Henderson neck turning

[357Max]

I made a thing & it works well. I used 1" bar stock cause that's what I had, but 1.25" may be a little better. I'm going to counter bore the case entrance a little bigger to help it clear chips better. Very accurate though. Trim first and easy change over to neck turn.

@flyer1a - Someone with CNC machines should make these. Forester carbide neck turning bits & could use century 21 or whoever mandrels.
Just used a 1"-2" mic to set the cutter.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I made a thing & it works well. I used 1" bar stock cause that's what I had, but 1.25" may be a little better. I'm going to counter bore the case entrance a little bigger to help it clear chips better. Very accurate though. Trim first and easy change over to neck turn.

@flyer1a - Someone with CNC machines should make these. Forester carbide neck turning bits & could use century 21 or whoever mandrels.
Just used a 1"-2" mic to set the cutter.

View attachment 8776377

View attachment 8776378

View attachment 8776379
View attachment 8776380

I'd buy this product in a heartbeat.

 

[Bacarrat]

I'd buy this product in a heartbeat.

Yeah me too.... if it didn't already buy the K&M kit this year.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Yeah me too.... if it didn't already buy the K&M kit this year.

I've got the 21st Century lathe, but it's yet another tool for the bench. If I could simply change out a cutting head like I change out the trimming heads on the Henderson, then it would make neck turning much easier.

 

[Claytallica]

Send it to Hornady and I’m sure they would do it for their knock off trimmer. They don’t even need to steal the idea

 

[flyer1a]

I think the obvious target for this would be Henderson!

 

[padom]

I was gonna ask, did you contact Henderson about this??

I'd buy it

 

[357Max]

I was gonna ask, did you contact Henderson about this??

I'd buy it

I haven’t, but I’ll reach out to them. Mine is the gen 2 that uses forester 3 way heads. Looks like they make their own for the gen 3 though.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Looks like they make their own for the gen 3 though.

They do - I like them better.

 

[JaoeyP]

 

[John Glidewell]

I've got the 21st Century lathe, but it's yet another tool for the bench. If I could simply change out a cutting head like I change out the trimming heads on the Henderson, then it would make neck turning much easier.

But you can. I have the 21st century mini lathe with 3 way trimmer and the neck turning head with 30, 35 and 40 degree cutters. Not difficult to change out and set up. I do it in a few minutes, very simple.

 

[357Max]

View attachment 8778014

View attachment 8778014

 

[45-90]

I tried two of the Henderson combination heads and found them totally unworkable, for taking off alot of brass in a hurry...$66 each wasted...should a tried one first.

But a few reloaders gave them good reviews... so I tried it.
Even tried the little carbide blade for just cutting to length in a Bridgeport mill... final conclusion it's not for me...ridiculously slow, champher uneven...can't push it.

Just use a carbide end mill designed for cutting at high rate of speed. Very fast cutting time around one to two seconds on .1" to 1/4 " of brass removal.

The best method for neck turning is a precision lathe...make the turning mandrel fit your brass on the lathe, turn into the shoulder, about 6 pcs per minute.

Gotta get it done. These tiny toys don't cut it...cutting to length and neck turning on an industrial scale, especially when forming nonstandard calibers.

 

[357Max]

45-90 is right about the triway cutters sucking if you have to remove .100 + like you do for these Sig 277 - 6.5C conversions.
Problem is not everyone has a precision lathe with 220 3 phase etc.
I tried turning some of these Sig cases on my mini lathe and it was painfully slow.

This cutter rocks now that I fixed the chip clearing. Also found an easier way to set cutter depth by just putting a .015 feeler gauge between cutter and mandrel. Cut necks to .014" on the money.

That little Lyman rips bulk cuts off when you need to remove a lot so it'll stay on my bench. I just trimmed to within about .005 on the Lyman.

Reshaped the neck turn tool so it wouldn't clog up with chips every 3 cases.

After fixing the cutter head I tried my first run of 120 cases.

Trimming .005 with the tri-way took 20:05 minutes measuring 1 in about every 10 or so.

Neck turning took 23:12 minutes. I don't really have a frame of reference if this is good? Beats the living snot out of my mini lathe.
I'm not really a fan of turning necks but these 277 Fury cases are great in a large frame AR 6.5C & they kind of need it.

Snipers Hide loads using these cases.

I wasn't trying to load this hot dammit. Intent is to just run near max pressure bolt gun loads in the AR without tearing up cases.
Let's just chalk this up to science. Will not run at this level, but Damn.

It's nice using cases that have pressure head room. For whatever reason all 3 of these beat the hell out of predicted velocity using 3 different powders. All loads were in 3 x fired converted Sig Fury cases.

18" AR with +2" RL gas 7.5 twist suppressed. All ejected at 3:00 - 4:00 o'clock without any gas adjustments between loads.

144 Berger LRHT seated 2.850" using Alliant RL-26 Just wanted to confirm these mag fed without issue (they did) and hoped for 2720ish Fuck me.
Per Gordon's this should've been 2735fps & 62K psi
Based on Speed below these were probably 70K psi.

130 Berger AR Hybrid OTM seated 2.820" Using Vit N550
Gordon's is typically close with Vit N550, but not this time. Predicted speed for load below was 2777 @63k psi.
Someone must of poured extra Nitro in this lot.
Based on speed this was probably 75k psi giving these Fury cases a workout.
I'll revisit this powder -2gr and see how it does.

Hornady 100gr eldm-VT's Using Alliant RL15.5 seated 2.820"
Gordon's prediction for this load was 3100 @63k psi
Reality 65k psi & no sweat for these cases. They held moa @100 so I sent 5 at 600y steel. Saw impacts but no trace. Dam things get down there quick.

 

[straightshooter1]

45-90 is right about the triway cutters sucking if you have to remove .100 + like you do for these Sig 277 - 6.5C conversions.
Problem is not everyone has a precision lathe with 220 3 phase etc.
I tried turning some of these Sig cases on my mini lathe and it was painfully slow.

This cutter rocks now that I fixed the chip clearing. Also found an easier way to set cutter depth by just putting a .015 feeler gauge between cutter and mandrel. Cut necks to .014" on the money.

That little Lyman rips bulk cuts off when you need to remove a lot so it'll stay on my bench. I just trimmed to within about .005 on the Lyman.
View attachment 8780984

Reshaped the neck turn tool so it wouldn't clog up with chips every 3 cases.

View attachment 8781000View attachment 8780995

After fixing the cutter head I tried my first run of 120 cases.

Trimming .005 with the tri-way took 20:05 minutes measuring 1 in about every 10 or so.

Neck turning took 23:12 minutes. I don't really have a frame of reference if this is good? Beats the living snot out of my mini lathe.
I'm not really a fan of turning necks but these 277 Fury cases are great in a large frame AR 6.5C & they kind of need it.

View attachment 8781013

Snipers Hide loads using these cases.

I wasn't trying to load this hot dammit. Intent is to just run near max pressure bolt gun loads in the AR without tearing up cases.
Let's just chalk this up to science. Will not run at this level, but Damn.

It's nice using cases that have pressure head room. For whatever reason all 3 of these beat the hell out of predicted velocity using 3 different powders. All loads were in 3 x fired converted Sig Fury cases.

18" AR with +2" RL gas 7.5 twist suppressed. All ejected at 3:00 - 4:00 o'clock without any gas adjustments between loads.

144 Berger LRHT seated 2.850" using Alliant RL-26 Just wanted to confirm these mag fed without issue (they did) and hoped for 2720ish Fuck me.
Per Gordon's this should've been 2735fps & 62K psi
Based on Speed below these were probably 70K psi.
View attachment 8781021

130 Berger AR Hybrid OTM seated 2.820" Using Vit N550
Gordon's is typically close with Vit N550, but not this time. Predicted speed for load below was 2777 @63k psi.
Someone must of poured extra Nitro in this lot.
Based on speed this was probably 75k psi giving these Fury cases a workout.
I'll revisit this powder -2gr and see how it does.
View attachment 8781022

Hornady 100gr eldm-VT's Using Alliant RL15.5 seated 2.820"
Gordon's prediction for this load was 3100 @63k psi
Reality 65k psi & no sweat for these cases. They held moa @100 so I sent 5 at 600y steel. Saw impacts but no trace. Dam things get down there quick.
View attachment 8781024

Am very curious. . . how many rounds of these hybrid cases have you fired in that barrel?

Have you inspected the chamber with a bore scope to see a ring developing where that steel head and brass body junction is?

 

[357Max]

Am very curious. . . how many rounds of these hybrid cases have you fired in that barrel?

Have you inspected the chamber with a bore scope to see a ring developing where that steel head and brass body junction is?

I've got about 500 of these hybrid through it so far. Will be cleaning it today so I'll take a look with the bore scope.
When I resize these, it doesn't touch the lower steel portion so I'd be shocked if there's even a mark.

I've heard there's been separations at the steel brass junction in the Fury 80k rounds and I bet that leaves a mark.

 

[straightshooter1]

I've got about 500 of these hybrid through it so far. Will be cleaning it today so I'll take a look with the bore scope.
When I resize these, it doesn't touch the lower steel portion so I'd be shocked if there's even a mark.

I've heard there's been separations at the steel brass junction in the Fury 80k rounds and I bet that leaves a mark.

Well, I was shocked to see a ring in my chamber with less than 100 rounds of the hybrids fired. The ring appears to be from gas leakage, much like one sees when gases leak past primers and etches a bolt face. I was motivated to take a look at my chamber after someone else posted a picture of their chamber after ~320 of not so hot rounds showing substantial etching. Someone in another forum suggested that the "ring" was due to the pounding of the steel case head against the steel chamber that'd form a ring. But that other guy's chamber and mine does not look like any kind of impact deformation. So, I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing what you find after ~500 rounds.

 

[45-90]

I have been shooting hybrid cases in many different calibers both AR 10 and bolt guns, early on.
My two most abused rifles for testing were both bolt 308s...after a fairly long period of time both had a dark discolored ring in the chamber metal...but never kept track of round count.
It looks like high pressure gas is leaking from the case joint cutting into the chamber wall ever so slightly...but causing a problem and cases would seperate there.

Thought maybe it was my earlier cases being thin or not sealing the high pressure gas completely inside the case.

These hybrid cases were purchased from early pull downs...Were they discarded because this batch had a known problem with sealing and sold to the public?...or was it from several reloadings stressing the case joint? Had the internal design been changed to address this problem?

So I reported it as soon as it was noticed.

Rechambered the two rifles and set the barrels back, and retime the muzzle brakes.

Not a big deal for me, except annoying setting a barrel back early ...but, for those who do not do their own barrel work, this could be a big negative game changer to send the gun off to a qualified gunsmith.

We need more reports on this to see if this issue has been resolved with the hybrid cases.
If it continues, I can not be a proponent of the hybrid case as in the past, with all the positives of speed with accuracy when the cases are processed correctly.
Here is what it looks like...the fix is recut the chamber deeper, and set the barrel back.

The groove develops deep enough the brass portion has to be machined out with the chamber reamer.
I had to do this with 2 bolt guns in 308 one long barrel and one short barrel.
Both somewhat abused with lots of high pressure loads in both hybrid and brass cases, but way too early to be doing a barrel rechamber and setback in a 308.

Bottom line we need to know if the military or civilians using these hybrid cases are having the same problem...or its been resolved and I'm using an old internal case design that has been discarded.

 

[357Max]

I have been shooting hybrid cases in many different calibers both AR 10 and bolt guns, early on.
My two most abused rifles for testing were both bolt 308s...after a fairly long period of time both had a dark discolored ring in the chamber metal...but never kept track of round count.
It looks like high pressure gas is leaking from the case joint cutting into the chamber wall ever so slightly...but causing a problem and cases would seperate there.

Thought maybe it was my earlier cases being thin or not sealing the high pressure gas completely inside the case.

These hybrid cases were purchased from early pull downs...Were they discarded because this batch had a known problem with sealing and sold to the public?...or was it from several reloadings stressing the case joint? Had the internal design been changed to address this problem?

So I reported it as soon as it was noticed.

Rechambered the two rifles and set the barrels back, and retime the muzzle brakes.

Not a big deal for me, except annoying setting a barrel back early ...but, for those who do not do their own barrel work, this could be a big negative game changer to send the gun off to a qualified gunsmith.

We need more reports on this to see if this issue has been resolved with the hybrid cases.
If it continues, I can not be a proponent of the hybrid case as in the past, with all the positives of speed with accuracy when the cases are processed correctly.
Here is what it looks like...the fix is recut the chamber deeper, and set the barrel back.

The groove develops deep enough the brass portion has to be machined out with the chamber reamer.
I had to do this with 2 bolt guns in 308 one long barrel and one short barrel.
Both somewhat abused with lots of high pressure loads in both hybrid and brass cases, but way too early to be doing a barrel rechamber and setback in a 308.

Bottom line we need to know if the military or civilians using these hybrid cases are having the same problem...or its been resolved and I'm using an old internal case design that has been discarded.

So that was a separation that left the brass portion in the chamber & you removed it with a reamer???

 

[45-90]

Once the head separations start, it won't be long before other easier methods of case head separation removal no longer work.

At high pressure the thin brass is forced into "the ring" and forms a mechanical lock with the chamber.

Broken shell removers, and even previously successful lead pour method no longer work.
The case brass is locked in the "groove- ring" in the chamber, as the SS case head just falls off. So it must be machined out or cut out with a reamer.

 

[357Max]

Well, I was shocked to see a ring in my chamber with less than 100 rounds of the hybrids fired. The ring appears to be from gas leakage, much like one sees when gases leak past primers and etches a bolt face. I was motivated to take a look at my chamber after someone else posted a picture of their chamber after ~320 of not so hot rounds showing substantial etching. Someone in another forum suggested that the "ring" was due to the pounding of the steel case head against the steel chamber that'd form a ring. But that other guy's chamber and mine does not look like any kind of impact deformation. So, I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing what you find after ~500 rounds.

I sectioned a case when I first decided to load these to see how there locked.
You can see that it would be unlikely to get any gas leakage at the seam unless it was about to separate there.

What I've found with these is that if pushed hard & the steel expands more than about .0015" there done IMO. If the FL die ends up sizing the steel portion from the seam down say .100 or so then the base will spin. If that happens I throw them in the scrap pile.

My chamber pics for @straightshooter1

This barrel looks like hell in the bore scope but it shoots really well. It's also nitrited.
Gas port erosion looks pretty good overall

Start of free bore

Leed into rifling has a little fire cracking.

Chamber start has a few barrel worms.

Now the part your interested in That first .200 or so where the steel base is.
Few different views. I'm not seeing an issue in my case.
It has a definite color change where the steel base is but no ridge, grove, or depression. It's just discolored. I stuck a long angled pick in there and I can't feel a thing passing through the transition.

I have a different theory about the discoloration.
The steel base is slightly undersized from the brass to begin with and when pressure is kept reasonable that steel doesn't expand. When I resize the FL die doesn't touch it.
My theory is that the slight extra clearance at the steel base area is allowing some carbon to form there, hence the discoloration. The brass also gives more heat transfer to the chamber as apposed to the steel.

Looking at same spot with bore scope inserted from front.

 

[45-90]

I sectioned a case when I first decided to load these to see how there locked.
You can see that it would be unlikely to get any gas leakage at the seam unless it was about to separate there.
View attachment 8781810
What I've found with these is that if pushed hard & the steel expands more than about .0015" there done IMO. If the FL die ends up sizing the steel portion from the seam down say .100 or so then the base will spin. If that happens I throw them in the scrap pile.

My chamber pics for @straightshooter1

This barrel looks like hell in the bore scope but it shoots really well. It's also nitrited.
Gas port erosion looks pretty good overall
View attachment 8781811Start of free bore
View attachment 8781813
Leed into rifling has a little fire cracking.
View attachment 8781815
Chamber start has a few barrel worms.
View attachment 8781817
Now the part your interested in That first .200 or so where the steel base is.
Few different views. I'm not seeing an issue in my case.
It has a definite color change where the steel base is but no ridge, grove, or depression. It's just discolored. I stuck a long angled pick in there and I can't feel a thing passing through the transition.

I have a different theory about the discoloration.
The steel base is slightly undersized from the brass to begin with and when pressure is kept reasonable that steel doesn't expand. When I resize the FL die doesn't touch it.
My theory is that the slight extra clearance at the steel base area is allowing some carbon to form there, hence the discoloration. The brass also gives more heat transfer to the chamber as apposed to the steel.
View attachment 8781822

View attachment 8781823

View attachment 8781824

Looking at same spot with bore scope inserted from front.
View attachment 8781825

Okay ...Here's proof!
I just went out and milled one of my "fired cases" that had been reloaded.
There is a gap from the primer pocket to the surface of the joint where the stainless head and brass meet.

Look how clean the separation is on the Stainless steel head...high pressure gas entered the gap between the two pices and separated them allowing the high pressure gas to cut a ring in the chamber.

Allowing up to 80,000 psi to erode the chamber there. That's why the discolored carbon look to the ring in the chamber.

Easily seen for yourself, the gap, the separation of the two components..

My cases were some of the early cases but I believe nothing has changed in their production...until I see proof of such.

So at this time I'm gonna say shoot them 1 time, after forming and throw away.
Unless you like rechambering your rifle too soon.

I'm working with Federal's steel cases which are one piece steel...shouldn't have this problem...nothing has cropped up so far...

 

[straightshooter1]

I sectioned a case when I first decided to load these to see how there locked.
You can see that it would be unlikely to get any gas leakage at the seam unless it was about to separate there.
View attachment 8781810

Yeah, when I first looked at this design, I though surely pressure would lock the brass tightly against the steel and prevent any gas leakage. . . regardless of the pressure it's under. But I have a theory that the leakage might have something to do with the amount of clearance between the case and the chamber is a key factor; a lot of clearance allowing the difference in the to metals expansion and contraction during the firing process.

What I've found with these is that if pushed hard & the steel expands more than about .0015" there done IMO. If the FL die ends up sizing the steel portion from the seam down say .100 or so then the base will spin. If that happens I throw them in the scrap pile.

My chamber pics for @straightshooter1

This barrel looks like hell in the bore scope but it shoots really well. It's also nitrited.
Gas port erosion looks pretty good overall
View attachment 8781811Start of free bore
View attachment 8781813
Leed into rifling has a little fire cracking.
View attachment 8781815
Chamber start has a few barrel worms.
View attachment 8781817

I've fired these cases twice with normal and high pressure and none of my cases spin, enough though they've expanded by .002 - .0025". My cases after firing are at .470" and end up .468 - .4675 after sizing. . . at the steel. My regular brass is typically .470 after firing and .4690 after sizing. Again, none of my cases have any spin, before or after sizing and the two metals are apparently locked together pretty tight.

Now the part your interested in That first .200 or so where the steel base is.
Few different views. I'm not seeing an issue in my case.
It has a definite color change where the steel base is but no ridge, grove, or depression. It's just discolored. I stuck a long angled pick in there and I can't feel a thing passing through the transition.

I have a different theory about the discoloration.
The steel base is slightly undersized from the brass to begin with and when pressure is kept reasonable that steel doesn't expand. When I resize the FL die doesn't touch it.
My theory is that the slight extra clearance at the steel base area is allowing some carbon to form there, hence the discoloration. The brass also gives more heat transfer to the chamber as apposed to the steel.
View attachment 8781822

View attachment 8781823

View attachment 8781824

Looking at same spot with bore scope inserted from front.
View attachment 8781825

Hmmmm??? I'm a little surprised you don't see the deep etching into your chamber that I see. It certainly looks like a grove to me. On my chamber, I used a dental pick to see if I could feel that grove (much like feeling for case head separation signs), but could not feel anything; thinking my grove was not deep enough yet to feel, given just under 100 rounds fired. But interestingly, I did notice on my normal brass cases after firing, there was a very slight visible ring left on my cases at that same junction point. But it couldn't be felt, but could be seen with a bright light shining at an angle.

Regarding your theory . . . where is that carbon coming from. If the neck, shoulder and case body is sealing off, carbon shouldn't be blowing back there, otherwise you'd have carbon on the shoulder and below the shoulder too. huh? When I inspect my hybrid cases after firing, there's nothing on them indicating any kind of carbon blowing back.

As 45-90 pointed out about what he found, once that grove gets deep enough, the pressure is going to force brass into the grove to a point where there's not enough springback to get out of the grove and the case will be locked in. That ring round my normal brass that I mentioned above indicates that's already what normal pressure is doing.

What measurement to get at the .200 line area after firing and after sizing? I'm wondering how different yours is than mine, if any.

 

[357Max]

I did notice on my normal brass cases after firing, there was a very slight visible ring left on my cases at that same junction point. But it couldn't be felt, but could be seen with a bright light shining at an angle.

Hell of a thread derail, but what the hell. Good information coming out.

It's not just the seam ring that's visible. The entire area where the steel is chamber supported is visible on the brass.
Hard to capture well in a photo. Can't feel it at all.

For reference to measurements on following pics.
All cases below shot same range trip.
The Lapua small primer case was a very hot load trying N550 with 130's certainly over-pressure.
The Sig case on right was from the 144's @2830 so pretty hot 70k psi

.200 line for above cases.
FWIW I also measured a Hybrid case fired within SAAMI pressure 135 Atip @2750 & it measured the exact same at the .200 line vs the 144 @2830.

Regarding your theory . . . where is that carbon coming from. If the neck, shoulder and case body is sealing off, carbon shouldn't be blowing back there, otherwise you'd have carbon on the shoulder and below the shoulder too. huh? When I inspect my hybrid cases after firing, there's nothing on them indicating any kind of carbon blowing back.

Mine were all shot suppressed, they come out filthy.
Brass case on left below was wiped down with alcohol & the heaviest carbon deposits are in the extractor groove.
You can see the carbon on the steel & in the groove. It's just a theory, I don't know?

 

[straightshooter1]

Hell of a thread derail, but what the hell. Good information coming out.

It's not just the seam ring that's visible. The entire area where the steel is chamber supported is visible on the brass.
Hard to capture well in a photo. Can't feel it at all.

For reference to measurements on following pics.
All cases below shot same range trip.
The Lapua small primer case was a very hot load trying N550 with 130's certainly over-pressure.
The Sig case on right was from the 144's @2830 so pretty hot 70k psi

View attachment 8782475
View attachment 8782471

I've not seen any of that on any of my cases, regarding that more where "the steel is chamber supported".

.200 line for above cases.
FWIW I also measured a Hybrid case fired within SAAMI pressure 135 Atip @2750 & it measured the exact same at the .200 line vs the 144 @2830.
View attachment 8782477View attachment 8782478

View attachment 8782479

And I though mine were moving excessively. That much movement kind of explains why the steal head spinning after a firing or two.

Mine were all shot suppressed, they come out filthy.
Brass case on left below was wiped down with alcohol & the heaviest carbon deposits are in the extractor groove.
You can see the carbon on the steel & in the groove. It's just a theory, I don't know?
View attachment 8782482

Yeah . . . there's this difference too where I'm shooting out of a non suppressed bolt gun.

 

[45-90]

Took the milled case, put a little pressure on the case head by hand ...it popped off! Much easier than I'd expected.
Lined it up and pushed it back on with my thumb...
It wasn't on square so...
A light tap on the bench to seat it.
Interesting...
Just information for what its worth.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I would not neck turn unless you are cutting the ID and OD. Kinda pointless without controlling both sides and preventing taper.

Its a neat idea and Henderson has been working on a neck turner attachment for a while for their trimmer. I remember hearing about it years ago.

 

[45-90]

After FL sizing, mandrel up, turn neck into the shoulder, but I turn the whole shoulder 20° or 30° to match with a sharper radius than print to eliminate the donut on the inside, with a ground carbide form tool.


Then there is usually no problem with the donut on the ID...and you'll notice excess metal coming of the neck as it approaches the shoulder.

Sometimes case forming is done a different way and the ID is machined, but that is rare and unnecessary IMO for most projects like the .510 project in the picture...all ya gotta do is measure the neck diameter, thickness, and check TIR.

Do whatever works for you and meets your standards, and add machine power whenever ya can to make it easier.