Lesson learned, appreciate the PM
- Thread starter obx22
- Start date
I got one from Seekonk sold via Brownells comes certified.
You can also order direct from Seekonk
1-75 INCH POUND VARIABLE TORQUE WRENCH : SEEKONK PRECISION TOOLS 1 TO 75 INCH POUND VARIABLE TORQUE WRENCH | Shop Brownells
1-75 INCH POUND VARIABLE TORQUE WRENCH Chrome-plated, high-alloy steel, variable-dial torque wrench lets you see the exact amount of inch pounds you’re applying. ...
shop.brownells.com
You can also order direct from Seekonk
I am being nosy here, what are you torquing that requires decimal values in inch pounds?
My bad....didn't realize we needed fractional inch pounds.
The one I showed I guess you could go between scale marks for .5 or sub half for .25.
At +\- 3% accuracy it wouldn't matter.
For something to measure inch pounds at fractional amounts and to have an accuracy rating to make it legit you must ask NASA what they use and pay accordingly.
The one I showed I guess you could go between scale marks for .5 or sub half for .25.
At +\- 3% accuracy it wouldn't matter.
For something to measure inch pounds at fractional amounts and to have an accuracy rating to make it legit you must ask NASA what they use and pay accordingly.
Given the variation in thread friction and the resultant effect upon turning torque, attempts to achieve this sort of precision (<1%) will be random rolls of the dice at best.
Agreed that your time is better spent improving the action-stock bedding as to decrease the sensitivity of the system to tightening torque.
Agreed that your time is better spent improving the action-stock bedding as to decrease the sensitivity of the system to tightening torque.
He's not wrong......
Torque is just a convenient approximation for what really matters: fastener tension.
So if you want to get down to brass tacks, get ready to pay: https://www.checkline.com/bolt_tension_meters/ti-minimax
Oh and the price does not include the knowledge needed to understand what it tells you.
You missed the larger point. You can't control torque as repeatably as you think you can no matter what tool you use.
Some of us are telling you what we're telling you because this is an area of professional expertise.
If you want to go down the rabbit hole, I gave you a direction of where to look. But make sure you get educated or its easy to misunderstand the data you're getting. And just like in any engineering subdiscipline, the details run deep........
I tuned my M40.......
This rifle was bedded by Gap and playing with torque did make a difference.
I went in 5 inch pound increments and still got dramatic results.
I don't think I can improve on what I ended up with. It still shoots as well and I have had it out of the stock.
I have a similar rifle in .223 and out of laziness use the same torque values and I am happy with the results.
Do you play with bullet jump?
I think once you get your basic torque you should play with your ammo as your returns on a .25 inch pound setting will not be as dramatic.
Torque Test - M40rifle.com
The later model M40's come from the builder with a book that states what the proper action torque is. Doesnt mean its right but at least there is a deffinitive
www.m40rifle.com
This rifle was bedded by Gap and playing with torque did make a difference.
I went in 5 inch pound increments and still got dramatic results.
I don't think I can improve on what I ended up with. It still shoots as well and I have had it out of the stock.
I have a similar rifle in .223 and out of laziness use the same torque values and I am happy with the results.
Do you play with bullet jump?
I think once you get your basic torque you should play with your ammo as your returns on a .25 inch pound setting will not be as dramatic.
How are you testing each torque value - with something like a 6x5, or is it more like tossing three rounds downrange and then move onto the next 0.25 in-lb step?
And when you make a change, are you backing off the bolts, or just snugging them up from the previous value?
What's the best 5- or 10-shot group that you've shot at any torque value? Could you go put that torque value on the action screws right now and recreate that target?
And when you make a change, are you backing off the bolts, or just snugging them up from the previous value?
What's the best 5- or 10-shot group that you've shot at any torque value? Could you go put that torque value on the action screws right now and recreate that target?
You know damn well that you are not yet done with this thread
You pull me back in......................damn you
I did. Everything I read about it describes how to adjust a barrel tuner which is a weight on the barrel.
Nowhere did I see anything related to adjusting how tight the action screws are.
Remember that torque wrenches need to be calibrated regularly and I've never even seen a way to calibrate that gets the accuracy that you're looking for.
And then we get into thread quality on the action and action screws...
Oh, and then how are you monitoring wear on the action screws and action threading since you are essentially lapping them.
Or, maybe increasing the torque required to overcome minor galling of the threads.
You're not using lube on the threads, right?
You do know that overcoming friction is where the greatest portion of your torque setting is used? Something on the order of 10% is applied to the actual clamping force. The other 90%, overcoming friction of threads and fastener heads.
Dry threads, lubed threads, thread quality and a whole bunch of other things come into play with torque.
Did I mention torque wrench accuracy? +/- 3% is pretty common.
Using the wrench in the middle of its range vs the upper and lower 10-20% will give you more consistent results.
Experiment if you want, but if you don't have the proper tools or knowledge, what are you gaining?
Oh, and then how are you monitoring wear on the action screws and action threading since you are essentially lapping them.
Or, maybe increasing the torque required to overcome minor galling of the threads.
You're not using lube on the threads, right?
You do know that overcoming friction is where the greatest portion of your torque setting is used? Something on the order of 10% is applied to the actual clamping force. The other 90%, overcoming friction of threads and fastener heads.
Dry threads, lubed threads, thread quality and a whole bunch of other things come into play with torque.
Did I mention torque wrench accuracy? +/- 3% is pretty common.
Using the wrench in the middle of its range vs the upper and lower 10-20% will give you more consistent results.
Experiment if you want, but if you don't have the proper tools or knowledge, what are you gaining?
You pull me back in......................damn you
You couldnt have stayed away even if it was populated with pictures of Nancy Pelosis gash.
I have never torque tested my McMillan stocks I just set them at 65 inch pounds and forget it. Reality is they may benefit from some tweaking but I would never exceed the 65 inch pounds.
Testing my GAP bedded Mawhinney M40 is probably useless as it has pillars. Still its wood so I went for it. My 1903s may benefit more from it but even than if it is 35 inch pounds on one day the humidity level on the next day may make it more or less.
Your effort has some merit but I dont think it requires the measure of settings you seek.
She is working on her technique....everything is falling apart so she cant keep the "aperture" open long enough to develope the film....
Artist uses her vagina to take photos of men
A Woman's Right To Pleasure is an erotic assortment of artwork and essays produced in New York which celebrates female pleasure, compiled as an 'act of resistance', its author told the Guardian.
I was asking a question for clarification because I can't read your mind.
Personally, IDGAF what you do.
I tried to educate a little about your idea to read torque in very finite increments. Do with that information what you will.
Now I'm really out.
OP
Please take advice and stop fighting facts..
In general torque instruments ar 5x min to max and calibration is 4%
So 15 to 75in lbs and +- 2.0 in lbs is about it
You might get NASA grade instrument at 2% But that is still 1.0 +-for 50 in lbs.
Lastly good in-lb (small) value torque tools are expensive and typically worse on a % basis when certified than larger ones... ie 4-6% vs 2-4%
People have been hinting this to you, but you clearly dont know what you dont know
So first thing is you need to get up to speed a bit on the subject
Lastly ill reiterate a the point that torque ( even if you coul get fine resolution) isnt even the thing that matters...
Torque is a 'proxy' (loosely correlated) variable for the real thing of interest... bolt stretch or tension.. .
Asking for .1 in lbs is pointless when that instrumented value isnt certifiable, and even if it was, the values dont translate to bolt stretch with enough quality to make good use of that resulution.
Dont let this dissuade you from doing you own research, but do use it to set or manage expectations, and be mindful of your findings in this context.
If ya wanna spend the money, here's the wrench you'll need:
www.mcmaster.com
Hope ya prove everyone wrong with 5x6 targets to prove it, but good luck!
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Hope ya prove everyone wrong with 5x6 targets to prove it, but good luck!
If ya wanna spend the money, here's the wrench you'll need:
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Hope ya prove everyone wrong with 5x6 targets to prove it, but good luck!
If it really mattered ....buy two or three than average the readings by the number of wrenches bought......only way to be sure.....more wrenches mo better.
I think I was the only one that referenced GAP in regards to the MaWhinney commemorative M40 over run I did my stock testing on.....those are sweet rifles and the bedding is beautifully done.
The two GAP rifles that I had to help troubleshoot were both surprisingly not the best examples of bedding work that I have seen. For the price that the owners paid, I expected better.
That said, I've bedded several rifles - my first two- that looked like utter garbage but shot well and could be disassembled and reassembled with hardly any measurable performance variation.
As for torque wrench absurdities and rat holes, I was a spacesuit and life support systems tech for while near the end of the last century. We only used frequently-calibrated, aircraft maintenance-grade, Snap-On wrenches.
If a mechanical system using tension fasteners is designed correctly and the parts are in good shape there should be no performance variations after disassembly and reassembly.
-Use good fasteners and replace them if necessary
-clean and inspect all contact or mating surfaces
-lubricate if designed to be lubricated, lock if designed to be locked
- proceed slowly
- repeatable technique is underestimated and rare
Just for kicks, you might want to look into newer bicycling related torque wrenches or even medical device torque wrenches if you want to go off the deep end.
At that point you'll be in the weeds so deep that you might as well sign up for bench rest comps.
Lastly, maybe try this...... put some modeling clay onto your stock at the contact points with the action -basically, where the bedding should be. Tighten your action to spec and then remove it and look at the contact points again. All or most of the clay should have been displaced. If not, you have gaps.
That said, I've bedded several rifles - my first two- that looked like utter garbage but shot well and could be disassembled and reassembled with hardly any measurable performance variation.
As for torque wrench absurdities and rat holes, I was a spacesuit and life support systems tech for while near the end of the last century. We only used frequently-calibrated, aircraft maintenance-grade, Snap-On wrenches.
If a mechanical system using tension fasteners is designed correctly and the parts are in good shape there should be no performance variations after disassembly and reassembly.
-Use good fasteners and replace them if necessary
-clean and inspect all contact or mating surfaces
-lubricate if designed to be lubricated, lock if designed to be locked
- proceed slowly
- repeatable technique is underestimated and rare
Just for kicks, you might want to look into newer bicycling related torque wrenches or even medical device torque wrenches if you want to go off the deep end.
At that point you'll be in the weeds so deep that you might as well sign up for bench rest comps.
Lastly, maybe try this...... put some modeling clay onto your stock at the contact points with the action -basically, where the bedding should be. Tighten your action to spec and then remove it and look at the contact points again. All or most of the clay should have been displaced. If not, you have gaps.
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Thank you, that‘ll likely serve the purpose 
If ya wanna spend the money, here's the wrench you'll need:
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Hope ya prove everyone wrong with 5x6 targets to prove it, but good luck!
Nope, just a guy helping a friend
Re: NASA, I was at Ames...in Mtn View, CA
I only learned recently that early gen, and up until recently, Life support suits were built in Worcester, MA.
With that in mind seeing Elon Musks suits shocked me as something fake....
topic for a PM or its own thread. I don't want to screw up OPs post.
With that in mind seeing Elon Musks suits shocked me as something fake....
topic for a PM or its own thread. I don't want to screw up OPs post.
This is the stuff that matters, even after you have the right tools.
As for the Op
Correlation and causation are repeatedly confused. Until you start with calibrated test data, you have no idea what the real data is... even a 1% wrench at 50 in lbs is barely capable of resolving true 1.0 in lb variation... 49.4 and 50.4 are 49.9+-1%
So the claim one has already measured reliably in a casual experiment with uncalibrated 4-6% ( eg even normal snap on) torque tools is suspect.
Nobody is saying its wrong, its just very likely noisy data an needs work. Which is fine reason to start this thread..
Just listen to the people telling you that torque is hard to measure, and its hard to make strong inferences about non- torque things based on torque data.
The exception to this is systems engineered around specific torque ranges. But those systems are typically go/ no go. They are not continuous performance functions where torque alone is the optimizing varable...
Fuck it let's get this thread derailed
ILC-Dover made all the spacesuits for the Apollo program except the Block I suits which were made by D-C.
David-Clark made all the Gemini suits
I think D-C also made all the Space Shuttle orange suits.
The SpaceX suits are rad
ETA: David-Clark FTW in Red Bull Stratos
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Sir, can you please clear your 649 notifications?
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