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Long Range Zero?

C

cncwhiz

Private
Minuteman
Nov 6, 2013
13
0
Central AL
Provided I can actually find a range with a distance past 100 yards, I would like to start doing some serious long range stuff. I will eventually have to build up a bigger caliber rifle for the purpose.

The question is, basically, where do you guys that shoot the serious distance zero your guns at? I'm talking about like ranges of 500, 750, 1000 yards +? Are most of these guns zeroed at 100, and then the scope just dialed for elevation depending on the distance? Is that like a commonly accepted standard? -or do you run somethin other zero like 250 or 500 yards?
 
i zero at 100 makes the mil math easy then just dial in for longer ranges and verify my dope
 
Coriolis effect starts to screw with you at long range so you will never have a consistent zero at long yardages.
 
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RHunter said:
Coralis effect starts to screw with you at long range so you will never have a consistent zero at long yardages.
Click to expand...

You will also want to make sure you factor in the Aurora Borealis effect if you are in the northern hemisphere.
 
RHunter said:
That is the colinalis effect.
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No, that's the way that the toilet bowl is formed (Coriolis effect is much too minor to cause an observable effect on drains at typical flow rates).
 
100m, The settings affect only very few at that distance. We can say: "Zero will always be true @ 100m
Although it is advisable to do each time: if you take notes based on parameters exterior, you will how it evolves, a couple of clic sometimes (light, big gap between temperature, etc...)

A zero at 400m for example, will be never right. Temperature, altitude, etc.... Added, each settings will change the zero each time, and naturally, your ballistic table will be wrong.
 
Hmmm, not sure I buy that info on the coriolis effect in the above video.
Three shots fired in each direction at 1000 yards, and he's using that to prove his theory?
Sorry to get off topic - agree with everyone about 100 yd zero.
 
Hmmm, not sure I buy that info on the coriolis effect in the above video.
Three shots fired in each direction at 1000 yards, and he's using that to prove his theory?
Click to expand...

Do a bit of research and you will find it is very real. Your better ballistic calculators calculate for this. Shooter for the iphone is one that considers this in its calculations.
 
Long Range Zero?

RHunter said:
Your better ballistic calculators calculate for this. Shooter for the iphone is one that considers this in its calculations.
Click to expand...
Do you input your location and the direction of each shot?
 
1.3 seconds in the air with a 7WSM at 1000 yards, if you are seeing 12" or whatever it was, I have a trip to the Pacific Ocean to sell you?

How do hot air balloons no wind up in China is my question.

Someone need to explain to these guys the Earth drags it atmosphere with it. It's a boundary layer that extends for 2000ft up. What's max ord for the 7, oh about 10ft above the line of sight. So what you're saying is, every chimney in the world has a line of smoke streaking across the sky away from the house which moving away under it.
 
Accelerations due to the Coriolis Effect are caused by the fact that the earth is spinning, and are dependent on where you are on the planet, and which direction you're firing. It breaks down like this:

There are horizontal and vertical components to Coriolis acceleration.

The Horizontal component depends on your latitude, which is how far you are above or below the equator. Maximum horizontal effect is at the poles, zero at the equator. The horizontal component doesn't depend on which direction you shoot. Typical horizontal Coriolis drift for a small arms trajectory fired near 45 degrees North Latitude is about 2.5-3.0 inches to the right at 1000 yards.

The Vertical component of the Coriolis effect depends on what direction you shoot, as well as where you are on the planet. Firing due North or South results in zero vertical deflection, firing East causes you to hit high, West causes you to hit low. The vertical component is at a maximum at the equator, and goes to zero at the poles. Typical vertical deflection at 45 degrees North (or South) latitude for a 1000 yard trajectory is the same as for the horizontal component: +2.5 to 3.0 inches (shooting east), or -2.5 to 3.0 inches when shooting west.
Click to expand...

Gyroscopic (spin) Drift (also discusses Coriolis and contains the text quoted above)

6 inch difference east to west at 1000 yards is pretty substantial in my opinion. If your vertical dope is calculated shooting east and you use that same dope to shoot west, it is the difference between a hit and a miss on a 10" target. Same shooting north to south only the effects are horizontal. 1000 yard zero shooting north will be 6 inches off shooting south.

If you are in southern Texas or southern Florida the difference is more like 10 inches.
 
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As noted if you are not using a compass on every shot you are not figuring out anything.

You absolutely need you location and azimuth to target. I have yet to see someone with Coriolis turn on in their app do this... Stupid.

Don't believe the hype, several ballisticans around the world believe the Coriolis formula is wrong from the start.

Pesja Modern ballistics states it's 1/2 of SD... So that is less than 5" and even less than that with a fast bullet. (338 is like 3" at the worst). It also states if you use a left hand twist barrel you cancel both out. So if it was this produced do you think we'd still be twisting bullets to the right?

If the model is using the spin of the earth from space they fail to retard the effect from our boundary layer as it is not moving as fast this close to the ground.
 
Long Range Zero?

RHunter,

Nothing says that one hasn't got a clue like cutting and pasting tangential information from the Internet.

If you keep posting detritus you will eventually get a ticket for littering. Meanwhile, your free can of 'Spin D' is in the mail.
 
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Nothing says that one hasn't got a clue like cutting and pasting tangential information from the Internet.

If you keep posting detritus you will eventually get a ticket for littering. Meanwhile, your free can of 'Spin D' is in the mail.
Click to expand...

Nothing says that one has not got a clue when one never posts anything that contributes to any discussion.
 
Every rifle or carbine is a long range system.

Zero @ 100 meters.
In some cases 200 meters depending on the system like barrel, optics, round and designated role.
The how to method is not that important if it works. The important thing is that you have confirmation from your math & estimated values to mean/actual values on the field and in all sort of conditions.
 
How would you explain how nobody ever takes an azimuth to a target, can zero their dope and then travel all over the country and hit stuff without any issues at all ?

My house has nothing to do with it, facts of the matter do. You can be educated or you can parrot mythology.

Do you know what your direction of fire is ? Cause I never met anyone who did. It's noise nothing more, we seen clues to this everyday.

its the case of the gullible woodpecker.
 
RHunter said:
This is worth a watch...

Click to expand...


It is nice they explain this simple concept to enthusasts but it might confuse some people because it has little meaning w/o adding very specific details to the equation
like altitude and geolocation.
I am not sure but I think they get a lot of questions because ballistic turrets do not really work unless you always shoot in the same place in the same conditions
and I don't think by switching conditions what people have in mind is turning their rifles 180 and shooting in the opposite direction. LOL
Same thing as comp reticles or ballistic comp reticles. I guess one "could make them work" but there is so much calculation that by the time you
are done with converting back and forth you will know that the only way to make something work would be with standard units of measure and
if possible consistent units of measure in the same scale so the adjustments can be done faster and less prone to error.
So whatever the variable there is an impact the question is, does one needs to worry about that vs. other factors when ballistics
turrets also might be at play. Then geodesic factors might be the least of your worries.
 
Gunsite as an excellent presentation on some variations and how they can move the poi high, low, etc.
 

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If the video is true, then I can forget about ever being a longrange marksman. Ill simply never figure all of that out!
 
Long Range Zero?

RHunter,

Just because you can't understand my contributions to this site doesn't mean that I am not making them. This is the third or fourth time in the recent past that I have isolated a fallacy or a fatal flaw in one of your posts. I'm not nitpicking. You are making serious mistakes. And believe me: It's not personal; I have no idea who you are. But you make things up, and perpetuate myths when you criticize others, and it's all being done in the name of your so-called expertise when it's clear to me that you have no credible source for your information. Other members need to know this about you lest they take your word that you are an expert. That alone is a contribution of mine to this site.

All,

The presentation that Frank posted a slide from (above), given by Cory as part of the ELR class at Gunsite, is an eye-opener on the issues of hit percentage at ELR and the method/ability to effectively determine and make corrections. Anyone interested in the problems unique to 1000-2000 yards should consider taking that class. It's money well spent.
 
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How would you explain how nobody ever takes an azimuth to a target
Click to expand...

Well I personally do, it is one of the first things I do when I arrive to a new range. There is an amazing compass app for the iphone that works great and before that I had an old lensatic that I used. I use the app with Shooter and have found the results to be pretty decent, not perfect but a lot closer than using calculations where it is not considered in the calculations. I also think a lot of shooters who don't would take a few shots and make any adjustments to correct. I never hit the same zero one range to the next let alone one day to the next. It usually takes a click here and there to get me back to zero.

I am not shooting a .338, my velocities are fast approaching 1000 FPS at 1000 so the flight time is longer than shooting a faster bullet. One and a half seconds = about 750 yards of earths rotation, if you are shooting a target that is rising due to the curve of the earth, you are going to hit low. I believe that 1/2 SD you mention is a 10 inch difference east to west because you need to calculate the difference between 2000 yards, you are stating it is 5" at 1000. If I dope for 1000 shooting east, and do what that fella did in the video and turn 180 degrees and don't change the dope I will have a 5 inch difference in the opposite direction. There is the 10 inches.

What I am having a hard time with is understanding your point about space and the barrier layer and how that is relevant. That barrier layer is not stone and it does not hold the bullet in the same plane relative to the surface minus the effect of gravity when the bullet is in flight. Minus gravity it would travel in a straight line. but the surface of the earth is not flat.

How does left spin drift negate a vertical drop? It would negate a left Coriolis drift but not a right one. Maybe the problem is I ordered the wrong Bartlien barrels, they all have a right twist. My Omen has a right twist, and so do all my other guns. Are you implying you are shooting left twist barrels?

This discussion reminds me of how bombers aimed their drops to hit the targets, from the time the bombs left the plane till they would impact, the rotation of the earth, altitude, and flight heading had to be considered in the solution to hit the target. From what I gather with your point about the barrier layer, if I dropped anything from a plane it should indeed hit the point it was directly over when I released it and that is not the case. Can you explain that a little better to help me understand it?

I find miles and miles of information on Coriolis effect online and in old training manuals, and I know it is a big factor in artillery firing solutions. You really see it when you are lobbing a shell 8 miles.... So how Pesja has a different theory and writes a book on it for shooters and that book suddenly changes an effect that has been observed for a long time is a bit confusing to me. Physics are physics. Have a look at some of the engineer reviews of Pesja's book, they don't bestow a lot of confidence in his calculations.
 
This is the third or fourth time in the recent past that I have isolated a fallacy or a fatal flaw in one of your posts.
Click to expand...

No, this is the third or fourth time my comments don't coincide with your opinions.

You pull this crap with everyone Graham. From self-elected grammar control, to Graham factor checker, you do all you can to belittle anyone you do not agree with. I have seen you give people hell for their misspellings, miss-use of words, make new members look like idiots... It is like you have nothing better to do than troll on this site. I don't have a lot of patience for people who make a sport out of criticizing others.
 
Gunsite as an excellent presentation on some variations and how they can move the poi high, low, etc.
Click to expand...

Be nice if they had one in FL. They should sell some of that content online.
 
Long Range Zero?

RHunter said:
No, this is the third or fourth time my comments don't coincide with your opinions.

You pull this crap with everyone Graham. From self-elected grammar control, to Graham factor checker, you do all you can to belittle anyone you do not agree with. I have seen you give people hell for their misspellings, miss-use of words, make new members look like idiots... It is like you have nothing better to do than troll on this site. I don't have a lot of patience for people who make a sport out of criticizing others.
Click to expand...

RHunter,

First of all, relax, it's the Internet. Ribbing people about spelling and grammar is par for the course.

Secondly, when you err on the facts you can't dodge your mistake by claiming a simple disagreement of opinion. Dismissing what others post about your mistakes as simply being their 'opinion' is an unsophisticated method of ignoring the truth in what they say while avoiding a defense of your position. Nobody is going to buy that from you.

Third, there are indeed people that I disagree with on this site that I do respect. Disagreement happens all the time. Between respected colleagues it is one of the ways we discover the truth.

As to making sport of you, sport involves a challenge and requires technique. In your case I'm not sure we're at that level.
 
As to making sport of you, sport involves a challenge and requires technique. In your case I'm not sure we're at that level.
Click to expand...

It must be hell thinking you know everything.
 
A bullet is not artillery that goes miles away and flies much farther above the earth and has a very long time of flight. You're joking right, you're comparing something that has the range of miles to something flying 1.3 seconds saying that it is moving a noticeable amount.

What at is the farthest you ever shot ? Seriously because you're clueless.

Any day you want to demonstrate your theory with me let me know. I will show up use nothing but a piece of paper with one number for 1000 yards and hit it with the first shot.

Your perpetuating a myth and have no clue what you are saying.

Also how do hot air balloons not end up in china and how do kids launch weather balloons and retrieve the cameras they attach ? Do their parents buy them a plane ticket.

according to what you just said a balloonist can hover 10ft in the air and will be 750 yards away in 1.5 seconds :) the dumbest thing I read in a while.
 
A balloon does indeed end up 750 yards away, but the point on the earth it started from does too ;)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
 
A bullet is not artillery that goes miles away and flies much farther above the earth and has a very long time of flight.
Click to expand...

No Frank it was an extreme example. What can be hundreds of yards at miles and can be a few inches at 1000+ yards.

So just so I understand, you feel the information discussed in this video is a complete myth?

 
You're so ignorant you don't even know what you are looking at. This why people say the internet is dangerous. Just enough information to be completely wrong.

Based on the video, you do realize you can't dial .08 mils at 1000 yards it's less than 1 click vert. So how are you adjusting if you can't dial your scope that small ? His examples are mils and meters, so at 1100 yards it's .08 mils.

The Earth drags it's atmosphere with it, as you get higher like with artillery the effect is less. But close to the ground the effect is strong because it all moves together. Most use a pure number without retarding the speed because of the boundary layer.

And fyi bombs from an airplane carry momentum.

I have been doing this a long time, shot on numerous occasions to 2000m so please spare us your ridiculous exaggerations.

Youre the the prime example of a game of telephone, you need reboot Wonderama or watch videos on how they used to prove the Telephone effect you're displaying.

the myth is you can or have too adjust for CE inside 1000m, I never bother with it, but you can after 1500m if you feel the need.
 
If we're measureing dicks....I'm about a solid 7 +/- depending how cold it is. :)

boy did this thread just get interesting!
 
Graham said:
Only a Marine would know that measurement when in the company of other men.
Click to expand...

Graham, so if I shot one second sooner the moving target would intercept my bullet? Or if I shot up in the air and my bullet would come down an exact 24 hours later at same point, it would be on target since the earth rotated one revolution? Is that the theory were talking about? If I turn my gun upside down and shoot will that make my right twist barrell a left twist?
 
Long Range Zero?

Mark,

All good questions, and, despite the very severe risk of being accused of thinking I know everything, I will opine that what goes up must come down.?
 
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Wind and spin drift will probably influence a bullets path more than coriolis ever will. Not saying coriolis is just a theory, because it isn't... But other factors are likely more important.
 
If you consider at 1100 yards, .08 Mils is about 3 inches... and at 1000 yards a 1 MPH wind with a 175gr SMK is 10"... I think you can forget it. SD inside 1000m is nominal as well. When I shoot beyond 1500m, the wind has to be below 5MPH in order for me notice anything and even then I use 1/2 of what any computer says. It's exaggerated when the bullet reaches transonic. Stay supersonic and its much smaller.

As Pesja noted, if this was such a problem, both SD and CE we'd be using Left Hand Twist barrels to counter each other as a standard practice. If it's not worth changing the barrel to do this, it certainly can't be worried about if you are not a 1/4 MOA shooter.

Nobody said it was a theory, but the value people put on it is certainly debatable even among ballisticans. It's Noise... pure and simple.

I can throw a baseball straight up in the air and have it stay up there longer than 1.3 seconds and it is not moving inches away from me. It will fall right back into my hand.
 
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