Rifle Scopes  Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

razerwire

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Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

You should sell the scope and take up another hobby. To see for myself I also took out my rifles with 5-25 s&b scopes and first aimed at words prevost on my motorhome and then at emblem on front of escalade and all scopes worked as should. Just like Dark Horse said. When I get my 3-12x50 back from s&b I will check it also. Might be interested in scope when you put up for sale.
 

CCCP2k

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Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razerwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You should sell the scope and take up another hobby. To see for myself I also took out my rifles with 5-25 s&b scopes and first aimed at words prevost on my motorhome and then at emblem on front of escalade and all scopes worked as should. Just like Dark Horse said. When I get my 3-12x50 back from s&b I will check it also. Might be interested in scope when you put up for sale. </div></div>

Thank you for your tests. As for selling the scope, there is no need for me to do so. As I said before, this is a minor surprise. Maybe indeed I have a faulty one. I will check with S&B on Monday and see what they have to say.

Why would you suggest me to take another hobby? I did not ask for advice on how to spend my free time. I may also give you an advice in return: stop giving useless advises.
 

Yasherka

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fng, and others, please don't feed the troll. He doesn't care what anyone writes. He types to amuse himself. He will get bored stiring the shit and go away eventually or will do something to make himself go away. </div></div>

    Rob, it's obvious he's just building towards the 100 mark.
     

    finefire

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fng, and others, please don't feed the troll. He doesn't care what anyone writes. He types to amuse himself. He will get bored stiring the shit and go away eventually or will do something to make himself go away. </div></div>

    Rob, it's obvious he's just building towards the 100 mark.</div></div>

    Send it back...or get your posts to 100, then sell it here.
     

    0425440

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    Yep the fucking 100 post comments. This place has a wealth of valuable information.
     

    den42

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    why dont you simply just call schmidt and bender customer service and see what they have to say about it, im sure there is somebody there can talk slow and in small words for you to understand, maybe you could even run the Toyota or Honda idea by them and see what they say..
     

    Mute

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I already gave you an answer. Just because you don't have see the need doesn't mean someone else doesn't. All you're doing is making silly assumptions. </div></div>

    Sorry man. I have no idea what question are you answering. Again, why would you dial 5x if 7x gives you the same field of view? Simple like that. "Engaging something when your are doing something" will not work here. We need explanation and advice which works. Do you imply you are more likely to hit your target if it looks smaller to you? It does not make any sense to me. Bigger is better. More real estate in your sight picture - this what you really want at closer distance. I think it's so basic so nobody would ever discuss it. </div></div>

    In other words, your answer is no, you don't have the experience and therefore are making shit up to justify your pitiful postings as something worth discussing. Gotcha.
     

    RTO

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    Anal=collector
    collector=safe queen
    safe queen=not using for intended purpose

    Those of us that own S&B's love them and dont give a shit. Take them out and shoot it. Go to a few matches and engage targets from 5 to 1200 yards. I'm pretty certain if you shot it and used it for its intended purposes you would have your questions answered. Try shooting some local matches where your gear gets put to the test and you depend on reliability and repeatability as well as the ability to zoom in and out and focus at any power at any distance and you will appreciate the quality of this scope and not have anything left to gripe about.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fng, and others, please don't feed the troll. He doesn't care what anyone writes. He types to amuse himself. He will get bored stiring the shit and go away eventually or will do something to make himself go away. </div></div>

    Rob, it's obvious he's just building towards the 100 mark. </div></div>

    I swear to God I will never sell anything on this forum. Catch me on this and I give you 1000$. I am from Canada if you have not noticed. How in hell I will get all certificates to export ITAR controlled product? Jeezzzz....

    This 100 mark is ridiculous. I have been accused before. Are you serious? One can get it by posting lol's here and there without any noticing. I will stop posting at 99 for a long while to let you digest what I am talking about.

    Are you appealing to Rob? Quite interesting...
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    OK, here is a video I shot for the sake of the discussion. Sorry for the quality and lame commentary but I guess it should do.

    http://youtu.be/R3HjL7ueZgY

    Disclaimer: I am no pro or even close to it. Shooting is my hobby, not a profession. This video is not an advice or anything else. It's just a product of my boredom.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DennisHoward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why dont you simply just call schmidt and bender customer service and see what they have to say about it, im sure there is somebody there can talk slow and in small words for you to understand, maybe you could even run the Toyota or Honda idea by them and see what they say.. </div></div>

    I really do not care. The scope works for its intended purpose just fine. They know what they did better than me. Why should I bother? Too lazy for it.
     

    lanwickum

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    You sound like a huterite in the video. What is the accent?

    Your complaint is fairly common in many scopes. I believe a USO canadian I had did the same. My IOR 3-18 does it from 3-4x. My S&B 5-25 does the same. My premier 3-15x does not do this.

    Anyone else want to add to this very informative list?
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    The S&B page fully discloses FOV at 5x and 25x. The magnification is 5x on on the bottom and 25x on the top. Nobody has "cheated". The tunneling effect is a side-effect of the design and it is not unique. I've had several Leupolds do the same (8.5-25x and 6-18x) as well as countless cheaper scopes. Get over it an spend your time shooting rather than bitching that you were "cheated". Bottom line, they disclose FOV and actual magnification. Get over it.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound like a huterite in the video. What is the accent?

    Your complaint is fairly common in many scopes. I believe a USO canadian I had did the same. My IOR 3-18 does it from 3-4x. My S&B 5-25 does the same. My premier 3-15x does not do this.

    Anyone else want to add to this very informative list? </div></div>

    LOL, I had to look-up "huterite" on the NET. The accent is Russian (not quite ordinary though).

    I think some manufactures do it to trick their competition. From what I read there are technical difficulties associated with variable magnification scopes. Higher magnification on high end yields to smaller field of view and higher magnification on low end. Here are few competitor models:

    Nightforce 5.5x22
    Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 8.5-25x
    Hensoldt ZF 6-24x56

    On the paper S&B 5x25 beats them all in terms of lower magnification. It also gives wider range. But the trick is that S&B gives it maximum field of view at 7x, so I would call it effectively 7x25. Still good but not that impressive. Interesting detail that according to the specs Nightforce 5.5x22 has 5.3 meters field of view at 5.5. This is exactly the number S&B gives as at lower end. I wounder if NF performed the same trick.

    Now, there is a little twist to the story. If you put togeter S&B and NF specs and replace 5 with 7 for S&B you will get following:
    1. NF 5.3m @ 5.5x
    2. S&B 5.3m @ 7x

    S&B WINS!!! Ironic, isn't it?

    It becomes even more ironic when you take into account that S&B is a front focal scope. The reticle becomes harder to see at lower zoom. This is a trade-off one must accept for maintaining proportions. Now you end up with smaller reticle and sight picture at 5x!!! So what is the point of 5-7x on this scope? I see none. In my opinion if they stopped at 7 the would have better device: cranking the magnification all the way down would bring you to a luxury of 5.3 meters at 7x. They would still be very impressive against the competition and avoid all this bitching.

    Now I almost spent my 99 post limit. I will leave remaining 2 posts as reserve and take good advice to stop bitching and go shooting

    CCCP2K is out

    PS. The Internet is information garbage pile, use it on your own risk

     

    oldfatguy

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?


    <span style="color: #FF0000">I will stop posting at 99 for a long while to let you digest what I am talking about.</span>

    Is that a promise?

    As far as digesting what you are talking about; this low power tunneling on the S&B PMII is nothing new to virtually anyone but you and has been posted here time and time again.

    OFG
     

    19Scout77

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    If you really want to observe the tunnelling effect, you should look at it from the objective end, under recoil, from about 18" away.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really want to observe the tunnelling effect, you should look at it from the objective end, under recoil, from about 18" away. </div></div>

    Good point. I even spend my reserve post on it. I did not even get it at first reading :) But we are not talking about tunneling here.
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    Either you're and idiot or trying to be deceptive as the static FOV as magnification decreases from 7x to 5x is tunneling. End of story. Somehow you didn't respond to my other post that clears up any "lies" or "cheating" from S&B on your part. Hit your 99 and go chase a dog.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    Here is the last one. I will ignore the insults from anonymous people. One thing I can not understand. Why many people take any critics to a device as personal insult? Common guys, it's just a piece of metal and glass. It has to be used properly by knowing it's abilities. That is it .

    Here is another idiot theory. Maybe S&B thought that tunneled 5x image would be easier to find under rush and stress than otherwise perfect 7x? It looks to me it really is.

    The reason I am bugging you folks instead of S&B is because I do not want to offend the company with accusations I am not quite sure about.

    Please answer the question, why would anyone need smaller magnification with same field of view? Just for the sake of my education. Please.
     

    Hellbender

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Please answer the question, why would anyone need smaller magnification with same field of view? Just for the sake of my education. Please. </div></div>

    Study the phrase "exit pupil" and look up the multiple advantages of a larger size, when needed. Advantages that may not be apparent unless used with auxiliary equipment.

    Not all users have the limited requirements that you(or I) do.
     

    CCCP2k

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    Re: Is Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x true 5-25X?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Please answer the question, why would anyone need smaller magnification with same field of view? Just for the sake of my education. Please. </div></div>

    Study the phrase "exit pupil" and look up the multiple advantages of a larger size, when needed. Advantages that may not be apparent unless used with auxiliary equipment.

    Not all users have the limited requirements that you(or I) do. </div></div>

    I think that is it!!! Thank you very much.
    It means you are partially agree with my idiot theory of easier to find the image.

    "Auxiliary equipment" also makes total sense. I have not seen any for obvious reasons but can easily imagine what are you talking about.

    Now we can close this nonsense arguing and thank you again.
     

    NevadaZielmeister

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    I think S&B cheated here: (7-5)/5*100 = 40%. I would call it 7-25. The reason is that from 5x to approximately 7x the field of view remains the same. The sight picture just gets smaller towards to 5x.

    There is nothing like a Russian living in Canada commenting on an American forum website about a German Optic with a Japanese video camera. I love this world. Thank you for this review and video post. Good info to watch.
     

    scudzuki

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    When I see a scope that tunnels, I consider its lowest useful magnification the setting right before the viewable area starts to decrease (tunneling appear).

    I do not decrease the magnification because I want objects to appear smaller.

    I decrease magnification to increase FOV.

    I always want the most magnification available for the FOV I require.

    IMHO the PMII 5-25x is a 7-25x, and the DMR is a 4-21x.

    IMHO the engineers who design these optics must think that the consumer is stupid and will not notice that they designed the optic with a mag range that looks good in sales literature but fails to increase the functionality.

    Joe
     
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    Surgeon_Shooter

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    I got my 5x25 S&B and noticed this. I simply said "hmmm o well it don't make a shit to me because I'm not using 5-7x" buuuut, as we all know a couple x through night vision means a lot. I wonder if I'm losing a little performance from this with night vision?
     

    vivo

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you should send your scope back. Just to amuse myself I pulled my rifle out to confirm your claim. Picking a screw on a hinge approximately 25 ft from the scope I dialed down to 5x and then up to 7x. The screw became easier to see at 7x and I could see less of the perimeter around it as I dialed up. My magnification increased and field of view shrank, exactly the way it was supposed to. </div></div>

    Now we are talking. Can anybody else verify the same behavior?
    Again, for the test to be proper it's very important to see shrinking of the visible area while going from 5x to 7x. You should see reverse when going from 7 to 5 (area should become bigger)

    The problem we have here in Canada that you can not go to a store and check out this kind of stuff before buying. I have not seen any S&B on my range. People buy less expensive stuff, mostly hunting scopes. We have to order them and wait for several months before scope arrives. I did not want to bug S&B with this. I have already complained about shadowing which turned out to be deliberate trade-off rather than defect. So I decided to ask the community first.

    On behalf of all Canadians on this site and in the shooting world, please don't lump us all in with CCCP. BTW he is full of shit in this quote(among others), we have dealers across Canada selling high end gear and people buying it up as fast as it hits the shelves. I myself have owned NF and USO and currently own S&B and Premier, all purchased here in Canada. I think I know who he is from another website and yes, he is a TROLL.
     

    CCCP2k

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    On behalf of all Canadians on this site and in the shooting world, please don't lump us all in with CCCP. BTW he is full of shit in this quote(among others), we have dealers across Canada selling high end gear and people buying it up as fast as it hits the shelves. I myself have owned NF and USO and currently own S&B and Premier, all purchased here in Canada. I think I know who he is from another website and yes, he is a TROLL.

    What do you have on the shelf right now? I will get S&B 3-20x50 with H59 reticle for 3300 CAD + tax and S&H from you, not Wolverine. But you have to ship it fast.
    If you call me names then I may allow myself to classify your appeal as no more as "dealer squealing". Lot of eaueaeeeees :)

    My apologies to everybody. I did not mean to change the technical nature of this thread. It just this TROLL business started to annoy me. Common gents, we are not kids. Help the newbies like me out, they are going to appreciate this. Let's salesmen do their business somewhere else. Equipment Exchange for example is a good place to sell their stuff if the price is right.
     
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    CCCP2k

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    It has been a while since I read the thread and was surprised that it's still alive. There is one little thing about field of view and magnification relationship I have noticed lately. I thought it would be a good idea to share the info so you can mock me again :)
    On serious note, please take look at the numbers in the first post.

    Do they correspond to your observations?
     

    delixe

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do a search. Topic has been beat to death here about the tunneling from 5-7x. Most all who actually use the optic find it a non issue and just something to argue about on the Internet. </div></div>
    Hi Rob, here we are again :)

    I am not saying tunneling is an issue. I am asking about lower magnification with same field of view. What's the point of it?

    Looks good on the box? Hoping no one will notice?
    Personally, I decrease magnification to increase FOV, and any decrease in magnification without a corresponding increase in FOV is useless IMHO.
    I agree the 5-25 is really a 7-25, but who wants to admit to a 3.5x erector ratio on a $3300 tactical scope?
     

    ptosis

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    What about the new information released with the current Prescisionrifleblog research? According to the test on some high scopes, the 5-25x56 S&B is coming up SHORT on high magnification. If this is true than users are getting a 7-22.4 zoom out of the S&B. Link below explains the results and also how the data was achieved.

    Tactical Scopes: Optical Performance Field Test Results ? Part 2 | PrecisionRifleBlog.com

    The method to measure magnification in PrecisionRifleBlog.com tests is completely messed up.
    see http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-2014s-best-scope-shootout-5.html#post3199113
    The magnification and zoom range figures (and, by extension -- optical quality tests, as they rely on "true 18x" which they failed to set correctly) are invalid.
    This being said, the field of view measures for them top scopes are totally conclusive, and confirm what CCCP2k is stating above.