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Rifle Scopes Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

Bowhntr6pt

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 30, 2006
68
14
Central Florida
A while back, I bought a Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50 with illuminated mil-dot reticle. In my haste to buy, I failed to realize it is <span style="font-weight: bold">.5cm </span>adjustments.

Any advantage or disadvantage with this type?

Thanks
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

Here is a good article for you to read:

http://www.cstactical.com/Magazine/Blog-Articles/Articles-Tutorials/MIL-vs-MOA.html

Friday, 01 October 2010 09:52
MIL vs. MOA
Written by Mike Cecil

One of the questions I consistently receive from customers is, “What configuration should I go with for my scope? Should I get an MOA reticle with MOA adjustments? Should I get a MIL reticle with MOA adjustments? Or should I get a MIL reticle with MIL adjustments?"

Based on my experience and personal preference, I always recommend selecting a MIL reticle with MIL adjustments. My recommendation is based on 7 reasons outlined below. I feel the need to emphasize that the following is based on my experience and personal preferences. Customers ask me what I think and I tell them. Anyone is free to disagree or completely disregard it.

1. 1/10 MIL ADJUSTMENTS vs. 1/4 MOA ADJUSTMENTS

MOA adjustments are commonly broken down into 1/4 MOA. MIL adjustments are broken down into tenths: 1/10, 2/10, 3/10, etc. Adjusting 1 MOA would be 4 clicks, 2 MOA would be 8 clicks with 1/4 MOA adjustments. Adjusting 1 MIL is going to be 10 clicks, adjusting 2 MILS will be 20 clicks with 1/10 MIL adjustments. For me personally, the math is simpler in the MIL system (10 clicks = 1 MIL) compared to the MOA system (4 clicks = 1 MOA) giving you benefits in mulitple areas.

The MIL reticles and adjustments sync up nicer as well. You can break the MIL reticle up into tens and match the 1/10 adjustments so your fractions are the same. There is no MOA reticle that gives you an equal subtension with the 0.25 MOA adjustments. Trying to locate the extra 0.05 of an MOA on your reticle is going to be very challenging. Your eye will have a harder time breaking the reticle down into 0.25 of an MOA compared to breaking 1 MIL into tenths. Not saying it can’t be done, it’s just more difficult.

2. RANGING WITH THE MIL DOT RETICLE

Some people do feel the MOA system is an easier ranging system, but I have not found that to be the case. In the MOA formula for ranging you have to use numbers such as 1.047. For myself, and I believe most other people, I tend not to be able to use 1.047 when doing the math in my head. At distances of 500 yards or more, this will result in a very inaccurate estimate.

In the MIL formula for ranging you simply use 0.1 of a MIL as unit of measurement. With a MIL reticle, the shooter simply measures his target using the dots or lines, then works a range estimation formula to obtain the target’s distance or the distance to an item near the target. Below is the ranging formula using MILS along with a sample for a target that is 30cm in size:

Ranging Forumula-MILS

3. HOLDOVER SHOTS WITH THE MIL DOT RETICLE

When executing holdover shots, many times the shooter has to visualize his aiming point on the reticle. For example, there is not a clear reticle marking for 1.75 MOA or 1.2 MILS. MOA markings are also spaced closer together compared to MIL DOTS or MIL LINES making it harder to decipher 14.25 MOA or 14.75 MOA. In the MIL system, it’s easier to visualize 4.1 MILS or 4.3 MILS in my opinion.

You will also deal with larger numbers in the MOA system vs. the MIL system. For example, holding 4.1 MILS on the reticle is faster to locate compared to locating 14.25 MOA using a .308 for a 500 yard shot.

NPR1 MIL DOT MIL LINE GEN2XR

4. CORRECTIONS

Between your MIL turret and MIL reticle you can decipher how much adjustment you need to make fairly quick and accurately based upon tenths. A spotter calling out corrections to a shooter can have smoother communication using MILS. Calling out 1.1 MILS (vs. 1.75 MOA) is quicker for the shooter to process and execute an accurate shot.

5. MIL/MIL vs. MOA/MIL

For many years the military and civilians used MILDOT Reticles with MOA turrets. This is more difficult (vs. MIL/MIL) because you have to do an MOA to MIL conversion. You can use a rough estimate of a 1/2 MIL being 2 moa, but with the MIL/MIL system you know that of every 1/2 MIL is 5 clicks on a 1/10 MRAD turret. For the most part, it seems standard for most military applications to use MOA/MIL systems, but that is slowly starting to change to MIL/MIL in some areas of the military in recent years.

6. LESS LEARNING CURVE FOR NEW SHOOTERS

For those new to long range, the MIL system has a faster learning curve compared to learning the MOA system. Again, everything is based upon tenth’s and your fractions on your reticle will match your fractions on your adjustments.

7. MOA SHOOTERS TRANSITIONING TO MIL SYSTEM

I have talked many of my customers, that have learned only the MOA system, into trying a MIL/MIL setup. They do experience a learning curve, but it is a very fast learning curve. Once they get used to it, I have many of them tell me they wished they had started out learning MIL/MIL before investing so heavily in MOA scopes. Even shooters whose vocations require using units of measurements in inches (i.e. contruction workers, engineers, school teachers, etc) have preffered the MIL/MIL setup once they learn it. I’ve also known many guys that have sold all of their MOA scopes after learning the MIL system in order to convert all of their setups accordingly.

In conclusion, for those looking to get into target/tactical/long range shooting, I would recommend getting a scope with a MIL/MIL setup for the reasons mentioned above. At CS Tactical we do stock many MOA scopes and service many customers that shoot with MOA scopes, so please feel free to adopt the setup you feel most comfortable with. Please note as well, we have merely scratched the surface in regards to this topic and each of these main points could have entire articles dedicated to them alone. Again, this is just my personal opinion based on my experience.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

I think they are .05 MRAD which actually makes this a bit of a disadvantage unless you are shooting F Class with it. It's 1/2 a CM at 100m. Almost all mil scopes are 1CM at 100m

This was Leupold's idea of not listening to anyone while pretending to listen to everyone.

It defeats the purpose of a Mil Reticle with Mil Adjustments, but you can run with it... it's sort of like having a scope with 1/8 minute adjustments.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

Good news - It's mil/mil

Bad news - It's going to take some extra clicks to make adjustments.

IMHO the good news is far better then the bad news.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good news - It's mil/mil

Bad news - It's going to take some extra clicks to make adjustments.

IMHO the good news is far better then the bad news. </div></div>

Agreed, at least the scope is has mil knobs with a mil-based reticle. For the record, you have what Leupold calls M4 knobs.

If you want 1/10 mil clicks (like the vast majority of mil/mil scopes), you can have Leupold upgrade your scope to M5 knobs. They claim to be offering this service something this quarter. I'm sure it will be several hundred dollars, but they didn't have pricing information the last time I called.

 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think they are .05 MRAD which actually makes this a bit of a disadvantage unless you are shooting F Class with it. <span style="color: #FF0000"> It's 1/2 a CM at 100m. Almost all mil scopes are 1CM at 100m </span>This was Leupold's idea of not listening to anyone while pretending to listen to everyone.

It defeats the purpose of a Mil Reticle with Mil Adjustments, but you can run with it... it's sort of like having a scope with 1/8 minute adjustments. </div></div>

Lets say I fired a shot, missed and needed a <span style="font-weight: bold">1 MOA </span>adjustment (as identified by a spotter)... I have to go 20 clicks?

I'm still learning this stuff.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

One mil = 3.438 MOA

So, 0.1 mil = .3438 MOA, and

0.05 mil = 0.172 MOA

So, a one MOA adjustment is going to take about 6 clicks.

But it's a lot simpler to have a spotter using a mil reticle, who can then just tell you the correction in mils. That's the point of having scopes which adjust in the same system as the reticles are graduated in.

 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

As LIndy said, you're spotter should be talking in Mils, you need to get MOA out of your head with that scope.

You're spotter will more than likely have an Mil Based reticle, either in another rifle or Spotting scope.

So if he calls it in mils as he should you can simply correct off that, basically reading the correcting and dialing what you see is what you get... although with that scope it's takes an extra click here and there.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One mil = 3.438 MOA

So, 0.1 mil = .3438 MOA, and

0.05 mil = 0.172 MOA

So, a one MOA adjustment is going to take about 6 clicks.

But it's a lot simpler to have a spotter using a mil reticle, who can then just tell you the correction in mils. That's the point of having scopes which adjust in the same system as the reticles are graduated in.

</div></div>

Got it... I think. Thanks.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As LIndy said, you're spotter should be talking in Mils, you need to get MOA out of your head with that scope.

You're spotter will more than likely have an Mil Based reticle, either in another rifle or Spotting scope.

So if he calls it in mils as he should you can simply correct off that, basically reading the correcting and dialing what you see is what you get... <span style="color: #FF0000">although with that scope it's takes an extra click here and there. </span> </div></div>

That's what I feared... thanks. It's just going to be used for informal long range steel shooting anyway.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good news - It's mil/mil

Bad news - It's going to take some extra clicks to make adjustments.

IMHO the good news is far better then the bad news. </div></div>

Agreed, at least the scope is has mil knobs with a mil-based reticle. For the record, you have what Leupold calls M4 knobs.

If you want 1/10 mil clicks (like the vast majority of mil/mil scopes), you can have Leupold upgrade your scope to M5 knobs. They claim to be offering this service something this quarter. I'm sure it will be several hundred dollars, but they didn't have pricing information the last time I called.

</div></div>

I just went and looked at the box again. Its says 1/4 MOA Adjustments M1, Metric.

On top of the knobs it says 1 Click = 0.5cm
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

I have a Mark 4 6.5 to 20x50 LR/T with the TRM Reticle. I spoke with Luepold today and it will be at least a year until the M5 turrets are available for conversion. I was also told that you had to have a scope with a serial number that ended in T, U or V to be eligible for conversion.
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6pt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good news - It's mil/mil

Bad news - It's going to take some extra clicks to make adjustments.

IMHO the good news is far better then the bad news. </div></div>

Agreed, at least the scope is has mil knobs with a mil-based reticle. For the record, you have what Leupold calls M4 knobs.

If you want 1/10 mil clicks (like the vast majority of mil/mil scopes), you can have Leupold upgrade your scope to M5 knobs. They claim to be offering this service something this quarter. I'm sure it will be several hundred dollars, but they didn't have pricing information the last time I called.

</div></div>

I just went and looked at the box again. Its says 1/4 MOA Adjustments M1, Metric.

On top of the knobs it says 1 Click = 0.5cm

</div></div>

Who ever wrote on the box was wrong...
 
Re: Leupold MK4 with metric turrets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6pt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good news - It's mil/mil

Bad news - It's going to take some extra clicks to make adjustments.

IMHO the good news is far better then the bad news. </div></div>

Agreed, at least the scope is has mil knobs with a mil-based reticle. For the record, you have what Leupold calls M4 knobs.

If you want 1/10 mil clicks (like the vast majority of mil/mil scopes), you can have Leupold upgrade your scope to M5 knobs. They claim to be offering this service something this quarter. I'm sure it will be several hundred dollars, but they didn't have pricing information the last time I called.

</div></div>

I just went and looked at the box again. Its says 1/4 MOA Adjustments M1, Metric.

On top of the knobs it says 1 Click = 0.5cm

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">Who ever wrote on the box was wrong... </span></div></div>

I see now why it's wrong... to be clear though, it's the factory writing. Guess Leupold screwed up the factory label.

Thanks to all... things are more clear now.