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Advanced Marksmanship Heresy! Todd Hodnett says bubble level is essential!

Racer88

Firearms Pedant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 10, 2018
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    What one piece of gear do you think every long-range shooter needs?

    TH: A bubble level. I don't care if it's one of mine or someone else's because if you're canted at all, you'll blame a miss on a bad wind call. You end up doubting your wind call if you're canted into or away from the wind. Cant is one of the biggest problems people have, but is the cheapest to fix.



    But, he also recommends a $9,000 rangefinder, sooo..... o_O
     
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    I think if you a newb without some experience at what the reticle is supposed to look like on uneven ground they’re quite helpful.
     
    While i respect TH and his accomplishments and knowledgebase, his promotion of whatever he's promoting is dependent on what he's selling or who's paying him. While none of us would argue that a miss due to a canted rifle could be mistakenly interpreted as a bad wind call, in my experience, my brain is as good a level as the one mounted on my rifle. Frank had a post here on the Hide about that and also about how cant doesn't affect your impact as much as some people would have you believe. Particularly when shooting matches with tight time limits off of barricades or what have you, I've looked at my scope, thought, "yep, there's a little cant" and broke the shot because I knew that it wouldn't make a difference between a hit and a miss.
     
    But, he also recommends a $9,000 rangefinder, sooo..... o_O
    While i respect TH and his accomplishments and knowledgebase, his promotion of whatever he's promoting is dependent on what he's selling or who's paying him.

    For $9,000 I could pay someone to run out with a measuring tape and give me the exact distance to target.... for years! ;)
     
    Who? Never heard of her
    Actually, I had never heard of him, either. But, I don't really run in those circles. :) But, apparently, he's "somebody." :)

    I posted this mostly for fun. I am well-aware of the opinions on bubble-levels here on this group. That's why I prefaced the thread title with "HERESY!" :)
     
    Todd sells a very expensive bubble level, is anyone really surprised that he says it’s a necessity?

    Well... there ya go. When I googled the laser rangefinder he recommended... my jaw dropped! NINE GRAND! LOL! This guy is living in la-la land!

    I'm shooting a low-end Ruger Precision Rifle with a Vortex Viper HST scope with factory ammo. I'm shooting sub-MOA nearly always... 1/2-MOA a lot of the time, and 1/3-MOA when I hold my mouth right. ;) But, yeah... I'm gonna buy a $9k rangefinder! LOL!

    I'll admit... I have an MKM bubble level on my scope. ?
     
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    Perhaps next we will get to hear marksmanship advice from our local scout leaders.
     
    While i respect TH and his accomplishments and knowledgebase, his promotion of whatever he's promoting is dependent on what he's selling or who's paying him. While none of us would argue that a miss due to a canted rifle could be mistakenly interpreted as a bad wind call, in my experience, my brain is as good a level as the one mounted on my rifle. Frank had a post here on the Hide about that and also about how cant doesn't affect your impact as much as some people would have you believe. Particularly when shooting matches with tight time limits off of barricades or what have you, I've looked at my scope, thought, "yep, there's a little cant" and broke the shot because I knew that it wouldn't make a difference between a hit and a miss.
    When I first start Lr I found in the places I shoot i absolutely had a tendency to cant the rifle
    What looked right was a good bit off.
    On the uneven ground My mind wanted the reticle to match the terrain.
    I also tend to shoot at distances that it does matter on targets that aren’t PRC sized.
    Now I don’t run a level on my 260 because past use taught me to correct my past tendencies.
    I absolute run one on my 7 saum still because cant can definitely affect shots at the ranges I shoot it at normally and I want it perfect.

    Do I think TH wants to sell a buttload of levels?
    Yes.
    Does everyone need one?
    No.
    Can they possibly help someone?
    Yes.
     
    I use levels for sighting in my rifle and during load development. I like to attempt to remove as many variables as possible. It might not be needed, but I’m ocd and it makes me feel better to have one.
     
    I won't go as far as saying it's "necessary", but having a level gives me happy feelings. I like happy feelings. I have them on my rifles, but I can't honestly remember how often or if I even check them during a match...
    In the prone, when I'm not on the clock, I use it.
     
    Are levels required? No.
    Are they helpful? Yes.
    Do some shooting situations such as high angle, uneven terrain and longer range shots benefit from knowing that your rifle is level? Yes.
     
    My first post should have also said that I have levels on most of my scopes and that I do use them when I have time as a double check to my brain. However for him to say it's the one piece of equipment above all others that the LR shooter should have???? I don't think so... I can think of many other pieces of equipment that are more important.
     
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    My first post should have also said that I have levels on most of my scopes and that I do use them when I have time as a double check to my brain. However for him to say it's the one piece of equipment above all others that the LR shooter should have???? I don't think so... I can think of many other pieces of equipment that are more important.
    I agree with that.
     
    The thing that really kills me about levels on scope tubes is that one turn of the screw can ruin all of your hard "Leveling" work.
     
    I took Todd and Pete's Class in TX a couple of years ago. While the importance of a level was stressed and he sold accuracy first at the pro shop, he never recommended a $9k rangefinder. In fact did the opposite. While he had the $9000 ones there, he also stressed how the leica 1200b could do every bit as good for the ranges we were shooting ~1k I used a 1200b the whole weekend and loves it so much that I purchased one when i got home. I did buy my kestrel there merely because they helped us set it up for the first time and true it to our loads at distance.

    It was a fun trip and they had tons of good info. Id REALLY like to go to take one of Jacob's Classes at Rifles Only..

    I should say that Todd was not there. We had Pete for the instructor. Fist time I had seen a range out to a mile.... Heck first time id been to Texas period. It was wierd not seeing trees.
     
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    Shooting off crooked logging roads.... at targets that are themselves crooked... in the mountains with no horizon to look at...

    I'll say sometimes they come in handy.

    E2C2199E-2635-4578-A77D-D00AB490EB36.gif
     
    I remember his math, I’ll admit I’m not certain it’s correct, nor do I check my level on every stage or shot. But specifically in canyons and mountains, with uneven targets and whatnot and a non timed - definitely giving the level a quick glance. During PRS, I’m going to trust my eye to determine if there’s cant or not.

    It’s a cheap fix to remove a variable, I agree with that.
     
    I listened to a podcast with him a while back. On it, he said his son had just shot a deer at 2000 meters. Who here believes that happened?

    If it did happen it wasn’t an ethical shot.

    True or not it says something about his character.

    I’m sure he’s a nice guy, and carries a wealth of knowledge. But, I am not interested in taking a class from him or his son.
     
    I thought @lowlight perspective wasn't that levels were bad but that it masked the problem of not locking down a bipod to maintain consistency.
     
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    He has always struck me as a salesman/business man first before a marksman so based on that I never bothered with him. There are to many other dedicated marksman that I can always lean on before I would ever go to him
     
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    He has always struck me as a salesman/business man first before a marksman so based on that I never bothered with him. There are to many other dedicated marksman that I can always lean on before I would ever go to him

    Perhaps a snake oil salesman....
    First time I met the cowboy action shooter, he was trying to sell steel targets out of the bed of his pickup truck, in the parking lot, at a sniper match at Tac-Pro.
    Everybody was his new best friend until you didnt sign up to buy a target. Then he didnt know you, or want to know you.
    Then it looked like the pied piper leading some children, and those chirren looked angrily at people concentrating on shooting well, when the chirren were asked to hold it down back there as their cheerleaders sang his praises....
    Was an interesting two days around him. Most....

    The view never improved, for whatever reason.... evidence mounted each year to reinforce that first meetings impressions.

    Then there were attacks on some trainers and events that didnt advance his agenda, people walked away from the drama, shaking their heads.

    He went from an unknown cowboy action shooter to an expert tactical trainer, bam.
    Slowly fading with time.
     
    Muzzle brakes are not essential, good technique is. But here we are.

    As an aid, or if it's a mental game, then go for it if you think it helps you.
     
    Todd sells a very expensive bubble level, is anyone really surprised that he says it’s a necessity?

    My wife considers herself to be more of a handgun person than a rifle shooter. But, a few weeks ago, a neighbor down the highway came over to shoot some steel at our place, and brought his new rifle with him. He offered a few rounds through it to my wife, and after she shot it, he asked her if the scope-mounted bubble level was easy to see. She replied to him that she didn't utilize it, because when she first looked at it, it was "off a bit compared to those tall pines on the hill." And, maybe that's why he was having a hard time holding his shots on one of the far plates. I picked the gun up and looked at it, and she was right.
     
    I have the Magpul videos, I got them before I have a long range to shoot on. I watched them but just didn't "learn" anything from them, I walked away thinking damn that long range is just too complicated. I watched T Rexs Sniper 101 and walked away thinking OK I get that no problem. I've listen to TH on pod casts and at the end he talked for an hour and didn't "say" anything. He reminds me of the Governor in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. But with a well groomed "operator" beard.
     
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    I look at levels like this, if you are new and feel you may want or need one, by all means get one that is reliable and run your own tests with it. Shoot with and w/o it, you decide if it is a necessity, no one else.
    A good many shooters who started out "needing" one have gravitated away from them. Maybe like training wheels on your first bike.
    I still use one on what I call my ELR boomer, because I set myself up for each shot, not the same as banging a hanging plate at 800 yards.
    One thing I learned early on, if you are missing because of cant, and finally peek at your level and see it is off, now is not the time to reset, unless you know your original wind call is going to be good, because you have just changed everything..
     
    I've never really looked at the numbers to see how much difference a little cant makes so it may not be a big deal- but people that say they can always tell level are fooling themselves. I can almost always tell when my scope is level- but every now and then you will run into a situation where the terrain just combines to mess you up-- like going into one of those crooked built houses that jacks up your equilibrium. One time while hunting we were glassing at a little field on a hill with a ditch running down into a draw.... When we got over to it we realized that the water was actually running the other direction and "climbing" the hill. Watching it would really mess with your mind- (no... water can not climb a hill like that)

    I don't consider a level a necessity... but if you shoot enough places you'll find one that will get you off a little. How much that really changes the shot I don't know, but for $40 I throw them on and glance at them occasionally.
     
    Lots of folks selling things. Some sell levels, some sell scopes, some sell rifles, rings/bases, barrels, triggers stocks/chassis’s, bags, and access. It is all for sale.

    if you buy into the theory that because someone is selling you something you don’t have it must be the result of a spurious bent, then you should immediately stop buying things like kestrels, gamechangers, accuracy first levels, ckyepods,atlas bipods, triggertech triggers bartlein and Kreiger barrels, accuracy international rifles, and any other thing a person might wish to buy from a long list of some very cool shit that has some person selling it. The reason is because you are relying on a spokesperson in one form or another that is compensated for their opinion. in fact, all those earning a living in the firearms game have an opinion on what to sell to make money. It does not matter if they make equipment, modify equipment, develop new equipment or provide modes of publicity for said equipment.
     
    :rolleyes:
    A significant portion of the members here are here primarily for the field reviews of gear (as opposed to the bullshit unboxing crap on most of the Internet). We actually compete with the gear. To whom are you directing the above post?
     
    :rolleyes:
    A significant portion of the members here are here primarily for the field reviews of gear (as opposed to the bullshit unboxing crap on most of the Internet). We actually compete with the gear. To whom are you directing the above post?
    Even though I’m just a shmuck in the woods who doesn’t compete there’s a couple of PRC types here that I absolutely listen to and have based purchases on and was 100% satisfied.
     
    I compare it to getting talked into that sun roof at the dealer. Some will say it’s a waste of money and others won’t. In a way it is but it isn’t. The snake oil is pretty sweet sometimes. Just gotta try it to find out. You know better the second time if it was all for nothing.

    I like a level for the same reasons @Steel head has said. I lack the high speed credentials but if I didn’t I bet I’d still have a level attached where appropriate.
     
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    Use it or don’t. It’s a great training aid but if you’re relying on it for every single shot, there are bigger problems being left unaddressed. If it just sits there and is only needed once a month for a certain shot, then cool, don’t fuck it up. If you have it on there and never check it yet everyone behind you can see your shit is way off, then what’s the point? Sell it and pocket the $70 for ammo or beers to drown the fact you were missing all day (and not because of your cant).

    Then you have the people who strap everything to their weapons that is available...and not needed. Who cares. Most dudes with NVG bridges don’t even have NODs...and even then, there’s a massive stack of dudes who have NVGs but don’t have the means/ability to use them anywhere besides through their bedroom window at night for five minutes before putting it back into the safe. Cool. You do you.

    Buy what you want and leave feedback here for others. ...except for knock off shit. No one wants to hear about your problems with an Atlas counterfeit.
     
    A lot of good advice here on The Hide—-a LOT. Probably plenty of garbage too. But for some reason After reading a few thousand posts In the last 4 months, it’s pretty easy to tell who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t.
     
    I've never really looked at the numbers to see how much difference a little cant makes so it may not be a big deal- but people that say they can always tell level are fooling themselves. I can almost always tell when my scope is level- but every now and then you will run into a situation where the terrain just combines to mess you up-- like going into one of those crooked built houses that jacks up your equilibrium. One time while hunting we were glassing at a little field on a hill with a ditch running down into a draw.... When we got over to it we realized that the water was actually running the other direction and "climbing" the hill. Watching it would really mess with your mind- (no... water can not climb a hill like that)

    I don't consider a level a necessity... but if you shoot enough places you'll find one that will get you off a little. How much that really changes the shot I don't know, but for $40 I throw them on and glance at them occasionally.

    So, you don’t know how much it matters and you don’t know if the $40 level is accurate enough to correct the said amount you don’t know if/how much it matters..........

    But you use it anyway?
     
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    :rolleyes:
    We actually compete with the gear.
    Most of us actually "drive it like we stole it". Why have shit gear which breaks fast and fails you when you need it most. Be adept at shooting without gear. Bubble levels are no different. It's a tool. Have more than one tool in your box, and know how to use all of them well.👍

    Your point however, I agree with completely. Too many unboxing "it looks nice, so it gets a 5/5" reviews. Need more drivers, not keyboard typers.
     
    All the bubble is doing is pointing out an error, it's not fixing anything in the way most people use them.

    In order to FIX the problem, you need to understand the problem. Canting is not something that is automatic, it's not something we all do, it's not something that can't be dialed out with rifle set up. It's mostly new shooters who have an issue because the rifle is improperly set up. Correctly set up a bubble is not needed because the shooter will feel it.

    Tell me once how they address the issue when they say you NEED ONE on your rifle. They never explain it because they can't.

    In someone's mind, they buy a level, mount it on the rifle, without any regard to their position or set up. They just mount it level and forget about it. Then after you go through your shooter's checklist, before shooting they want you to take your eyes off the target and "check to see if it's level". The only instruction supplied is to look at it.

    When the answer is NO, what is the solution, rolling the rifle over back to straight, then returning to the target in order to fire. Now before you all say you are checking shit with your off eye, blah, blah blah, no you are not. Your brain is still focused on it and your mind is not paying attention to anything else because the brain is worried this will ruin your shot. You are nowhere near as good a multitasker as you believe.

    On the clock, nobody watches their level I have pictures to prove it, this image, the shooter won the competition, but most of the shots I witnessed were off level, because, you know, the clock.

    D6A5qL1P.jpeg

    So you check the level, it's off, you push the rifle straight and shoot. great, 1st round was square. Now you NEED to run the bolt and what did you just do, pull the rifle by the bolt, and cant it again. But now you are in a string of fire, on a clock or whatever, and you stopped checking the level. So 1/2 your shots are off.


    New mag, you go through your process, and boom, the level says you are off again. It's not fixing the problem, it's just pointing it out.

    I can fix it, I can show you how to adjust the front of the rifle, and the back of the rifle, then to recognize if you tend to pull over the rifle. How much is that worth compared to a $150 level that has 4x less accuracy than the 4 levels in our head?

    A bubble is there to help recognize problems in your rifle set up so you can correct them. It's meant to fine-tune your position to find that perfect point of comfort.

    In the old days before levels, they actually focused on setting up the rifle correctly vs placing arrows on the rifle to point to bad shit.
     
    Prime example of how you revert to shit under clock. For the past couple weeks I’ve been working on placing my support hand out on the forearm and not on top of the optic. At the moment I’ve only been working on standing with a bag on a table on tripod. Simulates a standing barricade pretty well.

    Yesterday, as soon as the timer started where did my hand hand go? Yep, right back to the optic. And most of the time I was consciously aware and still did it as it was still “comfortable.” So, I’m going to need hundreds more repetitions in several positions in practice to get comfortable using other methods under the clock.

    Point being, if you’re not using that bubble level to fix issues as pointed out above as well as using hundreds of times in practice, it’s just an air bubble hanging out on your rifle.
     
    One reason I have found levels useful for us shooting with my kids.

    9 and 12.

    They’ve shot a few times before but they love shooting my vudoo at kyl racks the last 4-5 months.

    Being the “ instructor”...I check the level on the spuhr.

    They can almost tell if they’re off, and if they are off it’s communication/explanation that’s lacking.

    Their so focused on trigger, Ret, target and wind (sometimes) that it’s just too much for them to compute all at once.