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Law enforcement urban sniper rifle

mj30wilson

mj30wilson

Private
Minuteman
Jan 12, 2014
23
0
I was asked by a local law enforcement agency to create a idea of a urban and extended urban bolt action sniper rifle capable in defeating common urban barriers as the letter stated. I assume glass, dry wall etc.
The sheriff wanted to stay away from ar type rifles just in case of future legislation is enacted retraining and retooling is not necessary.
The .308 round was mentioned because in a pinch someone can run to a local store and buy some in a extended engagement and deliver to said sniper.
Don't know why said sniper would be blowing through that much ammo but just passing the word on to you.
What specs do you need to have such a gun perform at?
Should .5 moa at 150 yds be standard.
I would like to stay with the Remington action for familiarity and muscle memory.
What company do most law enforcement agency's go with i doubt out of the box Remington are standard fodder.

Any ideas on standards and makers would be appreciated, need opinions.
 
You can get a 20" aiae folder for dirt cheap right now. I'd look into that versus a Remington.
 
The standard rifle has long been the Remington 700 Police, some use the LTR, and indeed, factory is normal since few departments have the budget for any kind of custom job. Slap on a Leupold 3.5-10 scope and your have the basic standard package. Since they clearly have no clue what they are talking about, I doubt performance standards have any meaning, and in any event any off the rack rifle at Walmart shoots more than good enough for any realistic police engagement.
 
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In all seriousness, I would suggest:

Keep it short; there is no need to have a long barrel on it.

Have some sort of detachable mag system. There's a lot of administrative loading, unloading without a shot being fired and this just makes things simple.

Adjustible cheekweld and LOP are good things to have. Some places have relatively high turnover and the next guy to be issued said rifle may not be the same stature of the previous or next guy.


And out of morbid curiosity, what size agency is this for and what size urban population will they be working in? Can you share some of your background as I find it odd that an agency is contacting an outside individual for their weapon needs.
 
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mj30wilson said:
I was asked by a local law enforcement agency to create a idea of a urban and extended urban bolt action sniper rifle capable in defeating common urban barriers as the letter stated. I assume glass, dry wall etc.
The sheriff wanted to stay away from ar type rifles just in case of future legislation is enacted retraining and retooling is not necessary.
The .308 round was mentioned because in a pinch someone can run to a local store and buy some in a extended engagement and deliver to said sniper.
Don't know why said sniper would be blowing through that much ammo but just passing the word on to you.
What specs do you need to have such a gun perform at?
Should .5 moa at 150 yds be standard.
I would like to stay with the Remington action for familiarity and muscle memory.
What company do most law enforcement agency's go with i doubt out of the box Remington are standard fodder.

Any ideas on standards and makers would be appreciated, need opinions.
Click to expand...

i think you might be suprised to find most smaller depts actually do use standard remington 700 pss rifles. most of these small depts struggle to get an ammunition alotment to train let alone get $5000 rifle in the budget. our dept runs a standard pss and a ltr.

the .5moa accuracy sounds great and if the weapon will do it fine, problem is i dont see that many leo shooters that can do it with the weapon. yes, some can some cant. again i revert back to training, budgeted dollars for trigger time etc. i think a real world expectation is can the shooter/weapon produce moa results most of the time under most conditions.

as far was caliber, the law enforcement world is still stuck on .308 and probably will be for the foreseeable future i think. last, i think youre simply going to be trying to reinvent the wheel. all this urban cop rifle stuff has been figured out and its not rocket science. graham will be along and get you all spooled up on cop snipin shortly...
 
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I was thinking a rem p or pss trued with a new barrel installed. The hs precision stock that comes on it should be fine as it has full length bedding block in it.
Any ideas on barrel maker.
 
any of them....rock, bartlein,kreiger,oby....who cares. doesnt matter. i think what comes on them is fine for what they do anyhow.
 
mj30wilson said:
I was thinking a rem p or pss trued with a new barrel installed. The hs precision stock that comes on it should be fine as it has full length bedding block in it.
Any ideas on barrel maker.
Click to expand...

Why is the stock barrel not sufficient? Is this going to be for trained SWAT personnel or is this merely an accurate rifle to have in inventory?
 
Backstory they ordered some remington aac-sds i believe they had 5 distributed and all ended up having messed up barrels. The department was using another gunsmith that was trying to sell them a custom jobs. I inspected the barrels and found them to have been abused heavily. Since they had been in the care of 5 separate individuals the finger quietly got pointed at the gunsmith. The accuracy now is about 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Is apears he scored the barrels somehow my guess is trying his hand at hand lapping? So rather than call it a total loss i was thinking of truing receivers and barreling and putting some hs precision stocks on them and calling it good.
 
If you have those AAC-SD actions why not run 'em? Skip truing the action, buy a quality stock, install the 18" AAC replacement barrel and call it a day. Minimal investment that should produce sub-moa accuracy with factory match ammo.
 
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Sounds like they've already spent on remingtons with man hours, labor, ammunition, etc. etc. that could have been spent on at least 2 AI's. To save time, effort and cost--AI AEIII, 20" Folder, plenty to do everything they need. That way also as they've found out, no issue with the local hack trying to pawn off something on them. Although a stock LTR or one of the FN PBR's should as well, pair it with a stock AND quality AR with a low power variable or ACOG and they are set.
 
CoryT said:
Since they clearly have no clue what they are talking about, I doubt performance standards have any meaning, and in any event any off the rack rifle at Walmart shoots more than good enough for any realistic police engagement.
Click to expand...

Came in to post something similar. Sounds like they are looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.

mj30wilson said:
Backstory they ordered some remington aac-sds i believe they had 5 distributed and all ended up having messed up barrels. The department was using another gunsmith that was trying to sell them a custom jobs. I inspected the barrels and found them to have been abused heavily. Since they had been in the care of 5 separate individuals the finger quietly got pointed at the gunsmith. The accuracy now is about 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards.
Click to expand...

No offense, but I cannot imagine a scenario where a police engagement would need better than that kind of accuracy much less at 100 yards. Smells like a department looking to throw money around. If they have actual trained snipers that can do better, I imagine they would be the ones to be advising the folks with the purse strings.
 
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Rebarrel the Rems with a quality 18" barrel, cerakote, then stick them into a folding chassis like AICS 2.0, AX, Manners, KRG, etc. The folding option will allow a police sniper to be discreet getting into position by using a backpack and also be compact for use inside a surveillance van, or storage in the trunk of a patrol unit.
 
mj30wilson said:
Backstory they ordered some remington aac-sds i believe they had 5 distributed and all ended up having messed up barrels. The department was using another gunsmith that was trying to sell them a custom jobs. I inspected the barrels and found them to have been abused heavily. Since they had been in the care of 5 separate individuals the finger quietly got pointed at the gunsmith. The accuracy now is about 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Is apears he scored the barrels somehow my guess is trying his hand at hand lapping? So rather than call it a total loss i was thinking of truing receivers and barreling and putting some hs precision stocks on them and calling it good.
Click to expand...

It sounds like the AAC-sds rifles were rebarreled because the original barrels were bad. And they were rebarreled and still sucked? Or did they buy them rebarreled from this smith?

Help me out here
 
the smith ruined the factory barrels by scoring the insides. the guys got the rifle back after a routine check and clean and the groups opened up big time. So they were done dealing with him and brought me in to advise the best course of action. to rehab or rebuy. I am donating my time and equipment as long as they don't give me speeding tickets. just kidding. The department kind of has egg on their face and old rifles are in service now to cope but only 2 were left so 3 marksmen are left wanting. My plan is to take the action and true it up then rebarrel and restock. Add a pelican ccase and a harris bipod and some of their ammo and they have a package they can trust for years to come.
 
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Just slap new barrels in them, preferably using the services of a different gun plumber. Way simpler and cheaper than getting new guns. In fact, Remington might stick new tubes on them for you pretty quick, and they will be just fine.
 
With the new deals on the AE MKIII it's sort of silly not to go that route.

Especially for a department rifle. Folder, 3 position safety to lock the bolt, etc... I would just get the AI AE.
 
how much do those run? Looks like a $2000 minumum rifle.

Hell I can just buy 5 new aac's for $600 each.
 
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mj30wilson said:
how much do those run?
Click to expand...

Right now, AI vendors are clearing out their inventory for the new lineup (of which the AE will no longer be included) and some are down around the $3k mark.

What kind of turnaround can these people officers endure. Meaning, are these guns just a SHTF tool for a handful of selected patrol officers or are these guys actual trained snipers and part of an actual tactical team? What is the urgency?
 
i was told 6 month window but but $3000 per rifle is a bit much. I could buy another remington p for $1000. I could take the actions I have and tru and rebarrel and restock for around $1100. That's with a premium barrel. The guys i were told are designated marksmen and i do not know them personally. They do not use the word sniper either. That is my term they are politically correct. I just try to do a service for my community. I would not have advised them to buy an aac-sd. But that is the bill of goods they were sold. the dealer got them i believe for $500 a piece for the sheriff. The hogue stock is terribly flexible with bi pod it hits barrel. I recently bought one myself and am in the process of redoing it.
 
mj30wilson said:
i was told 6 month window but but $3000 per rifle is a bit much. I could buy another remington p for $1000. I could take the actions I have and tru and rebarrel and restock for around $1100. That's with a premium barrel. The guys i were told are designated marksmen and i do not know them personally. They do not use the word sniper either. That is my term they are politically correct. I just try to do a service for my community. I would not have advised them to buy an aac-sd. But that is the bill of goods they were sold. the dealer got them i believe for $500 a piece for the sheriff. The hogue stock is terribly flexible with bi pod it hits barrel. I recently bought one myself and am in the process of redoing it.
Click to expand...

Well, it's good to see people taking an interest and helping out where they can, but are you fully aware of the liability involved with doing "custom" work like this for an agency? Are you prepared to stand behind your work...for better...for worse...should you be subpoenaed and the deputies are now pointing their fingers at you this time? Conversely, are you prepared to have your name attached to these if these deputies use/deploy them outside of their scope of training?
 
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Why did they ask you for a solution to this issue? What are your qualifications? It does not sound like you are much more qualified than any of the rest of them. You are coming to an open forum to ask others for help......that's something that any of the department guys could have done just as easily.
 
Look at the FN-the FBI did, dollar for dollar, and barrel life, hard to beat.
 
Not trying to start anything here but if you could provide your background, I think some of the guys here would be able to provide you with much more clear and detailed information regarding your request. For me and when I read your posts, there are quite a few things that do not add up to me.

mj30wilson said:
Backstory they ordered some remington aac-sds i believe they had 5 distributed and all ended up having messed up barrels. The department was using another gunsmith that was trying to sell them a custom jobs. I inspected the barrels and found them to have been abused heavily. Since they had been in the care of 5 separate individuals the finger quietly got pointed at the gunsmith. The accuracy now is about 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Is apears he scored the barrels somehow my guess is trying his hand at hand lapping? So rather than call it a total loss i was thinking of truing receivers and barreling and putting some hs precision stocks on them and calling it good.
Click to expand...

mj30wilson said:
i was told 6 month window but but $3000 per rifle is a bit much. I could buy another remington p for $1000. I could take the actions I have and tru and rebarrel and restock for around $1100. That's with a premium barrel. The guys i were told are designated marksmen and i do not know them personally. They do not use the word sniper either. That is my term they are politically correct. I just try to do a service for my community. I would not have advised them to buy an aac-sd. But that is the bill of goods they were sold. the dealer got them i believe for $500 a piece for the sheriff. The hogue stock is terribly flexible with bi pod it hits barrel. I recently bought one myself and am in the process of redoing it.
Click to expand...

Heres just a few of the things you have said which are confusing / contradictory in nature. Clarification on your background and how and why this request originated to you would be helpful.

1. You stated you didn know who a good barrel manufacturer would be but then you state you could get it rebarreled with a "premium barrel" How do you know what a premium barrel is if you stated earlier that you didnt even know what barrel manufacturers to look at.
2. Scored the barrels via lapping? I highly doubt this but i guess it could be possible.? Again Im confused to your level of experience in determining a scored barrel from a used barrel, worn barrel etc if you cant even list the top name barrel manufactures as well as some of the other comments you have made regarding equipment.

Im not trying to call anyone out here but quite a bit of the things you are saying dont quite add up to me. You are obviously trying to help out the current situation but doing that sometimes means you need to step back and direct those you are trying to help to someone more knowledgable than yourself. Again, Im not trying to be rude but based on the what you have typed, I feel you are may become a liability in a situation you are truly trying to help. There are a number of highly reputable gunsmiths on this forum and I would recommend that you look into a few of them to help meet these needs. I have a gut feeling that you are going to try and do this yourself and something bad may come of it even with your good intentions.
 
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Budget, budget, budget, Wyfox stated it quite clearly re-barrel and throw them into a nice chassis. If they had the budget in the first place they would have just gotten new rifles to begin with instead of trying to salvage what they have. Most agencies if they have to get new rifles will see if the dealer will take their old rifles in on trade to see if they can get a price reduction.
 
mj30wilson said:
I was asked by a local law enforcement agency to create a idea of a urban and extended urban bolt action sniper rifle capable in defeating common urban barriers as the letter stated. I assume glass, dry wall etc.
The sheriff wanted to stay away from ar type rifles just in case of future legislation is enacted retraining and retooling is not necessary.
The .308 round was mentioned because in a pinch someone can run to a local store and buy some in a extended engagement and deliver to said sniper.
Don't know why said sniper would be blowing through that much ammo but just passing the word on to you.
What specs do you need to have such a gun perform at?
Should .5 moa at 150 yds be standard.
I would like to stay with the Remington action for familiarity and muscle memory.
What company do most law enforcement agency's go with i doubt out of the box Remington are standard fodder.

Any ideas on standards and makers would be appreciated, need opinions.
Click to expand...


This reply is not meant to flame you or be disrespectful. I'm currently Law Enforcenent and understand thoroughly the politics that comes into play. From your original question, some commonly mis-used words, and replies it appears you are not very familiar at all with bolt action rifles or in tune with the team who's going to be using these rifles. In all fairness to the sheriff, the officers that will be deploying these weapons, and the citizens these weapons will be protecting, my first suggestion would be to relinquish the request to someone who is more familiar with the subject matter.

If you don't want to do that, my second suggestion would be to meet with the team and find out what they want and what works for them. What better person to tell you what works and what they like then the person who's going to be using it.

I'm currently assigned under K9 operations and when we buy a new dog we don't send the Captain over investigations to pick out a dog. We send the handler and K9 supervisors to help make an educated and well thought out decision.


Another suggestion is to take what people from the Internet say with a grain of salt. While this is a great website with members who are professional and well versed in this subject matter, there are a lot on here who aren't. Many think the latest and greatest is what's needed to get the job done and that's not the case. I would be willing to bet most members here are not law enforcement anyway which goes back to my point earlier, why not ask the people who are going to be using them.


Good luck with the endeavor. I second Accuracy Internatinoal though as a great all around Mil/LE rifle, just make sure to do your homework on what options will work best for that particular team of guys.
 
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Longrifles has a group buy that's ongoing for truing Remington 700 actions and rebarreling, among other things - have some 24" Bartlein medium palma barrels put on, and you're good to go (grizzly.com usually has the barrel blanks in stock in the $300s).

John
 
I don't understand why they would go with stock AAC-SD 700's to begin with because that is a horrible way to go for a LE Rifle and that's coming from someone who is an LEO and owns a 700 AAC SD. If these rifles are for members of a Tactical / SWAT team working as in a marksman role in an urban area there is no reason not to go with the best to supplement the primary rifle/carbine carried by all the team members. IMHO the Accuracy International offerings are the best rifle for the job.


Our agency purchased AI AE's for all of our agency snipers and the rifles are loved by all that shoot them and have been 100% reliable. Being sub MOA / highly reliable factory rifles the AI's are great LE rifles and they pretty much eliminate the chance of a lawyer coming back blaming them and possibly you when something goes wrong with a custom/rebarreled rifle. I would also go with .308 because there is no need for anything bigger in an urban setting. I work in a large metro area and can not see many occasions where a shot over 50-70 yards would be taken except in very rare circumstances but then again that is why the department bought AI's just in case. If all else fails and the Sherriff does not feel that the Tac team guys deserve the best then it may be best to go with a factory 700P / LTR.

If the Sheriff is already worried about buying evil black AR style rifles due to future legislation he's a fool..... Agency rifles are likely going to be exempt from any future legislation hence the reason why an LE agency can go out and by a brand now H&K MP7, A Colt M4 a FN P-90 (All examples of weapons in active LE service) or anything else with a full auto selector and short barrel. So, a AR platform rifle should not be out of the question and may be a good fit in an urban area if these rifles are just for a DMR / Patrol role and not for a TAC/SWAT team.

I know you're just trying to help out and do a good thing but tread lightly especially if the Sherriff is so liability minded he won't buy an AR type platform. If you help them out and something does go wrong I can see that type of Sherriff try to push all the blame on you. I would try to convince him that it would be best to spend the money on better equipment especially if they are going to be used in a tactical team marksman / observer or whatever they want to call their snipers.
 
as urban LE sniper engagements average under 100Y, a rem 700 SA, savage 10, winchester 70 is more than capable and affordable. spend the "savings" versus guccier rifles for glass, ammo, suppression, ancillary items, and training.

package deals ready to go: Remington Law Enforcement - Rifles - Model 700 Police Rifles

Savage Arms

Model 70, Stealth II, -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Historic Product Model

homeland security and justice dept. has some good grants out there too to offset costs, fill out the paperwork.
 
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Hmmm and what large METRO area would that be COLOSHOOTR,,,LOL. Just funning with you no disrespect, there is only one large METRO area in Colorado!
 
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thanks for the tips i think i will step back and recommend him contacting Remington as they probably have some law enforcement discount or something that will help him re barrel and restock these rifles for duty.
Let Remington get sued. I quietly build rifles for select friends in the community. I mainly cater to the elderly or people with a set back in life or body. The rifle is the last part of my complex puzzle of reducing recoil and creating brackets to shoot from wheel chairs. I don't have any experience with le stuff just an adviser to a friend aka the sheriff. I usually adapt a factory offering and everything is straight forward and kept together besides the stock. The wording before is me trying to wrap my head around everything that is involved with choosing every piece of that puzzle that is a marksman rifle. I can tell you premium barrel names but don't really know why a manufacturer is chosen for a particular purpose. Or is it just whoever has a tube with your specs in stock?

As far as creds I don't advertise and generally don't charge for my time and work as a machinist by day and gunsmith at night. I don't work on guns I work on projects that get people out hunting. The smiles are payment enough at the end of the day. The sheriff has seen several of my concoctions and that is why he asked unofficially what can be done to remedy said situation.

The ai does look good but i doubt the sheriff is going to blow $15000 on rifles.
qualifications or credentials i feel i will never have enough.
 
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As some have asked already, what is your background and what convinced the Sheriff to select you as the go to guy with their department issued rifles? Is it a solicited request from the Sheriff or is it a buddy of yours that is a cop telling you about the issues with their rifles that brings you into it?

Not meant to be a slam on you personally, you sound like you are trying to help out your local community, however, I would take a step back and think about what it is you are trying to do with what appears to be a real lack of experience in this matter, not just on your part.

I can't imagine a Sheriff, Chief of Police, etc going to the general community and soliciting a request for repairs to their precision rifles, patrol rifles, or duty handguns.

You don't, perhaps, work at the local range or gun store do you? If you don't, my apologies, but it just sounds like some of the people I have met in those types of places that want to make an impression with the local PD.

If it is a serious solicitation on the part of the department, I have to say, it sounds like the Sheriff is in way over his head and may want to contact other LE agencies with programs that are in place for advice on training, liability, equipment, and policy. Departments do this all the time and it is very helpful in developing programs that may be new or need to be improved.

The days of sticking a bolt rifle in the hands of a patrol officer and calling him a sniper or dm is well past.
 
factor in how much each officer is paid per hour to fiddle f with substandard equipment, ammunition, time getting DOPE, etc and that AI price isn't so bad after all. Take 5 officers alone on one training day and the county is already out 1k+ minimum of lost time.
mj30wilson said:
how much do those run? Looks like a $2000 minumum rifle.

Hell I can just buy 5 new aac's for $600 each.
Click to expand...
 
yeh he just asked me as coffee house fodder and i said i would think about it and get back with him. We have a shoot this week and i was trolling for a consensus to see how people felt about certain requirements. The questions were not official by any means just a discussion. I don't know why they initially bought the aac-sd's. I assume the budget had something to do with it.
 
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I agree with the remmington factory idea,however I would have those rifles checked out by a quality gun smith first to find out what happend to their accuracy from the other gun smith. they shot fine until he CLEANED them! Definatly find another smith to work on that departments guns.
 
mj30wilson said:
thanks for the tips i think i will step back and recommend him contacting Remington as they probably have some law enforcement discount or something that will help him re barrel and restock these rifles for duty.
Let Remington get sued. I quietly build rifles for select friends in the community. I mainly cater to the elderly or people with a set back in life or body. The rifle is the last part of my complex puzzle of reducing recoil and creating brackets to shoot from wheel chairs. I don't have any experience with le stuff just an adviser to a friend aka the sheriff. I usually adapt a factory offering and everything is straight forward and kept together besides the stock. The wording before is me trying to wrap my head around everything that is involved with choosing every piece of that puzzle that is a marksman rifle. I can tell you premium barrel names but don't really know why a manufacturer is chosen for a particular purpose. Or is it just whoever has a tube with your specs in stock?

As far as creds I don't advertise and generally don't charge for my time and work as a machinist by day and gunsmith at night. I don't work on guns I work on projects that get people out hunting. The smiles are payment enough at the end of the day. The sheriff has seen several of my concoctions and that is why he asked unofficially what can be done to remedy said situation.

The ai does look good but i doubt the sheriff is going to blow $15000 on rifles.
qualifications or credentials i feel i will never have enough.
Click to expand...

Stepping back is a good decision. Sounds like you are just trying to help your community. That earns you the manly nod of approval.

I would explain to the Sheriff that he should probably ask his DM's what they can work with within his budget. I would any DM/sniper to know what equipment is right for the job.
 
Our tac teams run GAP-10's for the snipers. We used to have Remington bolt action rifles. Just FYI.
 
Lowlight said:
With the new deals on the AE MKIII it's sort of silly not to go that route.

Especially for a department rifle. Folder, 3 position safety to lock the bolt, etc... I would just get the AI AE.
Click to expand...

+1 I have both a PSS and an AI. IMO their is no contest as to which is the superior rifle. As for muscle memory I don't think their was much difference in going from my PSS to my AI. The performance of the AI is well worth the difference in cost. As mentioned with the low prices on the AIAE now it is a real bargain. I rarely shoot my PSS anymore since I got my AI.
 
i would most ceartainly put a good custom barrel on it.
 
mj30wilson said:
yeh he just asked me as coffee house fodder and i said i would think about it and get back with him. We have a shoot this week and i was trolling for a consensus to see how people felt about certain requirements. The questions were not official by any means just a discussion. I don't know why they initially bought the aac-sd's. I assume the budget had something to do with it.
Click to expand...

It's a tough situation that you're in, and clearly you're trying to do the best you can. It's also fairly clear that the Sheriff has no idea what he's purchasing, and based on descriptions, probably doesn't really understand what they're going to be doing with them, or why. Sadly that's not an uncommon situation out there. There are plenty of guys on this forum and elsewhere who could explain to him what those officers actually need, and why, but the trick is getting the sheriff to both listen and understand. If the "designated marksmen" have been sent by their agency to training courses, and have experience with their rifles, then odds are they already know what's out there, what they actually need, and why the existing rifles aren't cutting it. Maybe you might focus on enlightening the sheriff as to why he should be willing to spend more money to buy bargain-deal AI AEs instead of what they have now? Get him in touch with certain people, and let them explain why spending the money up front is going to save them from potential liability and failure down the road.
 
.308 rem 700 shooting 110 v-max........DRT. 70 to 100 yds, pops there eyes out.
 
I'm a little surprised no one has suggested suggesting that their DMs, or even just one, pays a visit to this site and does a little research to help them determine their own needs. There has to be one gun enthusiast out of the five that would get a kick out of this place, and there is plenty for them to learn, especially within their budget, however small (but still realistic). There's even the MIL/LEO subforum for them to filter out the kooks.
 
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