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Gunsmithing Legal question about pin & weld

Jmccracken1214

Jmccracken1214

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    • Dec 10, 2018
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    Thomasville, NC
    Ive been calling shops around me, trying to find someone local that will pin & weld and doesnt charge $120+ like one store near me....

    I called a shop today and the owner told me, as long as the brake thats on the weapon makes the barrel 16" or longer, it doesnt have to be pinned or welded to be legal.................................

    Doesn't seem to make since to me, but figured id ask?
     

    Is a rifle a firearm subject to the NFA? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

    A rifle is defined, in part, as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single...
    www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

    If it isn't at least 16" (permanently), a rifle falls under the NFA (needs stamp).
     
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    Unless if it classified as "Other Firearm"
     
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    Jmccracken1214 said:
    Ive been calling shops around me, trying to find someone local that will pin & weld and doesnt charge $120+ like one store near me....

    I called a shop today and the owner told me, as long as the brake thats on the weapon makes the barrel 16" or longer, it doesnt have to be pinned or welded to be legal.................................

    Doesn't seem to make since to me, but figured id ask?
    Click to expand...
    Stop doing business with that shop.

    Dudes a menace.
     
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    Reactions: Moby, Mj30wilson900, C-130 Dude and 3 others
    There are lots of quality shops that you can ship your barrel and break to for a pin and weld. Best to find a place that offers the service than willing to learn how to on your barrel.
     
    Look that up if I remember correctly it's pin and weld or high temp silver solder.
     
    W54/XM-388 said:
    If you have to pin and weld a brake on the rifle, is it really worth all the hassle and non-flexibility for 1.5" less length over just sticking with a 16" threaded barrel?
    Click to expand...
    I don’t have a 16” anymore but a friend does, and I can tell a small difference is the feel/balance. Plus, I like the looks of the barrel being more inside the handguard. With that said though, my next one will be 16” just so I don’t have to worry about it.

    I dropped it off at a very reputable gun store this morning. $45/hour, told me it’d probably be 2 hours, but worst case 3 hours tops. He told me he would finish building an AK today and get on mine tomorrow.
     
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    From chapter 2

    ATF National Firearms Act Handbook - Chapter 2 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

    www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

    The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
     
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    Waorani said:
    I just sent a bbl to ADCO w/ basic FH - cost $30 + ride both ways (~$60 total).
    Click to expand...
    I removed one of their pin and weld jobs years ago. Before I started grinding the muzzle device off, I put a wrench on it out of curiosity. It spun right off. The pin didn’t even completely penetrate the device, let alone touch/penetrate the barrel. I contacted them to complain and their response was pretty much “oh well”.
     
    cas6969 said:
    I removed one of their pin and weld jobs years ago. Before I started grinding the muzzle device off, I put a wrench on it out of curiosity. It spun right off. The pin didn’t even completely penetrate the device, let alone touch/penetrate the barrel. I contacted them to complain and their response was pretty much “oh well”.
    Click to expand...
    This is why the whole thing is dumb and completely retarded. We have several KAC SBRs at work (12.5” obviously not pinned). Had another upper 14.5 come in a while later, boss asked me to switch out the FH on the rifle (in my defense the 14.5 upper was on an SBR lower) I didn’t get around to until latter in the week and I told him the 14.5” was done.

    He paused and said “the 14.5? I mentioned the 12.5….isn’t that 14.5 pinned and welded?”

    I had even bothered to check 😂 I remember i was only a single cup of coffee into the day and only seemed to have a little extra resistance.

    So turns out a pinned and weld muzzle device really doesn’t make much of a mechanical difference in stopping anyone from living free. I had shimmed and mounted the new FH without skipping a beat. We took it a part later and it definitely fuck the treads up but the FH and can an still sat concentric.

    My point is nobody knows how good of a job it is until you actually take a wrench to it. I am not saying don’t do it, just say it’s dumb.
     
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    The ATF requires an intent to follow the law, not destruction testing afterwards.

    Gunsmiths do not want to break the law, but are weary not to over do it and risk accuracy issues either.
     
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    Old Man with Gun said:
    The ATF requires an intent to follow the law, not destruction testing afterwards.
    Click to expand...
    I hate to argue the point, but that's pretty much backwards of how the ATF states it position if you go to court.
    They are ALL about, well sure you meant to follow the law, but oops you tripped up on this and whamm...

    Don't be surprised if they were to bring a wrench into court and say look how easy you could just spin it off, that's not legit.
    You best have good lawyers when going up against them.
     
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    Is there any specific cases you can point to? I have only limited experience with ATF agents, but the few I have interacted with were nothing like that and I have never once heard of someone being prosecuted for a bad pin and weld job.
     
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    ADCO has done several things for me over the years and I've never had an issue. Does something occasionally slip through the cracks? Probably. But do I lay awake worrying about stuff like that? Hell no. The paranoia runs deep here though.
     
    Waorani said:
    ADCO has done several things for me over the years and I've never had an issue. Does something occasionally slip through the cracks? Probably. But do I lay awake worrying about stuff like that? Hell no. The paranoia runs deep here though.
    Click to expand...
    Very true! Mention smoking pot or cutting corners on pin and weld job and WAM! Everyone gets their panties in a wad!

    I have done neither though.
     
    JimmyJr said:
    Very true! Mention smoking pot or cutting corners on pin and weld job and WAM! Everyone gets their panties in a wad!

    I have done neither though.
    Click to expand...

    Because that's the kind of stuff the ATF and the FBI WILL use to nail you if they have orders to put the boots to you and can't find anything better and don't have time to or screw up when planting the normal child abuse material package on your computer / phone.

    It's not paranoia when you know they are out to get you.
     
    Do ya want to save $40 or do you want it done properly? Not mine, just a picture taken off the interweb. Pay the money AFTER you check out their quality.

    zz01.jpg
     
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    W54/XM-388 said:
    Because that's the kind of stuff the ATF and the FBI WILL use to nail you if they have orders to put the boots to you and can't find anything better and don't have time to or screw up when planting the normal child abuse material package on your computer / phone.

    It's not paranoia when you know they are out to get you.
    Click to expand...
    True, guess we have to just look at events from the past day to see that is where we are at.
     
    W54/XM-388 said:
    I hate to argue the point, but that's pretty much backwards of how the ATF states it position if you go to court.
    They are ALL about, well sure you meant to follow the law, but oops you tripped up on this and whamm...

    Don't be surprised if they were to bring a wrench into court and say look how easy you could just spin it off, that's not legit.
    You best have good lawyers when going up against them.
    Click to expand...

    You won't be going up against "them." The United States will be represented by an Assistant U.S. Attorney--who works for the Department of Justice. The ATF is not a party and won't be at the table.
     
    Downzero said:
    You won't be going up against "them." The United States will be represented by an Assistant U.S. Attorney--who works for the Department of Justice. The ATF is not a party and won't be at the table.
    Click to expand...

    So there won't be any ATF agents showing up to explain to the Jury how evil you are during the trial?
     
    I agree that the ATF is unlikely to prosecute someone just for a bad pin-and-weld job. As I've pointed out before, NFA convictions tend to be auxiliary charges to other criminal behavior.

    That being said, I definitely wouldn't be playing a game of Fuck Around, Find Out at this moment in history, especially not with something so easy to get right as a pin-and-weld job.

    1) Drill the muzzle device. Pick a spot that you can find later if you wish to undo the process. (Drilling at the 6 o'clock position with a 1/8" hole located 0.1875 from the back face is my preference.)

    2) Degrease everything and install the muzzle device and torque to final spec.

    3) Run a 1/8" end mill back through the hole and into the barrel threads.

    4) Drop in a 1/8" pin, mark the desired length with a scribe, remove, and cut to length.

    5) Prep the area around the pin hole for welding. Fancy coatings turn into contamination at TIG temperatures. Don't go overboard and strip half the brake.

    6) Insert the little nub of a pin back into the hole (probably after dropping it on the floor and losing it behind a workbench leg), and cover it with a small weld. You should have heat on it for a few seconds.

    It almost takes longer to type that out than it does to do the work... unless you're one of those "artists" who thinks that good gunsmithing requires coffee breaks about every 45 seconds followed by a rant about how the space alien lizard people killed the Kennedy brothers to help LBJ get the '68 GCA passed.
     
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    W54/XM-388 said:
    So there won't be any ATF agents showing up to explain to the Jury how evil you are during the trial?
    Click to expand...
    I don't know who the witnesses will be and nor do you. But the "internet mafia" view that the ATF is some sort of evil people who are out to get you is asinine. The vast majority of federal crimes involving gun charges come on top of other crimes (e.g., drug trafficking) and not on their own. And often times those cases are not investigated by the ATF in any significant capacity or at all. So the more realistic answer to your question is probably not. An FBI agent or HSI or some other alphabet agency is vastly more likely unless you've somehow brought undue attention to yourself flouting the gun laws and the U.S. Attorney or his assistants take some particular interest in you. Otherwise the gun charges are likely to be an "also ran" with all the other charges you're facing, investigated by DEA, FBI, HSI, or maybe even a local/state law enforcement agency.
     
    E. Bryant said:
    I agree that the ATF is unlikely to prosecute someone just for a bad pin-and-weld job. As I've pointed out before, NFA convictions tend to be auxiliary charges to other criminal behavior.
    Click to expand...

    To be clear, the ATF doesn't prosecute anyone. And even if they WANTED someone prosecuted for some sort of technical violation like this, it's extremely unlikely that any AUSA would take the case. Like you say, these charges tend to be added onto other criminal cases (often investigated by other agencies, addressed by my other post).

    I also agree that it'd be stupid not to comply with the law just because you think that it's unlikely you'll be prosecuted, because the punishment is (potentially) extreme for a set of tasks that only takes a few minutes to do right.

    I have never silver soldered a muzzle device but I wonder if that is easier anyway, or even should be done as a belt and suspenders thing.
     
    Downzero said:
    To be clear, the ATF doesn't prosecute anyone. And even if they WANTED someone prosecuted for some sort of technical violation like this, it's extremely unlikely that any AUSA would take the case. Like you say, these charges tend to be added onto other criminal cases (often investigated by other agencies, addressed by my other post).

    I also agree that it'd be stupid not to comply with the law just because you think that it's unlikely you'll be prosecuted, because the punishment is (potentially) extreme for a set of tasks that only takes a few minutes to do right.

    I have never silver soldered a muzzle device but I wonder if that is easier anyway, or even should be done as a belt and suspenders thing.
    Click to expand...

    Noted, and thanks for the clarification (although I'm certain to make the same mistake again).

    Silver solder will take roughly the same amount of time to prep and perform, but does require more heat to be put into the barrel and muzzle device - probably not a factor in any of the hardware I have on-hand. I'd do it if I didn't have the appropriate tools for drilling and welding available.
     
    E. Bryant said:
    Silver solder will take roughly the same amount of time to prep and perform, but does require more heat to be put into the barrel and muzzle device - probably not a factor in any of the hardware I have on-hand. I'd do it if I didn't have the appropriate tools for drilling and welding available.
    Click to expand...

    I pinned and welded mine myself as well (years ago, long since forgot about it until this post) but I wondered that about the silver solder, if you'd be giving up any accuracy or potentially warping the barrel.
     
    Heating a barrel enough to solder can cause serious accuracy issues. Even welding the pin in the wrong way and overheating it can do the same.

    I will only use a Tig welding.

    If you cryogenically treat, pin before.
     
    Could just spend $80 more and make it an SBR and not have to worry about it.
     
    When Form 1 times were much longer before current Eform1 dwell times I would P&W while paperwork was in the BATFE queue, I would drill the muzzle device 1/8" pin hole on the mill, assemble the muzzle to barrel, lightly create a detent in the barrel threads, use correct length undersized dowel pins, countersink a small area for TIG weld pool on top of pin, clean up threads with tap. The pin & weld is easily released with the mill when your paperwork arrives.

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    Jmccracken1214 said:
    Ive been calling shops around me, trying to find someone local that will pin & weld and doesnt charge $120+ like one store near me....

    I called a shop today and the owner told me, as long as the brake thats on the weapon makes the barrel 16" or longer, it doesnt have to be pinned or welded to be legal.................................

    Doesn't seem to make since to me, but figured id ask?
    Click to expand...
    just send it to d. wilson and have it done right and for a reasonable price
     
    Jmccracken1214 said:
    He told me on the phone that S&W was known for making 13.5" AR barrels and putting 2.5" flash hiders on them and they werent pinned... so thats why he told me I was legal to do this lol.
    Click to expand...
    As long as s&w is not shipping a complete firearm with that barrel then it is possible for them to do that and it is up to you when you install that barrel to abide by all the laws. You can buy a ar pistol barrel that is 10” or a ar upper that has a 8 “ barrel or shorter separately it is legal. Because the end consumer may have a pistol lower. But if you stick it on a rifle lower you better have a tax stamp.
     
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