Range Report Let it die
- Thread starter onesureshot
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Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
Well, the first blow against credibility is the "...extreme spread [ES] of bullet length of .440"..." I'm sorry but even a chimp making bullets out of termites won't have units that vary almost half an inch in length. Even assuming the writer made an honest error and meant .0440 or something like that, it doesn't seem like the error would be linear (.37" per every 200 yards) but would increase much more dramatically at longer distances (as most errors/effects induce on bullet flight).
I have never shot Bergers so I'm not defending or condemning them, just expressing some skepticism.
Well, the first blow against credibility is the "...extreme spread [ES] of bullet length of .440"..." I'm sorry but even a chimp making bullets out of termites won't have units that vary almost half an inch in length. Even assuming the writer made an honest error and meant .0440 or something like that, it doesn't seem like the error would be linear (.37" per every 200 yards) but would increase much more dramatically at longer distances (as most errors/effects induce on bullet flight).
I have never shot Bergers so I'm not defending or condemning them, just expressing some skepticism.
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
this guy is not worth the time i just wasted reading his rant.
You want good ballistic DAta on Bergers and their competitor go look at Bryn Litz's recent book offering. He had range proven data in his book, in both G1 and G7 for most bullets that he analyzed.
JeffVN
this guy is not worth the time i just wasted reading his rant.
You want good ballistic DAta on Bergers and their competitor go look at Bryn Litz's recent book offering. He had range proven data in his book, in both G1 and G7 for most bullets that he analyzed.
JeffVN
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onesureshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend sent me this in an email that he got from one of his friends. Knowing there are people here with far more knowledge on the subject than myself, I thought I would post it here to see what kind of feedback it generated.
I will say that given the fuss that Berger created with Barnes a while back, I was a bit surprised to read this. One would think they would have had their ducks in a row before casting the stone.
<span style="color: #000099">Gents: I have been computing errors using Berger VLD [Very Low Drag] bullets and much like our Unemployment figures it appears as if the selling is more important than the telling....And truth is the first causality. I have loaded some VLD’s and noticed that they all were showing a different OAL [overall length], this while I am using a Redding Competition Bullet seater...I did the anal thing and measured 100 Berger 7mm 180gr VLD’s and I got an extreme spread [ES] of bullet length of .440”....I did the same with Sierra 7mm 175gr HPBT and got an ES of .124. Clearly the Sierra’s were length QC’d at an improvement over the Bergers of nearly 75%. I used Robert McCoy’s graduate level book “Modern External Ballistics” and tediously estimated the expected statistical error induced only from bullet shape variation at high MACH#’s [MACH 2.5 to be exact] and estimated [admittedly worst case] an induced error of .37” at 200 yds using the VLD’s....This equates to an accumulated error at 1000 yds of nearly 1.5 inches [4X.37 stepping out to 1000 yds], and I cannot predict the direction only the magnitude of statistical error from the intended point of aim.....I know that there will be other factors to consider[spin drift, wind, operator SNAFU’s etc]...but the mechanical error induced by bullet QC alone is too great in my view.....True if you were shooting game at 1000 yds this may not matter but targets are another matter all together.....The guru’s at Berger are in my view lying to the target shooters and the packaging using VLD is a marketing scam but one that until now has gone unchallenged. The discrepancy really shows when you know that Berger has chosen to market a 7mm 180GR non-VLD bullet that has shown to be a higher BC bullet than their marketed VLD....Until folks were shooting these bullets at 1000yds this did not show up...Or it was not detectable. No wonder the Berger folks are staking out the big 1000yd shoots....PR SPIN means $’s
I notified a fellow 6mm BRX shooter who is competing at 600yds and gave him my numbers and indicated that the assumptions I made using my 7mm may not properly scale to the 6mm. Since there are some heavy duty target shooters using the 6PPC/6 BR ect there is a great deal of empirical info to be had out there. My predictions using my 7mm data suggested that the 6mm VLD’s would [if the same QC persist] show a .75” induced error at 600yds....The same inability to predict direction would exist....Without fore knowledge[on my part] the 6mm guys shooting Berger VLD’s validated my caluclations. If those 6mm’s were QC’d at an order of magnitude greater level then their induced mechanical error would only be .07”[Less than 1/10th of an inch-seriously acceptable in my view]...Interestingly, the 6mm VLD produced fliers that expanded groups, and left the shooters unexplainable but clearly expected variations that have not been challenged. When the 6mm guys use a non-VLD 6mm design the groups are less open giving a more “round’ appearance [their words not mine].
Berger is marketing their VLD’s in both 6 and 7mm as dual use bullets capable of both target and hunting applications. I challenge this notion because a target bullet design is completely different from a game bullet design [I cite inbore engraving deformations and terminal expansion performance on intended game very different design specs]....At any rate I have the 6BR guys thinking! They posed a query to Eric Stedaker(sic) of VP Sales, Berger Bullets in effect: Are your QC criteria the same for 6mm tgt or game bullets? No answer---in fact crickets...
I am not sad for the 6mm pukes there are a lot of 6mm tgt bullets out there, but now I am left to find a suitable 7mm bullet for 1000yds.....I expect to look to bullet pointing to build my future puts into the tgt world....Any advice you care to offer would be taken into future shooting plans.....See bullettipping.com for some practical info....I know that small meplats on small bullets produce large % of BC improvement so what % of improvement is worth the costs of bullet working in both time and $’s...I will eventually answer this question, statistically...But not just now!!
This is how retired farts use their unlimited time to investigate AR issues......BE WELL....V/r mk PS Heading for Penna next week to see my folks....and shovel snow!
</span></div></div>
reading that just gave me a headache.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onesureshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend sent me this in an email that he got from one of his friends. Knowing there are people here with far more knowledge on the subject than myself, I thought I would post it here to see what kind of feedback it generated.
I will say that given the fuss that Berger created with Barnes a while back, I was a bit surprised to read this. One would think they would have had their ducks in a row before casting the stone.
<span style="color: #000099">Gents: I have been computing errors using Berger VLD [Very Low Drag] bullets and much like our Unemployment figures it appears as if the selling is more important than the telling....And truth is the first causality. I have loaded some VLD’s and noticed that they all were showing a different OAL [overall length], this while I am using a Redding Competition Bullet seater...I did the anal thing and measured 100 Berger 7mm 180gr VLD’s and I got an extreme spread [ES] of bullet length of .440”....I did the same with Sierra 7mm 175gr HPBT and got an ES of .124. Clearly the Sierra’s were length QC’d at an improvement over the Bergers of nearly 75%. I used Robert McCoy’s graduate level book “Modern External Ballistics” and tediously estimated the expected statistical error induced only from bullet shape variation at high MACH#’s [MACH 2.5 to be exact] and estimated [admittedly worst case] an induced error of .37” at 200 yds using the VLD’s....This equates to an accumulated error at 1000 yds of nearly 1.5 inches [4X.37 stepping out to 1000 yds], and I cannot predict the direction only the magnitude of statistical error from the intended point of aim.....I know that there will be other factors to consider[spin drift, wind, operator SNAFU’s etc]...but the mechanical error induced by bullet QC alone is too great in my view.....True if you were shooting game at 1000 yds this may not matter but targets are another matter all together.....The guru’s at Berger are in my view lying to the target shooters and the packaging using VLD is a marketing scam but one that until now has gone unchallenged. The discrepancy really shows when you know that Berger has chosen to market a 7mm 180GR non-VLD bullet that has shown to be a higher BC bullet than their marketed VLD....Until folks were shooting these bullets at 1000yds this did not show up...Or it was not detectable. No wonder the Berger folks are staking out the big 1000yd shoots....PR SPIN means $’s
I notified a fellow 6mm BRX shooter who is competing at 600yds and gave him my numbers and indicated that the assumptions I made using my 7mm may not properly scale to the 6mm. Since there are some heavy duty target shooters using the 6PPC/6 BR ect there is a great deal of empirical info to be had out there. My predictions using my 7mm data suggested that the 6mm VLD’s would [if the same QC persist] show a .75” induced error at 600yds....The same inability to predict direction would exist....Without fore knowledge[on my part] the 6mm guys shooting Berger VLD’s validated my caluclations. If those 6mm’s were QC’d at an order of magnitude greater level then their induced mechanical error would only be .07”[Less than 1/10th of an inch-seriously acceptable in my view]...Interestingly, the 6mm VLD produced fliers that expanded groups, and left the shooters unexplainable but clearly expected variations that have not been challenged. When the 6mm guys use a non-VLD 6mm design the groups are less open giving a more “round’ appearance [their words not mine].
Berger is marketing their VLD’s in both 6 and 7mm as dual use bullets capable of both target and hunting applications. I challenge this notion because a target bullet design is completely different from a game bullet design [I cite inbore engraving deformations and terminal expansion performance on intended game very different design specs]....At any rate I have the 6BR guys thinking! They posed a query to Eric Stedaker(sic) of VP Sales, Berger Bullets in effect: Are your QC criteria the same for 6mm tgt or game bullets? No answer---in fact crickets...
I am not sad for the 6mm pukes there are a lot of 6mm tgt bullets out there, but now I am left to find a suitable 7mm bullet for 1000yds.....I expect to look to bullet pointing to build my future puts into the tgt world....Any advice you care to offer would be taken into future shooting plans.....See bullettipping.com for some practical info....I know that small meplats on small bullets produce large % of BC improvement so what % of improvement is worth the costs of bullet working in both time and $’s...I will eventually answer this question, statistically...But not just now!!
This is how retired farts use their unlimited time to investigate AR issues......BE WELL....V/r mk PS Heading for Penna next week to see my folks....and shovel snow!
</span></div></div>
reading that just gave me a headache.
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend sent me this in an email that he got from one of his friends.</div></div>
I'm not even going to acknowledge anything in that post until this 'friend of a friend' has the balls to make statements like this public himself. I also think it's irresponsible for 'onesureshot' to make slanderous posts like this thru layers of anonymity.
If someone has a legitimate issue with Bergers QC, we want to know about it. There's nothing legitimate about a 'friend of a friend' basing dispersion calculations on .4"+ of bullet length variation. The rant seems to be a smear campaign by someone who got their feelings hurt in the Barnes exchange.
onesureshot, please introduce me to your 'friends friend'. I'd like to talk to him about this.
-Bryan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend sent me this in an email that he got from one of his friends.</div></div>
I'm not even going to acknowledge anything in that post until this 'friend of a friend' has the balls to make statements like this public himself. I also think it's irresponsible for 'onesureshot' to make slanderous posts like this thru layers of anonymity.
If someone has a legitimate issue with Bergers QC, we want to know about it. There's nothing legitimate about a 'friend of a friend' basing dispersion calculations on .4"+ of bullet length variation. The rant seems to be a smear campaign by someone who got their feelings hurt in the Barnes exchange.
onesureshot, please introduce me to your 'friends friend'. I'd like to talk to him about this.
-Bryan
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
It was not my intention to slander anybody by making this post, I was just looking for further input on something that was sent to me regarding a subject I am still trying to learn and understand.
I said in the original post, know there are people with far more knowledge on the subject than me here at the Hide, so I wanted to post it to get some feedback. I should have read it over a couple times before posting it and worded my post intro differently.
I apologize to everybody for the waste of bandwidth. Looking back at it, I did not even catch the "ES" measurement for what is listed, now that it has been pointed out I feel pretty dumb for not "seeing" that measurement for what it is.
Bryan I will contact you regarding this thread.
It was not my intention to slander anybody by making this post, I was just looking for further input on something that was sent to me regarding a subject I am still trying to learn and understand.
I said in the original post, know there are people with far more knowledge on the subject than me here at the Hide, so I wanted to post it to get some feedback. I should have read it over a couple times before posting it and worded my post intro differently.
I apologize to everybody for the waste of bandwidth. Looking back at it, I did not even catch the "ES" measurement for what is listed, now that it has been pointed out I feel pretty dumb for not "seeing" that measurement for what it is.
Bryan I will contact you regarding this thread.
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
I have shot Berger bullets and have found them to be pretty much as advertised!! I also shoot Sierra, Hornady and Lapua and find them to be the same so I am not a Berger advertiser.
Furthemore my soninlaw uses the 7mm Bergers for hunting in his 280 and he is very pleased with all of his "ONE SHOT" kills at out to 900yds on antelope, deer out to 600 and 700yds and elk at 400+ on in.
If your "Friend" doesn't think Bergers are good hunting bullets maybe he needs to watch the program "Best of the West" its a great show on longrange hunting where they have killed huge bull elk out to 900+yds with a 7MM mag with one shot. These guys are damn good at what they do and the bullets flat kill!!! So to your friend I throw the "BS" flag and stand by Berger bullets!!!!!
I have shot Berger bullets and have found them to be pretty much as advertised!! I also shoot Sierra, Hornady and Lapua and find them to be the same so I am not a Berger advertiser.
Furthemore my soninlaw uses the 7mm Bergers for hunting in his 280 and he is very pleased with all of his "ONE SHOT" kills at out to 900yds on antelope, deer out to 600 and 700yds and elk at 400+ on in.
If your "Friend" doesn't think Bergers are good hunting bullets maybe he needs to watch the program "Best of the West" its a great show on longrange hunting where they have killed huge bull elk out to 900+yds with a 7MM mag with one shot. These guys are damn good at what they do and the bullets flat kill!!! So to your friend I throw the "BS" flag and stand by Berger bullets!!!!!
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
Hey guys, I will admit I made a mistake in how I posted this, but please don't shoot the messenger.
I have sent a link to this thread to the friend that sent me the information, so it can be passed on to the writer.
Hey guys, I will admit I made a mistake in how I posted this, but please don't shoot the messenger.
I have sent a link to this thread to the friend that sent me the information, so it can be passed on to the writer.
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
I shoot Bergers regularly and the current advertised G7 ballistics from Litz are within 1/8 MOA at 1000 yards (i.e. dead on).
I shoot Bergers regularly and the current advertised G7 ballistics from Litz are within 1/8 MOA at 1000 yards (i.e. dead on).
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
This is a funny one, I shoot Berger VLD's and had to laugh when i read this .....
This is a funny one, I shoot Berger VLD's and had to laugh when i read this .....
Re: Interesting bullet / ballistics info
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onesureshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, I will admit I made a mistake in how I posted this, but please don't shoot the messenger. </div></div>
Then delete the contents in the first post. This is BS. Your title is even wrong, b/c there's no ballistics info or anything remotely intersting about this thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onesureshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, I will admit I made a mistake in how I posted this, but please don't shoot the messenger. </div></div>
Then delete the contents in the first post. This is BS. Your title is even wrong, b/c there's no ballistics info or anything remotely intersting about this thread.
