Interesting read on the decline of religious faith in children.

[chrome]

As an Atheist, do you love someone so much that you care about their soul?

Not speaking for him, but as a fellow non believer, for this statement to make sense, you'll have to demonstrate a soul exists first.

As an Atheist, do you have any idea about the difference between ignorance and defiance?

I believe you are conflating "ignorance and defiance" with someone being simply unconvinced of the god claim(s).

But it's okay for those that don't believe in God's salvation to soil the name of my God and to downplay the righteousness of the Word?

Yes, it is ok to blaspheme religious claims in the public square, at least here in America where 1A still is present. We dont have blasphemy laws here in the states, unlike other theocratic countries have had, and currently have, throughout the world.

You say downplay, others may say, "need more evidence to accept your claims".

 

[ManUtdManiac]

I might be if your rowdy crew of independent children needed to learn a hard lesson.

and do tell, what hard lessons are learned when there's mass starvation, a 19month old baby is raped and tortured to death, millions exterminated blah blah - all because of what valuable lesson?

your whole premise that we need to be 'punished' or 'taught' is the essence of every evil committed in the name of 'this is good for you, trust me' that every religion hides behind when really it's just the vehicle of man's greed for wealth and power over others.

I do wonder what benefit a child would have growing up in some of these 'prosperity churches'.... someone please explain to me how stupid those people are and still able to hold jobs...

I feel more animosity towards the religious who feel the non-beleivers need 'training' than any liberal anti-gunner. I'll go to war against the former over the latter any day.

 

[Lange Carabine]

I think they’re all stupid and all scams these days. Until modern history they served as law of the land and had purpose but not anymore. These days it’s just another form of brainwash and making money. Look at the crook Joel Osteen for example, look how rich that guy has gotten from religion... tell me it isn’t a scam. If he truly believed in what he was doing he would donate all except a livable wage to needy and less fortunate but instead he’s a multi millionaire from preaching and getting richer. Religion absolutely should not be profitable unless they’re going to pay taxes like everyone else.

That said I believe in the first amendment and an individuals right to believe in what they chose and they don’t have to believe the same as me, but they should respect my rights just as a should theirs. The whole you’re damned if you don’t believe the same is just such a narcissistic crock of shit.

Atheism is a religion too. Do you also think it's stupid and a scam as well?

 

[BullGear]

Not wise to be a dick to a hot tempered asshole . I always tell the religious I appreciate their concern, but am not interested. However that’s the limits of my patience.

So again I ask, why is it oaky for you to be able to spew your venom of deceit while you want a believer of God to shut up and sit in the back.

Psalm 23:4-6
King James Version


4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

 

[chrome]

Atheism is a religion too. Do you also think it's stupid and a scam as well?

Incorrect here is as well. Atheism = lack of belief in god(s). It is literally a lack of belief system, which is the opposite of a religion.

Most non-believers I know fall into the category of, "I do not believe a god exists. I am not saying one DOESN'T exist, I just find myself unconvinced of religious claims."

 

[chrome]

It is been a good conversation in this thread, but based on recent replies, I am guessing it's gonna get locked.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

So again I ask, why is it oaky for you to be able to spew your venom of deceit while you want a believer of God to shut up and sit in the back.

Psalm 23:4-6
King James Version


4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

it's his opinion and request to be left alone. Why is that venomous and deceitful?

 

[BullGear]

Good ideas normally dont need that level of persuasion.

It does when the Devil is so prevalent in the world. If you would listen to your soul as much as you try to defend what the Devil puts in your mind, you would see the salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[chrome]

It does when the Devil is so prevalent in the world. If you would listen to your soul as much as you try to defend what the Devil puts in your mind, you would see the salvation through Jesus Christ.

Please define what devil you are referring too and demonstrate a devil exists.

 

[BullGear]

Parables, idioms, and figures of speech. Not everyone is meant to understand them in the fullness in which they were conveyed.

Without understanding, many teach the Book like a collection of fairy tales.

Fairy tales don't hold people's interest.

People need meat.

Ask the Lord dto come into your heart and you will never feel hunger again.

 

[BullGear]

Y’all’s some intelligent, well read folks! No matter what the subject discussed here I always feel so stupid
Thus the avatar Moe Ron

As others have said, I can’t square the existence of God with the world we live in.

I have to think if I were God with all the power, knowledge and love, would this be the world I would create for my loved ones to live in. I think not.

God did not make the world as you see it today. Society has turned away from God. But God is there for you when you decide you are ready to receive Him.

 

[BullGear]

I think they’re all stupid and all scams these days. Until modern history they served as law of the land and had purpose but not anymore. These days it’s just another form of brainwash and making money. Look at the crook Joel Osteen for example, look how rich that guy has gotten from religion... tell me it isn’t a scam. If he truly believed in what he was doing he would donate all except a livable wage to needy and less fortunate but instead he’s a multi millionaire from preaching and getting richer. Religion absolutely should not be profitable unless they’re going to pay taxes like everyone else.

That said I believe in the first amendment and an individuals right to believe in what they chose and they don’t have to believe the same as me, but they should respect my rights just as a should theirs. The whole you’re damned if you don’t believe the same is just such a narcissistic crock of shit.

There are many instances in the Bible that talk about the false prophets. It is also mentioned by Jesus, that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven. Don't mistake God's word for the word of mankind. Follow the Bible's word and no $5,000 suit wearing preacher can lead you astray.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Incorrect here is as well. Atheism = lack of belief in god(s). It is literally a lack of belief system, which is the opposite of a religion.

Most non-believers I know fall into the category of, "I do not believe a god exists. I am not saying one DOESN'T exist, I just find myself unconvinced of religious claims."

The atheist worships alright. But they, like all who reject the one true God, creates an idol, in the atheists case it is an idol of himself to satisfy both the inner knowledge that there really is a God and the inner necessity to worship that God.
The atheist creates a religion of trust in himself that meets at least one of several definitions of "religion".
And I'm well aware of the definition of secularism in common usage today.
However if you look closely at the way things are currently in regards to religious freedom around the world you'll see that things line up more so with the biblical definition I posted that they do with the common definition you speak of.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Atheism is a religion too. Do you also think it's stupid and a scam as well?

The definition of an atheist is a person who doesn’t believe in any god or gods. So please explain how that’s a religion...

 

[chrome]

The atheist worships alright. But they, like all who reject the one true God, creates an idol, in the atheists case it is an idol of himself to satisfy both the inner knowledge that there really is a God and the inner necessity to worship that God.

Do you have any evidence and subsequent proof this is true? I can disprove this statement solely with myself, an N=1 sample. I do not worship/idol myself as a deity, nor do I deny the "inner knowledge" of a god (what does that even mean?).

In short, your perspective on non-believers is misaligned to reality.

The atheist creates a religion of trust in himself that meets at least one of several definitions of "religion".

This is simply false. Show me the religious belief system that the "atheist" creates that remotely comes close to any of today's popular religious belief systems.

Dont think you are going to find it, as the definition of atheism is literally a single answer, to a single question. No more, no less.

And I'm well aware of the definition of secularism in common usage today.
However if you look closely at the way things are currently in regards to religious freedom around the world you'll see that things line up more so with the biblical definition I posted that they do with the common definition you speak of.

Be more specific and use examples please. Where should I closely look?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

There are many instances in the Bible that talk about the false prophets. It is also mentioned by Jesus, that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven. Don't mistake God's word for the word of mankind. Follow the Bible's word and no $5,000 suit wearing preacher can lead you astray.

So believe in a book that suggest a camel can pass through the eye of a needle... gotcha...

I’ve read the Bible, numerous times out of my own curiosity because I’m a nerd like that. Anybody with the slightest bit of common sense would see through the bullshit of about half of the crap in it. Some has merit as ancient law of the land but this isn’t applicable to modern society, we have laws and courts and all of that good stuff. Does it always work? No but I doubt the Bible did back in its day either.

Scientologists and Muslims think their religions are the truth too...

 

[BullGear]

Not speaking for him, but as a fellow non believer, for this statement to make sense, you'll have to demonstrate a soul exists first.



I believe you are conflating "ignorance and defiance" with someone being simply unconvinced of the god claim(s).



Yes, it is ok to blaspheme religious claims in the public square, at least here in America where 1A still is present. We dont have blasphemy laws here in the states, unlike other theocratic countries have had, and currently have, throughout the world.

You say downplay, others may say, "need more evidence to accept your claims".

You have a soul and that soul talks to you every day. I can't prove to a nonbeliever that a soul exists anymore than I can tell you how to spend a fortune. But I do know that if you'd open your heart, a fortune of unbelievable wealth will enter your soul.

You're lack of knowledge of a God is why I'm hear. Release your worldly mind and just for a second believe t hat God loves you and was willing to give his only begotten son for your sins.

I've never denied you the right to speak about your views, and I wish you'd allow me to share mine. You don't have to become defensive just because a Christian won't kow tow to your words. My word is victorious, my soul is saved. I am not a perfect man, nor a perfect Christian, but God knows that and still accepts me as a son.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Do you have any evidence and subsequent proof this is true? I can disprove this statement solely with myself, an N=1 sample. I do not worship/idol myself as a deity, nor do I deny the "inner knowledge" of a god (what does that even mean?).

In short, your perspective on non-believers is misaligned to reality.



This is simply false. Show me the religious belief system that the "atheist" creates that remotely comes close to any of today's popular religious belief systems.

Dont think you are going to find it, as the definition of atheism is literally a single answer, to a single question. No more, no less.



Be more specific and use examples please. Where should I closely look?

Well said. I don’t worship myself either, but some women have LOL.

 

[Aries256]

But it's okay for those that don't believe in God's salvation to soil the name of my God and to downplay the righteousness of the Word?

You must be a Democrat.

Did I say that? Did I say that’s ok? Youre acting more like a democrat putting words in my mouth. But on that note, while everyone should respect you having those beliefs whether I or they dont, some are disrespectful in their criticism, and attack the person on it, and in my mind that isnt right. However, christians and moslems seem to think they can spew whatever lie filled crap they want about others, while getting butthurt when they get it back in kind. While I despise religion (note religion, not the ones holding it, love the religious but not the religion sorta thing) with a passion, i dont believe people that have religion should be prevented from it. However if I say Im not interested, then fuck off, irritating me further isnt going to help your cause.

 

[BullGear]

The definition of an atheist is a person who doesn’t believe in any god or gods. So please explain how that’s a religion...

In fact an Atheist rebukes God, an Agnostic does not believe there is enough information to determine if there is a God or not. As you said, it' is impossible for an Atheist to have a religion. However, it is not too late for an Atheist to turn to God. I will soon post a story about my Grand father.

 

[chrome]

...I can't prove to a nonbeliever.....

Thank you for the above, I agree as well, you cannot prove your claim.

You're lack of knowledge of a God is why I'm hear. Release your worldly mind and just for a second believe t hat God loves you and was willing to give his only begotten son for your sins.

I am actually relatively well read on religion, specifically the one we are discussing. Do not conflate lack of knowledge with lack of acceptance of your claim.

I've never denied you the right to speak about your views, and I wish you'd allow me to share mine.

You've accused others in this thread of "spew your venom of deceit...", that is not normally how a civilized conversation occurs when in discussion with adults. No one here has stopped you from proselytizing.

You don't have to become defensive just because a Christian won't kow tow to your words. My word is victorious, my soul is saved. I am not a perfect man, nor a perfect Christian, but God knows that and still accepts me as a son.

Where did I come across as defensive, or ask anyone to "kow tow"? Stack my responses on top of each other and you'll see a genuine inquiry with questions and pressing other's beliefs in the spirit of joint understanding.

 

[Maggot]

Gothca, im tracking your explanation above. Where I get confused and/or find it illogical, considering the bible is the inspired word of a god, is the need to deliver a new covenant at all? Why was the OT so awful with behavior from a deity killing populations in the first place? Why did the rules and/or deity's character change?

I know this means we are getting into the weeds of covenant theology (noah, moses, abrahamic, jesus, and maybe some inbetween) which is probably best served over a real-time convo.



Agreed, I honestly try to come from a place of understanding, which is why most of my posts end or start with questions. I appreciate the dialogue.



To link this back to the original article, I think zooming out and looking at national research data from Pew (HERE), demonstrating more adults are becoming religions "nones", we would expect a correlation to their children also not adopting those beliefs systems.

I pondered that for a long time. What Ive come up with is that the old testament is 'Man's' intertpreting what they believe is the word, or way, of God according to their own understanding. Their lives were brutal so they saw what was often a brutal, vengeful God. Jesus came and realized that there is a higher way to approach the infinite, eternal, being. God didnt change, man's understanding of its true nature changed. My $00.02.

 

[Aries256]

Atheism is a religion too. Do you also think it's stupid and a scam as well?

You apparently do not know the definition of atheism.

 

[BullGear]

So believe in a book that suggest a camel can pass through the eye of a needle... gotcha...

I’ve read the Bible, numerous times out of my own curiosity because I’m a nerd like that. Anybody with the slightest bit of common sense would see through the bullshit of about half of the crap in it. Some has merit as ancient law of the land but this isn’t applicable to modern society, we have laws and courts and all of that good stuff. Does it always work? No but I doubt the Bible did back in its day either.

Scientologists and Muslims think their religions are the truth too...

The Bible is much more than just words. Reading it as a textbook will get you nowhere. Delving into the Bible and being taught how to study the Bible is what you need to try.

As far as a camel, there are so many things in the Bible that you will understand one day, whether it's here on Earth or standing at Judgement. I can't change you. I can't make you believe, but one day we all will be judged for our actions while on Earth. I hope and pray that one day, you will come to know God and his son jesus as your personal savior. Until then, I promise I will pray for you.

God Bless brother.

 

[W54/XM-388]

So believe in a book that suggest a camel can pass through the eye of a needle... gotcha...

You might want to you know check history and context before you use something actually quite correct as your statement about why something is not correct...

The eye of the needle was a very narrow and low gate in ancient Jerusalem where the entrance taxes were lower because it was assumed to be only for donkeys and people carrying stuff. (Basically tax was per animal load).

But paying less taxes is an art form, so some of the more interesting types would try to get their camels onto their knees and bellies practically drag them through the gate which needless to say was an ordeal and the camels really weren't happy about it.
It happened often enough it was sort of the going joke of the day.

So when Jesus was saying that, everybody he was talking too knew exactly what he meant and most likely had a pretty good chuckle comparing the fancy robed rich folks to the protesting camels.

 

[Aries256]

In fact an Atheist rebukes God, an Agnostic does not believe there is enough information to determine if there is a God or not. As you said, it' is impossible for an Atheist to have a religion. However, it is not too late for an Atheist to turn to God. I will soon post a story about my Grand father.

Atheist is one who holds as fact (via lack of evidence otherwise) that deities dont exist. Or in other words dont believe in any god or goddesses.

 

[Maggot]

It is been a good conversation in this thread, but based on recent replies, I am guessing it's gonna get locked.

Unfortunately. I think most of the important points have been covered pretty well. By some anyway. There are a few who cant really think, they just repeat as they have been programmed. Usually, though they think they are being non judgmental, that is exactly what they are doing.

 

[Maggot]

Atheist is one who holds as fact (via lack of evidence otherwise) that deities dont exist. Or in other words dont believe in any god or goddesses.

Goddess? Did you say Goddess?

That religion sounds interesting.

Interestingly enough, most of the early religions of the Fertile Crescent, Babylon, etc, were goddess worshipers. In interesting read is the book When God was a Woman.

 

[Aries256]

Hahahahahahaha what venom? maybe I should spew back all the venom Ive gotten from christians over the years.

 

[Aries256]

Goddess? Did you say Goddess?

That religion sounds interesting.

Interestingly enough, most of the early religions of the Fertile Crescent, Babylon, etc, were goddess worshipers. In interesting read is the book When God was a Woman.

View attachment 7502218

If I believed in deities, my goddess of choice would be Zorya Utrennyaya Slavic war goddess, protector of warriors/soldiers.

 

[Aries256]

As an Atheist, do you love someone so much that you care about their soul? As an Atheist, do you have any idea about the difference between ignorance and defiance? We as children of God always want to spread the word, because that is what we are tasked with by Jesus. Your harshness towards me and my God is human defiance. Never knowing the word of God is ignorance. I am not here to judge you for if I do, then I too will be judged. Only God has that responsibility. I am just a soldier in my God's army.

Nothing wrong with defiance.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

I pray to the gods of chamber concentricity, recoil management and their Overlord : Spin D.

verily, here do unto thee endeth the flight of thine hallow'd bullet, IMPACT!

 

[Aries256]

I pray to the gods of chamber concentricity, recoil management and their Overlord : Spin D.

verily, here do unto thee endeth the flight of thine hallow'd bullet, IMPACT!

I like that

 

[nexusfire]

Is there any evidence that people of faith are more "good" and/or "morale" (definitions vary, i understand) than non-believers?

Said another way, is there a morale act a person of faith can do, that a non-believer cannot do?

That is not the message of Jesus. His persecution and death was payment for your sins, because we are all imperfect and we are all sinners. Sin is not just looking at porn, drinking, gambling, etc. It is more about love vs hate of your fellow man. It is not possible for any of us to be good enough to deserve salvation. Any religion that teaches you have to do "works" to earn your way into heaven is wrong. Being a follower of Jesus is not about being "holier then thou". Look at the people that he associated with and the people he spoke out against. He was with prostitutes and tax collectors (the scammers of that day). He spoke out against the Pharisees (the "holy" ones). Jesus condemned those who prayed loudly in public, made it known to everyone that they were fasting, or made public displays of generosity.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Any religion that teaches you have to do "works" to earn your way into heaven is wrong.

oh really? So Zorastrians should stop being of good deeds, good thoughts and good people because your religion says so....

 

[Lange Carabine]

Incorrect here is as well. Atheism = lack of belief in god(s). It is literally a lack of belief system, which is the opposite of a religion.

Most non-believers I know fall into the category of, "I do not believe a god exists. I am not saying one DOESN'T exist, I just find myself unconvinced of religious claims."

Do you believe that God absolutely does not exist?

 

[chrome]

Do you believe that God absolutely does not exist?

I remain unconvinced about current claims surrounding currently discussed deities. I am actually quite open minded to their possibility, but I believe the common evidence used to justify a god's existence is unwarranted.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Fair enough.
Curious though as to what sort of evidence it would take to convince you of the existence of a god or the God?

 

[M8541Reaper]

The only truth to any religion is that they all have assisted in fertilizing the earth.

If religion is something you wish to believe in, then you do you.

If religion isn’t something you wish to believe in, then you do you.

I personally choose to say no thanks and go on with my life. You immediately lose the argument for it when you use “god’s plan/will/WTF ever” when it comes to kid cancer and child abuse or when one tribe slaughters and kidnaps children from a school. The earth has been soaked in blood since the beginning of time, just because one group believes that their imaginary friend is better than the other group’s imaginary friend. It’s insane, yet it is pretty much the only constant in history.

I don’t see anything wrong with raising your kid with or without religion. If it’s something they want to do once they’re older, then they can go for it. But there’s no correlation between a lack of faith and being a productive member of society or good parent/person. My indifference ends when you try to push your opinions on others.

 

[chrome]

Fair enough.
Curious though as to what sort of evidence it would take to convince you of the existence of a god or the God?

Now that is a GREAT question, something I've thought about on/off as these conversations evolve. Controlling for being drugged, hallucinating, other mental disease, and also controlling for some type of super advanced technology tricking me: god could show up and materialize right now in front of me and demonstrate through some type of omnipotent action, that they are god.

Now I'll assume and state, based on my understanding of scripture, this isn't necessarily in the abrahamic god's nature or track record. But it is a start given your question.

And then lastly, what comes to mind about what evidence I'd take as proof, I think god should ultimately know what evidence would work for me, right? Assuming they match to the type of god that is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Now that is a GREAT question, something I've thought about on/off as these conversations evolve. Controlling for being drugged, hallucinating, other mental disease, and also controlling for some type of super advanced technology tricking me: god could show up and materialize right now in front of me and demonstrate through some type of omnipotent action, that they are god.

Now I'll assume and state, based on my understanding of scripture, this isn't necessarily in the abrahamic god's nature or track record. But it is a start given your question.

And then lastly, what comes to mind about what evidence I'd take as proof, I think god should ultimately know what evidence would work for me, right? Assuming they match to the type of god that is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

christian doctrine states you need to have faith with the express absence of evidence otherwise it's not faith. I don't have faith in gravity, gravity is provable, undeniable, there's no merit to my 'belieiving' in gravtiy. JC rewards faith, blind faith, not evidence based decisions driven and supported by empirical data. Evidence is the killer of faith.

 

[theLBC]

i believe in honesty and virtue, but i cannot prove they exist except by providing examples of people that act with honesty and virtue.
similarly, i cannot prove that god exists, except in the actions of those motivated by their faith.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

i believe in honesty and virtue, but i cannot prove they exist except by providing examples of people that act with honesty and virtue.
similarly, i cannot prove that god exists, except in the actions of those motivated by their faith.

really? You can't prove honesty? Fact and fiction are indiscernible to you?

 

[theLBC]

really? You can't prove honesty? Fact and fiction are indiscernible to you?

ok, prove honesty or love exists, without using an example.
i don't mean the definition of the word.

 

[chrome]

ok, prove honesty or love exists, without using an example.
i don't mean the definition of the word.

@ManUtdManiac , I see what LBC is demonstrating here. He's referencing talking about abstract concepts that possess no 3d reference points, i.e. beliefs.

With love, we could measure behavior, neurotransmitter release, etc., but the behavior would be an example so it wouldn't work.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

erm... honesty is the accurate, complete and unabridged recounting of events, intent and actions as best to the recollection of the person, peoples or institutions presenting them. Veracity of that honesty is the confirmation of those facts. Honesty is provable as it's the outcome of an assessment. That's what seperates fact from fiction.

I don't know how to prove love. it's an emotion that someone professes. Honesty is not an emotion.

Virtue is a subjective assessment of actions with a fluid definition but is commonly heavily weighted with being observably (and thus provably) honest.

 

[theLBC]

erm... honesty is the accurate, complete and unabridged recounting of events, intent and actions as best to the recollection of the person, peoples or institutions presenting them. Veracity of that honesty is the confirmation of those facts. Honesty is provable as it's the outcome of an assessment. That's what seperates fact from fiction.

I don't know how to prove love. it's an emotion that someone professes. Honesty is not an emotion.

Virtue is a subjective assessment of actions with a fluid definition but is commonly heavily weighted with being observably (and thus provably) honest.

i am not trying to get into an argument, but i believe you are mixing up honesty with truth.
a man may tell the truth, motivated by his desire to be honest, but you cannot see that honesty in the absence of some action to demonstrate it.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

@ManUtdManiac , I see what LBC is demonstrating here. He's referencing talking about abstract concepts that possess no 3d reference points, i.e. beliefs.

With love, we could measure behavior, neurotransmitter release, etc., but the behavior would be an example so it wouldn't work.

honesty is by definition provable and demonstrable. It's also reputational which is evidence based.

Love can be explaned as a series of chemical reactions. The chemical status of love can be replicated with the consumption of adequate levels of chocolate. Love is a euphoric mental status brought about my seratonin.

 

[theLBC]

similarly, you cannot see or prove love, except by giving examples of selfless devotion.
yet i am certain that love exists.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

i am not trying to get into an argument, but i believe you are mixing up honesty with truth.
a man may tell the truth, motivated by his desire to be honest, but you cannot see that honesty in the absence of some action to demonstrate it.

I agree. Therefore, honesty can be proven. AS can it's opposite. Dishonesty. It's scientifically valid to prove something through it's negative or opposite state. I can atest to gravity because things don't float on their own.