• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

L

locolife

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 30, 2010
65
0
57
Southeast Florida
Before I give up completely on the idea of using a Dillon powder drop for precision loading I wanted to see what the consensus was on how precise...is precise enough. Dillon and others say that .3 is close enough with slow burning stick powders.

I am using a Dillon powder drop for Varget and H1000 and am getting +/- .3 grain consistency using many of the recommended techniques for improving thier powder measures. Is that close enough or should I be using a chargemaster or hand trickle?

What say ye RKI's?
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

It really depends on how well you shoot and the distance you want to 'precision' shoot over. For 200 or 300 yards, it is probably 'good enough'. If you are working for master scores and higher and shooting at 600 yards, it is probably not good enough.. in my opinion. When you say +/-.3, that means that you have a possible .6 grain difference between sucessive shots. Assuming your skill level is there, you would definately notice that. Have you polished the powder drop to maximize its accuracy potential?
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

With a total 0.6GN variation you will notice that even at 100. I measure every charge for anything I want to be accurate.

If I am loading mass quantity plinking ammo than I do not worry about that little a variation. I am not looking for sub moa with this type ammo.

It all depends on your intended purpose for that ammo IMO.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

if you want to use the full progressive setup, I would sacrifice the advantages of the stick powder for the consistent charges thrown by 2520 (varget)
and magpro, ramshot magnum (h 1000)

if you need the advantages of both stick powder and precise, NO EXCEPTION, measure, yes you will have to weigh/ trickle - no matter how tweaked out you get any powder thrower there will always be some oddballs with stick powder
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

What's so hard, or so painful, about the end result being precise?

What's the advantage with mediocre?

Why not adapt and overcome the shortcomings of the system and achieve precision?

Why bother attempting to craft custom ammo that ends up being run of the mill factory quality?
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

I've developed 4 loads for my various rifles and it always amazes me how much a little bit of powder can affect things. I have also found in my 50BMG it is much more forgiving if I am off if I am off by as much as half a grain than in my 308s or 223. I believe this is due to the sheer volume of powder in each case (215gr H50BMG), a variance of a half a grain isn't much (about less than .25%). So with my smaller calibers and smaller charges (from 23.8gr for my .223 to 44-45gr for my .308s) the accuracy is much more critical.

I tried throwing powder for even my plinking loads, but my OCD always kicked in so I use an RCBS Chargemaster exclusively for all my rifles. Sure it takes longer, but it gives me peace of mind. Granted I am also not a particularly good shot and probably can't shoot good enough to really tell a difference, but charge weight and by extension barrel harmonics are variables we can control so why not?

I don't know about everyone else, but I like being the weak link in my equipment. It helps me focus as partly a guilt-trip (if I spend that much time/money in prep, I sure as hell better spend time in the execution) and partly identifying my technique weaknesses as I ultimately have no one to blame but myself. Maybe I'm just a masochist, haha.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

My experience with Varget, after and OCW development and a sampling of the Charge Weight window, is that Varget with 155 Scenars will tollerate 0.25 gr. That is +/- 0.125 gr.

My thrower throw +/- 0.25 gr, so I set it up 0.2 gr low and trickle up to my desired amount.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Well, I guess fast and precise just cant coexist when handloading...I guess I better make room on the bench for a Chargemaster.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.
Throwing my own hand loads with a little digital scale. Verifying with a 10-10.
Throwing my own hand loads with a 10-10. Verifying with a little digital scale.

I could go on if you want, you know......
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

get a chargemaster. I have a redding 3BR and a harrell and none of them work with varget. At 200 yard, .3 +/- will get your 308 bullet about .5 inch diference.

43gr varget, fc case, 175smk, 26" and 1:12 bolt action CZ550.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I guess fast and precise just cant coexist when handloading. </div></div>

It does exist, but I doubt your willing to open your mind and pocket book to get it.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

For me, I would try to make it with +/- 0.1 gr

We already spend time for hand load. So, we should do it with the best you can do.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

I think it depends on the case capacity. For a .223, it could be very significant, for a .338LM, less so.

I use the Dillon 550 and its measure. I set the charge a little heavy; enough to ensure that <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> charge will be at least on or over. I then dump the charge into a scale, pinch some out, and finger trickle some back until the charge hits my desired value. The remainder of the pinch goes back into the top of the hopper, and the corrected charge is returned to the case using a drop tube.

That's for bolt gun match loads. For semi's, especially non-match loads, I will run ten sample cases, weigh the collected charges, and correct the measure until the average individual charge weight is right.

I then run the press in progressive mode. Honestly, it can take some time to set the measure up just right; but I do it for safety, as well as accuracy, reasons. If I didn't want to be at least that close to ideal, I'd really not have a good motivation to handload.

But I also make a serious effort to load with a consistent rhythm and operate each stroke with as close to identical force as possible, to reduce operator-induced charge weight fluctuations.

In truth, I mostly make my ammo to meet match requirements.

I spent a lot of time using ball powder, W748 to be specific, as an effort to deal with alleged stick powder metering problems with my Dillon measures. The loads just wouldn't hold accuracy across real world conditions. I have since reduced my powder selection to Varget, H-4350, and H-4831SC. Using my above methods, their metering works as well as I'd ever need.

Greg
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Ok Morpheus, I'll bite...whats your "red pill" solution?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I guess fast and precise just cant coexist when handloading. </div></div>

It does exist, but I doubt your willing to open your mind and pocket book to get it. </div></div>
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Slow burnng powders are a lot more forgiving but I still like anything slower than RL19 to be within .3 of zero.
On all other powders within .1 is as good as it will get.
I throw each charge low and trickle up until my beam scale meets zero.
I haven't seen a scale yet that guarantees accuracy beyond +/- 0.1
That being said even if all my charges balance the scale to zero there can still be .2 variance between each and every charge
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok Morpheus, I'll bite...whats your "red pill" solution?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I guess fast and precise just cant coexist when handloading. </div></div>

It does exist, but I doubt your willing to open your mind and pocket book to get it. </div></div> </div></div>

that will be the Prometheus - fast and accurate - but still not as fast as the powder dispensed on a progressive
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Depends on the powder you are throwing with the Dillon. Polish the drop at the very least. I've been dropping 8208 within .3 total spread.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

"I guess fast and precise just cant coexist when handloading...I guess I better make room on the bench for a Chargemaster."

How valuable a digital powder dumpster is depends on the reloader himself. A careful and practiced user with a manual powder measure, beam scale and trickler is about as fast and fully as accurate as the electronic gimmics. Careless and/or clumsy workers greatly benefit from the various automatic devices. ??

In spite of insistant posts claming otherwise, given the uncontrollable differences in individual cases and individual primers and the effects of ambient temperature on powder burn rate, I question that even small cases will notice powder charge variations inside +/- .15 gr, usually more than that. And the unnoticeable tolerance variation increases with increased case capacity.

A poorly choosen reload can be a bit more sensitive to small differences in both charge weight and seating depth tho.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

No thanks on the Prometheus. To me the cost to benefit ratio is not worth the high price tag when competing products are just as accurate and slightly slower. Ultimately, I'm not manufacturing bullets for sale and dont need the process to be blindingly fast. If I cant get the speed and accuracy from the Dillon powder drop I'll go the Chargemaster route and move at a slower pace.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Instead of dumping all that coin on a charge master why not just switch to a ball powder?
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No thanks on the Prometheus. To me the cost to benefit ratio is not worth the high price tag when competing products are just as accurate and slightly slower. Ultimately, I'm not manufacturing bullets for sale and dont need the process to be blindingly fast. If I cant get the speed and accuracy from the Dillon powder drop I'll go the Chargemaster route and move at a slower pace. </div></div>

You read the opinions of those with closed minds, NOTHING is even close to the speed\accuracy of the Gen2, mine will be on top of of a Dillon next year.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Since I would have to buy another Dillon powder measure, toolhead, magnum powder bar and new powder...the chargemaster is actually more economical. Especially with the current rebate. Plus, Varget and H1000 are 'supposedly' more consistent powders.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

I've always gotten excellent results from AA2520 for .308 and it meters like water.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Just to keep things fun here, I'm going to point out that switching to a ball powder to reduce charge weight variations means the default use of a double based powder.

Which are FAR more tempereature sensitive than the vast majority of those single based extruded powders you're just excluded from your consideration.

Kinda like paying your Visa bill with your Mastercard, you haven't soleved a problem; you've just traded it for another.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to keep things fun here, I'm going to point out that switching to a ball powder to reduce charge weight variations means the default use of a double based powder.

Which are FAR more tempereature sensitive than the vast majority of those single based extruded powders you're just excluded from your consideration.

Kinda like paying your Visa bill with your Mastercard, you haven't soleved a problem; you've just traded it for another. </div></div>

Agreed,
You conviently ommitted the fact that a ball powder of precisely the same charge weight exhibits no more variation than a more desirable powder whose charge weight is considerably less consistent.
I've also had different lots of more desirable powders exhibit more flucuation in FPS than ball powder.
Ball powder pluses when used throug a progressive:
Lot to lot consistency and better flow characteristics through a powder measure.
Just trying to keep it fun
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Afraid you lost me on how lot to lot consistency improves in ball powders merely by using them in a powder measure?
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

I've worked up a load with varget pushing a 175gr SMK at 2700fps.
Needed new powder so picked up a pound of varget...different lot number. 1.7gr increase in powder charge to achieve the same results.
My 2520 load for 168 SMK hasn't changed in 20 years.
Lot to lot consistency is paramount for me when I'm working up loads.
I've never loaded on a progressive but if I did I would certainly use ball powder simply to reduce the variable of charge weight.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

You've been fortunate indeed. Ball powder is subject to the same type of lot to lot variation as single based extruded powders. Seen (and used) plenty that had to be adjusted for lot to lot variations to keep pressure and velocity levels the same as previous lots. In those instances, I was restricted to using a particular ball powder (WC-750), used it for many years and went through a good number of lots during that time frame. Looking back through my notes, I found variations in charge weights similar to what you're cited with Varget.

It's the nature of the beast, and <span style="text-decoration: underline">no</span> powder is immune to such variation. As for the charge weight variation caused by extruded tubulars, it's not the problem that many think it is, at least in a very large percentage of applications. Check out Hatcher's Notebook, pp. 312-314 for a complete discussion of this situation, based on large scale ammo production.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Agreed about charge weights. The situations where I've already exceeded max published data with a given powder to get the desired velocity/accuracy it becomes more critical.
The only time I would attempt it through a progressive is with a smooth metering powder.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Locolife</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No thanks on the Prometheus. To me the cost to benefit ratio is not worth the high price tag when competing products are just as accurate and slightly slower. Ultimately, I'm not manufacturing bullets for sale and dont need the process to be blindingly fast. If I cant get the speed and accuracy from the Dillon powder drop I'll go the Chargemaster route and move at a slower pace. </div></div>

You read the opinions of those with closed minds, NOTHING is even close to the speed\accuracy of the Gen2, mine will be on top of of a Dillon next year.</div></div>

Elpers has his on top of a Dillon right? I heard he can really crank out some ammo!
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

He can do over 300 rounds a hour of precision rifle ammo.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

I load on a S1050. I have tried Varget, IMR 4895, IMR 4064, RL19 for 30-06. Ive done all the powder drop mods. I wasnt getting consistent drops.

I asked mysel how much 30-06 do I really want to shoot in a session figuring cost/fatigue/diminishing quality of trigger time. 100 rounds is a big day for me. Much more I just start flinging rounds down range. 60 to 70 rounds is probably ideal.

I decided my powder drops being consistent was important to me. I dont check runout, obsess over primer pockets or try to do anything bench rest guys do. I just concentrate on consistent powder drops.

I set my drop to just below my target measure and than I pull the case, trickle to desired charge, and put it back into the plate. after I put my kids to bed in about an hour I can go from completely clean machine to completely clean machine and have 30 perfectly measured rounds. 2 nights work I have a range day. I think the slow process is much more enjoyable than "I must make rounds, I must make rounds, I must make rounds"

The beauty of the progressive is for pistol ammo. I can crank out buckets of .45 ACP and .38 wadcutter. For rifle I want to take a little more time.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Just my 2 cents if i am going to shoot them 1 at a time i meter them and trickle 1 at a time.If i am going to shoot semi in an AR15 i drop and seat.Reloading to me is all about consistantcy and making rounds shoot in a single rifle.That being said you can find magic loads that will shoot in most rifles.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

FWIW I use h1000 in a 300 WM and 208gr Amax I can get away with .3-4 gr before groups start opening up beyond .75 MOA. That wont help you win a ELR match but hunting big game inside 300 yards no worries.

I don't sort case or bullets by weight I use CCI BR2 primers I use the Hornady auto powder measure verify and re calibrating every ten rounds. This net a load that is a tad over 1/4 MOA

Something small like 308 or 223 I probably cant get away with "taking it easy"

now .223 will be shot out of my home defense AR so really I will work up an OCW load and run it through a progressive.

.308 will be an adventure.

I have often wondered what is more important, consistent volume/consistent weight. That is The exact number of kernels of powder vs the exact weight of powder? One would hope if one number was precise the other would be as well.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

When I first got into reloading (a whole 2 years ago) I started with Varget for my .223. after 6 months of pulling my hair out and trying every tip/trick in the book to make that damn powder meter better (i too was getting about +/- .3gr a pull) i switched to XBR and now get +/- .1gr at worse. RE15 also meters really nice. I stil loccationally use Varget, but when I do, its by hand.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this was on a 550B and I also *now* love the shit out the UniqueTek Micrometer
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

UPDATE: I got the ChargeMaster in the mail today and love it. I already did the speed and straw mods and although it isn't as fast as using the Dillon powder drop, its not bad at all. If anything, it gives me a few seconds to give the brass a final QC check. I fitted a funnel to the top of the Dillon powder die and got several powder pans so one is always on the machine while one is being poured.
 
Re: Is +/- .3 close enough for stick powders?

Big Pimp'n!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You read the opinions of those with closed minds, NOTHING is even close to the speed\accuracy of the Gen2,<span style="font-weight: bold">mine will be on top of of a Dillon next year.</span></div></div>
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
Correlation between velocity, barrel length and powder burn speed
Replies
21
Views
597
grayfox72
G
W
Powder recommendations for 55 grain Hornady CX in 223/556
Replies
6
Views
675
secondofangle2
secondofangle2
A
Thrown H4831sc
Replies
2
Views
252
ubettcha
ubettcha
RackSqueezeBang
Trouble Shoot Sudden POI Drop
Replies
10
Views
233
Slides
Slides
Danilla_Ice
Ruger M77 Mark 2 30.06 blew up in my face today - I just now see why
Replies
47
Views
3K
RegionRat
R
Top Bottom
Back