Gunsmithing Level action to stock in glass bedding?

[goodgorilla]

In case anyone was wondering what my replies were from McMillan and Nathan Foster, this is what they said. Nathan Foster said that he has a book that is coming out in about 8 weeks on the subject of bedding rifles, so he told me that he can't really tell me more than what was in the video and that he is confident that his techniques are proven after more than 20 years of ballistic research. A few gunsmiths at McMillan talked to me about what they would suggest for bedding the action, one smith named Justin told me that all is needed is a skim bed. Some of Justin's experience was doing a great number of bedding jobs on the McMillan stocks back when they were doing it, and he told me that the thickness of the skim bed is sufficient to wear and tear. Only reason why I was skeptical of McMillan is Nathan Foster said that 2mm is needed to be removed from the stock to give the bedding sufficient thickness so that it doesn't flake off or crack. Justin told me that when using Marine Tex as epoxy, the thickness is sufficient and that I will be fine with the Devcon Titanium. That is not a direct quote because he said that Marine Tex is sufficient, but Devcon Titanium is like 20 percent stronger. All I got to do now is research how to do a good skim bed job, I hear it's nearly identical to a regular job.

Hey Jstn, what was the test you did after bedding to check if the bedding was done right? I can't find that post anymore. At the moment, I wasn't planning on using any bungies or anything after reading your tutorial. Link to tutorial: http://www.msgunowners.com/t47586-how-to-bedding-pictorial

 

[Deadshot2]

Someone bed this guys rifle and lock this thread.

I would, and do it for free, if he wasn't over 3,000 miles away. You're closer

 

[goodgorilla]

I would, and do it for free, if he wasn't over 3,000 miles away. You're closer

Would you secure the action to the stock using elastic or something? Jstn suggests not to because he got better results not doing that. This not a question about you actually doing my bedding job, but if you were within 300 miles I would have probably paid you a visit.

 

[Edds]

Why don't you get the stock with no inletting and then send it along with your barreled action, bottom metal, and 750 Washingtons to LRI for bedding?

 

[Deadshot2]

Would you secure the action to the stock using elastic or something? Jstn suggests not to because he got better results not doing that. This not a question about you actually doing my bedding job, but if you were within 300 miles I would have probably paid you a visit.

I would do like 90+ percent of those who bed rifle actions do. If the pillars are already isntalled, then do a "dry fit" to make sure the ONLY contact points are the tops of the pillars. Then after you add your bedding material, using the headless bolts, or the regular action screws that have been taped and the threads waxed, install the action in the "mud", If you're using headless bolts then secure the action with surgical tubing or other elastic. Use just enough pressure to hold the action against the pillars, no more. If you use the regular action screws they should be no more than finger tight. Use a real light finger because all you want them to do is center the head in the bottom metal, not put pressure on the action.

To make sure that a heavy barrel doesn't load the action in the bedding, I'll stand the rifle in end with the muzzle down. This way the only forces on the action, if any, are the weight of the stock, not a heavy barrel acting as a lever against the front of the action, creating a down force on the front pillar and an up force on the rear.

Any 'stress" imparted by some surgical tubing used to hold the action in place is about as much as putting a paper clip on a sheet of 1/4" steel.

Just don't tighten the action screws. THEY can induce as much as 1200# of stress each.


Just for grins, here's what Gale McMillan himself wrote a while back when telling people how they bed stocks

Now place the guard screws into the stock
and hold the stock up to the barreled action and start the guard screws.
Tighten one then the other till the action is nearly in place. Let it
set for 5 minutes to let the excess epoxy to ozz out .then tighten the
screws just snug with the stock hanging free with no binding.

But then what did Gale McMillan know about bedding stocks for accuracy. I believe the record for the smallest Benchrest 100 yard group still stands at .009" and was shot by one of the McMillan family with a McMillan stocked rifle.

Everyone out there has their own "style", and in reality they all work. In the end the real proof is in the shooter.

 

[goodgorilla]

Use just enough pressure to hold the action against the pillars, no more. If you use the regular action screws they should be no more than finger tight. Use a real light finger because all you want them to do is center the head in the bottom metal, not put pressure on the action.

To make sure that a heavy barrel doesn't load the action in the bedding, I'll stand the rifle in end with the muzzle down. This way the only forces on the action, if any, are the weight of the stock, not a heavy barrel acting as a lever against the front of the action, creating a down force on the front pillar and an up force on the rear.

I could use either the tubing or the screws but as for questions towards them. Which ones should I use, and if I use tubing, where on the action do I tie it down?

I don't really understand the second part, but how do you keep the epoxy from oozing down the action. I think I might have the orientation of the action wrong in my mind. I think you just have the gun rotated 180 degrees so the action is upside down instead of right size up.

 

[Deadshot2]

I could use either the tubing or the screws but as for questions towards them. Which ones should I use, and if I use tubing, where on the action do I tie it down?

I don't really understand the second part, but how do you keep the epoxy from oozing down the action. I think I might have the orientation of the action wrong in my mind. I think you just have the gun rotated 180 degrees so the action is upside down instead of right size up.

I use the screws to properly locate the action over the pillars and not rotated in the stock. I don't use them to HOLD the action in the stock. On the second part, I don't use the "runny crap" that passes for bedding agents. I use Devcon Plastic Steel or Titanium and it's not as runny as the "Glass Bedding" stuff.

If you're worried about any bedding running anywhere just wait until it's reached the "semi-plastic" state, and then stand it on end ----- or not.

The whole idea of standing the rifle on it's nose is to relieve any force caused by the barrel hanging off the end of the stock. I saw one gunsmith that had a hole bored in a 4x4 attached to the end of his bench. When he had the rifle bedded, he stuck the end of the barrel in the hole and let the whole rifle hang there until the bedding was cured.

 

[goodgorilla]

I am planning to use the devcon, but I still don't have the orientation of the rifled action to stock clear in my head. Say the action has been dropped into the epoxy, you then tie it down then invert it so the stock is resting on top of the barrel action? Or is the rifle bore pointed at the floor?

 

[Deadshot2]

I am planning to use the devcon, but I still don't have the orientation of the rifled action to stock clear in my head. Say the action has been dropped into the epoxy, you then tie it down then invert it so the stock is resting on top of the barrel action? Or is the rifle bore pointed at the floor?

Either one will work. The idea is to take the weight of the long barrel out of the equation by supporting the assembly with either the barrel down or the whole assembly upside down. If you put it upside down, and have a heavy butt on the stock then it just replaces the barrel as a stress causing weight. If you stand the assembly on end then there are no vertical stresses created at the junction of pillar, bedding, and action.

 

[goodgorilla]

Either one will work. The idea is to take the weight of the long barrel out of the equation by supporting the assembly with either the barrel down or the whole assembly upside down. If you put it upside down, and have a heavy butt on the stock then it just replaces the barrel as a stress causing weight. If you stand the assembly on end then there are no vertical stresses created at the junction of pillar, bedding, and action.

How effective is using alternate orientations for epoxy curing? For some reason I think letting the epoxy cure in a natural firing position would make the best shape for the epoxy. If we are worried about the heavy barrel, can't we just make a couple of clay damns for support? But nobody can argue if there are results that would favor a specific curing angle.

Alright for some personal notes on skim bedding.
1.I'm going to use the actual action screws when I bed the thing. Before bedding I need to observe the way the action sinks into the stock when I am tightening the action screws to make sure everything is aligned well. Also when I bed the action, the action screws need to be tightened until epoxy stops oozing out the sides (now I wonder if it matters both screws have the same torc or not).

2. I will rough up the surface a little bit, but no drilling. On my stock there will be no paint on it, so I can just rough up the surface with some sand paper then degrease. But I am not going to dremmel anything. After bedding there maybe a few spots where the epoxy is to shallow enough you can see the stock, but that is nothing to worry about.

3. The tang area will take up some epoxy just like when normal bedding, but I need to clean it up the same as if doing a regular bedding job.

4. After cleaning up the epoxy from oozing out of the stock and action area, I will hang the rifle by the muzzle break (I'm hoping it will hold out, unless someone has a better idea).

5. I am undecided about using a clay damn or tape around the barrel at the forearm of the stock. Justin at McMillan told me that if you have tightened the screws correctly, you don't need to worry about that section of the stock. Or perhaps in my mind it is because I will be hanging the rifle, so the weight of the barrel will not be pressing down.

6. I need some kind of flat surface to have the rifle sitting on when I am working on the rifle before hanging it in the end. I have a tipman best gun vise, I think I will experiment to see if it will be sufficient.

7. Stuff like release agent, tape, and modeling clay will be used like the traditional bedding job. Some things to note is the back of the recoil lug does not have tape on it. The clay damn in front of the recoil lug should be positioned so that it contacts with the flat portion of the barrel coming out of the action, I will have to look up how far in front of the recoil lug do I fill with epoxy. I need to use pipe tape or bedding tape on the recoil lug.

How does this stuff sound? The action screws bug me a little, but that's the round I'm going to do.

 

[Deadshot2]

Sorry, my fingers are tired from this thread. I'm off to work on one of my own bedding projects.

With all due respects you are over thinking the process. I'd recommend that you just look up one of Larry Potterfield's video's (He's the owner of Midway USA) and follow his instructions on how to bed the rifle. If you don't like Midway's videos, Brownell's has one or two available on their site too.

Over and Out.

 

[BenY 2013]

So it may have been answered in this thread, but I haven't had a chance to read it all yet. If an action is not level in the stock and offset some, will it affect anything but my OCD?

If it won't affect any of the actual accuracy I think for now it'll be ok, but eventually it's got to be fixed!

Ben

 

[goodgorilla]

So it may have been answered in this thread, but I haven't had a chance to read it all yet. If an action is not level in the stock and offset some, will it affect anything but my OCD?

If it won't affect any of the actual accuracy I think for now it'll be ok, but eventually it's got to be fixed!

Ben

That's a good question, I don't know. I guess that was my fear that made me wonder about this topic.

 

[Deadshot2]

So it may have been answered in this thread, but I haven't had a chance to read it all yet. If an action is not level in the stock and offset some, will it affect anything but my OCD?

If it won't affect any of the actual accuracy I think for now it'll be ok, but eventually it's got to be fixed!

Ben

The basic accuracy of a rifle is controlled by three basic items. The action, the barrel, and the trigger. When these three items are properly assembled then most of the accuracy any weapon will have has been dealt with.

Bedding a barreled action in the stock will enhance the basic accuracy by holding it firm for repeatable shots.

The alignment of the action in the stock is more to provide for a good shooter/rifle alignment. Very slight angle differences are not usually the cause of inaccuracy as they can be compensated for by changes in the shooter's position.

Just remember, the scope (aiming device) mounts on the action, he barrel mounts on the action, and the trigger sends the shot. The rest is just a means of holding these items up and controlling the recoil.

That's a good question, I don't know. I guess that was my fear that made me wonder about this topic.

 

[BenY 2013]

The basic accuracy of a rifle is controlled by three basic items. The action, the barrel, and the trigger. When these three items are properly assembled then most of the accuracy any weapon will have has been dealt with.

Bedding a barreled action in the stock will enhance the basic accuracy by holding it firm for repeatable shots.

The alignment of the action in the stock is more to provide for a good shooter/rifle alignment. Very slight angle differences are not usually the cause of inaccuracy as they can be compensated for by changes in the shooter's position.

Just remember, the scope (aiming device) mounts on the action, he barrel mounts on the action, and the trigger sends the shot. The rest is just a means of holding these items up and controlling the recoil.

Gotcha! Thanks, anyhow my OCD got the best of me and now there is no bedding... Looks like I'll get to do that once more, but I need the practice!

Ben