Iran+Turkey +NATO?

[Ravenworks]

No one else is covering this story
So I wonder when Turkey will get cut loose from NATO?


Turkey and Iran have launched a joint military operation against Kurdish rebels along Turkey's eastern border, according to an official.

Turkey announces joint raids with Iran against Kurdish rebels

Interior minister says Turkey and Iran launched joint operation against PKK, a claim state media in Tehran denies.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Ruh roh Raggy!

 

[W54/XM-388]

So weren't we like "Protecting" the Kurds from the Russians or some such thing???
But I guess it's find for our "friends" the Turks to kill them wholesale?

 

[Ravenworks]

Yes we are/were protecting them.
We still have our people embedded with them.
Bigger problem, Turkey is a NATO member going off script with a terroristic labeled country

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

We have always turned our backs on the Kurds once we were finished with what we wanted....it would be a surprise to everyone IF we did not.

Turkey running wild with Iran while we have Nuks at the base there is outrageous though.
The amount of money and Defense industry aide we provide to Turkey just for base utilization is crazy.
Especially considering Poland has already agreed to build us a base for FREE and not charge us to utilize it IF we pulled base out of Turkey and put in Poland.

Use this to vote Turkey out of NATO and reason to pull our Nuks and base from Turkey. Transition everything to Poland.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Ravenworks]

The Poles would be grateful to have us.
As stated above,what bothers me is all our stuff there.
Either way this ain't gonna end well

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

This is going to be very interesting to see how the DoS and DDTC handle this situation; along with the USA Defense companies that have not only sold equipment to Turkey under DoS/DDTC Foreign Military Sale program but also transferred technology to Turkish companies to manufacturer the equipment under Joint Ventures in Turkey.

Under FMS guidelines Turkey cannot utilize any of that purchased and/or manufactured equipment with Iran (Or any other sanctioned country) as their "partner".
In Turkey case this primarily would be the F16, Blackhawk and the C130. There are some other equipment but this is the larger and more expensive type equipment.
The joint venture companies that have been formed in Turkey with General Dynamics, Lockheed, and Sikorsky are all at risk of DoS/DDTC forcing them closed. I can assure you those companies are in contact with their Turkish partners saying "You are going to loose millions if you cannot get your Gov to stop this".

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Graywolf.260]

Maybe Erdogan and the Turkish sovereign wealth fund took a clue from the Quataris and invested in Jared’s little underwater project at 666.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Hi,

We have always turned our backs on the Kurds once we were finished with what we wanted....it would be a surprise to everyone IF we did not.

Turkey running wild with Iran while we have Nuks at the base there is outrageous though.
The amount of money and Defense industry aide we provide to Turkey just for base utilization is crazy.
Especially considering Poland has already agreed to build us a base for FREE and not charge us to utilize it IF we pulled base out of Turkey and put in Poland.

Use this to vote Turkey out of NATO and reason to pull our Nuks and base from Turkey. Transition everything to Poland.

Sincerely,
Theis

Hi,

This is going to be very interesting to see how the DoS and DDTC handle this situation; along with the USA Defense companies that have not only sold equipment to Turkey under DoS/DDTC Foreign Military Sale program but also transferred technology to Turkish companies to manufacturer the equipment under Joint Ventures in Turkey.

Under FMS guidelines Turkey cannot utilize any of that purchased and/or manufactured equipment with Iran (Or any other sanctioned country) as their "partner".
In Turkey case this primarily would be the F16, Blackhawk and the C130. There are some other equipment but this is the larger and more expensive type equipment.
The joint venture companies that have been formed in Turkey with General Dynamics, Lockheed, and Sikorsky are all at risk of DoS/DDTC forcing them closed. I can assure you those companies are in contact with their Turkish partners saying "You are going to loose millions if you cannot get your Gov to stop this".

Sincerely,
Theis

Not to step on your international knowledge toes. There is this little issue.
Some days I think our government likes sucking on the wrong end of a shotgun.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

link is good don't know why it says that.

Turkey F-35 Industrial Participation | F-35 Lightning II

The official website of the F-35 Lightning II. The Joint Strike Fighter is the next generation fighter to support the US Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, United Kingdom and defense partners in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, and Turkey.

www.f35.com

Turkey's AyesaÅ sole supplier of 2 key F-35 components

While U.S. President Donald Trump has decided to delay delivery of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets to Turkey, it is well worth remembering that Turkish firm...

www.dailysabah.com

Seriously, we are our own worst enemy.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well luckily for me, my knowledge toes know to wear steel toe safety boots

Whats ironic is that the information you linked is why we (USA) are setting up Joint Venture(s) in UAE and Saudia for those exact parts, along with tooling up for complete modernization of the F22 lolol.

Trading one shotgun barrel for potentially another barrel or what???
We are always our worst enemy, hands down!!!
They are only allowed to manufacturer those parts because DoS/DDTC approved to allow the subject matter and technical packages to be exported through a transfer venture because it is cheaper to manufacturer there...but remember......we have Gov that says they are bringing manufacturing back to the USA .


EDITED TO ADD:
NATO could pull the Secret Facility Security Clearance from Ayesas and just like that Ayesas can have no part or technical packages for anything related to the F35.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[pmclaine]

Hi,

Well luckily for me, my knowledge toes know to wear steel toe safety boots

Whats ironic is that the information you linked is why we (USA) are setting up Joint Venture(s) in UAE and Saudia for those exact parts, along with tooling up for complete modernization of the F22 lolol.

Trading one shotgun barrel for potentially another barrel or what???
We are always our worst enemy, hands down!!!
They are only allowed to manufacturer those parts because DoS/DDTC approved to allow the subject matter and technical packages to be exported through a transfer venture because it is cheaper to manufacturer there...but remember......we have Gov that says they are bringing manufacturing back to the USA .


EDITED TO ADD:
NATO could pull the Secret Facility Security Clearance from Ayesas and just like that Ayesas can have no part or technical packages for anything related to the F35.

Sincerely,
Theis

My daughter does gymnastics in an area found the country over.

One of those ugly commercial compounds comprised of large steel framed/sided one, two story, max "warehouse" buildings.

The huge floor space buildings are subdivided according to the renters needs/space requirements.

Lately I see these places are being rented out for use as baseball training centers with netted batting cages. My sons baseball team uses one for winter practice, rent for a "bay" being about $50 an hour.

Anyway as I drive my daughter to gymnastics I note that in that little complex there are at least three shops with a sign marked "machining", all independent and with names like "Eastern Mass Machining" or "Micro Precision Machining".

This morning I was thinking on this and wondering how I could bring it up on the Hide because the number of the shops in one small space interested me and I was kind of thinking if I was an enemy of the country Id want to take that out as each shop represents an arms industry.

Even more so I think this as the other day I drove her there it was warm and one shop had its door open for fresh air and the place was packed with CNC machines.

When I see a storefront marked "Machine Shop" it catches my eye because I have so much respect for what guys that can run a mill/lathe can do.

I get it. "We are the World" song here. We will love each other if we all build our weapons together but with the capacity and ability we have here why is anything built overseas?

Add to that the danger of someone deciding to mess with or cut us off from our critical materials its crazy.

Sorry for the long post but Ive been pondering those machine shops awhile.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

My daughter does gymnastics in an area found the country over.

One of those ugly commercial compunds comprised of large steel framed/sided one, two story, max "warehouse" buildings.

The huge floorspace buildings are subdivided according to the renters needs/space requirements.

Lately I see these places are being rented out for use as baseball training centers with netted batting cages. My sons baseball team uses it for winter practice, rent for a "bay" being about $50 an hour.

Anyway as I drive my daughter to gymnastics I note that in that little complex there are at least three shops with a sign marked "machining" all independent and with names like "Eastern Mass Machining" or "Micro Precision Machining".

This morning I was thinking on this and wondering how I could bring it up on the Hide because the number of the shops in one small space interested me and I was kind of thinking if I was an enemy of the country Id want to take that out as each shop represents an arms industry.

Even more so I think this as the other day I drove her there it was warm and one shop had its door open for fresh air and the place was packed with CNC machines.

When I see a storefront marked "Machine Shop" it catches my eye because I have so much respect for what guys that can run a mill/lathe can do.

I get it. "We are the World" song here. We will love each other if we all build our weapons together but with the capacity and ability we have here why is anything built overseas?

Add to that the danger of someone deciding to mess with our cut us off from our critical materials its crazy.

Sorry for the long post but Ive been pondering those machine shops awhile.

Simple. Greed. Companies would rather pay a pittance for machining and manufacturing over seas and keep the big gov contract profits at maximum for as few people as they can vs having to pay higher wages for machinists and manufacturing here stateside plus pay higher taxes here. If we ever saw in our time full DOD tech and manufacturing returned here stateside we would see a booming economy again, that's for sure.

 

[pmclaine]

Simple. Greed. Companies would rather pay a pittance for machining and manufacturing over seas and keep the big gov contract profits at maximum for as few people as they can vs having to pay higher wages for machinists and manufacturing here stateside plus pay higher taxes here. If we ever saw in our time full DOD tech and manufacturing returned here stateside we would see a booming economy again, that's for sure.

I get it.

We are discussing it here......

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tool-talk-—-vises.6931731/#post-7614794

Dont leave out our regulation, not all of which is bad, that costs our manufacturer and hurts their ability to compete.

If we regulate it here we should demand imports build to our standard or pay a fine (tariff) equal to the cost our manufacturer suffer.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The reason we have USA Defense companies manufacturing products overseas can in laymens terms be "Money" but if we dig deeper into the why and hows it gets pretty complicated in regards to International commerce sanctions/endorsements, political muscle/weakness, purchasing countries mandates/requirements, etc etc.

But it really all starts out with the purchasing country being smarter at International business negotiations than us (USA).
For example:

The Saudi arms deal that Trump and such patted themselves on the back for in 2017 was approved through DDTC and Congress for 110 Billion USD. Which on the outside you think, Holy shit..great for the USA Defense companies. BUT on the inside of the deal, only about 18 Billion USD was negotiated for actual hard product. The rest of the billions was for technology transfer and manufacturing license agreements aka Joint Ventures between said USA companies and Saudi Military Industries Company.

So that starts the domino effect....Per the negotiated "Deal" Lockheed for example partnered with SMIC to start a new company in Saudi which will be set up for F22 modernization along with airframe parts for the F35. Lockheed owns 49% and SMIC owns 51%. Once full production is up you can bet your last dollar that Lockheed in USA will be importing most of the F22 parts from the Saudi manufacturing facility due to lower cost.

Edited To Add:
And when you add in the fact that these countries are providing basically completely tax free operations it makes it even easier for USA companies to WANT to do Joint Ventures.
No import tax
No export tax
No property tax
No income tax
No capital gains tax

And then most International Gov contracts have stipulations on manufacturer must setup facility there.
For example:
India is seeking 15000 new 338LM sniper rifles. Stipulation is the company must setup a Joint Venture company in India to manufacture them.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Maggot]

The Turks? Dont bend over in the shower.

1 What is the Armenian Genocide or the 1915 genocide?
The events of World War I in the Ottoman Empire, where approximately two million Christian inhabitants were killed or disappeared traceless, are usually described as the 1915 genocide or the Armenian genocide since the Armenians constituted up to 1.5 million of these victims. The genocide practically emptied the Ottoman Empire and current Turkey from its Christian population, leaving an almost entirely Muslim/Turkish Turkey. Genocide is considered to have been intended as a solution to the Armenian Question (see question 2), but also other minorities in the Ottoman Turkey, mainly Christian Assyrians/Syrians/Chaldeans and Greeks suffered as well (compare with the Holocaust that primarily affected Jews, but also Roma).

 

[Ravenworks]

Theis
What bothers me is how do we ( USA ), prevent our technology from transference?
I mean is it nothing more than Turkey's word that they wouldn't give it to Iran?

 

[THEIS]

Theis
What bothers me is how do we ( USA ), prevent our technology from transference?
I mean is it nothing more than Turkey's word that they wouldn't give it to Iran?

Hi,

In concept the answer to that would be yes.
But the Turkish Gov has signed "contracts" that specifically forbid any re-exportation of product and/or technology without prior DDTC approval.
The approved export license for the product and/or technology have signed End User Statements certified by the Turkish Gov stating they agree to such law.
Violating that International Traffic in Arms Regulation export permit, especially based on a Foreign Military Sale (Congress Approves those along with DoS) comes with pretty severe penalties. In Turkeys case would result in trade restrictions and economic sanctions from not only the USA but all NATO countries.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Ravenworks]

Ok, I appreciate the answer.
I just don't understand them getting into bed with Iran.
It would really be bad for us to get played just for the technology.
I could see them going the whole way with it and getting pulled in with Russia and China.
Is there enough of our stuff there that the could reverse engineer it to enable them to defeat our stuff?
They should get dinged good for just buyingbthe Russian stuff,I would imagine whore deals are being made

 

[pmclaine]

Hi,

The reason we have USA Defense companies manufacturing products overseas can in laymens terms be "Money" but if we dig deeper into the why and hows it gets pretty complicated in regards to International commerce sanctions/endorsements, political muscle/weakness, purchasing countries mandates/requirements, etc etc.

But it really all starts out with the purchasing country being smarter at International business negotiations than us (USA).
For example:

The Saudi arms deal that Trump and such patted themselves on the back for in 2017 was approved through DDTC and Congress for 110 Billion USD. Which on the outside you think, Holy shit..great for the USA Defense companies. BUT on the inside of the deal, only about 18 Billion USD was negotiated for actual hard product. The rest of the billions was for technology transfer and manufacturing license agreements aka Joint Ventures between said USA companies and Saudi Military Industries Company.

So that starts the domino effect....Per the negotiated "Deal" Lockheed for example partnered with SMIC to start a new company in Saudi which will be set up for F22 modernization along with airframe parts for the F35. Lockheed owns 49% and SMIC owns 51%. Once full production is up you can bet your last dollar that Lockheed in USA will be importing most of the F22 parts from the Saudi manufacturing facility due to lower cost.

Edited To Add:
And when you add in the fact that these countries are providing basically completely tax free operations it makes it even easier for USA companies to WANT to do Joint Ventures.
No import tax
No export tax
No property tax
No income tax
No capital gains tax

And then most International Gov contracts have stipulations on manufacturer must setup facility there.
For example:
India is seeking 15000 new 338LM sniper rifles. Stipulation is the company must setup a Joint Venture company in India to manufacture them.

Sincerely,
Theis

And its due to these joint ventures that instead of fighting enemies that build weapons using leather belt lathes run by water we will be facing some serious weaponry.

Awesome.

Take my gun away but ensure every third world tin pot dictator can arm up his people.

 

[Kir]

It's all about the oil...it's always about the oil. The Kurds are sitting on a supply of oil deposits and Turkey wants them. The U.S. is only backing the Kurds so they can have access to them.

 

[Ravenworks]

It's all about the oil...it's always about the oil. The Kurds are sitting on a supply of oil deposits and Turkey wants them. The U.S. is only backing the Kurds so they can have access to them.

You do realize that the oil production from Ohio and Pennsylvania makes the oil from overseas a non-issue?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@pmclaine
You mean Abu Dhabi machine shops like this one, making parts for the Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet...

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[pmclaine]

Hi,

@pmclaine
You mean Abu Dhabi machine shops like this one, making parts for the Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet...
View attachment 7046146

Sincerely,
Theis

Much bigger operation there. Do they 3D print the entire fuselage?

I thought machinists were a dying breed around here sadly.

Seeing three or four so closely located surprised me.

Machines looked like Haas mills/lathes.

Computer programming is probably the key skill not running a carbide cutting tool.

 

[uffduh]

You do realize that the oil production from Ohio and Pennsylvania makes the oil from overseas a non-issue?

Save for the fact that the US refining complex wasn’t designed to run it in the gulf coast...at least not to the maximum level of efficiency or profitability...neither of which needs to be a concern in an emergency, but will be for the day to day.

 

[Kir]

You do realize that the oil production from Ohio and Pennsylvania makes the oil from overseas a non-issue?

That is only a recent development, but that was the reason the U.S. was protecting the Kurds. TBD if Donald will continue to do so...

 

[Ravenworks]

Save for the fact that the US refining complex wasn’t designed to run it in the gulf coast...at least not to the maximum level of efficiency or profitability...neither of which needs to be a concern in an emergency, but will be for the day to day.

Funny, Marathon built 2 new units to crack the oil and starting in the spring a new $54 Billion unit is being built in southern Ohio.
So how relevant is their oil again?
In the last 5 years 2 major pipelines in Ohio alone have been completed to bring products to market.

 

[Ravenworks]

That is only a recent development, but that was the reason the U.S. was protecting the Kurds. TBD if Donald will continue to do so...

Pennsylvania oil production has been online for 9 years,oil has nothing to do with it.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Oil is the answer when you rely on MSM 60 second opinion segments of a 10k page book.

Geo-economics is more diverse than "Oil" will be any day.
Do you think products in USA stores would remain same price IF shipping company were not allowed to use the Suez Canal?
How do you think we "maintain" the privilege of utilizing the Suez Canal?
Do you think products in USA stores would remain same price IF the Strait of Gibraltar were not operated by an "Ally?

Geo-politics is even bigger than Geo-economics.
We see people say all the time...just leave the "Insert Area Here" and let them handle their own problems as if it does not affect us in the USA.
That is crazy because it directly affects us in more ways than "Oil".
What happens to USA Aerospace and Defense Sector when China stops selling us Titanium? Its not like Russia is going to fill the allocation requirements.
How much does a domestic airfare go up when Boeing is forced to pay India prices for titanium for airframes or when Boeing drastically reduces its production numbers because Kazakhstan can only send us x amount of Titanium?

List goes on and on and on and on.......

IF "OIL" was the answer to all our International situation then we would just invade Azerbaijan and never worry about Middle East oil again, ever!! There "reported" numbers are accepted in the industry as way way low

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[cornhusker86]

Much bigger operation there. Do they 3D print the entire fuselage?

I thought machinists were a dying breed around here sadly.

Seeing three or four so closely located surprised me.

Machines looked like Haas mills/lathes.

Computer programming is probably the key skill not running a carbide cutting tool.

These days most " machinists " are used in set-up roles. The bulk of employees in a production situation are machine operators. Two very different skill sets. Even the programing is usually handled by one or two people.

The shop I used to work in went from roughly 25 machinists on the production floor to 5. At the same time the company grew and now has over 40 employees on the floor. Lean manufacturing was the reason. They don't NEED skilled employees like they used to. At least that's the theory. When they no longer have real machinists to set-up the machines and make prototype parts, they will be fucked.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

It's quite likely that I'm missing the boat and/or missing the point, but... I still prefer the manual "hands on" of a manual lathe and milling machine. I'm not saying that it's the 'right' way, just that it is definitely satisfying when the part one is making, is completed. And is perfect in every way.

Production machining now, that's where robots come in, I guess.

 

[Ravenworks]

These days most " machinists " are used in set-up roles. The bulk of employees in a production situation are machine operators. Two very different skill sets. Even the programing is usually handled by one or two people.

The shop I used to work in went from roughly 25 machinists on the production floor to 5. At the same time the company grew and now has over 40 employees on the floor. Lean manufacturing was the reason. They don't NEED skilled employees like they used to. At least that's the theory. When they no longer have real machinists to set-up the machines and make prototype parts, they will be fucked.

When I was stationed in Norway I found something that they did that was very impressive.
If the unit needed a part,they made it,on the spot from blueprints.
This was long before computers.
I thought it was pretty cool at the time the unit had blueprints for anything the unit needed that could be machined.
As you guy's said, it's more than oil.