Suppressors LE Subguns

Phylodog

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I have a question primarily for LE guys about the subguns currently in use by their departments but welcome suggestions from anyone with an educated opinion on the topic.

We are beginning to see our H&K MP5 sub guns show their age. 2/3 of the team carries the M4 platform and the remaining 1/3 are using the H&K MP5 (about 10 guns). We have another 15 MP5s in inventory and they are all beginning to show their age and suffer from excessive wear. We had a distributor in this week to look at our inventory and an issue being discussed was the difficulty in obtaining replacement parts for the MP5s. This led to the team commander asking me to research alternatives.

I've never been much interested in sub guns. I fell in love with the M16/M4 platform when I went into the Army in 1990 and have never changed my opinion so my knowledge about subguns is pretty limited. We would prefer to find an alternative to the MP5 in a larger caliber which is reliable and able to be utilized with simmunition type training equipment. I realize this limits what's out there but I thought I'd ask those who have more experience than I do.

Any input would be appreciated. My commander asked me about the Kriss Super V and I told him that while I found it to be an interesting concept I did not know if there were any agencies using it who could provide feedback to it's function in this role. We do have two UMPs in .45ACP and I'm going to check on the availablity of simmunition conversion kits for these.

TIA
 

cruizer

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Re: LE Subguns

replacement parts are not hard to find. They are exspensive. For what you spend to replace bolt group and trigger group you can damn near buy a new AR series rifle.
 
G

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Re: LE Subguns

If you get a chance to test out a 7.62X25 upper assy on a M16, don't pass it up.
 

Graham

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Re: LE Subguns

I'm not a big fan of subguns for LE.

I do like the MP5 platform, especially the MP5SD3 in 9mm. But I find the .40 cal MP5 versions to be a bit more awkward to run due to the step-up in caliber.

In my experience departments either choose to issue and run their MP5's or they don't; there's just not much in the way of an alternative.

But there are options that are equally good and cheaper: The Colt AR15 verson in 9mm is fantastically controllable on full-auto, and simunitions capable, but I don't think it's available in any meaningful way in a larger pistol caliber.

Besides, .223 M4 carbines are more tactically useful, more accurate at longer ranges, cheaper, and easier to train with for the average person.

Properly running a subgun demands superior gun handling skills from the individual officer. One department very, very, very close to me has a bunch of MP5's: the only thing for which they have been successfully used is shooting the ceiling, taking out the lights, and damaging the machinery on the indoor range. Proper subgun training requires someone in charge who understands the weapon system, full-auto technique, and really knows what he is doing. To let otherwise inexperienced 'firearms instructors' train officers on subguns is a recipe for disaster. To then field those officers with subguns is a danger to the public.

If your tactical team guys currently running subguns are good, and they know what they are doing, why not ask them what they think the limitations of the MP5 system are and what they would like to see changed with regard to the issued weapons? You might be surprised at what you hear from them.
 

Bacarrat

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  • Jan 22, 2007
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    Re: LE Subguns

    The M4/Mk18 has everything going for it.

    But for shits and giggles, get a Glock 18 in for testing purposes.
    laugh.gif
     

    Outsydlooknin75

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    Re: LE Subguns

    If I was LE there is no way in hell that I would want a pistol caliber AR/M16 conversion. I have seen too many hiccups with them to trust my life to the thought of having to use oned.

    I really think that is where the MP5 shines is that it is a factory offering and all parts are designed specifically for it. And the MP5 is a proven platform.

    I am match director for a piustol caliber carbine match ...... the only guns that I see that dont have malfunctions are factory guns, MP5's, Beretta PX Storm, Keltec sub2000, stuff that was built specifically to shoot pistol cal stuff. The 9mm AR's always have a hiccup of some sort or the other, wehter its mags not feeding just right, to stuff not ejecting just right, and to trust my life to something that I see so many malfunctions with, I just cant do it.
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: LE Subguns

    Cory, we run .45ACP UMP's down here.

    The only complaint I have ever heard from the guys who carry them are the LOP is a bit too much with entry vests. They now make a AR stock adapter for them that our guys are trying to get.

    Other than that, they are accurate and reliable. They are one of the smoothest shooting subguns I have ever fired. Very controllable.

    I don't know about the Sims conversions for them. We usually just run AR bolts and Sim Glocks for force on force. It's not optimal, but all of our guys with UMPs also have M4's.

    I wish I could give you more info, but since my specialty is the long gun, I don't get a UMP.
     

    Phylodog

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    Re: LE Subguns

    I appreciate the input guys. They guys who are currently running the MP5s are in no hurry to switch platforms. They are proficient and comfortable with them but as I stated the guns are aging. If the decision were mine to make everyone would simply carry an M4 or a variation of but I'm a few places below the top on that totem pole.
     

    Zebra644

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    Re: LE Subguns

    Our team is a regional team comprised of the County and 2 other Depts.We fall under the County Team Commander and train and P.T. together. I am 1 of 4 from my Dept. that are on. We have 2 MP5SD's with telescoping stocks.They are fun to shoot, and great for when we are going up a stairway since you can make it really small. But they are an absolute pain in the ass to clean after a shooting session. Most of us carry M-4 variants. We also have a UMP in .40 with a "can" on it, and its a keeper. I would look at either getting some 9mm deal in M-4 Variants so its the same weapon platform and every body will be familiar with it,or go with the UMP in 40 or 45. Depending on budget and what your most likely to face.We have both country and urbran situations to deal with, so we are outfitted to handle both. I hope this helps.
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: LE Subguns

    Cory, I don't know if you have checked this option, but depending on the status of those MP5's you may be able to get a hell of a deal in trading them in. If they are transferable you may be able to trade even or better for new UMP's.
     

    Phylodog

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    Re: LE Subguns

    Yeah, we had someone up from Kiesler's and we were told they were worth around $350 trade in value. Now if they were pre 86 and not restricted we'd have enough trade in value to buy new guns, vests, helmets, boots....
     

    BigJoe29

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    Re: LE Subguns

    6.8 LWRC PSD is nice and small

    MP7 is a really nice platform if you want to stick with HK

    those are my two top choices.
     

    BookHound

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.40 cal MP5's

    </div></div>

    This is a horrible suggestion. HK discontinued the .40-caliber MP5s in 1999 (IIRC) and getting parts for them IS hard.

    I am not a huge HK fan. And this is from the owner of more than one MP5. HK almost doesn't want your business unless you are the military. I could tell you stories of how they have gone out of their way to NOT help PDs.

    The 416 is also not a great choice. The piston driven guns are not the answer to perceived issues with DI guns. If I was to get a piston gun, the LWRC ones are the ones to get for a variety of reasons. The LWRC guns have better barrels and a smoother cycling action. Plus, LWRC actually is a company that wants your business.

    Pistol caliber guns aren't the best choice for LE applications. Again, just my opinion. But most of them lack the penetration you get with rifle caliber solutions.
     

    Phylodog

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    Re: LE Subguns

    You're thoughts are consistent with mine TG. I have no desire for anything other than my M16/M4. Mine is a 10.5" and I have no problems clearing rooms, taking 200 yard shots or anything in between with it. Unfortunately there are several on my team who, for whatever reason, feel they need something different.

    The only issue I find with mine is the substantial muzzle blast but that's only an inconvenience. I've experienced auditory exclusion before so I don't feel the noise is an issue.
     

    BigBoss0311

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    Re: LE Subguns

    Ah yes, LWRC. OUTSTANDING customer service. Cannot emphasize that enough. They take care of ALL their customers, LE/MIL or civilian.
     
    G

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, we had someone up from Kiesler's and we were told they were worth around $350 trade in value. Now if they were pre 86 and not restricted we'd have enough trade in value to buy new guns, vests, helmets, boots.... </div></div>


    I'm sure if you got them de-milled, you would make more than $350...depending on their config. Hell the trigger groups alone could be worth close to that.

    As for your original inquiry, we were given the opportunity to demo some UMP's in .45. I was surprised at their bulk compared to the MP5. IMHO Short of a light, short-barreled AR, I'm not sure there is much better than a good MP5 with carefully chosen ammo. Since no one on our team now carries anything smaller than a 16" AR, I long for a light and compact MP5.
     

    cruizer

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    You sould be able to get at least $800 for the demilled parts.
     

    SuckitTrebek

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.40 cal MP5's

    </div></div>

    This is a horrible suggestion. HK discontinued the .40-caliber MP5s in 1999 (IIRC) and getting parts for them IS hard.

    I am not a huge HK fan. And this is from the owner of more than one MP5. HK almost doesn't want your business unless you are the military. I could tell you stories of how they have gone out of their way to NOT help PDs.

    The 416 is also not a great choice. The piston driven guns are not the answer to perceived issues with DI guns. If I was to get a piston gun, the LWRC ones are the ones to get for a variety of reasons. The LWRC guns have better barrels and a smoother cycling action. Plus, LWRC actually is a company that wants your business.

    Pistol caliber guns aren't the best choice for LE applications. Again, just my opinion. But most of them lack the penetration you get with rifle caliber solutions.

    </div></div>

    Note the progression of suggestions I made with the .40 being on bottom. while not the best option it is an option.

    As both a current owner of both an MP5A3 and a 416 I speak from experience on both platforms.

    I think you should elaborate on why a 416 would not be a great choice.
    Most guys I know that shoot either suppressed or just a large amount of ammo in general love a piston based system due to the fact they don't get as dirty. That being just one of the few ways the system is superior.

    Your preaching the LWRC platform over the H&K. Why is that? Just out of sheer curiosity. The 416's fit, finish,craftsmanship and materials used are unmatched as far as I've seen yet.

    Better barrels and smoother cycling? I think there are more than a few that would question that. You do own both platforms?

    My number one choice would be a 10.5 inch 416 suppressed.
     

    fast freddy

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    Re: LE Subguns

    350 trade in sounds like a joke, parts kits are going for 1500-2000 and most post samples are around 1000. ill give you 500 per gun to transfer a couple to my SOT to make some parts kits.
     

    fast freddy

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    from what ive seen parts arent hard to get or expensive for post samples, HK wont sell any parts to civilians, but will still deal with agencies.
     

    tennessean

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    Re: LE Subguns

    We have dumped all of our pistol caliber subguns and have gone to the 11 1/2" Colt M4 Commando (RO933) across the board for all 18 members. We decided that we needed a reliable weapon platform that will defeat most body armor and also provide much greater terminal ballistics.
    We have been extremely happy with the reliablity of the Colt platform and have had very few malfunctions that could be attributed to the weapons themselves.
    I know I may draw alot of flak for this but, in my experience, the Colt AR15/ M16 is the best 5.56 platform on the market today, piston guns included.
    The only modifiactions that we have done is add Surefire railed forends, Surefire lights and single point slings. We are currently purchasing suppressors for obvious reasons.
    I would caution you to use a bonded core bullet such as the Federal TRU for better penetration with less fragmentation.
     

    RollingThunder51

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tennessean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would caution you to use a bonded core bullet such as the Federal TRU for better penetration with less fragmentation.</div></div>

    In Federal's own testing, the load only penetrated 7.75" in bare gel and a pathetic 2.25" after passing through auto-glass. In almost every category, this load was one of the bottom three performers of all the Federal loads tested. See Federal's Law Enforcement .223 Rifle Data Book.
     

    Mo_Zam_Beek

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    Re: LE Subguns

    The Super V was mentioned previously.

    Has anyone spent time with a Super V in full auto? (My understanding of them in semi is - 'not so much')


    Phylo - why do these guys insist on hanging onto a pistol caliber? Second, are they hanging on to 9mm?

    I have read that some agencies do prefer .45 ACP SBRs as "Trailer Guns" but I am not sure I follow the logic over a 5.56 / 6.8 SBR - shitty mobile home park or not.


    Good luck
     

    Bacarrat

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  • Jan 22, 2007
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    Re: LE Subguns

    In FA the Super V is a handful. The MP5 is much much easier to control. That would make since since you are shooting a much heavier bullet.
    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9HY9_3LC1nQ"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9HY9_3LC1nQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

    I would still take a MK18 or any SBR'd AR over any pistol caliber subgun.
     

    fast freddy

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    Re: LE Subguns

    my SOT had a sample short barrel full auto kriss and shooting it side by side the full auto was way better than the semi version. grouping, even on auto was better than the semi. i dont know if the 16 inch barrel hurts its performance or if it was just made for auto fire, or if the semi version was a lemon the semi gun was crap.
     

    Mo_Zam_Beek

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    Re: LE Subguns

    I have read effectively the same as well as the WTF do I have a 16" .45 ACP in my hand for? And why would I spend the energy and money to SBR 'this' thing? On a few other sites.


    Good luck
     

    OregonShooter

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    As a MP5 Clone owner with a Trident-9 can... the only thing a pistol carbine has going for it is SCARY silent 147gr boolits hitting head shots at <25 yards fast.

    That said, the SO I was with changed their Colt 9mm subguns out for Noveske 5.56 SBRs for the obvious reasons.
     

    tennessean

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tennessean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would caution you to use a bonded core bullet such as the Federal TRU for better penetration with less fragmentation.</div></div>

    In Federal's own testing, the load only penetrated 7.75" in bare gel and a pathetic 2.25" after passing through auto-glass. In almost every category, this load was one of the bottom three performers of all the Federal loads tested. See Federal's Law Enforcement .223 Rifle Data Book. </div></div>

    I was unaware of the problems with the TRU, thanks for the heads up. We are currently use TAP Urban and have recently had a bad performance issue in a shooting. I've also witnessed one of the polymer tips break off and become lodged between the hammer and sear which locked up the gun. We are about to set bid specs for new ammo and I want to get rid of the TAP and go to something with more predictable performance to T&E. The TRU was on my short list. What would you recommend?
    Sorry if I hijacked the OP thread.

    TN
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: LE Subguns

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read effectively the same as well as the WTF do I have a 16" .45 ACP in my hand for? And why would I spend the energy and money to SBR 'this' thing? On a few other sites.
    </div></div>

    I looked at a SBR Kriss just for shits and grins. I figured it would be pretty neat for a suppressor host.

    Then I realized it wouldn't do anything my G21 can't.