Nothing is more dangerous than being right when the government is wrong.
Jail for math
- Thread starter Texasflyer
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basically, he's practicing engineering without a license. and not only that, he's practicing engineering in a discipline of which he is not an expert, as he said he was a "chemical engineer" for 45 years.
Open and shut case, Johnson.
Open and shut case, Johnson.
“Trust the experts”
Cant let outsiders into the cathedral, I mean if he’s right or wrong isn’t as important as his social station, who he knows, and what he can afford.
Cant let outsiders into the cathedral, I mean if he’s right or wrong isn’t as important as his social station, who he knows, and what he can afford.
check your strawman at the door. lifelong government bureacrats need not apply, Fauci has no mechanism to ever take any liability. Engineers are the ones that take all of the liability.
if this guy is basically providing what amounts to expert witness "testimony" for a lawsuit, its not going to end well for him. These laws on the engineering profession are there to protect the public from nefarious actors who claim to be "experts" or know what they are doing to take advantage of unsuspecting people, who are just glad some one tells them what they want to here.
Think about ways this protects the general public:
Building foundations, gas line designs (transmission and service), electrical towers, water mains and irrigation mains (you want a backflow preventer with that?) and on and on.
There's more to this guys sob story than is being presented. each side in a lawsuit gets their own expert witness. Who's going to provide better detailed analysis to help an individual win his lawsuit? The civil engineer who designed and sealed public works drainage and highway projects for 30 years, or Joe Bobb Nutt, the unlicensed retired chemical engineer?
I’ll have to “circle back around” to your “straw man”
So was this dude right or wrong?
Sorry, I just don’t put much weight into “safety” especially when gov is the one saying what’s “safe”, I care much more about his history and past works vs some government stamps and badges.
so, its engineering principals, physics, and standard practices used within the industry. with stormwater, he has to make some assumptions about the rainfall data and intensities.
Here, no matter what it is, ill blow his argument out of the water:
"without calibrated and accurate rainfall data at the site in question, we cannot determine what design frequency storm event effected the structure on May 32nd, 2020. Using standard industry calculations we show, based upon a conservative runoff coefficient, that the structure was built to handle the 0.1% chance storm. Because it did not, its reasonable to assume the localized rainfall intensities that impacted the structure were much higher than the design storm. "
Wasn't the guy just giving his opinion on the subject? He wasn't operating as a licensed engineer. He did charge for his service.
I guess the next thing is that a mechanic won't be able to tell someone that they better get their brakes checked when they're stoppped at a red light or worse yet, I could be sued because I told the lady in the parking lot that her headlight is out.
When is giving advice illegal?
I guess the next thing is that a mechanic won't be able to tell someone that they better get their brakes checked when they're stoppped at a red light or worse yet, I could be sued because I told the lady in the parking lot that her headlight is out.
When is giving advice illegal?
i have no idea if this dude is right or wrong. The video shows nothing about what he claims or what his calcs say. Hydrology can have some variations in it depending on what rainfall models are used, whether he used the Rational Method or SCS Method, so on and so forth.
From what i can gather, the guy is injecting himself into everyone elses business pretending to be an engineer. Lets just say he is giving his "calcs" to some landowner who has entered into a lawsuit. What if those calcs are disputed and found to be incorrect? He's presented his calculations as having been done using sound engineering principles. Can the landowner sue him if he's wrong? Does Nutt have Errors and Omissions insurance?
How do you know what practices and data he used? Unless you saw a different video than me, the video just glanced at the facts of the technical portion and just mainly talked about his right to give his opinion.
You can do many things without a license, provided that you do not charge for your work. He probably has more than enough engineering background to accurately calculate storm water drainoff. He can advise others, but if it goes to court he has to be backed up with licensed engineers who came to the same conclusion.
It appears to me that the county made errors, residents houses were damaged, and the county wants to try to avoid lawsuits by intimidating him.
It appears to me that the county made errors, residents houses were damaged, and the county wants to try to avoid lawsuits by intimidating him.
I didn't read the thread, but I know that 99% of the Bear Pit has nothing to be worried about with regards to being accused of ever doing math.
Whether he was compensated or not doesnt really matter. He's being used as a consultant by someone who is taking engineering advice from him.
its pretty likely the state sees him as providing a service unlicensed. He's not telling someone "you need to go check on these things", he's providing engineering calcs to a 3rd party.
To use your car mechanic advice scenario, if im guaging this correctly from the short vid, this guy is telling a person that the brake job they got from the ASCE Master Mechanic was at fault because the size of the brake lines, the material of the brake pads, and the rotor size were insufficient to stop his car properly after getting in a wreck.
I was involved in a lawsuit about ten years ago. One of my techs replaced the ring and pinion in an RV and 30 months/29K miles later one of the axle shafts broke. Owner expected me to warranty. Said we did not add enough gear oil. Dana inspected the shaft and said no evidence of excessive heat cause by improper lubrication; break cause by shock or overweight tow load. Asshat filed suit and didn't bother with a lawyer.
Finally get to court and he brings an expert witness, and electrical engineer. We provided the report from Dana (he had been offered to have it inspected as well) and had a local shop owner as a witness. He testified in his 40 years of experience he had never seen an axle break and scatter roller bearings due to lack of oil. The bearings were always "welded" together. His expert disagreed.
During summation, our lawyer brought up the EE's lack of experience in the field. The guy got pissed, jumped up and shouted, "I object!" The judge threw him out.
Funniest part was the shop owner who testified for us had the guy's RV in his shop at the time. Second funniest was he attended my church. Saw him almost ever Sunday and made a point of saying Good Morning. He would never respond.
i dont know what calcs he used. but there is a LEGAL difference between an engineer giving his a opinion on subject matter, and Joe Smoe giving his opinion on the same subject matter.
Who do you want designing an action (giving his opinion on) you are about to jam a 338 lapua into 3 inches from your face? An actual gunsmith, or Bubba the ditch digger who uses a dremel to piece together ARs in his garage?
everyone thinks they are an expert until they have to answer "Why did you do that?" with "Well, your Honor,........."
He’s giving his opinion and citing his reasons to a jury, if his reasons are...reasonable what else do you want?
Having dealt with many licensed types, frankly I’d rather go off someone’s past works and track record vs government participation trophies
There was a video going around during the initial hysteria of covid, it was a doctor! A real life doctor!! Well minus he was a diet doctor, zero working experience in infectious disease, no major victories in the field, no discoveries in the field, but he has... like... official paper workz!!
Having dealt with many licensed types, frankly I’d rather go off someone’s past works and track record vs government participation trophies
There was a video going around during the initial hysteria of covid, it was a doctor! A real life doctor!! Well minus he was a diet doctor, zero working experience in infectious disease, no major victories in the field, no discoveries in the field, but he has... like... official paper workz!!
you think an engineers license is a government participation trophy?
lets see: Yes, you're honor, i have no experience in the field i am about to testify in, but i was a "chemical engineer" for a long time.
versus: Hello, im Tom Culverts, i have 35 years experience as a licensed engineer specializing in hydraulic modeling, hydrology, stormwater runoff, detention pond design, and stream routing. For those 35 years i kept an excellent record with the board and provided all my yearly continuing education for license renewal. i am prepared to testify on the subject matter today.
I’ve trained some engineers, very linear in their thinking, always thought if we ever had a zombie apocalypse they’d be eaten in like the first minute lol
Ok...so I said I was interested in their history on the field, if they are a engineer or a burger flipper who experiments in water sheds in his free time, show me your past history in the field, if your math, logic and history is sound, I don’t give a fuck about your “licenses”.
DQing someones opinion because they don’t have said government papers, that’s dumb as a bag of rocks
His opinions are worth what he charged for them.
If YOU invest money and time following his free opinions (albeit educated opinions) instead of hiring a licensed civil engineer who will be liable for the advisement given - then thats on YOU and if I'm on the jury I'm sitting there thinking "you got what you paid for".
If YOU invest money and time following his free opinions (albeit educated opinions) instead of hiring a licensed civil engineer who will be liable for the advisement given - then thats on YOU and if I'm on the jury I'm sitting there thinking "you got what you paid for".
If he's not charging for services, or passing himself off as a licensed professional, what's the problem? More importantly, is he correct or not?
The whole license and education requirement thing is bullshit. I'm a CPA and went through it myself. I wasted a whole lot of time and money in order to be able to meet the requirements to sit for that exam. Truth be told, all that time and money spent was virtually useless. I run into non credentialed accountants on a fairly regular basis that run circles around some of my fellow CPAs.
If you can demonstrate your knowledge by passing comprehensive, standardized exams you're A-OK in my book. I don't buy the "I'm not a good test taker" nonsense either. Can you read or not? When your boss/client etc. asks you a question what does it matter if it's written or verbal? You either know your shit or you don't. An expensive collection of guilded paper in fancy frames doesn't impress me.
You don't need to be an ASCE mechanic to know when a brake job is done wrong and someone with the proper knowledge can calculate the correct diameter of a drain pipe. Ruling for the homeowner.
No way, the only way to know your brakes have failed is if a expert tells you, trust the science, trust experts bro!
If you hit the brakes and nothing happens, that doesn’t mean anything, just antidotal non expert misinformation
Yep, I'll take someone with 20 years of service before I'd trust a new engineering degreed employee.
I can't tell you what I've seen in the railroad industry with newly graduated types. Books tell you how they think it should be done. Experience tells you how it has to be done in order for it to work.
Just curious as to why the hard on for this guy? The video really only talked about his 1st Amendment rights, not the merits of his work. You sure seem to be critical of this man for no reason. That is unless you read it in a book.
Most jurors are mouth breathers
And it’s the fault of whom ever has the most money to go after.
Leonard suskind, a plumber, beat Stephen hawking in a debate about astrophysics. Im not liscenced but i am a self taught mechanic and fabricator. I engineer things constantly and can see how the world works most of the time. Just because i dont have a liscence doesnt mean i cant give an educated opinion.
If it had been elon musk the county would be building an electric water propulsion device or some shit. There are two sets of rules, those for the very rich and those for the rest of us.
Oh no you don't. You can't do that. It says it right here in this thread. Only degreed individuals know how things work.
Imagine how many things would have never been discovered or improved upon if not for the backyard mechanic/engineer?
I know of a couple of bike builders who kinda changed the world....
to the lay man....you are correct.
legally....it is a lot more complicated....and really, it depends on how he represented himself and the context, and content of his letters....
if he wrote the letters, and said "as a private citizen who is interested in the case, in my personal opinion, looking at the math, i have come to XXXXX conclusions"....then it is clear he is acting in a personal capacity, and just offering his opinion.
if he wrote the letters and said," i am an engineer working on behalf of XXXXX family, and in my professional opinion, i have come to XXXXX conclusions..."........then it is apparently that he is acting in a professional capacity, on behalf of the defendants......that is where you can get into trouble.
whether he is correct or not is largely irrelevant.
legally speaking, this is akin to a person calling themselves a "doctor" and doing surgery on people, and not having medical licenses and insurance.....it doesnt matter if the "doctor" collects payment, or is actually doing surgery correctly.
he has first amendment rights. This is not a first amendment rights issue, as much as the IJ and this guy want it to be, and as much as the thread title misconstrued what is happening. This guy basically got a cease and desist letter from the state licensing board or else he would be charged with a crime. Most all states do this and it has to do with how they got started with licensing and the reasons why. Usually, it has to do with some really bad negligence that led to a high number of loss of life or property value loss.
Google the New London School Explosion to see what made Texas push to regulate engineering practices.
This is an old guy who probably doesnt give a shit if he gets sued or not. He can go on twatter and facebook all day and exercise his first amendment rights. But he's acting in a capacity as a consultant engineer, regardless if he's paid or not.
as an example, if a person were to email an engineer about what slab design and thickness he should use for this house. If that engineer gives his opinion, even if he was not paid, he basically is liable to that person who built that slab and then the house shifted, etc. In the legal sense, there is a big difference between an engineering opinion and one of the layperson.
Who said anything about government education. Are you building your latest strawman?
for the most part, you are correct. its about insurance policies. regardless of who is really at fault, the insurance companies settle, the engineers, contractors etc all hit their policy deductable and try to get out as cheap as possible.
i know for a fact that an engineer can be completely without fault for a construction/design issue but they will have to pay $50k-$100k out of pocket to get out of the lawsuit.
not they havent. it doesnt matter if your education came from a private university.
more mensa members in blue collar than white collar
for what it's worth
for what it's worth
As far as I can see it is about government licensing, which is IMO ridiculous, and education, not connected to government at all. You have idiots going on about how engineers don't know how to build a train, but Joe Billy Bob with the four teeth, he do. Of course, in any real world the engineers designed the whole thing, and then it has to be modified on site, like everything else, but for the most proudly ignorant in the group, it is all Joe Billy Bob and fuck yer book lerning and calcoolatin.
right. Serbu has the liability. i dont know shit about his experience or his background or his education.
i know yall are poking fun at the Serbu but its also making my point.
I’ll be the outspoken asshole who says the guy who has proven his worth building trains should build them, as for badges? We don’t need no stinkin badges
The world needs engineers, and billy bob who’s been doing it for 35 years, doesnt make him right. You know it is possible to do something wrong for 35 years and just be damn lucky it never caught up to you.
I do a lot of structural fabrication/election. If you ask me what size I beam to use to support the floor above it I’m going to tell you to call an structural engineer. Yes I can probably put something up that probably won’t fail, but that is not my risk to take or what I studied to make the calculations on beam size.
I hold welding certifications. Are there welders out there that are not certified that can weld as well or better than me? Sure. But I have the paper that says I passed the test to make a structural weld. It’s CYA. no the papers didn’t come from the government.
was doing a patio cover the other day. Home owner was doing it on the DL and didn’t want to pull permits. He Wanted dual 220v heaters put in. The handyman guy he hired who “has done all of his electric work for a long time” ran 14ga wire to power both of these 6000w heaters. I told homeowner that shit was going to fry the first time they were used and he needed MUCH larger wire.
a licensed professional would not have done that.
I do a lot of structural fabrication/election. If you ask me what size I beam to use to support the floor above it I’m going to tell you to call an structural engineer. Yes I can probably put something up that probably won’t fail, but that is not my risk to take or what I studied to make the calculations on beam size.
I hold welding certifications. Are there welders out there that are not certified that can weld as well or better than me? Sure. But I have the paper that says I passed the test to make a structural weld. It’s CYA. no the papers didn’t come from the government.
was doing a patio cover the other day. Home owner was doing it on the DL and didn’t want to pull permits. He Wanted dual 220v heaters put in. The handyman guy he hired who “has done all of his electric work for a long time” ran 14ga wire to power both of these 6000w heaters. I told homeowner that shit was going to fry the first time they were used and he needed MUCH larger wire.
a licensed professional would not have done that.
modified on site, huh? it happens, definitely. but in a court of law this happens "Your honor, how can the prosecution claim the engineering design was negligently deficient when the contractor did not build what was designed? The contractor deviated from the design without the responsible engineers approval and that was the cause of the failure." case dismissed.
I agree with this. The world needs both, and neither can do much without the other.
After working on cars trucks tractors and heavy equipment for a long time, I will tell you engineers are the dumbest mother fuckers in the world.
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