Kestrel 4500 w/ Horus or IPhone App

[Shanerbanner10]

Just wondering what you guys think about this one. I'm looking at purchasing a ballistic program. My options at the moment are some iPhone apps (shooter, ballistic fte, bulletflight) or a kestrel 4500 with atrag.
I know nothing beats solid dope and the bullet doesn't lie but if you had to choose...

Opinions? Also if you suggest the kestrel, where is a good place to buy that offers a good price for us military/leo guys?

Thanks in advance!

 

[dallas320i]

Kestrel with ATRAG at least faster, you do not need to enter weather params each time.

BTW, Kestrel With Applied Ballistics will be available in June (they promise)
Kestrel With Applied Ballistics

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Good deal, but if not 100% worried about being fast and have the time to get the information I need, is the 5-600$ worth spending in comparison to a 10$ iPhone at that puts out pretty good data (if good data goes in; good data comes out)

Would you prefer Applied ballistics over ATRAG?

 

[dallas320i]

Sure iPhone app cost much less, but you still need dedicated wind and weather meter (another Kestrel?).
Applied Ballistics still not released and I am not sure, but at least this have G7 bc but ATRAG only G1,
and Brian Litz (Applied Ballistics) I believe know what he doing

You may try iPhone App for $10 not a big deal and maybe this will work for you.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Gotcha, may as well go with the cheap shooter app or something similar, save down funds and go with the kestrel at a later time.

 

[remr5]

Due to money I purchased a windmate weather meter and run shooter and ballistic ae. both iphone apps use jb software and produce the same data. I just like features from both apps. I primarily use the shooter app. I attended the ASC Match this weekend and my shooting data was dead on. So, if money is an issue go with the windmate and shooter app. If its not kestrel with atrag.

 

[jwp6114]

i have had great success with the shooter app on the iphone. input wewather from kestrel 3500, adjust the BC to make your actuals match the program (this is what ATRAG does) and the app gets you within about .5 moa.

 

[vinsonr]

I used my Kestrel w/Atrag to get a 3rd round hit at 1760 yards this weekend. DTA SRS in 300win shooting 208 amax. The elevation was perfect, just had to bracket in the wind. This was my first time shooting past 1000. Also shot a R700 I re-barreled in .260 the night before but it was hard to see the splash of the 140 gr bullets at a mile, moved down to 1180 and made some hits.

G1 only doesn't bother me a bit...

 

[elkregulator]

I have the kestrel with the horus and have owned or played with most of the ballistic solvers out there excluding FFS.
The kestrel is the best tool I have found for the shooting I do. They all work to some extent; you will not see a big difference until you are beyond 1k. As with any tool, it is only as good as the data you put into it.
For me, the PDA or phone based programs I had didn’t continually update the environment settings, direction of the wind and the direction of fire. Most of the time, I set it and considered it close enough. I was too lazy to put the right pressure, temp, direction on fire, etc for every shot.
With the Kestrel, these are easy with the capture button. It is amazing how much this makes a difference. If you get a chance to use one, play with it setting up a 2k yard shot. Shoot east first thing in the morning, then west in the heat of the day and see how much it makes a difference. You will be surprised.

Don’t worry about the g1 bc. I just use the g1 bc’s from Litz book and use the true drop feature to finalize the mv.

Now… if I was doing a lot with moving targets and range estimation, this might be a difficult tool to use. The absence of a keyboard makes data entry a pain.
Good luck with your search, but I would recommend the Kestrel with Horus.

 

[Drgonzo_1981]

I use the shooter app, is usually dead on for me. I live in west Texas and get a lot of practice reading the wind direction and speed. That is fastest, but a kestrel is a good place to start, that is how I learned to gauge wind! It would be very helpful for altitude density. Anyways, it is all up to your comfort level and the amount in your bank account at this point, don't think you will go wrong with either!

 

[toddconley]

Due to money I purchased a windmate weather meter and run shooter and ballistic ae. both iphone apps use jb software and produce the same data. I just like features from both apps. I primarily use the shooter app. I attended the ASC Match this weekend and my shooting data was dead on. So, if money is an issue go with the windmate and shooter app. If its not kestrel with atrag.

Sir,
Where you able to get data on the mountain with your phone. I could not last year. Just curious

 

[Graham]

So far everyone in this Thread has been guessing regarding the use of these programs for serious ELR work.

I wouldn't use either for ELR. An iPhone with an App won't work past about 1200m without constant re-calibration. And the Horus/Kestrel thingy is a tourist trap. For ELR you need to properly calibrate your ballistics program at 90% of your supersonic range and you need a program that has the proper features.

A Nomad with either Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the ticket. I would not use anything less than that.

Todd, some people can get reception at the top of Narrowback - where you don't need it for any ELR.

BTW - there was no ELR at ASC this year.

 

[LastShot300]

So far everyone in this Thread has been guessing regarding the use of these programs for serious ELR work.

I wouldn't use either for ELR. An iPhone with an App won't work past about 1200m without constant re-calibration. And the Horus/Kestrel thingy is a tourist trap. For ELR you need to properly calibrate your ballistics program at 90% of your supersonic range and you need a program that has the proper features.

A Nomad with either Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the ticket. I would not use anything less than that.

Todd, some people can get reception at the top of Narrowback - where you don't need it for any ELR.

BTW - there was no ELR at ASC this year.

Agreed +1111

 

[Little Yoshi]

An iPhone with an App won't work past about 1200m without constant re-calibration...

Would you say that they are fine within 1200m?

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Would you say that they are fine within 1200m?

What he said.

 

[Graham]

Would you say that they are fine within 1200m?

A wise man once told me that the only truthful answer to a non-trivial question is: It depends.

 

[elkregulator]

Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the ticket.

I've been impressed with the atrag.... if it is a tourist trap- I really need to try FFS and/or ColdBore. Especially since it can be slaved to my vectronix. Startup cost is a killer…… Nomad, cable, software

 

[vinsonr]

Would you say that they are fine within 1200m?

It's not the distance that matters. Any solution boils down to 'does it get you the right data you need to make a shot when you need it'.

The main problem, especially with an iPhone app is that you must manually insert environmental data. iPhone bluetooth is not compatible with Kestrel w/BT. Shooter/AB on the Android can pull in Kestrel data.

If you have the right data those iPhone apps will be about as accurate as most things available. Shooter on my iPhone and my Kestrel w/ATRAG match up very well given the same working data.

 

[Armored Transport]

. For ELR you need to properly calibrate your ballistics program at 90% of your supersonic range and you need a program that has the proper features.

Running a PDA with ATRAG and using the Truing Drop option to properly set it up, is this what you are talking about as properly calibrating the balistic program? To me it sounds to be it. I am new at this and slowly getting it right. Input by much more in the know shooters helps me educate.....Thank's again for input.....

 

[Graham]

Truing Drop option to properly set it up, is this what you are talking about as properly calibrating the balistic program?

Yes.

The first adjustment should be to the muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity is a range, not a fixed value, and chronograph error can be as high as one percent. Use the physical drop for the tested ranges, shot on paper and measured. When your actual five hundred yard bullet drop matches the software prediction you are calibrated for five hundred and in. So, you will need to refine your calculations as the range increases, making alterations of velocity and BC. Repeat the data gathering process for ranges up to 90% of the maximum supersonic range of the cartridge. When the actual drop cannot be obtained use the dialed-up zero, but then correct it for the measured adjustment value of the rifle scope. If your programs allows for change in the drag curve or function you may want to do that as well. The object of this exercise is to get the software to match the actual performance of the round at supersonic velocities. You will be good if your margin or error is within your ability to hold and to aim at the desired distance.

 

[elkregulator]

Note- When you are refining the velocity, bc, etc. at extended ranges (1k+) it helps to shoot north->south or south->north to remove the vertical coriolis effect. Not that it is required or can't be accounted for but it's one less variable to worry about.

 

[Armored Transport]

Thank's for the timely response. So if I go into my range card in the ATRAG and scroll down to find a range that is just pre-transonic, put a piece of 4x8 wall board out there and check my drop on it at range then adjust....All my ranges from that point in will be spot on as per gravity....?...One shot range card with true MV ect.?

 

[Aimsmall55]

It's crazy I just came across this thread. Yesterday a buddy and i went shooting with both a bushnell elite Horus 32 reticle in their ffp spotting scope. With a kestrel 4500. We didn't use the reticle to range (we both have Leica 1600) but we did play with the kestrel. Our range was 895 yards on a 2'x2' ar 500 plate with 3" dots painted. I was using ballistic ae and running a 140 hybrid out of my creedmor and a 208 amax and a 215 Berger out of a .300 win mag. It all came down to knowing your numbers. Yes I did get the environmental conditions on ballistic ae put in. But if I did not know my muzzle velocity what would it matter. Cold bore Was a first round hit. You can buy all the fancy gadgets you want but if you don't know your #'s it doesn't mean squat. I use ballistic ae for every round I load and it's always a sure bet ill be on target if I know my #'s. Kestrel was my buddies as was the Horus 32 Bushnell. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[Ro_Bird]

So far everyone in this Thread has been guessing regarding the use of these programs for serious ELR work.

I wouldn't use either for ELR. An iPhone with an App won't work past about 1200m without constant re-calibration. And the Horus/Kestrel thingy is a tourist trap. For ELR you need to properly calibrate your ballistics program at 90% of your supersonic range and you need a program that has the proper features.

A Nomad with either Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the ticket. I would not use anything less than that.

Todd, some people can get reception at the top of Narrowback - where you don't need it for any ELR.

BTW - there was no ELR at ASC this year.

Well to a point on the Horus/Kestrel I'd agree Graham. It can become a "tourist trap" if you don't take the time to understand how truing works. Hate to say it but "garbage in garbage out." I have used it quite a bit for ELR military apps and found it to be very useful. Not saying its the end all be all for ELR because its not but the data is (if trued correctly) accurate. Plus considering weight/size/ruggedness/easy and speed of use I haven't seen anything that would offer ME an advantage. Now my opinion is a little bais and I can't say I have a broad field of experience with a large number of different programs but I think your portrayal of the Horus/Kestrelis a little off.

To address the original question, based off my experience have used both Atrag and Shooter I'd go with the Kestrel/Atrag if you could afford it.

 

[Lucks]

I love my Kestrel/Atrag. I use it at every match and everytime I shoot. The dope it has given me has been spot on. In my opinion it is well worth the money and I wouldn't be without it.

I started off with Ballistic AE (well it was FTE then) and a cheap Caldwell wind meter.
Then I bought a Kestrel 4000 so that I could determine Density Altitude (DA).
Then is sold the Kestrel 4000 and got the Kestrel 4500 with ATRAG.
Worth every penny!

 

[Drgonzo_1981]

So far everyone in this Thread has been guessing regarding the use of these programs for serious ELR work.

I wouldn't use either for ELR. An iPhone with an App won't work past about 1200m without constant re-calibration. And the Horus/Kestrel thingy is a tourist trap. For ELR you need to properly calibrate your ballistics program at 90% of your supersonic range and you need a program that has the proper features.

I have used shooter out to 1100 yards, has worked great. It also has a correction feature that will correct the my and bc to your inputed data, has up to five lines for data to be input in order to true the program to your load. Yeah it isn't true ELR but it has shown to be just as accurate at the data I have seen my brother's ATRAG spit out. It doesn't have as many features as the others, but think has worked well for me as a starter setup, will drop on some high end merchandise when my needs/skill level/distance obtainable really make it more of an issue. Hell, not everyone can even get out to that paltry distance much less 1200m+!

 

[JaysonF]

I just downloaded the shooter app. I like it a lot so far. While the atrag kestrel is nice, I already own a kestrel and the cost difference isn't worth it. $10 app for my phone, winning.

 

[avidflyer]

Tag........

 

[Capt Academy]

Interesting info, tag.

 

[Eric B.]

MORE THAN "WEATHER"

the Horus/Kestrel meter also factors corolis, average wind, internal compass for wind angle and amount of Corolis effect, declination/inclination angle, etc.

You "NEED" the Horus Kestrel unit. It's just SO complete. only distance needs to be added.

Get the Bluetooth version so you can easily download new ballistic data from your computer.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Given the known issues with the kestrel w Horus ( the positive aspects of it aside, as there are some), that being battery leaks and data dump when changing batteries and the in ability to update the software, I found a PDA with horus ATRAG and a separate windmeter (weatherhawk WM 350) to be the better option. Yes, it is more items and bulkier but I also found using the ATRAG easier and less cumbersome to use on a PDA compared to the kestrel version as well as the iphone/ipad apps such as AE, shooter istrelok, mildot, etc.

For all the features that some of the apps have, they are not intuitive and or user friendly. Meaning you have to go find out how to use or configure them to get the data you want and even then they sometimes dump your settings. The user interfaces and bells and whistles are eye catching but compared to using ATRAG on a PDA, the PDA is just easy. You get a physical manual (or you can download one) to explain everything and really, if you watch the 2 videos that Todd Hodnett does on how to use it, you can pick up a PDA and make it work. FFS and Coldbore are also PDA programs worth considering but they too have interfaces that are a bit more involved but they do allow you to tweak more than others, they also cost more than apps but they are in a different league then apps so it's not an apples to apples comparison looking at price alone. I like AE ,shooter and all the other apps but given the dicking around they require with them, I use them as back ups to my PDA and just use them for the moat minimal information.

Honestly, AE gets good update support from the writer but for the love of God, if he would only write a real manual that people could down load instead of the ramblings on the webpage, it might be easier to use out of the gate.

I know someone will chime in on how easy the apps are and yada yada yada and I get it, I can use them, it's not rocket science, but I find them frustrating to work with compared to a PDA. So my recommendation is go with a PDA with ATRAG/ FFS/coldbore and don't waste too much time dicking around with the apps. If you do a price break out of the cost involved for a kestrel with ATRAG vs a standalone windmeter, PDA and a copy of ATRAG, you will find you can get a used PDA and a current and updatable version of ATRAG for close to the same cost. This is just my opinion based on my experiences and I'm sure someone will vehemently object to something I said here but hey, it's the internet.

 

[Sako man]

Given the known issues with the kestrel w Horus ( the positive aspects of it aside, as there are some), that being battery leaks and data dump when changing batteries and the in ability to update the software, I found a PDA with horus ATRAG and a separate windmeter (weatherhawk WM 350) to be the better option. Yes, it is more items and bulkier but I also found using the ATRAG easier and less cumbersome to use on a PDA compared to the kestrel version as well as the iphone/ipad apps such as AE, shooter istrelok, mildot, etc.

I know someone will chime in on how easy the apps are and yada yada yada and I get it, I can use them, it's not rocket science, but I find them frustrating to work with compared to a PDA. So my recommendation is go with a PDA with ATRAG/ FFS/coldbore and don't waste too much time dicking around with the apps. If you do a price break out of the cost involved for a kestrel with ATRAG vs a standalone windmeter, PDA and a copy of ATRAG, you will find you can get a used PDA and a current and updatable version of ATRAG for close to the same cost. This is just my opinion based on my experiences and I'm sure someone will vehemently object to something I said here but hey, it's the internet.

Talked to Hodnett half a year ago and he was pretty gung-ho about the Kestrel wit ATRAG, it drove my purchase. He was probably coming from the angle as to what is a best recommendation for a recreational shooter? I was using some iPhone app before that (isnipe, MD ballistics) I would say advantage of the Kestrel is the one stop shopping and physical buttons that are more tactile. Did not know there were issues with battery leaks? I would say if I was to do it again I would go with Kestrel and Applied Ballistics drag calculations. As well if you have gloves on the iPhone sucks, plus you have to have the brightness settings really high. No not totally sold on iPhone for this application tho it works kinda but yes your "dicking around" for sure.

that said you guys are the real deal here, I'm just a novice competitor. But to the original OP a PDA with pen is gonna be better than an iPhone. And these guys like Papa, and Dogtown use same methods, wind meter plus PDA. Seem like the best guys go for this method. For 1000-1200 the Horus works for me.

 

[LastShot300]

Given the known issues with the kestrel w Horus ( the positive aspects of it aside, as there are some), that being battery leaks and data dump when changing batteries and the in ability to update the software, I found a PDA with horus ATRAG and a separate windmeter (weatherhawk WM 350) to be the better option. Yes, it is more items and bulkier but I also found using the ATRAG easier and less cumbersome to use on a PDA compared to the kestrel version as well as the iphone/ipad apps such as AE, shooter istrelok, mildot, etc.

For all the features that some of the apps have, they are not intuitive and or user friendly. Meaning you have to go find out how to use or configure them to get the data you want and even then they sometimes dump your settings. The user interfaces and bells and whistles are eye catching but compared to using ATRAG on a PDA, the PDA is just easy. You get a physical manual (or you can download one) to explain everything and really, if you watch the 2 videos that Todd Hodnett does on how to use it, you can pick up a PDA and make it work. FFS and Coldbore are also PDA programs worth considering but they too have interfaces that are a bit more involved but they do allow you to tweak more than others, they also cost more than apps but they are in a different league then apps so it's not an apples to apples comparison looking at price alone. I like AE ,shooter and all the other apps but given the dicking around they require with them, I use them as back ups to my PDA and just use them for the moat minimal information.

Honestly, AE gets good update support from the writer but for the love of God, if he would only write a real manual that people could down load instead of the ramblings on the webpage, it might be easier to use out of the gate.

I know someone will chime in on how easy the apps are and yada yada yada and I get it, I can use them, it's not rocket science, but I find them frustrating to work with compared to a PDA. So my recommendation is go with a PDA with ATRAG/ FFS/coldbore and don't waste too much time dicking around with the apps. If you do a price break out of the cost involved for a kestrel with ATRAG vs a standalone windmeter, PDA and a copy of ATRAG, you will find you can get a used PDA and a current and updatable version of ATRAG for close to the same cost. This is just my opinion based on my experiences and I'm sure someone will vehemently object to something I said here but hey, it's the internet.

+1111111111

 

[Armored Transport]

I am a 55yr old caveman that has his phone hanging on the wall. I have a PDA with ATRAG and it is very easy for me to use. I have quite a few guns listed with seperate loads for each that I can get at with ease. WELL worth the $. Oh yeah....The Kestrel 4500 BT rounds it all out for this Flintstone of the techno world.