I would say that it really depends on what you are doing with it. For most hunting purposes, my Leica 1600 was plenty fine. For ELR shooting, the vectronix is a lot better. Given that a lot of people don't have a lot of money to spend on gear, a Leica 1600 CRF, a Swaro, or Bushnell ARC's are going to be plenty good inside 600 yards and out to 1,000 on larger, more reflective targets (though it might take a few more tries). Buy once, cry once, I know. But if I were choosing between putting money into a rifle or a scope and putting an extra grand into the rangefinder, I would probably put it into the other gear.
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I would say that it really depends on what you are doing with it. For most hunting purposes, my Leica 1600 was plenty fine. For ELR shooting, the vectronix is a lot better. Given that a lot of people don't have a lot of money to spend on gear, a Leica 1600 CRF, a Swaro, or Bushnell ARC's are going to be plenty good inside 600 yards and out to 1,000 on larger, more reflective targets (though it might take a few more tries). Buy once, cry once, I know. But if I were choosing between putting money into a rifle or a scope and putting an extra grand into the rangefinder, I would probably put it into the other gear.
RobertB and you both have very good points and as I have said I have the Bushnell G-Force 1300arc but this PLRF05?? or Terrapin is driving me Nuts, can anyone tell me what info comes up on its screen as in do you have to put data in it and it gives you info back or what happens because their web site is not helpful at all,
Blessin's John
http://релоадинг.рф/wp0/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/TERRAPIN_UserManual.pdf
The terrapin is above and beyond the best range finder for the price I have ever used, there is something to be said for having absolute confidence in a peice of hard wear.
The terrapin is above and beyond the best range finder for the price I have ever used, there is something to be said for having absolute confidence in a peice of hard wear.
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Any info on the bushnell legend 1200 arc I'm seeing a lot of good deals on cheapgoods.com there prices can not be beat they are usualy 100 bucks cheaper than any were elce for range finders and the bushnell legend 1200 as got my attention for 225 bucks
Thanks Mate, Now I see, So what it does is give you the corrected Slope Distance with Angle already Adjusted, But without the Angle or Drop being Displayed.
So what I need to think about is do I want a Range Finder with or without the Drop Info. Oh dear???
How did I ever win any comps, without LRFs, Mildot Masters or slope Dopers and now I have the G-Force and it is great but I want Military Grade equipment and with this I am still having to do it old school with cheat sheets,
Bleesin's John
PS, If Any of you Find My Sanity Please Send it Home
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No, Terrapin does not either detect or compensate for the angle. Therefore the "slope distance" the manual talks about is the "line of sight" distance (not the adjusted one), which, for the angle shooting you'd have to correct yourself.
Again, Terrapin gives you only the line-of-sight distance (no angle, no azimuth), but it does it much better than any other civilian rangefinder I touched.
No way. If it is ever found - the lucky one will surely adopt it for personal use.
No, Terrapin does not either detect or compensate for the angle. Therefore the "slope distance" the manual talks about is the "line of sight" distance (not the adjusted one), which, for the angle shooting you'd have to correct yourself.
Again, Terrapin gives you only the line-of-sight distance (no angle, no azimuth), but it does it much better than any other civilian rangefinder I touched.
No way. If it is ever found - the lucky one will surely adopt it for personal use.
But that means I have to learn about cosines and all them clever things, I wish they had given you a choice so with a setting for line of sight or compensated, Oh well.
Its nice to think of saving the planet by Recycling old junk
Man! We are good People,
John
Lots of good advice given, being on a tight budget I did too take the long way around, starting years ago with Bushnell Elite 1500, then Leica 800, then Leica 1200, then Leica 1600 (went through three of those until found one that was collimated properly), then Swaro, and finally ended up with Terrapin. For losses (money, time, and effort combined) I took along the way I probably could've already had brand new Vector's...
I did test and compare to just about everything else there was available - Zeisses (not Zeiss Halem though), Leica Geovids, Newcons, Steiners, Nikons, Leupys, Bushy ARCs, you name it... in sunshine and in drizzling rain or dusk, and in the end nothing could hold a candle to Vectronix in the 'below $2K' range.
Terrapin was even better than some of its more expensive brothers PLRF10/15 (probably due to the narrower beam), with my longest reading being about 4,5 km. Of course dedicated military units are way better, but for average shooter that's an overkill.
Having the knowledge I do today, I'd hold onto the old Bushy Elite 1500 until Terrapin came out, and save me a lot of $$$ and grief in between...
Shoot safe,
Gun_Slinger
I did test and compare to just about everything else there was available - Zeisses (not Zeiss Halem though), Leica Geovids, Newcons, Steiners, Nikons, Leupys, Bushy ARCs, you name it... in sunshine and in drizzling rain or dusk, and in the end nothing could hold a candle to Vectronix in the 'below $2K' range.
Terrapin was even better than some of its more expensive brothers PLRF10/15 (probably due to the narrower beam), with my longest reading being about 4,5 km. Of course dedicated military units are way better, but for average shooter that's an overkill.
Having the knowledge I do today, I'd hold onto the old Bushy Elite 1500 until Terrapin came out, and save me a lot of $$$ and grief in between...
Shoot safe,
Gun_Slinger
Well, if you can spring for a PLRF-25C (about $8K?), it will not only find and display the angle, but compute cosines and adjusted (horizontal and vertical!) distance for you - and it will provide target azimuth. Plus the option of passing it all via BlueTooth to your ballistic computer. With the given data you could also call an airstrike or indirect fire.
John, you bet!Its nice to think of saving the planet by Recycling old junk
Man! We are good People,
John
Well, if you can spring for a PLRF-25C (about $8K?), it will not only find and display the angle, but compute cosines and adjusted (horizontal and vertical!) distance for you - and it will provide target azimuth. Plus the option of passing it all via BlueTooth to your ballistic computer. With the given data you could also call an airstrike or indirect fire.
John, you bet!
Airstikes, Indirect Fire ??? Does anyone wanna buy a Kidney or a Liver going cheap.
Seriously though, I think your right because although I wont need it for the above I just want something that does adjust the LOS angles etc and the bluetooth is a nice touch too, I will see if they are available over here if not I may have to travel to get one.,
I can range things with my scope or Binos and I get within 2-4 yards most of the time and with the help of the Mildot Master it confirms the result, but unknown targets really mess things up,
Thanks again, John
Well, I for one could certainly use a spare liver, since the primary one gets too heavy a workout metabolizing all those ethanol-based products.
The main reason I didn't go for 25C myself was its cost (but of course). I just wouldn't have enough tears to cry if instead of $2K I'd spend $8K.
The logic was: "get the worst of the best rather than the best of the worst".
I can range things with my scope - but unfortunately not anywhere near to what Terrapin can. And as you pointed out yourself - targets of unknown size do mess things up.
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Well, I for one could certainly use a spare liver, since the primary one gets too heavy a workout metabolizing all those ethanol-based products.
The main reason I didn't go for 25C myself was its cost (but of course). I just wouldn't have enough tears to cry if instead of $2K I'd spend $8K.
The logic was: "get the worst of the best rather than the best of the worst".
I can range things with my scope - but unfortunately not anywhere near to what Terrapin can. As as you pointed out yourself - targets of unknown size do mess things up.
The trouble now is I just up upgraded to the pro version of the Apps I have been using, The free version and the +versions numbers matched my LRF But the Pro Versions numbers are lower as In FT LBs and the MOAs have gone down a little so now I need something that I can trust, So which ever Laser I need weather I like the price or not I am going to have to get it, and all because I wanted to have the Coriolis and Spin Drift features, I wish I had not bothered now,
John
John, I'm not sure I follow. Could you perhaps share the apps you were using, and maybe the input parameters? I'd like to run your numbers on the apps I have.
As for SD and Coriolis - my view is:
As for SD and Coriolis - my view is:
- Lowlight is correct - until one learns well how to shoot (the "fundamentals" issue) and is consistent "enough" with the rifle, it doesn't matter much whether his POA is mathematically correct (and accounts for everything predictable), or not.
- On the other hand, human errors notwithstanding - some variables are 100% predictable, and there is no reason to avoid accounting for them, especially when all it costs is checking one or two boxes in the application configuration page. Sure, I may miss (hope not, though! ). But at least I'd know I missed against the correct POA.
John, I'm not sure I follow. Could you perhaps share the apps you were using, and maybe the input parameters? I'd like to run your numbers on the apps I have.
As for SD and Coriolis - my view is:
- Lowlight is correct - until one learns well how to shoot (the "fundamentals" issue) and is consistent "enough" with the rifle, it doesn't matter much whether his POA is mathematically correct (and accounts for everything predictable), or not.
- On the other hand, human errors notwithstanding - some variables are 100% predictable, and there is no reason to avoid accounting for them, especially when all it costs is checking one or two boxes in the application configuration page. Sure, I may miss (hope not, though!
Yeah sure, well the first one was the free version of Strelok and it was good so I bought Strelok+ then after many threads here talked of SD and Coriolis Today I bought Strelok Pro and now all my saved data does not match and a while back I bought BulletFlight and that seems to have a mind of its Own, Now I am not game to use any of them,
John
I've played with the Bushnell and the Leica. Hadn't played with a Terrapin until this weekend. It wins hands down. Its easy to use, dead on and it just works.
Looks like we're diverging off-topic!
BulletFlight should be pretty good - it was the first app I used. It served me well up to 950m - the longest I shot (and hit) so far, as validated by Bushnell Fusion 1600... I especially like its simplicity, and the fact that it is measurement system-agnostic. You can enter temperature in Celsius (in the right field, of course), distance in meters, and bullet speed (MV) in fps - and it all computes nicely. No other application I've tried has that level of convenience. The best some other apps do is allowing you to choose the system for individual parameters at configuration time. It is quite good, but what Bullet Flight is doing here is better (IMHO). I haven't turned Coriolis correction on in Bullet Flight (didn't want to bother with target azimuth) - but always had it accounting for Spin Drift (see above - because it costs nothing, except delays the answer by a few microseconds ).
Strelok is reasonably fine, users in Russia swear by it. I don't know if it's better than Bullet Flight. The ability provided by Strelok Pro to construct your own drag curve is great. But the "plain" (free) Strelok only allows one ballistic coefficient, and G1 at that. I don't know what magic programs like FFS do (and what other information about the bullet they store or know) in order to correctly compute the trajectory over a long distance. But Strelok (free) is not in that league.
Overall I found Ballistic AE (formerly Ballistic FTE) to me much more convenient (than Strelok/Strelok Pro/Senior Pro) from UI point of view, and quite accurate. Not to mention the ability to compare performance of multiple rounds in multiple calibers on a single graph. And it is very accurate.
Shooter is comparable to Ballistic AE. It has some advantages (e.g., ability to read the weather directly from your Kestrel via BlueTooth on Android), and some disadvantages (it allows comparison between different rounds of the same caliber/rifle only, which is not good enough for me at all).
For quick-n-dirty I usually use BulletFlight, for its quickness to setup and configure for any rifle/round/weather/target. For something requiring more thought (and offering more time) it's either Ballistic AE (especially if I carry iPhone with me), or Shooter (if I carry an Android device ). I seldom use Strelok/iStrelok, mostly because I prefer working in both metric (distance, temperature) and imperial units (velocity, barometric pressure), and Strelok fails me miserably there. I talked to Igor Borisov (author of Strelok), and his reply basically was "it does not make sense". OK, so I don't need Strelok, in view of so many good ballistic calculators available for any platform you can think of.
BulletFlight should be pretty good - it was the first app I used. It served me well up to 950m - the longest I shot (and hit
) so far, as validated by Bushnell Fusion 1600... I especially like its simplicity, and the fact that it is measurement system-agnostic. You can enter temperature in Celsius (in the right field, of course), distance in meters, and bullet speed (MV) in fps - and it all computes nicely. No other application I've tried has that level of convenience. The best some other apps do is allowing you to choose the system for individual parameters at configuration time. It is quite good, but what Bullet Flight is doing here is better (IMHO). I haven't turned Coriolis correction on in Bullet Flight (didn't want to bother with target azimuth) - but always had it accounting for Spin Drift (see above - because it costs nothing, except delays the answer by a few microseconds ).Strelok is reasonably fine, users in Russia swear by it. I don't know if it's better than Bullet Flight. The ability provided by Strelok Pro to construct your own drag curve is great. But the "plain" (free) Strelok only allows one ballistic coefficient, and G1 at that. I don't know what magic programs like FFS do (and what other information about the bullet they store or know) in order to correctly compute the trajectory over a long distance. But Strelok (free) is not in that league.
Overall I found Ballistic AE (formerly Ballistic FTE) to me much more convenient (than Strelok/Strelok Pro/Senior Pro) from UI point of view, and quite accurate. Not to mention the ability to compare performance of multiple rounds in multiple calibers on a single graph. And it is very accurate.
Shooter is comparable to Ballistic AE. It has some advantages (e.g., ability to read the weather directly from your Kestrel via BlueTooth on Android), and some disadvantages (it allows comparison between different rounds of the same caliber/rifle only, which is not good enough for me at all).
For quick-n-dirty I usually use BulletFlight, for its quickness to setup and configure for any rifle/round/weather/target. For something requiring more thought (and offering more time) it's either Ballistic AE (especially if I carry iPhone with me
), or Shooter (if I carry an Android device ). I seldom use Strelok/iStrelok, mostly because I prefer working in both metric (distance, temperature) and imperial units (velocity, barometric pressure), and Strelok fails me miserably there. I talked to Igor Borisov (author of Strelok), and his reply basically was "it does not make sense". OK, so I don't need Strelok, in view of so many good ballistic calculators available for any platform you can think of.
I have not met a Leica owner or user that hasn't love the way it functions.
Looks like we're diverging off-topic!
BulletFlight should be pretty good - it was the first app I used. It served me well up to 950m - the longest I shot (and hit
Strelok is reasonably fine, users in Russia swear by it. I don't know if it's better than Bullet Flight. The ability provided by Strelok Pro to construct your own drag curve is great. But the "plain" (free) Strelok only allows one ballistic coefficient, and G1 at that. I don't know what magic programs like FFS do (and what other information about the bullet they store or know) in order to correctly compute the trajectory over a long distance. But Strelok (free) is not in that league.
Overall I found Ballistic AE (formerly Ballistic FTE) to me much more convenient (than Strelok/Strelok Pro/Senior Pro) from UI point of view, and quite accurate. Not to mention the ability to compare performance of multiple rounds in multiple calibers on a single graph. And it is very accurate.
Shooter is comparable to Ballistic AE. It has some advantages (e.g., ability to read the weather directly from your Kestrel via BlueTooth on Android), and some disadvantages (it allows comparison between different rounds of the same caliber/rifle only, which is not good enough for me at all).
For quick-n-dirty I usually use BulletFlight, for its quickness to setup and configure for any rifle/round/weather/target. For something requiring more thought (and offering more time) it's either Ballistic AE (especially if I carry iPhone with me
Well the Strelok+ matches my LRF but this Strelok Pro is crazy, Its .5moa out at 881yds and for 2000yds????? it says I have 818.5fps with 223ftlbs with a drop of 2973.23 inches, When the Strelok+ version says I have 408.8fps with 55.7ftlbs with 4262.08 inches of drop, The + version matches my range finder but the PRO Version and Bullet flight dont so two out of the three are wrong somewhere, this is based on a .270 with BC.480 @2828fps and 0 Alt @29.92 AT 59.0 as per sighting in weather.
My LRF is the Bushnell G-Force 1300ARC which has always been Right so far and for the range of 881yds it says come up 27.1moa as does Strelok+
From What I now understand is that you dont need the SD/CE on these Apps because if you just Add or subtract those figures from/or Add to the solution then all is well.
John
John: Correct. Without getting into the ballistics/point-mass mathematics formulas and principles applied in the background (on which there are many experts here much more knowledgeable than me), if you cannot input the basic variables (twist rate and orientation, latitude, and azimuth toward target), it usually means that that software is not calculating SD/CE into the solution and you need to apply them manually afterwards.
ManBearPig: Agreed, the only trouble is that the Leica CRFs manufactured in Portugal had some major quality issues in the past few years, I've been to Leica HQs in Germany (btw - perfect customer service) and had my old CRF1600 replaced twice (poor collimation on two units with serial numbers quite a bit apart), but I'm still keeping my latest CRF1600 as a backup to Terrapin. The only downside to Terrapin that I felt (too low magnification for precise long range measurements) I cured using a Zeiss tripler (slip-on ocular - it's much smaller than Swaro doubler plus it's easy to put on/take off). Now it's perfect (5x for general off-hand ranging, and 15x for accurate distance ranging, usually leaning against something or using a support). I just wish it had the ability to range in between two objects out in the field as it's more expensive siblings do, but that just goes to prove that not only women are the ones never fully satisfied...
Gun_Slinger
ManBearPig: Agreed, the only trouble is that the Leica CRFs manufactured in Portugal had some major quality issues in the past few years, I've been to Leica HQs in Germany (btw - perfect customer service) and had my old CRF1600 replaced twice (poor collimation on two units with serial numbers quite a bit apart), but I'm still keeping my latest CRF1600 as a backup to Terrapin. The only downside to Terrapin that I felt (too low magnification for precise long range measurements) I cured using a Zeiss tripler (slip-on ocular - it's much smaller than Swaro doubler plus it's easy to put on/take off). Now it's perfect (5x for general off-hand ranging, and 15x for accurate distance ranging, usually leaning against something or using a support). I just wish it had the ability to range in between two objects out in the field as it's more expensive siblings do, but that just goes to prove that not only women are the ones never fully satisfied...
Gun_Slinger
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You cant range between two object???, Maybe thats why it has the retical in it, and then you have to do the math. I still think its the best thing since sliced Bread and I love the distance's it achieves.
John
John
I just bought a Leica 1600B today. It is my very first range finder but I love it so far. Have had no problem rangeing the edge of corn fields out to 1722 yards. That's the furthest so far.
I have a Leica 1600 not sure if it's the B or not???
Just range a house across the lake at 1,991 yards.
Hit a tree stump multiple times at 1,397-1,400.
Conditions has to be perfect to get the 1,900 yard readings.
I was leaning against my porch post to get as still as possible.
It's a good rangefinder.
PSE EVO 60 Lbs.
Blacked out
Just range a house across the lake at 1,991 yards.
Hit a tree stump multiple times at 1,397-1,400.
Conditions has to be perfect to get the 1,900 yard readings.
I was leaning against my porch post to get as still as possible.
It's a good rangefinder.
PSE EVO 60 Lbs.
Blacked out
John, I would compare ballistic computer output with your real dope (i.e., you how close the predicted adjustment came to the final adjustment you had to take to hit the target). I certainly would not compare it with what your LRF thinks the adjustment should be. In fact, to me that would be a bad sign if my ballistic computer that I rely on, would give me the same trajectory data as my Bushnell LRF.
Hmm... And where would I get those figures to begin with? And if I have those figures for my specific round at the given distance - wouldn't it be likely that I have the rest of the corrections as well? Which in turn would obviate the need for these Apps?
G'Day Mouse, Somewhere I wrote down the SD/CE adjustments on a data sheet relating to to the 4 points of the compass out to about 1200yds so all I had to do was add or subtract a few clicks which worked til I sorted out my range bag but one thing I did notice was when I Added them to the wind constants they come very close to what the Apps dictated.
The charts I made up went from 100yds to 1200yds in 100yd step and the other chart was in 50yd steps, and the only one that was a bit off was @1000yds???
John
Tagged for ref
I will say that for the price I think the Bushnell 1 MILE fusion Binos are pretty awesome. they range super far and have the clarify of a bino which is nice for extended viewing sessions.
Well I can tell you not to buy the bushnell scout 1000 arc it would not range a 16 in plate at 300 yards I took it back the same day
With the G-Force I have ranged smallish clumps of grass out beyoned 4-500yds so they really have done their homework on this one,
John
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