I was totally wrong stop and frisk is wonderful tool for LEO

[nagantguy]

You are still not answering my question, evidently, with a religious fervor. So, you get rid of cops and use secondary or private arbitration. How will that work for you when the posses move into your neighborhood and do what they want to do, regardless of your "Rules of Robert" or even the conventions of the Queen of Attenborough?

Guess what, you are back to needing something that looks a lot like a cop who needs to earn a living because he is too busy protecting you to go and farm his own food or get his own meat.

And then, just to make sure everything is right, even by your arbitration, what does that require? A set of laws and a legal expert to decide, based on those laws.

Congratulations, you just invented police and courts. And even with your idyllic vision, there are going to be protectors or whatever you call them, that do bad things. It is the nature of the beast. All men fall short of the glory of God, even you.

The big hole in your argument is - no one does anything to protect anyone when a gang or click or posse take over a hood . Even when those hoods are entire cities . The only thing current popo do is some token arrests -BUT any Joe citizen who dares defend his own hood or protect his womenfolk is hammered .

The day it really started for me - the blinders really came off - when the neighbors farm was raided - for selling whole raw unpasteurized milk . SWAT - state boys - FDA - and not only destroyed the milk but smashed all the honey making stuff and the loom for angora AND took all their money they had in the house . No charges no arrests just flex and theft . And when I knew what to look for - yep I saw it everywhere.

Wasn’t the last time SCOTUS upheld “no duty to protect “ in 2018?
So no duty to protect - and they don’t so stop using that as justification for state thugs .

 

[Ronws]

The big hole in your argument is - no one does anything to protect anyone when a gang or click or posse take over a hood . Even when those hoods are entire cities . The only thing current popo do is some token arrests -BUT any Joe citizen who dares defend his own hood or protect his womenfolk is hammered .

The day it really started for me - the blinders really came off - when the neighbors farm was raided - for selling whole raw unpasteurized milk . SWAT - state boys - FDA - and not only destroyed the milk but smashed all the honey making stuff and the loom for angora AND took all their money they had in the house . No charges no arrests just flex and theft . And when I knew what to look for - yep I saw it everywhere.

Wasn’t the last time SCOTUS upheld “no duty to protect “ in 2018?
So no duty to protect - and they don’t so stop using that as justification for state thugs .

You fix the problem, don't re-invent the problem. No hole, you just don't want to discuss. You want to harangue and always be right. Good luck with that.

 

[The D]

You are still not answering my question, evidently, with a religious fervor. So, you get rid of cops and use secondary or private arbitration. How will that work for you when the posses move into your neighborhood and do what they want to do, regardless of your "Rules of Robert" or even the conventions of the Queen of Attenborough?

Guess what, you are back to needing something that looks a lot like a cop who needs to earn a living because he is too busy protecting you to go and farm his own food or get his own meat.

And then, just to make sure everything is right, even by your arbitration, what does that require? A set of laws and a legal expert to decide, based on those laws.

Congratulations, you just invented police and courts. And even with your idyllic vision, there are going to be protectors or whatever you call them, that do bad things. It is the nature of the beast. All men fall short of the glory of God, even you.

Nobody is saying some form of security dept isn’t important, or won’t exist in some capacity

What I’m saying is, this security force/dept can’t be funded by stolen tax money and protected from deliberate wrongdoing by a union. It must be a legit business that provides services that people will voluntarily purchase

 

[nagantguy]

New Mexico police responding to domestic violence call visit wrong address, fatally shoot resident inside

The New Mexico State Police said a resident of Farmington was fatally shot by police after officers visited the wrong address in response to a domestic violence call.

www.foxnews.com

Here is a great example I guess of the “who will protect our neighborhoods “ so not only unable to read addresses but then open fire on the owner of the “wrong house “ and kill him. But the article states twice no officers were hurt so that’s good.
Who the fuck did that guy think he was opening his own front door?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Nobody is saying some form of security dept isn’t important, or won’t exist in some capacity

What I’m saying is, this security force/dept can’t be funded by stolen tax money and protected from deliberate wrongdoing by a union. It must be a legit business that provides services that people will voluntarily purchase

The other option is instead of paying in money, everyone pitches in and pays in time and volunteers to help protect and keep the peace in their local area.
This works well in low density areas with long term residents, however in high density areas with short term residents, it isn't going to work nearly as well.

 

[nagantguy]

Or we could try a professional police force which requires at least an above average IQ, no immunity and no license to steal and held to account for shooting and killing the residents in the wrong home . And personally bonded /liable for violating the rights they’d sworn to protect . I know it sounds radical- insane almost competent intelligent and accountable.

 

[The D]

The other option is instead of paying in money, everyone pitches in and pays in time and volunteers to help protect and keep the peace in their local area.
This works well in low density areas with long term residents, however in high density areas with short term residents, it isn't going to work nearly as well.

Yes, this works too.

 

[nagantguy]

or we could be happy with an entire county sheriffs office being okay with warrantless searches of 900 kids and the courts taking 6 years to say no no bad bad. Pay them some of their own money .

 

[Skunk]

Nobody is saying some form of security dept isn’t important, or won’t exist in some capacity

What I’m saying is, this security force/dept can’t be funded by stolen tax money and protected from deliberate wrongdoing by a union. It must be a legit business that provides services that people will voluntarily purchase

Can you imagine what the price list will look like? You think it’s extortion now……

 

[W54/XM-388]

Can you imagine what the price list will look like? You think it’s extortion now……

You know once upon a time folks in America lived just fine without paying income taxes and without needing bloated oppressive departments full of "uniform hangers"

That's not to say times were better, actually times were probably worse back then, it all depended where you were and what your status was.

 

[Skunk]

I gotcha. No disagreement. I just think letting police charge what they think for service is a recipe for disaster.

 

[The D]

Can you imagine what the price list will look like? You think it’s extortion now……

That’s only how gov mandated price controls work. That’s not how voluntary interactions work

 

[Skunk]

That’s only how gov mandated price controls work. That’s not how voluntary interactions work

Right. It would definitely result in people being more self reliant. No more calling 9-1-1 because the drive-through is out of chicken nuggets, or because of other stupid shit.

I wonder if people could afford an emergency response for a home invasion or child abduction?

 

[The D]

Does anyone on this fucking site actually know what the free market is and have any understanding of how it works? Or do you clowns just like to say stuff like “I believe in the free market, but…”, just like you see some stuffed suit(even Tucker) on Fox say?

Competition in even a relatively free market always lowers prices and increases the quality of goods/services. Always. Without exception

If there were no state-run cartel of police forces, how many people do you think would start a private security service? What do you think they would have to do to keep customers? Do you think raising their prices and letting their employees beat up customers would increase or decrease their voluntary business?

 

[jb0311]

I gotcha. No disagreement. I just think letting police charge what they think for service is a recipe for disaster.

I agree with this. I have a hard time believing it wouldn't quickly turn into a Mob-style "protection".
i.e. "pay us to protect you or you will soon find out why you need protection..."

It's kind of funny how we end up at extremes on both sides here. As if the options are either A. Completely get rid of police and mil, or
B. just be happy you have police and mil and don't open your mouth when there are issues.

It's clear any system will be abused, as that is the nature of positions of power. The focus should be more on, IMO, how do we identify and punish abuse of power. It's also my opinion, or observations, that there is a problem with how we are able to punish police or politicians that abuse their power. I would prefer to focus on that rather than nuke the whole system without a solid plan on what should replace it.

But here i am just wanting everyone, police or civilian, to leave me alone and don't fuck with what's mine. I'd settle for that.

 

[jb0311]

The Pinkertons REALLY worked out for everyone, well, if you had money.

 

[Skunk]

Does anyone on this fucking site actually know what the free market is and have any understanding of how it works? Or do you clowns just like to say stuff like “I believe in the free market, but…”, just like you see some stuffed suit(even Tucker) on Fox say?

Competition in even a relatively free market always lowers prices and increases the quality of goods/services. Always. Without exception

If there were no state-run cartel of police forces, how many people do you think would start a private security service? What do you think they would have to do to keep customers? Do you think raising their prices and letting their employees beat up customers would increase or decrease their voluntary business?

Do you think cops (or whatever their title would be in your “free market” society) would do a better job than they do now for less money than they do it for now?

PD’s can barely find decent people now for what they get paid.

I admire your optimism.

 

[jb0311]

** "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"







**as long as you can afford to pay more for it than the next guy.

 

[The D]

Th

Do you think cops (or whatever their title would be in your “free market” society) would do a better job than they do now for less money than they do it for now?

PD’s can barely find decent people now for what they get paid.

I admire your optimism.

The fact that you think a free market of security services has to look exactly as it does now shows me you can’t even begin to imagine liberty.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Th

The fact that you think a free market of security services has to look exactly as it does now shows me you can’t even begin to imagine liberty.

Part of the issue is that current Law Enforcment is tasked with essentially oppressing the citizens on behalf of other bitching citizens who don't think people should be allowed freedom if that freedom isn't exactly to do only the things they like.
BOTH sides do it and actually the "good folks" are WAY more guilty than everyone else of turning this country into a repressive state.

Start by dropping all the B.S. laws prohibiting people from doing things that are not directly harming someone else (who did not ask to be harmed).
Refuse to allow your enforcement to be the boots and gun behind taxation and extortion and theft.

WAY less work to worry about.
WAY Less danger to them.
Way less cost to those paying.

 

[Greasly]

Does anyone on this fucking site actually know what the free market is and have any understanding of how it works? Or do you clowns just like to say stuff like “I believe in the free market, but…”, just like you see some stuffed suit(even Tucker) on Fox say?

Competition in even a relatively free market always lowers prices and increases the quality of goods/services. Always. Without exception

If there were no state-run cartel of police forces, how many people do you think would start a private security service? What do you think they would have to do to keep customers? Do you think raising their prices and letting their employees beat up customers would increase or decrease their voluntary business?

They would be organized in a manner to minimize liability. Multiple layers of corporate and or LLC obfuscation. Possibly even headquartered outside of the U.S. The organizers wouldn't be doing the dirty work. Or would they? Because they'd be lobbying from K street for qualified immunity.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Ya'll save the world Yet?

 

[jb0311]

Ya'll save the world Yet?

I’m still waiting on this LSD to kick in so I can truly envision and appreciate this freedom utopia that no one’s ever thought of before. Open up your consciousness, dude.

 

[Ronws]

Nobody is saying some form of security dept isn’t important, or won’t exist in some capacity

What I’m saying is, this security force/dept can’t be funded by stolen tax money and protected from deliberate wrongdoing by a union. It must be a legit business that provides services that people will voluntarily purchase.

So, private police. Nothing could go wrong with that, of course. And those who cannot afford police will die. Sounds like a Soros plan, but I could be wrong.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I’m still waiting on this LSD to kick in so I can truly envision and appreciate this freedom utopia that no one’s ever thought of before. Open up your consciousness, dude.

 

[The D]

So, private police. Nothing could go wrong with that, of course. And those who cannot afford police will die. Sounds like a Soros plan, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you’re wrong

 

[slowworm]

So, private police. Nothing could go wrong with that, of course. And those who cannot afford police will die. Sounds like a Soros plan, but I could be wrong.

This is already happening. The rich, the famous and the politicians have no issues hiring private security, and politicians, as well as having police protection dedicated to them, often get the taxpayers to foot the bill for additional security. And they all live in gated communities with private security.

The rest if us get the police. Who are allowed to discriminate against applicants who are too intelligent. I can't think of a job where you have to put a ceiling on intelligence.

When people make comments like yours and can't see the very thing you suggest is a Soros plan is already happening, I know the country is fucked.

 

[Skunk]

Th

The fact that you think a free market of security services has to look exactly as it does now shows me you can’t even begin to imagine liberty.

I’m not trying to piss you off by challenging your idea, just skeptical of the feasibility of it. I’m also not defending the current policing model by questioning yours.

I’m thinking of this not so hypothetical situation….

A 24yr old woman and her 1yr old son are grocery shopping at a Walmart SuperCenter outside Mobile, AL. Mom has half a cart full of shit and turns her back on the buggy with the little guy in it for 30secs to pick out some tomatoes.

With back turned, some other chick swipes the kid, covers him in a coat and slips into the crowd and out the door. Pandemonium ensues.

The kid was recovered the next day outside Shreveport, LA.

This whole shindig didn’t cost Mom a thing in the current setting. I’m just wondering how a 24yr old single mom would pay for an interstate child recovery under your system.

And I can understand policing wouldn’t look the same as it does now. It would probably look more like a rabble of rednecks in Chevy pickups, toting Rem 11-87’s and drinking Bud Lite while yelling, “let’s git’em, boys!”

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I’m not trying to piss you off by challenging your idea, just skeptical of the feasibility of it. I’m also not defending the current policing model by questioning yours.

I’m thinking of this not so hypothetical situation….

A 24yr old woman and her 1yr old son are grocery shopping at a Walmart SuperCenter outside Mobile, AL. Mom has half a cart full of shit and turns her back on the buggy with the little guy in it for 30secs to pick out some tomatoes.

With back turned, some other chick swipes the kid, covers him in a coat and slips into the crowd and out the door. Pandemonium ensues.

The kid was recovered the next day outside Shreveport, LA.

This whole shindig didn’t cost Mom a thing in the current setting. I’m just wondering how a 24yr old single mom would pay for an interstate child recovery under your system.

And I can understand policing wouldn’t look the same as it does now. It would probably look more like a rabble of rednecks in Chevy pickups, toting Rem 11-87’s and drinking Bud Lite while yelling, “let’s git’em, boys!”

Definitely drinking bud light…

 

[GreenGO Juan]

 

[Ronws]

Yes, you’re wrong

So, it's not a Soros plan. Okay.

 

[Ronws]

This is already happening. The rich, the famous and the politicians have no issues hiring private security, and politicians, as well as having police protection dedicated to them, often get the taxpayers to foot the bill for additional security. And they all live in gated communities with private security.

The rest if us get the police. Who are allowed to discriminate against applicants who are too intelligent. I can't think of a job where you have to put a ceiling on intelligence.

When people make comments like yours and can't see the very thing you suggest is a Soros plan is already happening, I know the country is fucked.

So, why is it that when you fail to reason, you go to the ad hominem?

The last bit is meant to be an insult to me. You didn't answer the question about poor people dying because you can't. All that you can do is imply that I am what is wrong with this country. That's not reasoning or an explanation. That is an insult designed to make my point wrong. Hence, an ad hominem.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Can you imagine what the price list will look like? You think it’s extortion now……

I gotcha. No disagreement. I just think letting police charge what they think for service is a recipe for disaster.

Do you think cops (or whatever their title would be in your “free market” society) would do a better job than they do now for less money than they do it for now?

PD’s can barely find decent people now for what they get paid.

I admire your optimism.

Let's see what the current situation is. How are they using the taxpayers money for policing now.
Straight from the horses mouth when the horses didn't know that they were being recorded.

NYPD officers brag about milking overtime, call detainees names in accidental recording

Jonathan Wohl was arrested for conducting a one-man protest against his union. When he was taken into custody, his phone kept recording.

gothamist.com

You are advocating that each individual has to pay for their own security. It can be done just the same way it is now. If the money taken from taxes to pay for the police. It would not cost the citizens any more than it does now.
Funny how Fed Ex and UPS can make money for a better service than the postal service.

 

[The D]

I’m not trying to piss you off by challenging your idea, just skeptical of the feasibility of it. I’m also not defending the current policing model by questioning yours.

I’m thinking of this not so hypothetical situation….

A 24yr old woman and her 1yr old son are grocery shopping at a Walmart SuperCenter outside Mobile, AL. Mom has half a cart full of shit and turns her back on the buggy with the little guy in it for 30secs to pick out some tomatoes.

With back turned, some other chick swipes the kid, covers him in a coat and slips into the crowd and out the door. Pandemonium ensues.

The kid was recovered the next day outside Shreveport, LA.

This whole shindig didn’t cost Mom a thing in the current setting. I’m just wondering how a 24yr old single mom would pay for an interstate child recovery under your system.

And I can understand policing wouldn’t look the same as it does now. It would probably look more like a rabble of rednecks in Chevy pickups, toting Rem 11-87’s and drinking Bud Lite while yelling, “let’s git’em, boys!”

Well, for one thing. Single mom does have to pay for something like that currently. She pays taxes, right? Then she’s paying for it. But we’re all paying for stuff like that. We’re also paying for a lot of stuff that we would rather not be paying for

But, in your scenario, if the perp is found as well as kid then that’s who is stuck with the bill. If perp isn’t found, there are several ways I can think of. But just because I can’t imagine all of the possible ways this could work doesn’t mean anything. There are millions of smart people that will also be working on problems like this

Any number of security services could be involved and either help absorb some of the costs, whether it’s through volunteers or a special donation fund in the company. It could be a part of the company’s insurance policy as well. Before the US federal gov got as belligerent and bloated as it currently is there were mutual aid societies that took care of a lot of healthcare issues, this could be another equivalent. This sounds harsh but if single mom was found to be doing something super-ultra-mega dumb, she could be responsible for part of the costs too.

I can throw in another wrinkle too. In my perfect libertarian utopia, the argument can be made that someone can’t be forced to repay a grievance won by someone else. “Well, gotcha on that one”, I’ve heard on more than one occasion. Not hardly. The unwilling offender becomes an outlaw. Yes, outlaws legitimately make a comeback. In this scenario, if they are unwilling to play nice with the rest of a community it’s entirely plausible that person forfeits any protections against aggression. Or they could forfeit only certain protections. Say the offense is only refusing to pay for a broken mailbox, the stipulation could be that you can’t find the perp and execute him in the city square. Maybe he just doesn’t get to bring a complaint against the mailbox owner for a flat tire. Eye for an eye, and all that.

I know this is a lot of type. But if anyone is genuinely curious about how this could work and is also intellectually honest enough to listen to the best arguments for it there are plenty of libertarian/anarchist books dealing with law and court systems. All you have to do is want to look for them. One of my favorite quotes from my favorite book series is, “all knowledge is worth having”.

 

[The D]

UPS can make money for a better service than the postal service.

Lysander Spooner agrees with this quote

 

[The D]

So, it's not a Soros plan. Okay.

That’s not what you’re wrong about

 

[Skunk]

Let's see what the current situation is. How are they using the taxpayers money for policing now.
Straight from the horses mouth when the horses didn't know that they were being recorded.

NYPD officers brag about milking overtime, call detainees names in accidental recording

Jonathan Wohl was arrested for conducting a one-man protest against his union. When he was taken into custody, his phone kept recording.

gothamist.com

You are advocating that each individual has to pay for their own security. It can be done just the same way it is now. If the money taken from taxes to pay for the police. It would not cost the citizens any more than it does now.
Funny how Fed Ex and UPS can make money for a better service than the postal service.

Well, I see what you’re saying, and agree. But it hasn’t been clearly articulated whether tax dollars pay for private policing companies or the individual pays for his/her individual police service.

It’s an interesting topic, for sure.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Lysander Spooner agrees with this quote

I never heard of him. A quick search and a quick bio read was interesting.

Government doesn't like it when citizens horn in on their monopoly

 

[The D]

Well, I see what you’re saying, and agree. But it hasn’t been clearly articulated whether tax dollars pay for private policing companies or the individual pays for his/her individual police service.

It’s an interesting topic, for sure.

That’s how “private” prisons are funded. There’s no such thing as a truly “private” prison

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Well, I see what you’re saying, and agree. But it hasn’t been clearly articulated whether tax dollars pay for private policing companies or the individual pays for his/her individual police service.

It’s an interesting topic, for sure.

Well I sure as hell ain't going to keep paying the same taxes if I have to pay for a private police department. I hate paying for public schools when I don't have children in them. Especially since private education is far superior than the bullshit of no child left behind public schools

 

[The D]

I never heard of him. A quick search and a quick bio read was interesting.

Government doesn't like it when citizens horn in on their monopoly

No they do not. His book No Treason is a quick and amazing book. It’ll ruffle some feathers here though, it’s a pretty harsh critique of the constitution

Edit: He was also my avatar for a little bit. He’ll probably make a reappearance at some point

 

[theLBC]

Well I sure as hell ain't going to keep paying the same taxes if I have to pay for a private police department. I hate paying for public schools when I don't have children in them. Especially since private education is far superior than the bullshit of no child left behind public schools

i went to a decent public school, in the suburbs, in the 70s though...
that said, if my daughter didn't qualify for a magnet school, i would have sent her to a private school.

 

[Greasly]

I’m not trying to piss you off by challenging your idea, just skeptical of the feasibility of it. I’m also not defending the current policing model by questioning yours.

I’m thinking of this not so hypothetical situation….

A 24yr old woman and her 1yr old son are grocery shopping at a Walmart SuperCenter outside Mobile, AL. Mom has half a cart full of shit and turns her back on the buggy with the little guy in it for 30secs to pick out some tomatoes.

With back turned, some other chick swipes the kid, covers him in a coat and slips into the crowd and out the door. Pandemonium ensues.

The kid was recovered the next day outside Shreveport, LA.

This whole shindig didn’t cost Mom a thing in the current setting. I’m just wondering how a 24yr old single mom would pay for an interstate child recovery under your system.

And I can understand policing wouldn’t look the same as it does now. It would probably look more like a rabble of rednecks in Chevy pickups, toting Rem 11-87’s and drinking Bud Lite while yelling, “let’s git’em, boys!”

I'm gonna bet it won't be Bud Lite

 

[Skunk]

I'm gonna bet it won't be Bud Lite

If we can regain control of LE, we can rid beer of freak-shows. C’mon, Man!

 

[Darayavaus]

 

[Ronws]

I have had problems with the actions of police officers. I have had problems with the decisions of a judge (no case against me but against someone important to me at the time.) So, if we get rid of all of them and have our private police, however we pay for them, and whatever means of arbitration (which is basically what the courts are doing, in the big picture) we still have the energy and expense of a defense. That is, we could certainly balkanize into little groups.

But no man is perfect. Take all the bad cops and miscarriages of justice we have seen. See that logarithmically increase without some set of laws in place that all must abide by regardless. That is how Officer Chauvin got convicted. Laws that hold us accountable also hold him accountable. Most people don't realize that a police officer is quietly suspected of murder until cleared by internal and external investigations. And can still be sued for doing his job.

Back in 1984, when I was getting my state commission to carry a firearm on duty, our instructor gave us a quaint little tail of a police officer who responded to a call of a man at some apartments waiving a gun around and threatening to shoot people. He showed up in a marked squad car with the lights going, got out and drew his weapon. In a loud voice, he identified himself as the police and instructed the person to drop the weapon and take three steps back from it with his hands in the air.

The suspect's response was to turn and aim at him and fire. And the suspect missed. The cop returned fire, one bullet, struck the suspect and he died. The cop was on admin leave while they investigated. Witnesses confirmed his actions and he was cleared of any criminal charges. It was homicide by self-defense.

The family of the suspect sued him in civil court saying that he deprived their loved one of his "rights" when the cop shot and killed him. Eventually, the suit was settled in the cop's favor but he still had to answer the suit.

So, our private police and private courts (arbitration) are still going to have these problems.

I graduated high school in 1982. Last September, my old classmate and I went to our 40 year high school reunion. There were a lot of old people there.

When I graduated high school, you had to earn good grades and take tests to graduate and pass-to-play was still in effect. An athlete could not play if his grades were low. I ran into my English teacher about 10 years after that and it had gone downhill and he retired from teaching and learned another skill.

And I have now long felt that we should abandon the public schools that are not accomplishing what we need. But that means that we need to make changes in our lives and home-school the children. Someone has to be home and administer the lessons.

And employers need to come up with their competency tests for hiring. But that leads back to some kind of credentials making the hiring easier.

So, at times, it seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't. Sometimes, I want to ask God when he was sparing Noah and family, "What the heck were You thinking?"

 

[The D]

And I have now long felt that we should abandon the public schools that are not accomplishing what we need.

Alright, so gov can’t get education right. They can’t get national defense right(don’t even try to defend what’s actually happening). Drinking water is closer to cleaning chemicals than water. The nation’s money/economy is worth a little more than toilet paper. They are tricked(the most charitable excuse) into passing laws that only destroy small businesses and concentrate power upwards. Is there anything these lunatics can get right? They are in control of the most important things in society and they’ve completely fucked all of it up. Instead of being in control of the important things, they need to prove they can operate a lemonade stand first. Then a hotdog stand. Then, maybe a shoe store.