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Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powders

O

Onemoretime

Gunny Sergeant
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 1, 2007
1,327
10
San Diego, CA
Too specific?

I'm looking for something slow like RL25 and RL22 but not so temp sensitive. I've heard the Hodgdon powders tolerate temp diff's well.

Anyone used Retumbo in a 30-06?

I'm also looking at Ramshot Magnum and IMR 7828SSC and Accurate Magpro, anyone know about these?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powders

Rl-22 and H4831 (and H-4831SC, the two Hodgdon powders burn identical, and are slightly faster than RL-22), RL-25 and H-1000 are adjacent on the burn rate chart.

The Hodgdon powders are (or should be) Hodgdon 'Extreme' powders, and reputedly have improved thermal stability.

I would consider the RL-25 and H-1000 to be a bit more on the slow side than I would consider for the .30-'06 except for some ambitiously heavy/long projectiles, and unusually longer barrels.

There are very few powders that are genuinely interchangeable (notably H-414/WW-760 are the same propellent under two different labels), so load development with the usual precautions would be in order.

Greg
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Greg,
I was thinking from my 7wsm loadings that RL22 and 4831SC were close in burn rate and performance but look at these Quickload charts. Specifically look at the pressure for a given load (59.5 grains for instance).

208 Amax over H4831 SC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 58.530 grain H2O = 3.800 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4831 SC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.848% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.5 99 54.00 2449 2769 47173 8476 94.0 1.404
-07.6 100 54.50 2473 2824 48616 8559 94.4 1.385
-06.8 101 55.00 2497 2879 50104 8640 94.8 1.366
-05.9 102 55.50 2521 2934 51622 8718 95.2 1.348 ! Near Maximum !
-05.1 103 56.00 2545 2991 53237 8795 95.6 1.330 ! Near Maximum !
-04.2 104 56.50 2569 3048 54887 8869 95.9 1.312 ! Near Maximum !
-03.4 105 57.00 2593 3105 56594 8940 96.3 1.295 ! Near Maximum !
-02.5 105 57.50 2617 3163 58363 9009 96.6 1.277 ! Near Maximum !
-01.7 106 58.00 2641 3222 60197 9076 97.0 1.260 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.8 107 58.50 2666 3281 62096 9140 97.3 1.243 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 108 59.00 2690 3341 64061 9201 97.6 1.227 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.8 109 59.50 2714 3402 66113 9260 97.8 1.210 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.7 110 60.00 2738 3463 68234 9316 98.1 1.194 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.5 111 60.50 2763 3525 70438 9368 98.3 1.178 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4 112 61.00 2787 3587 72727 9418 98.6 1.162 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.2 113 61.50 2811 3650 75106 9465 98.8 1.147 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 59.00 2817 3664 77167 9053 100.0 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 59.00 2520 2933 52307 8880 91.1 1.339 ! Near Maximum !</pre></div></div>

208 Amax over RL22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 58.530 grain H2O = 3.800 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.848% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.5 99 54.00 2455 2783 43194 8998 95.6 1.456
-07.6 100 54.50 2479 2838 44485 9082 96.0 1.436
-06.8 101 55.00 2503 2893 45820 9164 96.4 1.417
-05.9 102 55.50 2527 2949 47198 9243 96.7 1.398
-05.1 103 56.00 2551 3006 48624 9319 97.1 1.379
-04.2 104 56.50 2575 3063 50098 9392 97.4 1.361
-03.4 105 57.00 2600 3121 51623 9462 97.7 1.342 ! Near Maximum !
-02.5 105 57.50 2624 3179 53200 9530 98.0 1.324 ! Near Maximum !
-01.7 106 58.00 2648 3238 54831 9594 98.2 1.307 ! Near Maximum !
-00.8 107 58.50 2672 3297 56520 9655 98.5 1.289 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 108 59.00 2696 3357 58269 9713 98.7 1.272 ! Near Maximum !
+00.8 109 59.50 2720 3417 60079 9768 98.9 1.255 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.7 110 60.00 2744 3478 61955 9820 99.1 1.239 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.5 111 60.50 2768 3539 63899 9868 99.3 1.222 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4 112 61.00 2792 3601 65915 9912 99.5 1.206 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.2 113 61.50 2816 3663 68005 9953 99.6 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 59.00 2827 3691 71685 9388 100.0 1.174 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 59.00 2513 2918 46639 9465 92.6 1.401</pre></div></div>
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

OTM,

Don't confuse burn rates with compressibility or density. The 4831 has smaller kernels and you can get more powder into the case w/ less compression.

It would be similar to taking two bits of the same substance, one formed into balls and one formed into sticks, the sticks will take up more volume in the case and cause compression symptoms earlier (but in a slower curve) than the balls. Once you start to truly compress the balls the pressure will begin to increase much more rapidly than the sticks.

If you were to plot the pressures for each starting at say 80% case capacity, I would suspect that the 4831 will have a VERY steep pressure curve compared to the RE-22.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Like this?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 60.405 grain H2O = 3.922 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.400 inch = 86.36 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4831 SC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 80 45.00 1998 1843 26481 6728 83.6 1.806
-09.0 81 45.50 2020 1884 27235 6836 84.2 1.785
-08.0 82 46.00 2042 1927 28010 6944 84.9 1.764
-07.0 83 46.50 2065 1969 28806 7050 85.5 1.743
-06.0 83 47.00 2088 2013 29630 7157 86.1 1.723
-05.0 84 47.50 2110 2057 30476 7262 86.7 1.702
-04.0 85 48.00 2133 2101 31348 7366 87.2 1.682
-03.0 86 48.50 2156 2146 32246 7470 87.8 1.662
-02.0 87 49.00 2179 2192 33169 7572 88.4 1.643
-01.0 88 49.50 2202 2238 34123 7674 88.9 1.623
+00.0 89 50.00 2225 2285 35105 7774 89.5 1.604
+01.0 90 50.50 2248 2333 36116 7874 90.0 1.585
+02.0 91 51.00 2271 2381 37159 7971 90.5 1.566
+03.0 91 51.50 2294 2430 38234 8068 91.0 1.544
+04.0 92 52.00 2317 2479 39343 8163 91.5 1.524
+05.0 93 52.50 2340 2529 40486 8257 92.0 1.504

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 89 50.00 2363 2580 41868 8144 96.0 1.486
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 89 50.00 2060 1960 29089 7079 80.0 1.733</pre></div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 60.405 grain H2O = 3.922 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.400 inch = 86.36 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 80 45.00 1998 1844 24540 7151 85.2 1.853
-09.0 81 45.50 2021 1886 25228 7267 85.9 1.832
-08.0 82 46.00 2044 1929 25936 7383 86.5 1.811
-07.0 83 46.50 2067 1973 26665 7498 87.1 1.790
-06.0 83 47.00 2090 2017 27414 7611 87.8 1.770
-05.0 84 47.50 2113 2062 28187 7724 88.4 1.750
-04.0 85 48.00 2136 2107 28982 7836 89.0 1.730
-03.0 86 48.50 2159 2153 29800 7946 89.6 1.710
-02.0 87 49.00 2182 2200 30642 8055 90.1 1.690
-01.0 88 49.50 2206 2247 31511 8162 90.7 1.671
+00.0 89 50.00 2229 2295 32405 8268 91.2 1.652
+01.0 90 50.50 2252 2343 33325 8373 91.7 1.633
+02.0 91 51.00 2276 2392 34274 8476 92.3 1.614
+03.0 91 51.50 2299 2441 35252 8577 92.8 1.595
+04.0 92 52.00 2323 2491 36259 8676 93.2 1.577
+05.0 93 52.50 2346 2542 37297 8773 93.7 1.559

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 89 50.00 2379 2613 39341 8597 97.5 1.529
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 89 50.00 2049 1938 26480 7504 81.1 1.792</pre></div></div>
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Looks like about 2000psi greater across the board. Actually, 3000 greater in the upper end of the ladder.

AND, when I get back to the other ladders I posted it increases to 4k psk, looks like it goes up exponentially.

So what you are saying is, I can fit more 4831 in the case but I will reach max pressure earlier than I would with RL22, correct?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Kind of. You may hit max pressure with RE-22 first but the steps in the pressure curve will be smaller. When you hit max in the 4831 it's going to go vertical with very little change.

Over compressing 4831 at 50* may yield some "interesting" results at 90*.

While I advocate slightly compressing loads to get the minimum ES, one must always remember that compression changes things exponentially at a certian point.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Doc,
Using 60k psi as the limit it looks like 4831 hits it at 58 grains and RL22 hits it at 59.5 grains.

MontanaMarine was saying that psi and velocity are generally considered to be related. So, at 60k psi with the same bullet shouldn't the velocities be closer?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

4350 looks like it would be ideal for compression at least.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 61.347 grain H2O = 3.983 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.877% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.8 92 52.00 2529 2953 48766 8836 99.4 1.378
-07.9 93 52.50 2551 3006 50206 8892 99.6 1.360
-07.0 94 53.00 2574 3059 51689 8946 99.7 1.343 ! Near Maximum !
-06.1 95 53.50 2596 3113 53217 8996 99.8 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
-05.3 96 54.00 2619 3167 54796 9043 99.9 1.308 ! Near Maximum !
-04.4 97 54.50 2641 3221 56423 9086 99.9 1.292 ! Near Maximum !
-03.5 98 55.00 2663 3276 58101 9126 100.0 1.275 ! Near Maximum !
-02.6 99 55.50 2685 3331 59824 9163 100.0 1.259 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.8 100 56.00 2707 3385 61620 9197 100.0 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.9 100 56.50 2729 3441 63468 9230 100.0 1.228 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 101 57.00 2751 3496 65369 9263 100.0 1.213 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.9 102 57.50 2773 3552 67324 9295 100.0 1.198 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.8 103 58.00 2795 3608 69338 9326 100.0 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.6 104 58.50 2817 3664 71415 9357 100.0 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.5 105 59.00 2838 3720 73558 9387 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.4 106 59.50 2860 3777 75771 9417 100.0 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 57.00 2842 3731 78344 8897 100.0 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 57.00 2612 3152 53048 9521 98.1 1.320 ! Near Maximum !</pre></div></div>
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

He is correct. The PSI is directly related to the velocity. The rub comes in on the compression of the load and the density of the powder. As you can see from your data the more case capacity % the more rapidly things change with small adjustments.

At 110% to 111% w/ H-4831 the jump is 2200+ psi.
At 110% to 111% w/ RE-22 the jump is less than 2000 psi

The change is similar at 60K psi

a 1% change in compression may be as little as .05" change in seating depth but the effect between the two is different.

When you get into this compression range small changes have exponentially greater impacts.

I guess the short version is to be cognizant of where things begin to change rapidly and build yourself a cushion to allow for vagaries in bullet length vs ogive, brass volumes and yes even temp changes that may be induced not so much by the atmosphere as the ones induced by leaving a round in a hot gun.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

I think I'm picking up what your puttin' down. What ever powder I choose try to build in a buffer in the load so if the planets are aligned against me I won't blow myself up, right?

My process when shooting is: Set up my position behind the rifle, find my target in the scope, make sure my dope is input and correct, open the action and ready a round to be seated in the chamber, get on target, close the action, fundamentals, fire the round. This, I feel, limits the time the round spends in the bore when the rifle is HOT.
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4350 looks like it would be ideal for compression at least.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 61.347 grain H2O = 3.983 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.877% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.8 92 52.00 2529 2953 48766 8836 99.4 1.378
-07.9 93 52.50 2551 3006 50206 8892 99.6 1.360
-07.0 94 53.00 2574 3059 51689 8946 99.7 1.343 ! Near Maximum !
-06.1 95 53.50 2596 3113 53217 8996 99.8 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
-05.3 96 54.00 2619 3167 54796 9043 99.9 1.308 ! Near Maximum !
-04.4 97 54.50 2641 3221 56423 9086 99.9 1.292 ! Near Maximum !
-03.5 98 55.00 2663 3276 58101 9126 100.0 1.275 ! Near Maximum !
-02.6 99 55.50 2685 3331 59824 9163 100.0 1.259 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.8 100 56.00 2707 3385 61620 9197 100.0 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.9 100 56.50 2729 3441 63468 9230 100.0 1.228 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 101 57.00 2751 3496 65369 9263 100.0 1.213 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.9 102 57.50 2773 3552 67324 9295 100.0 1.198 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.8 103 58.00 2795 3608 69338 9326 100.0 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.6 104 58.50 2817 3664 71415 9357 100.0 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.5 105 59.00 2838 3720 73558 9387 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.4 106 59.50 2860 3777 75771 9417 100.0 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 57.00 2842 3731 78344 8897 100.0 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 57.00 2612 3152 53048 9521 98.1 1.320 ! Near Maximum !</pre></div></div> </div></div>

If 60K Psi is you desired pressure you would conceptually want that pressure to be achieved well into the 100% + case fill and long before the changes get exponential.

4350 hits 61K Psi at 100% fill and is at 75K Psi at 106%. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm picking up what your puttin' down. What ever powder I choose try to build in a buffer in the load so if the planets are aligned against me I won't blow myself up, right? </div></div>

That is always preferred, LOL
laugh.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Does QL allow you to graphically plot the pressure curve? If it does look to see how rapidly your pressure goes up and in what increments. The longer and smoother the curve is in the compressed area the better off you are.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4350 hits 61K Psi at 100% fill and is at 75K Psi at 106%. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

NOT a lot of wiggle? It looks like I would have to make a 3 1/2 grain mistake in powder on that.

Let me check seating depth changes.

It looks like I'd have to make a seating depth mistake of .2 inches (or more) to make the same load a 106% fill.

When I load I take each round independent of the others. I weigh each charge to the 10th of a grain and I measure the OAL on each round to ensure they are all the same.

 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does QL allow you to graphically plot the pressure curve? If it does look to see how rapidly your pressure goes up and in what increments. The longer and smoother the curve is in the compressed area the better off you are.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

It has a pressure vs. time graph.

I understand. No spiking, a hill.
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

No, you would have to make a 3.5% error in FILL.

Not that hard to get a piece of brass that is a bit heavy.
How much load density is a grain or two of brass worth?
A little more neck tension?
Variations in boolet?
The list goes on.

Working on the edge can be rewarding but I like just a bit more buffer for the things I can't control.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, you would have to make a 3.5% error in FILL.

Not that hard to get a piece of brass that is a bit heavy.
How much load density is a grain or two of brass worth?
A little more neck tension?
Variations in boolet?
The list goes on.

Working on the edge can be rewarding but I like just a bit more buffer for the things I can't control.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

So the safe thing is to use the graph to look at the pressure curve and avoid a spike. That will give me a safe buffer zone, right?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It has a pressure vs. time graph.

I understand. No spiking, a hill. </div></div>

Hmmmmmm,

A pressure vs load density would be preferred. Most specifically to see at what point in the fill% the curve goes vertical. It's a balance of fill% and the the pressure curve. How close you get to explosive vs 100% fill is where the question lies.

Of course it's all moot if the round doesn't group
laugh.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So the safe thing is to use the graph to look at the pressure curve and avoid a spike. That will give me a safe buffer zone, right? </div></div>

Yep, pick something that allows for a wide case fill% and keeps the pressure down where you want it.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hmmmmmm,

A pressure vs load density would be preferred. Most specifically to see at what point in the fill% the curve goes vertical. It's a balance of fill% and the the pressure curve. How close you get to explosive vs 100% fill is where the question lies.

Of course it's all moot if the round doesn't group
laugh.gif


Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

No nothing like that.

The graph gives you the pressure curve for the load you input, so you would have to look at the ladder chart and choose the loads individually and then check the pressure curve on them.

 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Look at your first two charts.

Both are at 113%, both are at 61.5gr but the RE is at 68Kpsi and the 4831 is at 75Kpsi for nominally the same speed, 2800 ish.

FWIW I get 2800fps w/ 60.0 of RE-22 under a 208 in Win Military Brass lit with a 210M. Unfortunately I can only guess at the pressure. That being said, my POI remains the same from 59.6 to 61.4 on a 68*F day. I've also shot it at 98*F into the same POI. I'm still within my accuracy band from say 50* to 100*.

That is preferred.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Okay, here is RL22 in my rifle at 3.45 OAL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 61.347 grain H2O = 3.983 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.807% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.1 100 57.00 2538 2975 46715 9587 97.0 1.403
-07.3 101 57.50 2561 3030 48064 9663 97.3 1.385
-06.5 101 58.00 2585 3085 49456 9737 97.6 1.367
-05.6 102 58.50 2608 3141 50895 9808 97.9 1.350
-04.8 103 59.00 2631 3197 52380 9876 98.2 1.332 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 104 59.50 2654 3254 53914 9941 98.4 1.315 ! Near Maximum !
-03.2 105 60.00 2678 3311 55496 10003 98.6 1.299 ! Near Maximum !
-02.4 106 60.50 2701 3369 57132 10062 98.8 1.282 ! Near Maximum !
-01.6 107 61.00 2724 3427 58824 10118 99.0 1.266 ! Near Maximum !
-00.8 108 61.50 2747 3485 60573 10170 99.2 1.249 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 108 62.00 2770 3544 62380 10220 99.4 1.234 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.8 109 62.50 2793 3604 64248 10266 99.5 1.218 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.6 110 63.00 2816 3664 66184 10308 99.6 1.203 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.4 111 63.50 2840 3724 68185 10347 99.7 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2 112 64.00 2863 3784 70257 10383 99.8 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 113 64.50 2885 3845 72394 10415 99.9 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 62.00 2895 3870 76510 9810 100.0 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 62.00 2592 3102 49751 10088 94.2 1.357
</pre></div></div>
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

60 grains looks like 105% and you are 120ish fps faster then what this says.

In a 7% fill jump it looks like it gains 14761 psi. Does that look acceptable?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Yeah, I guess. I'm not up to speed on how to play with the variables to match produced results. I imagine my case volume is less since I'm running military WCC brass.

I'm also not real sure where they consider 100% fill. I A$$uME it's at the base of the neck. That would check w/ my observations as at 60gr it's maybe a 1/8" or less up into the neck on a straight pour. If I long tube it there will be a little space. Of course when you stick the boolet in you can hear it "crunch".

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Okay now I'm really confused.

This was the first ladder chart I posted...

208 Amax over RL22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 58.530 grain H2O = 3.800 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.848% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.5 99 54.00 2455 2783 43194 8998 95.6 1.456
-07.6 100 54.50 2479 2838 44485 9082 96.0 1.436
-06.8 101 55.00 2503 2893 45820 9164 96.4 1.417
-05.9 102 55.50 2527 2949 47198 9243 96.7 1.398
-05.1 103 56.00 2551 3006 48624 9319 97.1 1.379
-04.2 104 56.50 2575 3063 50098 9392 97.4 1.361
-03.4 105 57.00 2600 3121 51623 9462 97.7 1.342 ! Near Maximum !
-02.5 105 57.50 2624 3179 53200 9530 98.0 1.324 ! Near Maximum !
-01.7 106 58.00 2648 3238 54831 9594 98.2 1.307 ! Near Maximum !
-00.8 107 58.50 2672 3297 56520 9655 98.5 1.289 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 108 59.00 2696 3357 58269 9713 98.7 1.272 ! Near Maximum !
+00.8 109 59.50 2720 3417 60079 9768 98.9 1.255 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.7 110 60.00 2744 3478 61955 9820 99.1 1.239 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.5 111 60.50 2768 3539 63899 9868 99.3 1.222 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4 112 61.00 2792 3601 65915 9912 99.5 1.206 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.2 113 61.50 2816 3663 68005 9953 99.6 1.190 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 59.00 2827 3691 71685 9388 100.0 1.174 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 59.00 2513 2918 46639 9465 92.6 1.401</pre></div></div>

And this is the one I just posted...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 61.347 grain H2O = 3.983 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.450 inch = 87.63 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.807% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.1 100 57.00 2538 2975 46715 9587 97.0 1.403
-07.3 101 57.50 2561 3030 48064 9663 97.3 1.385
-06.5 101 58.00 2585 3085 49456 9737 97.6 1.367
-05.6 102 58.50 2608 3141 50895 9808 97.9 1.350
-04.8 103 59.00 2631 3197 52380 9876 98.2 1.332 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 104 59.50 2654 3254 53914 9941 98.4 1.315 ! Near Maximum !
-03.2 105 60.00 2678 3311 55496 10003 98.6 1.299 ! Near Maximum !
-02.4 106 60.50 2701 3369 57132 10062 98.8 1.282 ! Near Maximum !
-01.6 107 61.00 2724 3427 58824 10118 99.0 1.266 ! Near Maximum !
-00.8 108 61.50 2747 3485 60573 10170 99.2 1.249 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 108 62.00 2770 3544 62380 10220 99.4 1.234 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.8 109 62.50 2793 3604 64248 10266 99.5 1.218 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.6 110 63.00 2816 3664 66184 10308 99.6 1.203 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.4 111 63.50 2840 3724 68185 10347 99.7 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2 112 64.00 2863 3784 70257 10383 99.8 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 113 64.50 2885 3845 72394 10415 99.9 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 62.00 2895 3870 76510 9810 100.0 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 62.00 2592 3102 49751 10088 94.2 1.357
</pre></div></div>

WTF?? Look at the 60 grain line on both of the charts. The rifle/cart. data is all th same. Look at the usable case capacity.... Did I some how switch brass? I don't even know how to do that.
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Different bullet shapes or/and seating depths, lead to different <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">usable</span></span> case capacities.
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

The usable case capacity changed. The boolets were the same. Dunno how you did it I don't have QL.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Yup, didn't notice the bullet was the same. Well, with QL you can edit the case capacity if you want.
Maybe it has been done by mistake?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup, didn't notice the bullet was the same. Well, with QL you can edit the case capacity if you want.
Maybe it has been done by mistake?
</div></div>

Where would I go to edit case capacity? I'm at 68.20 grains.
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

See below (different case, same thing) ...

qlcc.jpg
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

Forget about Retumbo in the .30-06, too slow. doc76251 is correct about the steep pressure curve of H4831SC in relation to RL22, but here's some empirical data that Quick Load only hints at: Full power loads with H4831SC vs. RL22 will result in 100+fps slower loads with H4831SC. BTDT.

Don
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

USSR,
Do you have any ideas for a more temperature tolerant powder?

H1000? Ramshot Hunter or Magnum? Mag-pro?
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

H4350 and H 4831 are two of the Australian made less temperature sensitive powders that should suit 30-06 .
 
Re: Looking for slow temp INSENSITIVE 30-06 powder

I was talking burn rates. Specific gravity of the propellant determine much of the issue relating to charge weights. This makes similar burn rates dissimilar in charge weight requirements. That's precisely why I cautioned the need for load development and normal precautions.

I don't use internal ballistic calculations. As a retired systems programmer of several decades, I recognize the disparity between a calculated world and a real one. I put my trust in the empirical method, and the real world. Relying solely upon calcs can get you in trouble.

Greg
 
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