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Range Report Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

Sniper1*

Sniper1*

Lieutenant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2006
549
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Rochester, IN
#1
I recently attended a training that took us to 1000 yards.

I was shooting next to a guys that had an AI AE 20" tube. He was shooting the Hunting Shack 168 A-max bullet @ approx. 2630fps.

I was shooting the Hornady 168 HPBT TAP @ 2684fps.

What we found was that his round remained stabilized and mine did not. Mine began to keyhole some where between 700 and 1000.

I was able to stay on target at 700 (we didn't shoot 800 or 900) but could not stay on at 1000. The 20" AI maintained a groups at 1000. FWIW he was 40 or 41 MOA up and 5 1/2 MOA wind.

Just a little experience I wanted to pass along!
 
#3
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

Yep! I knew that going in but found it at least interesting that even at a lower MV the A-max got it done.

I normally carry the A-max but, due to availability, I had to use HPBT.
 
#7
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

A little help here to make the report more useful...

Altitude?

The rest of the atmospherics are of lesser importance, but that would be nice, too.

And are those velocities from past testing, or from readings taken there at some point before or during the training?

TX!
 
#8
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

Altitude around 700 ft asl! Give or take a little. Chronograph was set up before going back to 1000 that day. Temp 82* F. Station Pressure 29.29 IIRC.
 
#9
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

The real Hornady BC is lower than either of the two listed above (lower than .465). Get Bryan Litz's book and you'll get some actual BCs confirmed by testing. However, the BTHP is even lower. The transonic area is typically not kind to bullets with a boat tail angle as steep as either of those projectiles, but the Hornady maintains the speed a bit better than the BTHP.

Josh
 
#12
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real Hornady BC is lower than either of the two listed above (lower than .465). Get Bryan Litz's book and you'll get some actual BCs confirmed by testing. However, the BTHP is even lower. The transonic area is typically not kind to bullets with a boat tail angle as steep as either of those projectiles, but the Hornady maintains the speed a bit better than the BTHP.

Josh</div></div>

You are aware that Litz's BCs are G7 right? G7 is much lower than G1. Just wanted to give a heads up because I was confused a while back by the conversion from G1 to G7 at first.
 
#14
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real Hornady BC is lower than either of the two listed above (lower than .465). Get Bryan Litz's book and you'll get some actual BCs confirmed by testing. However, the BTHP is even lower. The transonic area is typically not kind to bullets with a boat tail angle as steep as either of those projectiles, but the Hornady maintains the speed a bit better than the BTHP.

Josh</div></div>

You are aware that Litz's BCs are G7 right? G7 is much lower than G1. Just wanted to give a heads up because I was confused a while back by the conversion from G1 to G7 at first. </div></div>

There are G1s and G7s in the book. I used the G1s for reference because that is what the manufacturers outside of Berger list. I do know the difference.

For those that don't know...The reason G7 is lower is due to the form factors being in the neighborhood of half for the G7 compared to G1.

My original response is still valid and correct based on Bryan's book. Damn Mike, I can't believe you would call me out like that.

Josh
 
#15
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real Hornady BC is lower than either of the two listed above (lower than .465). Get Bryan Litz's book and you'll get some actual BCs confirmed by testing. However, the BTHP is even lower. The transonic area is typically not kind to bullets with a boat tail angle as steep as either of those projectiles, but the Hornady maintains the speed a bit better than the BTHP.

Josh</div></div>

You are aware that Litz's BCs are G7 right? G7 is much lower than G1. Just wanted to give a heads up because I was confused a while back by the conversion from G1 to G7 at first. </div></div>

There are G1s and G7s in the book. I used the G1s for reference because that is what the manufacturers outside of Berger list. I do know the difference.

For those that don't know...The reason G7 is lower is due to the form factors being in the neighborhood of half for the G7 compared to G1.

My original response is still valid and correct based on Bryan's book. Damn Mike, I can't believe you would call me out like that.

Josh</div></div>

Didn't mean to call you out, I just thought you might have been comparing the G1 to the G7. Like I said, this stuff is a bit confusing at a glance and is easily mixed up. Good to know that you are on top of your game.
 
#16
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

So that Amax went subsonic somewhere around 970 yards. Has anyone actually had an Amax, any amax of any caliber, keyhole after going subsonic? I have no first hand knowledge, but I have read many accounts, including Montana Marine's of amaxes hitting point first after going subsonic. Is the pointed bullet inherently more stable than a match hollowpoint?

Sioux
 
#18
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So that Amax went subsonic somewhere around 970 yards. Has anyone actually had an Amax, any amax of any caliber, keyhole after going subsonic? I have no first hand knowledge, but I have read many accounts, including Montana Marine's of amaxes hitting point first after going subsonic. Is the pointed bullet inherently more stable than a match hollowpoint?

Sioux </div></div>

It also typically depends on how well rotated the bullet is in flight. A .308 with a 1-10" will stabilize 208 A-max's and 210 Bergers. The same 7mm-08 needs a 1-8" to stabilize 200's. This will more than likely affect accuracy at short range. But, it will help with accuracy at long range. Especially post trans-sonic disruption when the gyroscopic forces help re-stabilize the bullet. Every bullet that goes transonic gets disrupted. Depending on speed, form factor and rotation is how well they can re-stabilize.
 
#19
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

My experience with 168AMAX's is they will not reliably get out to 1000yds. 2720FPS from a 1-12 barrel. Shoots fine out to ~950yds then gets iffy (depending on conditions). I switched to 155's and drive them 150fps faster....
 
#20
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

12 twist 24" barrel (.308) shooting 168 AMAX at 2810 fps at 5500' goes to nearly 1200 yds before going subsonic.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Correction:</span>
12 twist 24" barrel (.308) shooting 168 AMAX with XBR8208 powder at <span style="font-weight: bold">2710</span> fps at 5500' goes to <span style="font-weight: bold">~1300</span> yds before going subsonic.
Barrel is an old hammer-forged Winchester barrel from the 70's that was stuck on a Rem700 action and it just keeps shooting lights out.
 
#21
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently attended a training that took us to 1000 yards.

I was shooting next to a guys that had an AI AE 20" tube. He was shooting the Hunting Shack 168 A-max bullet @ approx. 2630fps.

I was shooting the Hornady 168 HPBT TAP @ 2684fps.

What we found was that his round remained stabilized and mine did not. Mine began to keyhole some where between 700 and 1000.

I was able to stay on target at 700 (we didn't shoot 800 or 900) but could not stay on at 1000. The 20" AI maintained a groups at 1000. FWIW he was 40 or 41 MOA up and 5 1/2 MOA wind.

Just a little experience I wanted to pass along!</div></div>

Do you happen to know both of your guys twist rates? Sounds like his had a faster rate than yours, only way to really know is run both types of ammo through your rifle and see how they do.
 
#22
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRIM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">12 twist 24" barrel (.308) shooting 168 AMAX at 2810 fps at 5500' goes to nearly 1200 yds before going subsonic. </div></div>

It sounds like the ops velocity (2630), and twist rate may have combined.
The two are linearly proportional, so your stable combo has more spin than his, even though your twist rates may be the same.
 
#23
Re: Hornady 168 A-max vs 168 HPBT @ 1000

Dudes,

Buy Bryan Litz's book and then you can read all about gyroscopic and dynamic stabilities. It is a true eye opener as to why some bullets destabilize when others don't given the same conditions. There is a ton of other really good stuff outside of real world BCs in that piece of literature.

Josh
 
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