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Rifle Scopes Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

W

WARDOG

Mountain Man
Full Member
Minuteman
May 27, 2009
120
3
Elk City, Idaho
Can somebody in the optics industry tell me why scopemakers are not making internal anti-cant bubbles in their scopes?

I have an older Springfield Armory scope on my AR-10 (TU) that has the internal Anti-Cant bubble. It is circa year 2000 when they still made good scopes, and the optical clarity isn't bad for the $700 I paid back then. The internal bubble helps tremendously when shooting 800+ yards from a prone position on non-level ground to a target that is on another slope at distance.
Anyway I am putting a Leupold Mk 4 6.5-20 on a Surgeon rifle build and I can't figure out why some higher-end scopes aren't doing what really works. Am I missing something?
I am currently looking at the US optics Non-folding AC and Co-sine device on the scope (Unless someone has a better suggestion). Obviously you have to use your weak eye to view the bubble as your strong eye maintains target.
Any insight would be appreciated.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Not really a better idea, but I use these on my scopes, don't want stuff hanging out there. I lock my bipod when its on target and level, and don't look at it while firing, but must relevel after each shot. Your point is a good one!
smile.gif

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=689346
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I sold all my other stuff and bought a bunch of these, they are the best I've found...

http://www.hollandguns.com/

Go to "scope mounts and levels" look at the Signature series scope levels.

The levels that stick out the side and even the folding ones are a pain, and anything with a removable cover is a pain.

I like these a lot, they are very easy to use with no head movement.

Vortex also makes one that is similar, but I don't know how far they stick out the side, I haven't seen one in person.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I think the holand scope level look pretty slick...

But +1 for wanting internal cant level
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Thanks GENTS! These never came up on a Google search for "Anti-Cant". I do like the Holland AC since it appears to be on the same plane as your dominant eye.
The Superior Shooting AC looks like it may be obscured by the scope bell, or is lower than the plane of the dominant eye?
I realize it is hard to tell by pics.
I think I will get in a shooting position to see the optimal optical plane.
Any more suggestions out there?
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Now I like that Holland ACD! Hadn't seen them mentioned yet! Price is about what it should be also!

I am confused though, the pics of the folding Pic rail version seem like they are integrated into his "Perfect Pic Rail Mount". Is this the case? Or is there also a regular clamp on pic rail folding version?? Any one have any better pics?? I'm interested!
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

The Holland folding pic rail mounted ACD requires drilling and tapping to mount it. Darrell just told me today I will get my next shipment of 30mm levels in about 7-10 days. I try to stock them at all times. I believe it's the very best one there is. Mounting to the scope tube also eliminates any error from the rail mounting slightly off of bore centerline. Meaning it is better to mount the scope centererd over the bore than squared off of the rail. In a perfect world those two things are the same but frequently they are not.

As far as gimick. They have a place. When shooting in extreme terrain at extended distances it is impossible to detect a 1/2 degree tilt. When you are dialed up 53 MOA and dealing with near 800"+ of drop 1/2 degree at 1500 yards is a clean miss by feet not inches. Using an ACD cut my 500 yards groups to an 1" where I could never shoot that tight without it. That is only using 5 1/2 MOA correction.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I have looked through the us optic with internal level. It is pretty cool. Mike at CS tactical has one.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I had a Springfield Armory 6-20x56 govt model scope that was FFP, green and red illumination and had an internal bubble. I got it back in 1997 I think. It worked fine and all to the best of my memory, but I think an internal bubble is just another thing that can break or be set off level when it leaves the factory. This would lead to more product complaints and returns, leading to higher costs and such. I don't think that most optics companies want to deal with the hassle.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

USO better offer a retrofit because I want it!!!
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I picked up a Hammers Scope at a gun show this spring with an internal level. I could not believe how nice it was to have. I also couldn't believe how Canted I used to shoot without the level.Its a great feature. I hope to see more manufacturers add it to their line.
[
5227.jpg
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level. </div></div>

That depends on your ability to sense vertical. In most cases I'd agree, but occasionally you're looking at terrain which doesn't give a horizontal or vertical reference. It can also give a false apparent reference. Few people can sense vertical to better than about 5 degrees simply by the "feel" of gravity or their inner ear. Most of the error caused by a small cant is the sine of the cant angle times the total bullet drop at the target. For a 308 (168 SMK) at 1000 yards only a 2 degree cant will give a horizontal POI error of about 18 inches. A clean miss for a sniping shot.

It's worthwhile for any long range shooter to test their ability to estimate a vertical (or horizontal) reference in various conditions such as in low light and in wind when there are no visual references like a distant horizon, walls of buildings, or tall trees. Cant error is usually small compared to wind estimation error but cant is easy to measure and eliminate with an inexpensive and lightweight instrument, usually a bubble level.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level. </div></div>
Using your horizonal reticle to determine level only works if you have a level horizon, or a level target. That is only typical at target ranges.
I don't typicaly shoot an F-Class at a 1200 yard level pasture. I shoot in some crazy locations, no wind flags, not always prone or from a rest.
I challenge myself by finding areas to post a target that is less than optimal.
Like I posted earlier, shooting from one slope grade to another different slope grade is exceptionally deceiving on just what is level enough.
I have also found that when your body is at an angle, facing on any direction but up, deceives your senses. An AC, and Co Sine device removes as much of the human error as you allow it to.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level. </div></div>

when you start shooting long range a bubble level is VERY important. A small error in can't will produce undesired results. Part of the learning curve
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level. </div></div>

I disagree - heck I used to rough frame custom homes and for some reason they all turned out like the leaning tower of Pisa... ;-) kidding.

I was shooting at Blackwater at 800 yds (.308 w/ GMM168) when the fellow shooting next to me made a wise crack about my ACD level bubble. I tried to give him a quick explanation but he just blew me off. When the targets came back up mine had one 4" disk covering my 3 shots. His were scattered all over the place.

I find it helps me find level as my sense of perfect level without it is not as consistent.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Kill two birds with one stone and get - Horus (Angle Slope Level Indicator)
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

We have made a bunch of them for our scopes and will be making a large run of them in a week or two as soon as the machine is free.
They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.
John III
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

John what kind of cost in retrofitting?

I like the Horus with ACD and ACI in one but it does not look very sturdy. I could see me smashing it up hunting and packing. That's the main reason I use the folding USO. It folds out of the way and has a machined metal cover. Not even my horses could smash it. It is completely out of the way when I don't need it.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBW#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have made a bunch of them for our scopes and will be making a large run of them in a week or two as soon as the machine is free.
They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.
John III </div></div>

John, you are the F'in man!!!!!
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBW#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have made a bunch of them for our scopes and will be making a large run of them in a week or two as soon as the machine is free.
They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.
John III </div></div>

PM sent!
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have made a bunch of them for our scopes and will be making a large run of them in a week or two as soon as the machine is free.
They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.</div></div>

This is outrageous behavior! Give the customers what they ask for? There oughta be a law...
laugh.gif
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're pointless. Bubble levels are for framing houses, not shooting. You can just look at your horizontal reticle and see if you're level. </div></div>

That depends on your ability to sense vertical. In most cases I'd agree, but occasionally you're looking at terrain which doesn't give a horizontal or vertical reference. It can also give a false apparent reference. Few people can sense vertical to better than about 5 degrees simply by the "feel" of gravity or their inner ear. Most of the error caused by a small cant is the sine of the cant angle times the total bullet drop at the target. For a 308 (168 SMK) at 1000 yards only a 2 degree cant will give a horizontal POI error of about 18 inches. A clean miss for a sniping shot.

It's worthwhile for any long range shooter to test their ability to estimate a vertical (or horizontal) reference in various conditions such as in low light and in wind when there are no visual references like a distant horizon, walls of buildings, or tall trees. Cant error is usually small compared to wind estimation error but cant is easy to measure and eliminate with an inexpensive and lightweight instrument, usually a bubble level.
</div></div>

especially those of us that have a jacked up inner ear. I'm kinda screwed with a perferated right eardrum. Ever since that, my balance has not quite been the same. I think I'll be putting some kind of level on my build!
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBW#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have made a bunch of them for our scopes and will be making a large run of them in a week or two as soon as the machine is free.
They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.
John III </div></div>

I am interested...PM sent
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRIM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
XOR said:
I was shooting at Blackwater at <span style="font-weight: bold">800 yds</span> (.308 w/ <span style="font-weight: bold">GMM168</span>) </div></div>

That was most likely the main problem right there!
Click to expand...
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Had AR15Barrels mill a spot in my stock... Looks like this but in a Manners T4
BubbleLevel02.jpg
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I've seen the SA bubble levels shoot loose in the middle of a match before.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Sorry for th edelayed response, had to figure out the pricing on it.

It will be $85 with the purchase of your scope, $130 for a retro fit plus shipping.

I will get you some pictures of it as soon as I get one back from anodizing.
John III
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBW#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They can be retrofit to all existing scopes.
John III </div></div>

Dammit.....
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Tag for future use.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

now hopefuly other manufactures might ad the levels to their scopes i wonder if USO can put a level in my premier?
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

I just contacted Jeff at USO, and had him change my quote to include the internal level. Thanks guys for bringing this option to my attention.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

This is an interesting development from USO. I've been using Deros Level Grouses attached to my scope tubes. I find they're much more sensitive than bubble levels, but whatever you do don't order from the manufacturer (get 'em from Cheese) and don't expect any customer support when you break one (they're not exactly hardened).
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Any update on these?

Pix?

I may send my SN back for one of these since time actuating a trigger is nonexistent here in KY.
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

Well, can it be much easyer than this?
37367_465816924407_680984407_6430292_5974279_n.jpg


Bubble is always there, easaly seen by your left eye.
Not protuding, not forgotten at home, not breaken of at last stage........

Håkan
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bubble is always there, easaly seen by your left eye.
Not protuding, not forgotten at home, not breaken of at last stage........
</div></div>

Internally; Bubble is always there, easily seen by your <span style="text-decoration: underline">scope</span> eye.
Not protuding, not forgotten at home, not breaken of at last stage........
John III
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

That means you has to like Tasco or SA scopes.....
You have to like MOA adjustments........
Great!!!

Håkan
 
Re: Internal Bubble Anti Cant on Scopes?

JBW is not talking about Tasco or SA.

He is with U.S. Optics and will be installing them in the scopes he manufactures, already aligned with the reticle and tracking. His scopes are available with any angular adjustment value and reticle you wish...... Mil, MOA, IPHY, and I bet he would even do a custom adjustment system if you were willing to pay for it.
 
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