Advanced Marksmanship In the analysis of a group, what part does

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Good bullets are almost perfect. Look at machine rest groups shot in underground tunnels. It's the nut behind the bolt and his/her ability to dope mirage & wind that means more than anything else.
Technology has pretty well answered equipment variables. My dead stock super grade M70 270 WCF with a 3-9 VX III will shoot one hole groups with Green box 130 softpoints. Why? Because it is BOSS equipped. Once dialed in the BOSS eliminates the "normal" rifle/ammo variables. If there is a "flyer", it's me.
I'll never get why Browning didn't license the technology because once they got rid of the ear shredding vented model, it is/was the answer to almost all grouping issues. My wife's BOSS equipped 30-06 BAR (dead stock) will shoot 3 of anything in 1" or less. Load development is a waste of time.
 

Wil

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>


I couldn't disagree more. I've heard some crazy things in my time, and you've posted some of the best.... but this one definitely ranks up near the top....
 

teknikallysekure

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>


I couldn't disagree more. I've heard some crazy things in my time, and you've posted some of the best.... but this one definitely ranks up near the top....

</div></div>

HAHAHA oh man.
 

Wil

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

I guess if you're BOSS equipped you're OK...

boss_hogg.jpg
 

teknikallysekure

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good bullets are almost perfect. Look at machine rest groups shot in underground tunnels. It's the nut behind the bolt and his/her ability to dope mirage & wind that means more than anything else.
Technology has pretty well answered equipment variables. My dead stock super grade M70 270 WCF with a 3-9 VX III will shoot one hole groups with Green box 130 softpoints. Why? Because it is BOSS equipped. Once dialed in the BOSS eliminates the "normal" rifle/ammo variables. If there is a "flyer", it's me.
I'll never get why Browning didn't license the technology because once they got rid of the ear shredding vented model, it is/was the answer to almost all grouping issues. My wife's BOSS equipped 30-06 BAR (dead stock) will shoot 3 of anything in 1" or less. Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>

1240930682324.gif
 

teknikallysekure

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good bullets are almost perfect. Look at machine rest groups shot in underground tunnels. It's the nut behind the bolt and his/her ability to dope mirage & wind that means more than anything else.
Technology has pretty well answered equipment variables. My dead stock super grade M70 270 WCF with a 3-9 VX III will shoot one hole groups with Green box 130 softpoints. Why? Because it is BOSS equipped. Once dialed in the BOSS eliminates the "normal" rifle/ammo variables. If there is a "flyer", it's me.
I'll never get why Browning didn't license the technology because once they got rid of the ear shredding vented model, it is/was the answer to almost all grouping issues. My wife's BOSS equipped 30-06 BAR (dead stock) will shoot 3 of anything in 1" or less. Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>

1242726179184-1.gif
 

teknikallysekure

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good bullets are almost perfect. Look at machine rest groups shot in underground tunnels. It's the nut behind the bolt and his/her ability to dope mirage & wind that means more than anything else.
Technology has pretty well answered equipment variables. My dead stock super grade M70 270 WCF with a 3-9 VX III will shoot one hole groups with Green box 130 softpoints. Why? Because it is BOSS equipped. Once dialed in the BOSS eliminates the "normal" rifle/ammo variables. If there is a "flyer", it's me.
I'll never get why Browning didn't license the technology because once they got rid of the ear shredding vented model, it is/was the answer to almost all grouping issues. My wife's BOSS equipped 30-06 BAR (dead stock) will shoot 3 of anything in 1" or less. Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>

1244926275780.gif
 

Greg Langelius *

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Bullets are not irregular enough to constitute a significant, maybe not even a noticeable, proportion of POI dispersion. If the handloading factors are accounting for 25% of the dispersion, there's something seriously wrong with the process. A well tuned rifle is also seldom playing much of a part in dispersion.

In essence, at least 90% of dispersion issues result from the tug of war between air currents and the shooter's ability to recognize them and successfully compensate for those currents.

Greg
 

Sterling Shooter

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In looking at numerous groups the question comes to mind: What part of the cululative errors does imperfection of the bullet constitute.

Meaning, if wind induced errors account for 40%, and loading irregularities another 25%, sighting or operator error some "Y" %; what "X" amount is due to bullet imperfection in the system represented by what we call a group?</div></div>

Groups, preferably 5 shot groups, are useful for zeroing but not as useful for shot analysis other than discerning perspective of aim issues.

Analyze every shot, calling the shot and plotting it and the strike in the data book to visualize where to trouble-shoot. Typically, when bullets do not go on-call, it has something to do with mechanics, such as the sights not being adjusted correctly. Of course, not correctly accouting for wind could also show a bullet strike off-call. When shots are on-call but are not right-in-there it will usually have something to do with trigger control, or an inconsistent position.

BIW, your wondering about it all is importanat becoming an extraordinary shoooter. Keep wondering but manage it with the data book, recording all conditions which can effect the shot. By using the data book you can correlate errors to conditions much more quickly than from memory.

 

1SMALLJOHNSON

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Holy cripe. The short answer: It depends on the bullet. Run a SMK, and you'll likely see little dispersion due to projectile construction. Run a Nosler Partition, and you'll likely see more. Run a Nosler match, Hornady match, varmint bullet and you'll likely see about as much as the SMK. Run an SS109, and you'll be all over the map. Projectile (not loaded round) concentricity is certainly a player in overall accuracy. Get that bullet off balance, and it'll wobble like a bad wheel on your car. Further, if off balance, you've got two affects you'll deal with. First is the inherent wobble, then corkscrew. Second will be a decreased BC/increased time of flight. With lower BC/increased time of flight, you're hanging that bullet in the air, letting conditions do what they may to an unencumbered projectile.

Want an accurate bullet? Take a look at the construction. How many parts? Can the guilding metal easily yield during construction? Is it easy to "off-center" a portion of the bullet construction? Just and only from a construction standpoint, these design variables are key.

Further, to figure the affect of each variable to accuracy, it don't work out to 1+1+1=3. Instead, it's the square root of each variable added together, equaling the sqare root of the total. Makes a difference when you're dealing with multiple vairables.

If you're running a BOSS, good for you. However, the time it takes to tune your BOSS will consume MORE rounds and take almost as much time as it would take to tune a load, if you do it right. Cripe. Besides, if you want an accurate load, you've got to mind your p's and q's in die setup/loaded round concentricity anyway. Skip that step, and I'll gaurantee your BOSS will be about as valuable as a boat anchor.

Now, all that being said: The very first thing a shooter should do when shooting for accuracy is blame themselves. Look to your position, trigger squeeze, etc. before blaming the gun/load. I've seen more tinkerers sell a perfectly good gun for pennies, all because they think they can throw money at the problem. Ha! Good for me, bad for them. Anybody want to sell a "non-shooter"?
 

Sterling Shooter

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets are not irregular enough to constitute a significant, maybe not even a noticeable, proportion of POI dispersion. If the handloading factors are accounting for 25% of the dispersion, there's something seriously wrong with the process. A well tuned rifle is also seldom playing much of a part in dispersion.

In essence, at least 90% of dispersion issues result from the tug of war between air currents and the shooter's ability to recognize them and successfully compensate for those currents.

Greg</div></div>

Greg,

It's not about wind. It's about basic marksmanship. Shooter/target analysis will only include wind when there actually is some wind which needs to be countered.
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

+10 to Sterling Shooter, you don't get a DR badge sucking down Bud Lites at Bubbs'a gin mill.

As for the rest of you, LOL, all you experts, OF COURSE, all own several BOSS equipped rifles, have participated in the Browning BOSS shoot off contest and have been "developing loads" for 50+ years right? My point (I'll keep it REAL simple) is that a BOSS equipped rifle will shoot sub MOA groups with almost any factory ammo. There are very few "stock" rifles that will do that at anywhere near the same price point. My 308 A-Bolt will shoot white box Winchester and D.N. German milspec ball +-5% as well as Federal GMM (3/4" at worst)
Might I suggest that until you actually own BOSS equipped rifles, you save your unsupported opinions?
As for "load development"..... if you own a standard caliber BOSS equipped rifle and can't find a factory load for everything from Gophers to Elephants, paper & steel etc..... well you're not looking.
Yes, I shoot 99% handloads because I want to, but were I not a reloader, I could go buy a BOSS equipped 30-06 with a good 3-9 and hunt anything in the lower 48 with no qualms. Like this one (which comes with both vented and non-vented "ends)" ( save you from howling!

28770.jpg




Now, I await the HARD EVIDENCE of anything I said here being incorrect.
 

chuff

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

I think Mr Humble is probably right. I'm always awed by the incredible knowledge he demonstrates on a regular basis. I think you're all just jealous.
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Glad you recognize the obvious. The exposure of fake tits, tells me all I need to know about your priority. The silence from the "experts" on all my "errors" about the BOSS can apparently only be answered by some silicon titted broad sneezing (and probably pissing herself).
Glad I could cite some facts to help you out.
Take a CLOSE look at the M 70 Super Grade 270 WCF in this picture. The "lump" on the end of the barrel is a non vented BOSS. He was lasered at 350 and shot with a plain old Remington 130 gr soft point factory Green Box ammo. At 300 yards on paper that load would keep 5 inside 4". More than sufficient to put this boy in the freezer with one shot.
antelope08.jpg
 

chuff

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

That's my signature line. It's in every single one of my posts. Don't think it makes you special in some way. I'm surprised a guy like you even noticed them....
 

teknikallysekure

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad you recognize the obvious. The exposure of fake tits, tells me all I need to know about your priority. The silence from the "experts" on all my "errors" about the BOSS can apparently only be answered by some silicon titted broad sneezing (and probably pissing herself).
Glad I could cite some facts to help you out.
Take a CLOSE look at the M 70 Super Grade 270 WCF in this picture. The "lump" on the end of the barrel is a non vented BOSS. He was lasered at 350 and shot with a plain old Remington 130 gr soft point factory Green Box ammo. At 300 yards on paper that load would keep 5 inside 4". More than sufficient to put this boy in the freezer with one shot.
antelope08.jpg
</div></div>

I thought you'd crawled to within 25 yards of this guy before taking a shot? You should let everyone know we can go ahead and close the reloading forum. Those guys are all still trapped in the "old ways" of thinkin.
 

Greg Langelius *

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Charles;

Of course you're right. Marksmanship makes the difference.

I had allowed myself to think narrowly, about shooting at long distance, where for me, the wind is the significant issue.

Greg
 

Sterling Shooter

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

All,

Can't we all just get along? Any contributor, regardless of their shooting experience, brings unique perspectives here which, I think, can entertain and/or inform all. I benefit from how I see others seeing it. It helps me as a trainer.

All that matters is that our perspective of aim can be made consistent until recoil subsides, since, as we all know, the bullet will alway go in the direction the barrel is pointed. Know where the barrel is pointed and all is well.
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Charles, we can "all get along" when people have I.Q.s higher than the outside temp at 0200 here. I deal poorly with assholes who have never owned the product, have no experience with it,
ridicule what is the truth and try to bully others' into silence.

You obviously have your shit together big time.

The others' stupid posts, attacking me some like they are some Pelosi clone, are going to hear back with facts (and no fake titted sluts).

They can either take part in the discussion with something to contribute, shut up or get told what they don't know and don't want to hear.

And "that's the way it is."
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

You want "old way of thinking" try this on for size!

No, you sad sack, I didn't crawl with 25 yards of THAT one but I did within 18 paces of THIS one. You'll note the rifle has no BOSS, no chamber, not even a percussion cap and shoots big .61 caliber chunks of lead. People who actually know how to HUNT can master more than one method.

As for "shutting down the reloading thread"..... it's too inane to even comment on.

2009elk2.jpg
 

elkhuntinguide

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

I had posted this last night and it disappered... Here it is again....

To the OP... I would agree with 1SJ and SS... I would tend to look at the driver of the rifle verses the equipment...
Most rifles will out shoot the shooter... Proper training, technique and practice will overcome most shooting issues ...
With the quality of ammo and projectiles being produced now, I would tend to look at what I was doing incorrectly
before I would look at the short comings of the projectile for group sizes... Just my .02 ...

As for the BOSS system and the Kool-aid that has been consumed by the masses ... IMHO it is "Highly" overrated...

About a year or so ago I won a Browning A Bolt in .300 Win Mag with a 26" barrel and the BOSS system...
I went out and purchased two boxes of each ...
Black Hills 190 Grain Match Hollow Point ...Federal Premium Gold Medal 190 Grain Sierra MatchKing ...Remington
Premier 180 Grain Swift Scirocco...Winchester Supreme Elite 180 Grain XP3...

The best I could get out of the rifle "Tuning" the BOSS was about 3/4 MOA... Waste of ammo...

Removed the BOSS and got the Black Hills and Federal down to 1/2 MOA and the Remington just under 1/2 MOA...
The Winchester remained about the same as with the BOSS installed...
Boxed the bitch back up and traded it at the local gun shop for a Sendero in 300 Win Mag that shot and still shoots
1/2 MOA with 3 of the 4 brands of ammo listed....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Mr Humble is probably right. I'm always awed by the incredible knowledge he demonstrates on a regular basis. I think you're all just jealous. </div></div>
LMFAO... That was a good one chuff...

Although Mr. Humble is a plethora of information.... 99 % of it is outdated, useless, or second hand knowledge picked up
from the Outdoor Rags and the so called books of knowledge he sells on EGay.... The 1% that may be useful to some is
usually overlooked due to his babbling bullshit he spews constantly of his 67 years experience, his vast knowledge of hunting
and the same handful of pics he hangs...

I sometimes wonder if he was also a mere mortal before the invention of the BOSS system and Barnes releasing the TSX....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, I await the HARD EVIDENCE of anything I said here being incorrect. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My dead stock <span style="color: #3366FF">super grade M70 270 WCF </span>with a 3-9 VX III <span style="color: #FF0000">will shoot one hole groups </span>with <span style="color: #33CC00">Green box 130 softpoints</span>. Why? Because it is BOSS equipped. Once dialed in the BOSS eliminates the "normal" rifle/ammo variables. If there is a "flyer", it's me.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Glad I could cite some facts to help you out.
Take a CLOSE look at the <span style="color: #3366FF">M 70 Super Grade 270 WCF </span>in this picture. The "lump" on the end of the barrel is a non vented BOSS. He was lasered at 350 and shot with a plain old Remington <span style="color: #33CC00">130 gr soft point factory Green Box ammo</span>. <span style="color: #FF0000">At 300 yards on paper that load would keep 5 inside 4"</span>. More than sufficient to put this boy in the freezer with one shot. </div></div>
So which one is it Humble.... Does the 270 shoot one hole groups or 4" groups at 300...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point (I'll keep it REAL simple) is that a BOSS equipped rifle will shoot sub MOA groups with almost any factory ammo. </div></div>
Again I ask the same question... sub MOA groups do not add up to 4" groups at 300....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I could go buy a BOSS equipped 30-06 with a good 3-9 and hunt anything in the lower 48 with no qualms. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My wife's BOSS equipped 30-06 BAR (dead stock) will shoot 3 of anything in 1" or less. </div></div>
Why would you need to buy a 30-06 if the wife has one...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad you recognize the obvious.</div></div>
Yes I think we do Humble.....Bullshit is still bullshit no matter how you type it "Turbo"...
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Anyone who wears a black hood..... well what can I say.

Again try to keep it REAL simple:
1. you, obviously can't operate a BOSS.
2. the one hole (DUH) groups were at 100. That's what almost everyone uses unless they say otherwise. 300 yards is a bit different, especially with a Trijicon 3-9 with a pointed picket post.
3. Again (DUH) I "COULD" not I "WILL" buy an A Bolt 30-06. Besides it's is my wife's 30-06 not mine. My wife does not wear a Burka, so I don't take her stuff.
4. Many rifles will shoot well, but few at the middle class price point are as flexible as a BOSS equipped one.
5. Your 26" barreled 300 WinMag was one of a kind. A Bolts with BOSS systems in Magnum calibers have a 24" barrel, the BOSS adds 2".

BTW, back in 60s when I was stationed in MS, they wore white not black hoods. Your debating skills are right up there with Al Franken!

Still waiting for HARD evidence. How about an independent test of BOSS vs non-BOSS rifle, same make, model & scope, with same factory ammo?
You got the money, I got the time.......

The thing that killed the BOSS was the venting, it looked different and the "gun writers" never really bothered to try it out. The same "gun writers" who killed the 280 Rem, 257 Bob, small fixed power scopes and also think that 30 new cartridges that do nothing old one will not, are God's gift to shooters.
Like a 200 gr TSX from a 35 Whelen @2800 fps will bounce off an Elk but a 200 gr TSX from a 325 WSM @2800 fps will drop him in his tracks. Oh, I forgot, you get a "short action" and a case shape way inferior from the feeding standpoint... WOW.
Then try stuffing a 300 gr Woodleigh in them (oops 220 is the max for the 8mm) and see what happens.

Finally, yes I like Barnes because they are killers. One shot, one dead animal, 100%. Before Xs, I used Partitions (back to when they were made on screw turning machines!). Again, one shot, dead animal. Still a good bullet, just not as good.

barnesbullets.jpg




Pass the popcorn!
 

chuff

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Al Franken won. I'm just sayin'...

Did you just call EHG a racist? What did I miss in his post? Are you trying not to make sense?
 

our gang

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Yes Al did, shows just how dumb people can be. Kinda like a guy who makes the LEAP from someone making fun of an avatar to calling somebody a really bad person. If you can't discuss the merits of my premise, then why not find another thread? Sure you're not really from Boulder?

All I know about our hooded friend who identifies himself as an Elk Guide, is that he can't refute anything I said, owned one BOSS rifle and could not get it to shoot (that is worth an article in Rifle magazine!) and is good at using the quote function.

His personal life in the land of ice & snow (Greenland?) is his own and NOMB.
 

elkhuntinguide

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Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Anyone who wears a black hood..... well what can I say. </div></div>
If you are referring to my Avatar I do believe the hood is Gray and not Black...Irrelevant in any case....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Again try to keep it REAL simple:
1. you, obviously can't operate a BOSS.
2. the one hole (DUH) groups were at 100. That's what almost everyone uses unless they say otherwise. 300 yards is a bit different, especially with a Trijicon 3-9 with a pointed picket post.
3. Again (DUH) I "COULD" not I "WILL" buy an A Bolt 30-06. Besides it's is my wife's 30-06 not mine. My wife does not wear a Burka, so I don't take her stuff.
4. Many rifles will shoot well, but few at the middle class price point are as flexible as a BOSS equipped one.
5. Your 26" barreled 300 WinMag was one of a kind. A Bolts with BOSS systems in Magnum calibers have a 24" barrel, the BOSS adds 2".</div></div>
Keeping it REAL simple is your only choice and that is due to the short comings between your ears...
We'll address the 5 items that seemed to stump you here "Turbo"...
1. I do know how to opereate a BOSS as mentioned above... The groups did get down to 3/4 MOA... Not actually
an acceptable shooting weapon for my taste's... If removal of the BOSS allowed the rifle to shoot better then why would it have been installed in the first place...
2. I as well as everyone here understood the one hole groups were at 100 yds... So you took a 1/4 MOA rifle(per you one hole statement) and turned it into a 1.33 MOA rifle... then use the excuse that it is due to your 3-9 power scope and your reticle choice.... Great job on equipment choices there Turbo...
3.(DUH) I asked why "WOULD" not why "DID" you buy another.... I know coulda, shoulda, woulda... Never said your wife wears a Burka but obviously she does wear the pants of the house...
4. Most rifles shoot well... Alot better than the person buying them... As for the BOSS being flexible... That would be a matter of choice... Something that has to use that amount of ammo to "FINE TUNE" groups for each individual type of ammo sounds like a cluster fuck.. To each his own...
5. To be honest I never measured the barrel and only went off the info listed on the box... It was listed at 26"...
A well as it is listed on the Browning web site as 26".... Browning A-Bolt... Go figure...

As for the remainder of your babbling bullshit... What did any of it have to do with the discussion other than a way to divert from the topic even further than you already have... Typical in your case.... No one cares what you did in the 60s or that you carry a sheet in your glove box.... At least try to keep the topic in the shooting category...

I would love for you to school me in the fine art of shooting but I do not own a Browning rifle or a Super Grade M 70 at all.... But I'm sure I would be impressed....
laugh.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> BTW, back in 60s when I was stationed in MS, they wore white not black hoods. Your debating skills are right up there with Al Franken!

Still waiting for HARD evidence. How about an independent test of BOSS vs non-BOSS rifle, same make, model & scope, with same factory ammo?
You got the money, I got the time.......

The thing that killed the BOSS was the venting, it looked different and the "gun writers" never really bothered to try it out. The same "gun writers" who killed the 280 Rem, 257 Bob, small fixed power scopes and also think that 30 new cartridges that do nothing old one will not, are God's gift to shooters.
Like a 200 gr TSX from a 35 Whelen @2800 fps will bounce off an Elk but a 200 gr TSX from a 325 WSM @2800 fps will drop him in his tracks. Oh, I forgot, you get a "short action" and a case shape way inferior from the feeding standpoint... WOW.
Then try stuffing a 300 gr Woodleigh in them (oops 220 is the max for the 8mm) and see what happens.

Finally, yes I like Barnes because they are killers. One shot, one dead animal, 100%. Before Xs, I used Partitions (back to when they were made on screw turning machines!). Again, one shot, dead animal. Still a good bullet, just not as good.

Pass the popcorn!
</div></div>
This has to be the funniest shit you have typed to date....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> People who actually know how to HUNT can master more than one method. </div></div>
You've killed two elk, a handful of goats and 50 or so deer and now you have MASTERED hunting in multiple methods... You are high on your own supply there Turbo.... Keep posting and keep us laughing...

BTW.... I use the quote function so when your bottom lip starts to quiver and you run and edit your posts , they will still be seen in my posts for others to admire .... Purely for entertainment may I add...

The Barnes discussion we will leave for a different thread as to not Hijack the OP's thread anymore.... See you there Gramps....
 

our gang

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 19, 2007
1,509
4
Cora, Wyoming
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

I could never describe you better than Gump did.
Think this thread has run it's course.
Sorry you appear to believe that women should be kept in their place, i.e. not "wear the pants". You'll be right at home when the Muslims outbreed us into a small minority.
Better stay in Greenland, no mosques to worry about.
 

1SMALLJOHNSON

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 8, 2007
403
3
Tallahassee, FLORIDA
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

Cease Fire, and get back on topic. Want to play with a BOSS, have at it. Don't want to, have at it. Everybody play nice. I've got an opinion, so do you. If BOSS systems were so great, we'd all shoot them in olympic competition. I tried it, I could make the group sizes do funny things, but in the long run, it was ALL about holding the gun real still and yanking on the hangey-down thingy.

Thus, my opinion of barrel tuners...
 

Wil

PRE
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 16, 2006
1,363
4
TX (Austin area)
www.pre-us.com
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>

First, let's see you back up this statement with cold hard facts...

I disagree completely with your statement regardless of whatever trinket you decide to hand on a barrel...


Please show us all where we went wrong. Where is this hard evidence to back up your statement? <grin>
 

Gordon Nettleton

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 29, 2006
765
1
53
Dallas,Texas
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load development is a waste of time. </div></div>

First, let's see you back up this statement with cold hard facts...

I disagree completely with your statement regardless of whatever trinket you decide to hand on a barrel...


Please show us all where we went wrong. Where is this hard evidence to back up your statement? <grin></div></div>

Wil he must be speechless
 

JLM

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 27, 2008
742
1
WY
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Load development is a waste of time</div></div>

news-graphics-2007-_639252a.jpg
 

Brians708

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 20, 2009
371
0
Central Texas
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

My new bumper sticker=
"My BOSS can kick your BOSS'S Ass"


I have shot em on a browning and I think a Winchester as well. Both we vented and sure they helped manage recoil. Neither of them belonged to me, neither shot sub moa at any distance past 150yds... and yes the guy that owned them knew what he was doing, various loads/ various tweaks on the Boss. One was given to him by and elder... another he won at a DU event. He owns neither of them today.. They just don’t run the same compared to a standard bolt rig w/ out the boss. Also neither WIN nor Browning is known "specifically" for out of box-stock sub moa groups....

Me personally... aint gonna be sold with a 4" at 300yd group... keep it. Or skip that noise, buy a custom tube for your action and have a 2" group all day long at 300...just my .02
 

EricF517

Online Training Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 5, 2009
659
0
Howell, Michigan
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles, we can "all get along" when people have I.Q.s higher than the outside temp at 0200 here. I deal poorly with assholes who have never owned the product, have no experience with it,ridicule what is the truth and try to bully others' into silence.

</div></div>

Well after reading what you wrote about the Falcon 5-25 in the optic forum here you are saying that you deal poorly with assholes who have never owned a product or experience with it? Wow why don't you practice what you preach.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, that's a +10. You know what it will look like because if anyone could build a high quality scope in that magnification range with that big an objective at that price, EVERYBODY would.
To even suggest that some unique secret exists in the UK using Jap glass that nobody else can do is a howl. Have you checked labor costs and labor productivity in the UK recently? They make GM look efficient.
There are no "secrets" anymore in making good optics. It's material, machinery, engineering and assembly QUALITY.
You will also note the Brits are NOT using it or any UK made Falcon scope on their L115A3 sniper rifle. If it's God's gift to the world wonder why they (as we) went with Schmidt & Bender???
I'm sure it's a decent $500 scope but you a'int gonna see any in the Sand Box or in the winner's circle at any major match.
So buy whatever you want but it will NEVER be as good as a $500 fixed power scope.
Gump said it so well!
This is quality and I am done debating reality vs totally untested, unsupported wishes hatched after reading some ad.
Take it over to Optics Talk and get some real experts to do a side by side with a fixed 10 Super Sniper.

</div></div>
 

JLM

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 27, 2008
742
1
WY
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well after reading what you wrote about the Falcon 5-25 in the optic forum here you are saying that you deal poorly with assholes who have never owned a product or experience with it?</div></div>

Logic and reason don't work on her. Give up while ya can
laugh.gif
 

teknikallysekure

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: In the analysis of a group, what part does

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricF517</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles, we can "all get along" when people have I.Q.s higher than the outside temp at 0200 here. I deal poorly with assholes who have never owned the product, have no experience with it,ridicule what is the truth and try to bully others' into silence.

</div></div>

Well after reading what you wrote about the Falcon 5-25 in the optic forum here you are saying that you deal poorly with assholes who have never owned a product or experience with it? Wow why don't you practice what you preach.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, that's a +10. You know what it will look like because if anyone could build a high quality scope in that magnification range with that big an objective at that price, EVERYBODY would.
To even suggest that some unique secret exists in the UK using Jap glass that nobody else can do is a howl. Have you checked labor costs and labor productivity in the UK recently? They make GM look efficient.
There are no "secrets" anymore in making good optics. It's material, machinery, engineering and assembly QUALITY.
You will also note the Brits are NOT using it or any UK made Falcon scope on their L115A3 sniper rifle. If it's God's gift to the world wonder why they (as we) went with Schmidt & Bender???
I'm sure it's a decent $500 scope but you a'int gonna see any in the Sand Box or in the winner's circle at any major match.
So buy whatever you want but it will NEVER be as good as a $500 fixed power scope.
Gump said it so well!
This is quality and I am done debating reality vs totally untested, unsupported wishes hatched after reading some ad.
Take it over to Optics Talk and get some real experts to do a side by side with a fixed 10 Super Sniper.

</div></div> </div></div>

lol I missed this thread but it's worth mentioning we had a guy take first in a pretty stiff competition with a Falcon mil/mil.

I think in just about any case it's the trigger puller and less the equipment though, atleast to a certain degree. Sometimes the gun and the operator disagree on how it's supposed to work
laugh.gif