How is buying a Bravo chassis going to save weight?
- Thread starter unoigo
- Start date
I have several of both.
If you can find a 20 year old Remy 700, I’d go that route.
Brand new off the shelf, Howa 1500 all day long.
The aftermarket support for the Howa is drastically less, but other than a stock/chassis, it doesn’t really need anything. Trigger is probably the best factory trigger I’ve ever used.
If you can find a 20 year old Remy 700, I’d go that route.
Brand new off the shelf, Howa 1500 all day long.
The aftermarket support for the Howa is drastically less, but other than a stock/chassis, it doesn’t really need anything. Trigger is probably the best factory trigger I’ve ever used.
Ahh ok, so not too much weight going to come off it then sounds like. I may look at that chassis though. Mine has the flag which I love and it looks cool, but it's not very camouflaged lol
The older Howas were indeed tough to get the factory bbl off of. I used to have to ruin brand-new OEM bbls by taking a cut with a parting tool right up against the receiver face to relieve the pressure on the threads - had a few that I was able to turn the bbl loose by hand after taking that cut. But about the time the 1500s started coming off the line with the HACT triggers, the barrels got a lot easier to break loose & remove. Never had problems with the Mini actions, as they were always equipped with the HACT triggers; I've re-barreled four of them for my own use, and it was pretty easy to break the factory bbl loose on them.
I have a 1500 that's at least 10 years old. Its old enough to be a 308 with a 1 in 12 barrel.
Last fall I sent it to Short Action Customs to have the barrel cut shorter and threaded. They had to remove the barrel because the final length I wanted (17") was too short to stick past the chuck if they left the receiver on.
They got it off, but told me it was a royal bitch and had their doubts for a while.
Yeah, the KRG bravo is pretty budget friendly. Oryx makes a chassis for it as well.
Used to be the case, not so much anymore in my experience. As of the last 5 years or so, Remington has been harder, and if I'm truing an action and installing a better barrel, I just take a parting tool to the Remingtons.
In its day, when Remington was owned by Dupont and the company was interested in making rifle and shotguns, the Remington 700 was hard to beat at all but the most expensive price points. True it was a push feed action, but how many rifles including the Weatherby Vanguard / Howa 1500 are not push feed.
Brenda and I have owned multiple Remington bolt action rifles in our lifetimes. We still have a modest collection of XP-100’s and one last 700 rifle that was made in 1976.. We have had several model 700 rifles, most purchased from a good friend, who owned (along with his brother) and managed a gunshop and was the gunsmith. The most beautiful firearm we own is Brenda’s Model 541-S that I purchased for her wedding present in 1973.
However, in recent years, Remington has really fallen away side. The last model 700 I owned had an action that made 15 grit sandpaper feel smooth. Group size was great until a fellow fired the second shot. Oh, better feed the second shot by hand because it wasn’t coming out of the magazine.
Even our good Remington’s have been known to break extractors.
So, we get to the Howa/Vanguard. Gun shoots well, feeds from the magazine, groups pretty darned good, and for a push feed, the extractor is hard to beat. (And break). The firearm has a decent finish, a composite stock that is reasonably stiff, its just hard to find anything really wrong with a rifle that can be purchased for $500.00.
My point, get the Howa. There may be more “stuff” available for the Remington action but I suspect most of the parts are going on custom actions that are Remington clones.
Brenda and I have owned multiple Remington bolt action rifles in our lifetimes. We still have a modest collection of XP-100’s and one last 700 rifle that was made in 1976.. We have had several model 700 rifles, most purchased from a good friend, who owned (along with his brother) and managed a gunshop and was the gunsmith. The most beautiful firearm we own is Brenda’s Model 541-S that I purchased for her wedding present in 1973.
However, in recent years, Remington has really fallen away side. The last model 700 I owned had an action that made 15 grit sandpaper feel smooth. Group size was great until a fellow fired the second shot. Oh, better feed the second shot by hand because it wasn’t coming out of the magazine.
Even our good Remington’s have been known to break extractors.
So, we get to the Howa/Vanguard. Gun shoots well, feeds from the magazine, groups pretty darned good, and for a push feed, the extractor is hard to beat. (And break). The firearm has a decent finish, a composite stock that is reasonably stiff, its just hard to find anything really wrong with a rifle that can be purchased for $500.00.
My point, get the Howa. There may be more “stuff” available for the Remington action but I suspect most of the parts are going on custom actions that are Remington clones.
I'm always a bit surprised to hear someone claim that the older M700s were better actions than the RR prefix ones. I've worked on a few of the older M700s from back in the early '60s - some of them were clip slotted for stripper clips, drilled & tapped on the left side of the receiver for Redfield iron sight base, and had the flat spade-shaped safety knob, as well as a pretty spindly lower end of the bolt handle where it transitions into the oval knob. The older ones I've trued & re-barreled almost always require a deeper cut to true the receiver face & lug abutments, and single-pointing the threads also requires more metal to be removed than on any of the RR actions I've used. As I understand it, when Remington was bought out just before the RR actions were produced, the new owners bought new CNC machines, and heat treated the receiver blank BEFORE machining began, which resulted in straighter actions that required less work to true. I've built quite a few rifles on these newer RR actions, and really have no complaints about them. But most were purchased as bare receivers, and fitted with PTG custom bolts that were cut for Mini-16 extractors. I've also heard all sorts of complaints about the PTG bolts, but have yet to experience an issue with any of the one-piece PTGs I've bought & used. I'm not a high-volume shop - without going back through my bound book, I'd guess I've only used 20 or so of the RR actions, so maybe I've just been lucky. But over the past 10yrs, I've built myself several new rifles on the RR 700 actions, and have been uniformly pleased with them.
Now when it comes to the X-Mark Pro triggers, I can't think of anything very positive to say about them - they're just another very good reason to buy a bare receiver. And some of the factory barrels I've looked at with my Hawkeye borescope ...how the heck they made it through whatever passes as QC at Remington is beyond me, so I fully agree with some of the negative comments on barrel quality in this thread. It's a little hard to understand how they managed to make what I consider to be pretty decent receivers given the poor QC evident in their barrels - but it does give more credibility to the stories I heard about newer & better machinery used to produce the actions.
Whatever - even at a dealer cost of $181 for a single bare action, after I've bought & paid for a PTG bolt, extractor, & striker assembly, and put the time in on the lathe to true the action & fit the bolt, it's pretty obvious that even someone that is able to do their own action & bbl work would be quite a bit ahead to buy something like a Zermatt Origin custom action instead...
As has been mentioned before, the fact that there aren't nearly as many aftermarket parts available for Howa actions is partially because they don't require a whole lot of such parts...
Now when it comes to the X-Mark Pro triggers, I can't think of anything very positive to say about them - they're just another very good reason to buy a bare receiver. And some of the factory barrels I've looked at with my Hawkeye borescope ...how the heck they made it through whatever passes as QC at Remington is beyond me, so I fully agree with some of the negative comments on barrel quality in this thread. It's a little hard to understand how they managed to make what I consider to be pretty decent receivers given the poor QC evident in their barrels - but it does give more credibility to the stories I heard about newer & better machinery used to produce the actions.
Whatever - even at a dealer cost of $181 for a single bare action, after I've bought & paid for a PTG bolt, extractor, & striker assembly, and put the time in on the lathe to true the action & fit the bolt, it's pretty obvious that even someone that is able to do their own action & bbl work would be quite a bit ahead to buy something like a Zermatt Origin custom action instead...
As has been mentioned before, the fact that there aren't nearly as many aftermarket parts available for Howa actions is partially because they don't require a whole lot of such parts...
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Nothing wrong with Howa actions especially to build a custom off. Because people see they are cheaper they think they are shit.....wrong!! The Japanese have been building these rifles along time and have the process refined hence quality and good price. Nothing crappy comes out of Japan. Chinas a different story. Funny how humans like throwing away money....if it’s more expensive it must be better.
Can confirm new model Howas:
HACT trigger is excellent. I won't need to upgrade. 3 x 1500 and 2 x 1500 mini.
2 barrels came of easier than any other factory rifle. 2 x 1500 and 1 x 1500 mini.
One 1500 in 6.5 shot better than moa with factory Hornady Precision Hunter.
One 1500 in .243 would not shoot any ammo under 2 inches, but it was a friends and I didn't get to play with it to find possible causes.
Love the KRG bravo for the money.
HACT trigger is excellent. I won't need to upgrade. 3 x 1500 and 2 x 1500 mini.
2 barrels came of easier than any other factory rifle. 2 x 1500 and 1 x 1500 mini.
One 1500 in 6.5 shot better than moa with factory Hornady Precision Hunter.
One 1500 in .243 would not shoot any ammo under 2 inches, but it was a friends and I didn't get to play with it to find possible causes.
Love the KRG bravo for the money.
Most guys these days want an action with a 1-piece bolt that can be taken apart bayonet-style without tools, an M-16-style extractor, and an integral recoil lug... like a custom action, or umm, a Howa 1500... lol.
At this point in time I don't really know why anyone would bother with a Remington 700 they didn't already own (unless it was just to use one while planning to replace it down the road). They've already built a better mousetrap (a bunch of them actually): if one really has to have a 700-pattern action, then get an Origin, or spend more and get any of the other myriad of clones available.
FWIW, I dig my Howa and probably won't replace it unless/until I pick up something else off a prize table or just get bored and decide to try something new... but even then, I'd still hold onto it, my lowly Howa has proven itself to be sub-MOA at 1000yrds and does everything it's supposed to.
IMHO, really the only thing that even some of the custom 700-clone actions have over the Howa 1500 actions is some have an easier bolt-lift on cocking than the Howa's (even though the Howa's isn't really a problem on a 20+lb rifle)... But, after doing some experimentation on an extra Howa 1500 bolt's cocking-ramp that I picked up off of eBay, that can be slicked up too: I was able to reshape the cocking-ramp to where it's bolt-lift/cocking didn't give up anything next to an Impact 737 and Curtis before I got too greedy and fucked it up lol...
At this point in time I don't really know why anyone would bother with a Remington 700 they didn't already own (unless it was just to use one while planning to replace it down the road). They've already built a better mousetrap (a bunch of them actually): if one really has to have a 700-pattern action, then get an Origin, or spend more and get any of the other myriad of clones available.
FWIW, I dig my Howa and probably won't replace it unless/until I pick up something else off a prize table or just get bored and decide to try something new... but even then, I'd still hold onto it, my lowly Howa has proven itself to be sub-MOA at 1000yrds and does everything it's supposed to.
IMHO, really the only thing that even some of the custom 700-clone actions have over the Howa 1500 actions is some have an easier bolt-lift on cocking than the Howa's (even though the Howa's isn't really a problem on a 20+lb rifle)... But, after doing some experimentation on an extra Howa 1500 bolt's cocking-ramp that I picked up off of eBay, that can be slicked up too: I was able to reshape the cocking-ramp to where it's bolt-lift/cocking didn't give up anything next to an Impact 737 and Curtis before I got too greedy and fucked it up lol...
ZERO factory 700s in service as sniper weapons = Wrong. Change that to many LTRs
This is why Howas are best slapped on KRG chassis. Zero milling of that tab is necessary to use AICS pattern magazines on Howa in KRG chassis.
I'm two for two in that department.
Howas are a far better action than remingtons…. Especially these days and especially to build on. They just don’t have as many aftermarket goodies as remingtons.
Everything and anything that you could possibly need, they make it.
100%. My Howa is somewhere on here. Manners T6A, custom barrel etc. Even their triggers are so good, once reworked there’s no need to change!
Most of the Howas I have seen in the last 15 years or so have been very accurate. 1 MOA is not exceptional, but fairly common with loads the rifle likes.
Now remember, the most accurate rifle on earth will shoot some loads better than others, so how accurate a rifle is can only be determined after some load work.
But 1.5 MOA is probably not going to be a challenge at all.
Now remember, the most accurate rifle on earth will shoot some loads better than others, so how accurate a rifle is can only be determined after some load work.
But 1.5 MOA is probably not going to be a challenge at all.
I don’t agree with that all the way. Remingtons quality has dropped off, would be a fair statement. The r700 design is great, that’s why others copy it. Howa’s are damn good but you can’t make a blanket statement like that. More snipers use Remington 700s than probably any other rifles in the world. They must have made a couple of good ones. Lol
This is true and false at the same time.
The 700 design is brilliant in terms of ease of manufacture. That's it. There's nothing else great about it. A round bottom is not ideal. A flat one is. The extractor is a thin sheetmetal clip, not a claw made from wrought or forged steel. The bolt handle falls off unless the brazing is done perfectly. The lug can get misaligned during barrel installation, something that cannot happen with a Howa, or Winchester, or Mauser.
Because the 700 was cheaper than the Model 70 it took off in sales. Once sales reach some tipping point, aftermarket companies take notice and latch on. Not because the 700 has some superior qualities inherent in its design, but because a shit ton of them were sold because they are cheaper than the competition. Now that the aftermarket is 700-centric, any new entry into the aftermarket has to start there and many stay there.
It's the same thing that happened with the Glock 17...........
Rem700 are fantastically engineered, for its original purpose. Trigger fitment and design, external recoil lug, raceways, bolt design, firing pin assembly, etc. Smart.
Over the years they have cheapened it up to the point of literally extinction. It was by no means the best, but the design and price point was brilliant, partly why it took off.
Also why many people clone it and perfected it. Brought the tolerances back and cleaned it up. Side bolt release, integrated pic rails, one piece recoil lug, etc.
Over the years they have cheapened it up to the point of literally extinction. It was by no means the best, but the design and price point was brilliant, partly why it took off.
Also why many people clone it and perfected it. Brought the tolerances back and cleaned it up. Side bolt release, integrated pic rails, one piece recoil lug, etc.
No one copies anything that's more expensive and difficult to make, even if it's demonstrably better.
That exemplifies my point. Rem700s have gotten to the point of being "lowest common denominator", by making them better in after market options, it's some what complimenting the design.
I will point out that I believe there are better designs for actions, not based on rem700, but still fulfill being cheap. Howa 1500 being one such option.
I've built far more custom rifles on M700 & clone actions than I have on Howas, but a good deal of the reason for that is that customers either brought their own M700 actions to me, or requested custom M700 clones. The guys who've had me use Howa actions have uniformly been pleased with the resulting rifles, and I've built several Howas for my own use, including five I still have on the Mini actions. I don't have any reservations about using a Howa, with the exceptions of the need to machine the mag well for use in a conventional stock (Manners or McMillan), and the fact that I've yet to see anyone come out with more sturdy metal mags to replace the somewhat flimsy plastic mags for the Mini actions. Neither am I pleased that Howa used the equally flimsy plastic bottom 'metal' on the Mini - all five of mine wear either DIP or Jefferson Outdoors aluminum DBM units. I'm also considering ordering in one of Jefferson's BDL-style hinged floorplate BMs for a Mini in 22 Grendel in a B&C M40-style stock that still has issues feeding smoothly with DIP DBM, even though I've milled the DBM inlet .030" deeper. That's not a knock on the B&C stock - the same rifle didn't work any better when I had it in a Boyds Prairie Hunter laminated stock with the DIP DBM.
To be honest, I haven't put a lot of work into making the 22 Grendel rifle work better - mostly because I've been bitten hard by the 22RF bug, and have put a lot of time & money into building several V-22 repeaters, a V22S single shot, a Zermatt Rim-X, and re-barreling several CZ457 & 455s. Plus there's a Gen 3 Vudoo Three-60 action in the safe, along with a TT Diamond trigger, Manners PRST1 stock, and Krieger sendero contour bbl blank - all just waiting on me to finish the re-build on my JET GH-1340W3's gearhead, which entails replacing the spindle bearings & all other bearings after removing all the shafts, cleaning all the remaining oil & crud out of the cast iron case, re-painting to better seal it, and then trying to remember how to put it all back together - might be this winter before I get this accomplished, the way the farm work has been going...lol
To be honest, I haven't put a lot of work into making the 22 Grendel rifle work better - mostly because I've been bitten hard by the 22RF bug, and have put a lot of time & money into building several V-22 repeaters, a V22S single shot, a Zermatt Rim-X, and re-barreling several CZ457 & 455s. Plus there's a Gen 3 Vudoo Three-60 action in the safe, along with a TT Diamond trigger, Manners PRST1 stock, and Krieger sendero contour bbl blank - all just waiting on me to finish the re-build on my JET GH-1340W3's gearhead, which entails replacing the spindle bearings & all other bearings after removing all the shafts, cleaning all the remaining oil & crud out of the cast iron case, re-painting to better seal it, and then trying to remember how to put it all back together - might be this winter before I get this accomplished, the way the farm work has been going...lol
Me and you have been down this road before. I admit that the howa design is better in many ways. I like the integral recoil, the trigger, and the bolt with Howa’s. There’s nothing wrong with Howa’s at all. However, just because I like those things more doesn’t make them better. They’re different, it’s comparing apples to oranges. With all their problems and short comings the r700 design is used to make some of the most accurate rifles in the world. I believe Remington 700s and Winchester 70s are both cheap ripoffs of the Mauser design and Howa’s look like they might be too.
One can use any action to build off of and they’ll all get the job done. The availability and price of parts combined with its proven history makes the r700 the obvious best choice for most. Nothing against howa, tikka, Winchester or Mauser just the reality of the current situation.
AFTER those problems and shortcomings are fixed. Problems and shortcoming that are mostly absent from Howa rifles.
Most of them don’t have problems and work great throughout their lifetime. It’s not uncommon to see 40,50, or 60year old Remingtons shooting 1/2 moa groups. Those old 700 actions are everywhere and make great shooting rifles. The short comings I was referring to were in management not in the rifles. IMO the recoil lug isn’t as sturdy as the Howa’s but it’s better than others, like Tikka. I prefer to use Remington actions when building a rifle unless I’m using a custom action. If you can’t do your own machine work it less expensive to buy a custom action.
308pirate is actually the person that opened my eyes to Howa’s, not an easy task either. I’m a 40+ year Remington owner and all around Remington whore. Pirate knows this and that’s why he’s busting my balls. Howa’s are built the way a gun should be made. The machine work is unbelievable, and I don’t know how they make a profit. I had overlooked their quality for years and missed out on awesome rifles just because they were foreign made and inexpensive.
There’s good reasons to buy either, they each have their pluses and minuses. It really depends on what the person is trying to do.
Here’s pics of a couple of examples I just grabbed off gunbroker of the sort of guns that come to mind when I think about Remington 700s. Both rifles are over 50 years old. Man if those aren’t beautiful rifles I don’t know what is. Remington was a giant and made some the nicest firearms ever made. Remington is the reason shooting was so inexpensive and now that they’re gone the others don’t have to compete against their low prices. The days of cheap ammo and cheap equipment are gone and will probably never return. Before these shortages are over we’re all gonna miss Remington.
Attachments
Go pick up a 60 year old Model 70, hell or even one ten years old........
I make make billet alloy bottom metals, but not new magazines. Helps with bedding and torquing it up properly.
AKA Winchester Model 70
Fair call. Your right. Jeez this thread took off. I have rifles built off both actions and love them both. The Japanese have been making Howas for a very long time and have their process squared away….hence the affordable price. Cheers
I love the pre 64 model 70s and the model 70s action is similar to the howa action. however I got turned against the model 70s way way back in the day with a post 64 model 70. The Damn screws in the stock that touch the barrel and mess with the harmonics cause me problems. The damn rifle was lucky to shoot 2 moa on a good day.
I’m getting to a point where I’m learning that there’s no such thing as the best. There’s what’s best for that person, on that budget, doing that type of shooting.
If all a person can afford is a Howa rifle then by all means buy howa. I wouldn’t buy model 70 to use on a build either, and for the same reason, because you’re limiting yourself. You see it all the time, “I have this great action and there’s hardly anything for it”. Why ? because people who buy model 70 rifles don’t typically use them to build from.
I like Howa’s they’re damn good rifles but no one action is the best for everyone all of the time. It’s all relative.
With the closing of Remington, and no more $750 Remington 700 police model rifles, I’d recommend others buy the $900 howa hs precision rifles unless it’s for a complete build. Really just add some glass and enjoy your sub moa rifle. The Howa barreled actions from Brownells are great, if they’re available, to drop in a chassis if they prefer a chassis.
Lots of ways to get a sub moa rifle and what’s best for some isn’t always best for everyone so I try to keep an open mind.
I posted something about Howa vs Rem vs M70 back in 2011
www.snipershide.com
Gunsmithing - Rebarreling Howa 1500
I've heard a few folks say that removing the stock barrel on a Howa is a serious pain. I've got an opportunity to pick-up a very clean 1500 for a good price. I'm most interested in using it as a foundation for a humble custom build. First item would be a new barrel chambered in 223 AI. I'm very...
www.snipershide.com I agree with you. It looks like mr. Winchester, mr. Remington and mr. Howa all borrowed from mr. MauserI posted something about Howa vs Rem vs M70 back in 2011
Gunsmithing - Rebarreling Howa 1500
I've heard a few folks say that removing the stock barrel on a Howa is a serious pain. I've got an opportunity to pick-up a very clean 1500 for a good price. I'm most interested in using it as a foundation for a humble custom build. First item would be a new barrel chambered in 223 AI. I'm very...
Love the camo pattern on the couch!
No kid r700 is NOT better and it was used by agencies only because Remington sold them CHEAP af to them lmao, and your question makes me laugh so bad lol
Since my last reply on this thread, I've sent the last bare M700 RR action I had off to LRI. I'd sat on this action too long after Remington went tits-up, and none of the usual places where I'd buy bolt stops & springs, trigger pins - all the little parts it takes to finish out a bare action - were available. Trigger pins were an easy fix - I just cut drill rod to the correct length & ground a slight bevel on one end. But the bolt stop was the hang-up - so after finding out that Chad at LRI had designed a custom side bolt stop, I decided to send the action up to him for the installation. And after looking over his dealer price list for other work, I decided to just have them do the whole action truing job - I'd watched his video on the 5-axis machining center does the action truing in one set-up, and gave in to curiosity, wanting to see for myself how the action turned out after going through his process. I also had a new PTG one-pc bolt that needed fitted to the action, so asked to have the action bore diamond honed for a fit that would work well with a CeraKote finish. Plus, for what they charged me, I decided to have them do a spiral flute job while they had the bolt. Also wanted them to drill the receiver face for the dual-pinned recoil lug. So I sent it off to them, along with a check for the work, and in just under two weeks, it came back, all work done as I'd spec'd, and looking great.
More than a year later, I'm always looking for an excuse to get this rifle out and take it down to the range. I used a Bartlein 20cal, 1-9tw #3 contour blank, chambered with my JGS 20 Tactical reamer, with a TBAC flash suppressor mount, and a TT Diamond trigger, with Hawkins DBM in a McMillan Game Scout stock, and an Athlon Midas Tac scope in TPS TSR rings. The action runs as smooth as most of my customs, and it shoots just fine. I'm very pleased with the decision to send that bare action up to LRI. Sure, for what I spent - even at my ffl dealer discout - I could've had an Origin action. But this action was just sitting here, gathering dust, as was the new PTG bolt, so it made sense to use it as a way to see for myself how good LRI's work is - and as I said, I'm more than happy with it.
More than a year later, I'm always looking for an excuse to get this rifle out and take it down to the range. I used a Bartlein 20cal, 1-9tw #3 contour blank, chambered with my JGS 20 Tactical reamer, with a TBAC flash suppressor mount, and a TT Diamond trigger, with Hawkins DBM in a McMillan Game Scout stock, and an Athlon Midas Tac scope in TPS TSR rings. The action runs as smooth as most of my customs, and it shoots just fine. I'm very pleased with the decision to send that bare action up to LRI. Sure, for what I spent - even at my ffl dealer discout - I could've had an Origin action. But this action was just sitting here, gathering dust, as was the new PTG bolt, so it made sense to use it as a way to see for myself how good LRI's work is - and as I said, I'm more than happy with it.
