Hello the rifle came out great and I think it was worth the wait ,geoff3
- Thread starter Rudy Gonsior
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Hello I have all the parts waiting for my ( M25 ) barrel to get finished then I can send it out to be built ,geoff3
Good to see this thread back up. I'm not sure I saw it as I reviewed this, but does anyone have groups of what their M25/M25 clone will do?
Regarding groups, its too early to say definitely, as I have only shot 30 rounds out of my just built replica earlier this month. I used 10 rounds for function testing and to get the scope on paper at 100 yards. After that I had 20 rds of a handloads left during that brief range trip. (42.7 Varget w/ 168 SMK w/ CCI BR-2 primers in LC brass at 2.820" OAL). I did two 10-shot groups at 100 yards out of curiosity. I had a low hit on each target that opened both groups to 2.0 MOA extreme spread - but 8 of the 10 rd on one target, and 6 out of the 10 rds on the other target - each printed one enlarged hole about 1.0 to 1.1 MOA. (see attached pic #1)
The barrel is an 1993-dated, Barnett/Douglas, US Navy heavy profile, 1:10 twist tube, with a throat erosion of 2.0. So it has some miles, but not too many. (see pic #2)
I suspect with more break-in and ammo experimentation, my Navy M14 sniper rifle will be a 1.0 to 1.25 MOA rifle with 10-rd groups of ammo that it likes. Again, this was the first test since the rifle was built and bedded, but it shows some promise. Hope that info helps.
The barrel is an 1993-dated, Barnett/Douglas, US Navy heavy profile, 1:10 twist tube, with a throat erosion of 2.0. So it has some miles, but not too many. (see pic #2)
I suspect with more break-in and ammo experimentation, my Navy M14 sniper rifle will be a 1.0 to 1.25 MOA rifle with 10-rd groups of ammo that it likes. Again, this was the first test since the rifle was built and bedded, but it shows some promise. Hope that info helps.
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An interesting short film of one guys journey in getting his build done:
Resurrecting this old thread based on a rifle I recently purchased. I spotted on gunbroker a vintage M1A that was likely made in the mid-90s as a police sniper rifle, and decided to buy it, as I think will make a decent donor rifle for a replica of the last M25s made at Ft. Devens, MA, by 10th Special Forces Group (SFG). As a re-cap, the first pic is from the 1994 dated "Sniper Locker Proposal" from 1st SFG, which based their proposal on what 10th SFG was doing with their program. It's the only pictures I've seen of the black-stocked M25s of that era.
The rifle I bought is about 50 percent "correct" for a replica, and I have gathered the other 40 percent needed to make a decent replica, except the still-elusive BPT gas piston, and of course the 'black box/black ops' sound suppressor that was apparently used back in the early 1990s.
The main challenge I have is figuring out a way to gently remove what I think is black automotive undercoating that was applied to the stock back in the mid-1990s. The 3rd picture is what I presume was a Police Dept/SWAT stamp that was done on this undercoating when it was fresh/first applied (a long time ago). It has chipped off some at the bipod stud (see 4th pic), but I need to remove the rest without using abrasives or anything that will damage the underlying original gel-coat. Any suggestions are welcome. (I am entertaining mildly heating up the stock in the sunlight, and the trying Citris-Strip, since I think that will not damage the original gelcoat.
Anyhow, that is my latest vintage sniper rifle project for 2022-23. Should be unique when its completed. If anyone has any pictures or anecdotal information regarding the original M25s with black McMillan M3A stocks, please let me know. Outside that 1994 Sniper Locker Proposal, they are an enigma. I should have reached out to Tom Kapp a few years ago who was at Ft. Devens during this era and was involved with these rifles, but I heard his health was poor, and he subsequently passed away. So I never got to inquire with him about the history of these M25s. Not sure who else knows much about the final M25s made by 10th SFG before the program was apparently shut-down by Big Army. Just an update re this thread's topic area.
The rifle I bought is about 50 percent "correct" for a replica, and I have gathered the other 40 percent needed to make a decent replica, except the still-elusive BPT gas piston, and of course the 'black box/black ops' sound suppressor that was apparently used back in the early 1990s.
The main challenge I have is figuring out a way to gently remove what I think is black automotive undercoating that was applied to the stock back in the mid-1990s. The 3rd picture is what I presume was a Police Dept/SWAT stamp that was done on this undercoating when it was fresh/first applied (a long time ago). It has chipped off some at the bipod stud (see 4th pic), but I need to remove the rest without using abrasives or anything that will damage the underlying original gel-coat. Any suggestions are welcome. (I am entertaining mildly heating up the stock in the sunlight, and the trying Citris-Strip, since I think that will not damage the original gelcoat.
Anyhow, that is my latest vintage sniper rifle project for 2022-23. Should be unique when its completed. If anyone has any pictures or anecdotal information regarding the original M25s with black McMillan M3A stocks, please let me know. Outside that 1994 Sniper Locker Proposal, they are an enigma. I should have reached out to Tom Kapp a few years ago who was at Ft. Devens during this era and was involved with these rifles, but I heard his health was poor, and he subsequently passed away. So I never got to inquire with him about the history of these M25s. Not sure who else knows much about the final M25s made by 10th SFG before the program was apparently shut-down by Big Army. Just an update re this thread's topic area.
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From what I can tell about everything known about these rifles is pretty much listed/posted on this thread. We (in 1st SFG) looked at developing some back in the early 90's but it never came to fruition. I called out to the 10th and talked to some guys there about them as well back then but the short story is that despite the development of the "M25" individual units in the Army are not supposed to be building guns, thus we had no budget for it and no command acceptance.
Good luck with your build.
Good luck with your build.
Thanks for chiming in. You might be right about this thread having most of the available historical info about a rifle that was never a 'Program of Record.' I am still hoping that someone might post a previously unknown picture of the enigmatic SF M25 from back in the day (circa 1990s).
My replica build should go okay - assuming I can carefully remove all that automotive undercoating without damaging the underlying gel coat...
My replica build should go okay - assuming I can carefully remove all that automotive undercoating without damaging the underlying gel coat...
I don't know if anyone had durability issues with the M3A. My junior engineer came to us in Okinawa in 1987 with fairly fresh experience from Devens with it and held it in high regard. 10th Groupers called it "Dial-a-Death" -- if you were "On" with your range estimation, you dialed it, shot it, and killed it.
Civilians may not understand that you don't necessarily need sub-MOA performance to hit and kill an E-type silhouette. This photo gives you a general idea / comparison for what success looks like -- can you put a 7.62mm bullet through your target to 800 meters (with 7.62)?
An Army/NRA 1,000-yard bullseye target, a white IPSC target, and an E-type silhouette. If you can put a bullet in the black you have a 50% chance of hitting an E-type. If you can hold 8-ring high and 10-ring wide you can hit the E-type. The IPSC target is 9-ring high and ten-ring wide:
Random Guy, the "NPD" might be Norfolk (Virginia) Police Department. If it is, there's a good chance it was built by Sammy Dayton out of the Newport News - General Dynamics Shipyard. He built a number of the Virginia Rifle Team National Match M14s.
Civilians may not understand that you don't necessarily need sub-MOA performance to hit and kill an E-type silhouette. This photo gives you a general idea / comparison for what success looks like -- can you put a 7.62mm bullet through your target to 800 meters (with 7.62)?
An Army/NRA 1,000-yard bullseye target, a white IPSC target, and an E-type silhouette. If you can put a bullet in the black you have a 50% chance of hitting an E-type. If you can hold 8-ring high and 10-ring wide you can hit the E-type. The IPSC target is 9-ring high and ten-ring wide:
Random Guy, the "NPD" might be Norfolk (Virginia) Police Department. If it is, there's a good chance it was built by Sammy Dayton out of the Newport News - General Dynamics Shipyard. He built a number of the Virginia Rifle Team National Match M14s.
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The M3A was/is a very good optic overall, in all the years of shooting them I only saw a handful ever fail in any way. In one case in the mid 90's we had one that the glass on which the reticle was etched came loose and rotated inside the scope. I did see a few that the elevation turret became problematic making it very hard or in one case impossible to rotate. I currently have perhaps 4 or 5 M3's and they are all great scopes for what they are. It seems so weird that we were shooting fixed 10X optics out to and past 1000 meters where now everyone wants 15 - 25X.
I do know that some of the original M25's had B&L Tactical's on them which was B&L's answer to the M3 (still fixed 10X).
I do know that some of the original M25's had B&L Tactical's on them which was B&L's answer to the M3 (still fixed 10X).
Thanks, the rifle was shipped from TN, so the "NPD" stamp is a mystery. I have heard of Sam Dayton, and seen some of his work on a rear-lugged match M1 Garand with a heavy profile stainless steel barrel. I actually tried to contact Mr. Dayton with a phone number that I was given back in 2017 or 2018 to see if he wanted to build my Navy M14 sniper replica but the number I got was wrong/disconnected. So I had Isaac build it.
The "M25ish" rifle I recently bought was well built back in the mid-1990s, with a highly polished M1 hammer and a nice trigger pull of 4 lb 12 ozs. The bedding in MarineTex looks pretty good too. However, the former owner (presumably a police dept) never bothered to clean the gas piston or gas plug. I couldn't believe how much old carbon came out of it. My small drill bit cleaning tool only went in about half way into the small end, and I spent several minutes really torqueing the cleaning tool to scrape old carbon out of the gas plug and gas piston, with a good size pile of carbon residue left over. Bore was cleaned however, but the gas system was really dirty.
Anyhow, I wish you had an old pic of the 10th SFG M25s, as hardly any exist. If you run across one, please post it on this thread, thanks.
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I can't say enough good things about Leupold's customer service. I had a 1989 dated M3A Ultra on my M24R that had small dust or sand specs in the rear ocular, and the adjustments hardly worked. In 2017 I sent to them under their warranty/inspection program. Came back with new glass and internals, perfect working order, and at no charge (other than what it cost me to ship it to Oregon). Check out the 'before and after' adjustment range. For an old military scope that was 28 years old and had likely been around the world a few times, that is just awesome customer service...but I digress.
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"Mac" builds good M1s and M14s. I first met him at Dam Neck in 1999 when he worked out of the Navy Team van during the LANTFLEET, All-Navy, Interservice, and Camp Perry matches.
I wish I had photos of my M25, but I don't think I ever took any before I sold it. John Eckenrode on the Marine Reserve Team re-built my Glenn Nelson National Match into a 3-color desert McMillan. The Bausch and Lomb 10X was on a McCann mount.
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