factory barrel too.

When I mentioned that factory ammo feeds great the tech mentioned that factory ammo is sized to minimum spec and that I would need a small base sizing die, which they do not manufacture, to get my brass to that dimension. I'm almost ready to purchase this new die, but I would like some input from others here on this forum. Because a small base die really puts strain on brass, I'm also considering just going with a Forster FL die. Any thoughts on this?

While I'm at it, should I just scrap my oversized cases and start from scratch with fresh brass?

Thanks. </div></div>

I had the same issue with my bro in laws 3 Browning 300WSMs and this was with virgin brass. Of the 100 shells I reloaded I had to pull 14 of them and Full Length resize the brass with my Redding dies, apparently brownings have tight chambers. All I had to do was raise the ram and screw the resize die down til it touched the shellholder, no other issues were found, worked to perfection.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

Lcdr...good to know that you have found the solution! Glad that Redding stepped up with the diagnosis.

 

[Mark Walker]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

Exactly how far were/are you bumping the shoulder? You are measuring this, correct?

The finger swipe of imperial works perfectly, no need for any more lube on the cases.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be open to any suggestions on how to more efficiently lube up the cases.
</div></div>

I've used a lot of different case lubes over the years. I narrowed my sizing jobs down to two lubes. I use Imperial wax for small batches of resizing (20 or less cases) applying a small amount on each case. When I have a large amount of cases to resize (20+) I use Dillon spray. It's Lanolin / alcohol based. I put the cases in a cardboard box, spritz them, shake the box and spritz them again. Wait a few minutes and you're good to go. You can also use a large Zip Loc bag instead of the cardboard box.

No stuck cases using these lubes

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Walker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly how far were/are you bumping the shoulder? You are measuring this, correct?

The finger swipe of imperial works perfectly, no need for any more lube on the cases. </div></div>

I never had a need to measure the amount I was bumping the shoulder before. With all my rifles, if I ran my cases through my full length die they chambered in the rifle. Perhaps in this case, I was at the extreme edge of shellholder, die, and chamber dimension stack up tolerances such that my die and shellholder combo couldn't get the body of the case in far enough to squeeze it enough to chamber.

- Redding replaced the die with a new one and provided me with one of their knurled shellholders that should meet the chamber specs.

- According to my gunsmith, perhaps I should have used a small base sizing die as he chambered the rifle with a match reamer.

- My gunsmith is doing a complete inspection of the rifle and checking Redding's work and the new die to ensure everything is compatible.

- I have a set of headspace measuring tools on the way. I plan on using these tools from now on in my reloading process, bumping the shoulder back ~ 0.002".

The only issue I have with the finger swipe method is that reloading a batch of cases already takes a good bit of time. I think I might use FLIGHT762's suggestion of Dillon spray for resizing a larger quantity of cases.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
According to my gunsmith, perhaps I should have used a small base sizing die as he chambered the rifle with a match reamer. </div></div>
Your smith should have discussed this with you before he chambered your gun.
You're lucky you can buy a small base die.
I had a smith do the same, his only reamer, I had to throw 400 pieces of Norma and Lapua 6.5x284 brass away. I wasn't about to buy new, I just sold the gun.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Walker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly how far were/are you bumping the shoulder? <span style="font-weight: bold">You are measuring this, correct?</span></div></div>

I never had a need to measure the amount I was bumping the shoulder before. With all my rifles, if I ran my cases through my full length die they chambered in the rifle. </div></div>

Yes you did... You just didn't know it.

In "Reloading 101" class, you learn to raise the ram, screw the die down till it makes contact with the shellholder, and then add another 1/8 - 1/4 turn.

Unfortunately, anyone even somewhat serious about reloading should IMMEDIATELY progress to "Reloading 201", which teaches how to properly set a sizing die according to how much it is moving the shoulder.

I highly recommend you purchase, and acquaint yourself with a suitable tool for measuring this important feature. It will make your reloading adventures safer, and your brass last much longer.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

All FL rifle dies should be set up with a Headspace Gauge, the instructions that come with most FL dies should only be used as emergency toilet paper.

If you set up your FL die with a HSG and bumped the shoulder no more than .0015(bolt action) and the brass fired from another chamber will not chamber the area above the web is too big, my recommendation is to shit can that brass, the cost of another die just to size brass fired from another weapon is counter productive.

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
In "Reloading 101" class, you learn to raise the ram, screw the die down till it makes contact with the shellholder, and then add another 1/8 - 1/4 turn.

Unfortunately, anyone even somewhat serious about reloading should IMMEDIATELY progress to "Reloading 201", which teaches how to properly set a sizing die according to how much it is moving the shoulder.

I highly recommend you purchase, and acquaint yourself with a suitable tool for measuring this important feature. It will make your reloading adventures safer, and your brass last much longer.</div></div>

Absolutely right. Headspace tools are in the mail. Already read up on how to use them. Never bothered doing this earlier because what I had was working for me before and I only have so much money to spend.

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your smith should have discussed this with you before he chambered your gun.</div></div>
Yes, I totally agree, but it's a bit too late for that now.

 

[JB02]

Re: Help Please - Do I need a small base sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my recommendation is to shit can that brass</div></div>

Way ahead of you. Gunsmith has the resized brass and several fired cases along with the cases Redding analyzed. All of that brass, in addition to what I have left in the ammo box is getting tossed.

I'm not sure I agree that the die instructions are quite as bad as you claim, as they worked fine for me, including for 2 Surgeon rifles I have owned, until my gunsmith built me a gun with an extra tight chamber (he also is making sure his work was done right). Bad things can happen when you don't know what you don't know. At least now I know what I didn't know.