Krieger_Tactics: Long Range Precision Marksmanship - Part 4 - Teaching NEW dogs OLD tricks.

Krieger_Tactics

Rip Van WInkle
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Krieger_Tactics



LONG RANGE PRECISION MARKSMANSHIP - PART 4

READJUSTING POINT OF AIM / POINT OF IMPACT

TEACHING A NEW DOG OLD TRICKS

Krieger
My call sign is Krieger. I am a former Special Forces Soldier (7th Special Forces Group, Ft. Bragg, NC), former security contractor, and current Unconventional Asset Recovery Agent.


LONG RANGE PRECISION MARKSMANSHIP SERIES

This series is dedicated to providing the basic instruction to beginner and less experienced long distance precision marksmen who utilize either the MIL dot or Duplex style reticle system with information in order to assist in attaining greater proficiency in your skills and abilities.

My goal is to assist you in learning the principles required in order to effectively engage targets. The utilization of the MIL dot reticle as the foundational reticle system mandates that the marksman himself is the point of information development, and not the scope reticle itself. The use of the demands that the marksman himself is proficient in calculations and the employment of his weapons system to include the scope, and not the other way around.

While the goal of these posts is to provide information in utilizing the MIL dot reticle system, I would have those who read this post be advised that the exact same principles that I describe may also be used with the more “modern” scope reticles.



TEACHING A NEW DOG OLD TRICKS

The standard method of zeroing one’s rifle is to use the center of the cross-hair as the 100 yard zero (point of aim / point of impact.

100 YARD POA POI x.JPG


Using this method provides the marksman with only 5 MILs of available range/elevation hold.

100 YARD W 5 MILs x.JPG


There is a method of readjusting your 100 yard zero in order to harness all TEN available MILs in range/elevation.

The method is to utilize the bottom of the thick vertical bar of the upper vertical cross-hair as the 100 yard zero point.

5.jpg


Using this method allows the marksman to harness all TEN available MILs of range/elevation.

100 YARD ZERO w TEN MILS OF ELEVATION.jpg


How would this ten apply?

I will use the following EXAMPLE range data in order to demonstrate the technique. To note, your range data and holds may differ from those used in this example.

4 2.jpg


200 YARD HOLD.JPG




300 YARD HOLD X.JPG

400 YARD HOLD.JPG

500 YARD HOLD x.JPG

600 YARD HOLD x.JPG




700 YARD HOLD.JPG



800 YARD HOLD x.JPG

900 YARD HOLD x.JPG

1000 YARD HOLD  x.JPG


TAKE-AWAY
Does this solution solve all of the issues of range and elevation marksmanship? No. Not at all. It does however provide a means to engage a target from 100 yards to 1000 yards without having to dial on range.


Krieger


Other posts in this series:
Long Range Precision Marksmanship Part 1: 7 Yard Zero
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...nge-marksmanship-part-1.7106280/#post-9945688

Long Range Precision Marksmanship Part 2: Introduction To Holding
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...introduction-to-holding.7106361/#post-9946992


Long Range Precision Marksmanship: Part 3: Holding From 100 to 1000 Yards
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-from-100-to-1000-yards.7107847/#post-9970820


#SpecialForces #Greenberet #SpecialOperations #SOF #contractor #defense #defensecontractor #remington #7.62 #51 #.308 #riflescope #scope #sniper #sniperscope #MIL #mildot #reticle #readjust #100yardzero #heavybarrel #zero #DDM #designateddefensivemarksman #marksman #countersniper #beginner #basic #shooting #shootingworld #longrangeprecisionmarksman #longrange #precision #precisionmarksmanship #elevationandwindage #MOA #longgun #competition #sniperrifle #callingwinds #rangecals #dialing #adjusting #calculatingwinds #rangeestimation
 

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TheGerman

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    Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

    So I realized I was missing some of my shots because my reticle is a MIL dot (it has the dark dots) and someone made my turrets in MOA? It doesnt make sense.
     
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    ACW39

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    ^^ You’re not kidding! However, I’m disappointed in his part 4. I was expecting more than that.
     

    Krieger_Tactics

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    Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

    So I realized I was missing some of my shots because my reticle is a MIL dot (it has the dark dots) and someone made my turrets in MOA? It doesnt make sense.

    I have often wondered why that would occur.

    I think that's a GREAT topic to write about in a future post!

    Krieger
     
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    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    This has got to be the longest running and most committed troll on here ?


    Ever hear the story of the Anvil and the Hammer? If not allow me to enlighten you:

    Last eve I paused beside the blacksmith’s door,
    And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
    Then looking in, I saw upon the floor,
    Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.


    How many anvils have you had,’ said I,
    To wear and batter all these hammers so?’
    Just one,’ said he, and then with twinkling eye,
    The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.


    And so, I thought, the Anvil of God’s Word
    For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
    Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
    The Anvil is unharmed, the hammers gone.”

    Which do you fancy yourself or I to be here, Sir... The anvil or the hammer?

    -Krieger
     

    x2cross

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    What if I don't have a reticle with the thing that goes up? Am I out of luck?
    Does your windage line go all the way across? You gotta turn your scope sideways then. Will only be able to use the new windage part of the reticle if the wind is blowing the right way
     

    rlsmith1

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    Does your windage line go all the way across? You gotta turn your scope sideways then. Will only be able to use the new windage part of the reticle if the wind is blowing the right way
    I’m pretty sure the windage is just for coriollis affect. Meaning I could only shoot east. Or west…?
     

    Infidel4life11

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    Krieger my brother, you should help this guy out.

     

    Huskydriver

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    These slides look really familiar to a school I went to in 2008......
     

    Dobermann

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    Anyone else having bad flashbacks to the old Magpul videos?
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    Krieger my brother, you should help this guy out.


    Hello Infidel4life11,

    I appreciate your having sent me this information. I will reach out to him.

    -Krieger
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    What if I don't have a reticle with the thing that goes up? Am I out of luck?

    I think that is possibly referred to as a vertical stadia line. I could be incorrect. And unfortunately, if you do not have one, then it would be very difficult if not impossible to utilize this TTP as there are no visible reference points.

    -Krieger
     
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    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    @Krieger_Tactics or you could use a canted mount.

    You could use a canted mount. But if your 100 yard zero is centered on the cross-hair, you are still only able to employ 1/2 of the available elevation of the scope's reticle.

    As well, if the marksman did not know of your option and has already purchased their rifle, scope and mount they would have two options:

    Option 1. PURCHASE A CANTED SCOPE - AT ADDITIONAL COST.
    (A) Purchase another scope mount which would result in additional cost.
    (B) They would also then have to remove the rifle scope.
    (C) They would have to take the mount off.
    (D) They would have to put the new mount on.
    (E) They would have to mount the scope again.
    (F) They would to reestablishing the level of the scope.
    (G) They would have to re-zero the scope, which would leave them with an un-zero'd scope until this occurred.
    (H) They would also have to decide what to do with the old scope mount; Sell it? Keep it for a rainy day? Discard it.

    Option 2. APPLY THE TTP AS PER THE POST

    (A) They would have to...re-zero the scope
    (B) The scope would go from their current zero to the re-adjusted zero in minutes as opposed to days, weeks or months as in option 2.
    (C) There are not parts being unused.
    (D) There is no additional cost in this option.

    -Krieger
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    I’m pretty sure the windage is just for coriollis affect. Meaning I could only shoot east. Or west…?

    Doesn't apply for windage as there is no set point from which to reference. Winds blow left to right and right to left.

    With elevation you are able to establish a set point from which to reference: 100 yards. You may have to take a shot within 100 yards, but the elevation deviation (with only the most extreme of circumstances) would not have to be accounted for.

    -Krieger
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    Depends on your latitude.

    Unfortunately the response to this query is not correct.

    The TTP provided in this post doesn't apply for windage as there is no set point from which to reference. Winds blow left to right and right to left.

    With elevation you are able to establish a set point from which to reference: 100 yards. All other ranges (elevation) is past/beyond 100 yards. Therefore (with only the most extreme of circumstances) the marksman would not have to account for any range within 100 yards.

    The same cannot be stated nor applied for windage.

    -Krieger
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    Gross conceptual error

    I beg to differ. Please feel free to provide graphical information to disprove the following:
    1   .jpg



    2 .jpg



    3  .jpg





    4.jpg









    5   .jpg





    As is graphically demonstrated, it is nigh impossible to utilize the MIL dots or vertical stadia above the center crosshair for holding at a range greater than 100 yards when the 100 yard zero is established at the center cross hair.



    -Krieger
     

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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    The idea is the 20moa rail is to get adjustment inside the scope to start all the way down. So it still lines up with the target and the barrel, but the interior adjustment is all the way down/up so you can use the full adjustment to dial up/down and you aren't starting in the middle of the adjustment range within the scope.
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Holy shit. It finally makes sense. This is actually Todd Hodnett. The poor man’s horse. Of course!!! I mean let’s ignore the fact that we have reticles with 20 mils below the center and use an old ass mil dot reticle and zero at the top instead of the center where the best optical clarity is.

    How could I have missed this all these years.
     
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    Krieger_Tactics

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    Holy shit. It finally makes sense. This is actually Todd Hodnett. The poor man’s horse. Of course!!! I mean let’s ignore the fact that we have reticles with 20 mils below the center and use an old ass mil dot reticle and zero at the top instead of the center where the best optical clarity is.

    How could I have missed this all these years.

    Please send me the name, not a link, but the name of the scope that has 20 MILs of elevation below the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    The idea is the 20moa rail is to get adjustment inside the scope to start all the way down. So it still lines up with the target and the barrel, but the interior adjustment is all the way down/up so you can use the full adjustment to dial up/down and you aren't starting in the middle of the adjustment range within the scope.

    I don't understand what you're stating, but I would like to.

    In order to assist me in understanding, where in this scope that is utilizing a 20 MOA rail is the 100 yard zero?

    Is the 100 yard zero at the center of the cross hair?

    -Krieger
     

    waveslayer

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    Please send me the name, not a link, but the name of the scope that has 20 MILs of elevation below the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
    Horus H59 reticle has over 35 plus if I remember.. so NF ATACR, NF BEAST, Houston Scope, Leupold has thr Horus and many others
     

    308pirate

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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    I don't understand what you're stating, but I would like to.

    It's fucking obvious you understand neither how a scope's internals work nor what a longitudinal inclination of the mounting base does to mechanically shift the zero point inside the scope.

    Yes, the 100 yard zero is still on the center of the reticle when you mount the scope on an inclined base. No, that 100 yard zero is no longer at the MECHANICAL center of the erector system.

    Take your obsolete knowledge and GTFO
     
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    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    Nightforce MIL-XT


    Well, I can provide some insight.

    1. The post discusses MILs not MOA.
    2. To note the difference between a MIL (which this and my other posts are discussing) and an MOA is 2.6 inches at 100 yards and grows exponentially with range. In fact the difference between just one MIL and one MOA at 1000 yards is 26 inches. Please see the attached graphic.
    3. The Nightforce MIL-XT has 20 MOA of elevation below the center cross hair. It is NOT graduated in MILs. Please see the attached image.
    4. The question I asked was what scope has 20 MILs of elevation below the center cross hair, not MOA.


    As I asked earlier by chance are you able to provide the name of a scope that has 20 miliradians of elevation below the center cross hair?

    -Krieger


    2 2.jpg


    3 2.jpg
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Well, I can provide some insight.

    1. The post discusses MILs not MOA.
    2. To note the difference between a MIL (which this and my other posts are discussing) and an MOA is 2.6 inches at 100 yards and grows exponentially with range. In fact the difference between just one MIL and one MOA at 1000 yards is 26 inches. Please see the attached graphic.
    3. The Nightforce MIL-XT has 20 MOA of elevation below the center cross hair. It is NOT graduated in MILs. Please see the attached image.
    4. The question I asked was what scope has 20 MILs of elevation below the center cross hair, not MOA.


    As I asked earlier by chance are you able to provide the name of a scope that has 20 miliradians of elevation below the center cross hair?

    -Krieger


    View attachment 7814724

    View attachment 7814726
    What?

    The MIL XT is a MIL reticle. It’s in the name. MOA is gay. It even rhymes. The reticle you attached is the MOAR which is an MOA reticle.

    You should also check your math on how many inches are in 1 MOA at 100 yds.

    Edited to add....I have a Nightforce ATACR 5-25 sitting right here (C579 model witha MIL-C reticle), i can see 27 mils below the dot.
     
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    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    Horus H59 reticle has over 35 plus if I remember.. so NF ATACR, NF BEAST, Houston Scope, Leupold has thr Horus and many others

    From the Horus website:
    "Due to popular demand, the legendary H59™ is now calibrated in Minute of Angle (MOA)."

    We're looking for a reticle graduated in MILs. Reasons being, please see above post re difference between MIL and MOA in measurable distance.

    The Horus Tremor 3 only has 17, MILs, not 20. I didn't look the others up.

    Point being, even if it had 20 MILs of elevation below the center line, which it does not, you would still have about 9 MILs of elevation ABOVE the center line that you're not harnessing, but you could if you.... reestablished your 100 yard zero above the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
     

    Huskydriver

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    Schmidt and bender using the msr2 60 mils below center..... Most mil scopes these days have at least 45 mils below center.....
    Screenshot_20220224-082645_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
     

    Huskydriver

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    From the Horus website:
    "Due to popular demand, the legendary H59™ is now calibrated in Minute of Angle (MOA)."

    We're looking for a reticle graduated in MILs. Reasons being, please see above post re difference between MIL and MOA in measurable distance.

    The Horus Tremor 3 only has 17, MILs, not 20. I didn't look the others up.

    Point being, even if it had 20 MILs of elevation below the center line, which it does not, you would still have about 9 MILs of elevation ABOVE the center line that you're not harnessing, but you could if you.... reestablished your 100 yard zero above the center cross hair.

    -Krieger

    Bro...the mil xt is a mil scope with a mil reticle....NF just happens to offer the same scope in moa called the moar reticle....
     

    6.5SH

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    Well, I can provide some insight.

    1. The post discusses MILs not MOA.
    2. To note the difference between a MIL (which this and my other posts are discussing) and an MOA is 2.6 inches at 100 yards and grows exponentially with range. In fact the difference between just one MIL and one MOA at 1000 yards is 26 inches. Please see the attached graphic.
    3. The Nightforce MIL-XT has 20 MOA of elevation below the center cross hair. It is NOT graduated in MILs. Please see the attached image.
    4. The question I asked was what scope has 20 MILs of elevation below the center cross hair, not MOA.


    As I asked earlier by chance are you able to provide the name of a scope that has 20 miliradians of elevation below the center cross hair?

    -Krieger


    View attachment 7814724

    View attachment 7814726
    Wrong reticle, is even in the name.

     

    Krieger_Tactics

    Rip Van WInkle
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    What?

    The MIL XT is a MIL reticle. It’s in the name. MOA is gay. It even rhymes. The reticle you attached is the MOAR which is an MOA reticle.

    You should also check your math on how many inches are in 1 MOA at 100 yds.

    Edited to add....I have a Nightforce ATACR 5-25 sitting right here (C579 model witha MIL-C reticle), i can see 27 mils below the dot.


    You are indeed correct.

    From the following website: https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/

    A Minute of Angle (MOA) is an angular measurement.

    A MOA is 1/60th of a degree.

    1 MOA spreads about 1″ per 100 yards. (actually 1.047″)

    In Long Range Precision Marksmanship everyone I know rounds down to 1 inch.

    -Krieger
     

    TacticalDillhole

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  • Jun 26, 2012
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    From the Horus website:
    "Due to popular demand, the legendary H59™ is now calibrated in Minute of Angle (MOA)."

    We're looking for a reticle graduated in MILs. Reasons being, please see above post re difference between MIL and MOA in measurable distance.

    The Horus Tremor 3 only has 17, MILs, not 20. I didn't look the others up.

    Point being, even if it had 20 MILs of elevation below the center line, which it does not, you would still have about 9 MILs of elevation ABOVE the center line that you're not harnessing, but you could if you.... reestablished your 100 yard zero above the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
    Actually, its offered in both, MOA and MILS but nice try. I also have an H59 in an a Bushnell scope sitting here. Its in Mils.
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    You are indeed correct.

    From the following website: https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/

    A Minute of Angle (MOA) is an angular measurement.

    A MOA is 1/60th of a degree.

    1 MOA spreads about 1″ per 100 yards. (actually 1.047″)

    In Long Range Precision Marksmanship everyone I know rounds down to 1 inch.

    -Krieger
    my mistake. I mis interpreted that you were showing the difference at 100 not saying 1 MOA is 2.6 at 100. thats my mistake. the rest is true. you are showing an MOA reticle which the MIL-XT is not. the MIL-C is not. The H59 can be had either way. my SKMRs are MIL everything is MIL. You keep using the mil dot reticle in your examples. no one uses those anymore. not competitivly and not tacticaly (except some police agencies because beuracrats are idiots). If you want to gain credibility you need to use modern examples and modern technology. We have learned a lot since the ML/MOA reticle/turret days.
     
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    6.5SH

    Old Salt
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    Jul 24, 2020
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    From the Horus website:
    "Due to popular demand, the legendary H59™ is now calibrated in Minute of Angle (MOA)."

    We're looking for a reticle graduated in MILs. Reasons being, please see above post re difference between MIL and MOA in measurable distance.

    The Horus Tremor 3 only has 17, MILs, not 20. I didn't look the others up.

    Point being, even if it had 20 MILs of elevation below the center line, which it does not, you would still have about 9 MILs of elevation ABOVE the center line that you're not harnessing, but you could if you.... reestablished your 100 yard zero above the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
    Different model, the original is MIL:

    As to Tremor 3, 17 MIL at maximum zoom (iirc 20ish, at 35x it would be ~ 7 mil), the scale extends down so far you most people can't even clearly read it at minimum zoom.

    image-png.6940242
     
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    waveslayer

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  • Mar 6, 2012
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    From the Horus website:
    "Due to popular demand, the legendary H59™ is now calibrated in Minute of Angle (MOA)."

    We're looking for a reticle graduated in MILs. Reasons being, please see above post re difference between MIL and MOA in measurable distance.

    The Horus Tremor 3 only has 17, MILs, not 20. I didn't look the others up.

    Point being, even if it had 20 MILs of elevation below the center line, which it does not, you would still have about 9 MILs of elevation ABOVE the center line that you're not harnessing, but you could if you.... reestablished your 100 yard zero above the center cross hair.

    -Krieger
    Lol! Are you serious? H59 is in Mils. By popular demand it's now offered in MOA. I'd give up if I were you. Save some dignity
     
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