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Suppressors looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

logic factory

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 20, 2011
130
0
39
connecticut
i have spent some time looking into this topic and have stumbled upon thickness's i should use to handle the muzzle gas pressure of a sub sonic 300 blackout. i have seen some numbers posted and will add a safety factor to it also. i will ask for additional feedback when time draws closer.

as of now i think having the main tube threaded on the exterior with the end caps having internal threads will be stronger. i would prefer to have a internal threads on the main tube so that the exterior profile is flat but i need to be sure the design would be strong enough. this will depend upon how much material is left after thread are cut and also how many thread will be responsible to hold the pressure spike. i found literature that mentions how thick to cut thread without compromised material to much.

the baffles are already figured out with the exception of whether i would like to have the k baffles stepped or not. part of me says to make them stepped even though i have not seen any(?) k baffles with stepped 60 degree cone. the stepped should encourage more turbulence and slow down the expanding gases more -> reducing decibels.

i will probably keep only leading k baffle stainless and the remaining some form of aluminum; 6061 t6 or maybe 7075.

although all advice is welcome here is the more specific questions i have concern the end cap that attaches to threaded barrel:

here is an crude image to illustrate what i am thinking.
endcap.png

the grey annotation would be a stainless steel tube that will have many smaller ports in it to reduce the change of pieces of ss wool from falling into blast camber(?). the yellow annotations are stainless steel scrubbing pads i was thinking about using.

the end cap it self i would like to have some symmetrical large ports to promote gasses from exiting prior to the muzzle opening. i might build a small bell into the crown of the end cap to encourage some of gases to follow the walls to reduce it from then entering the center bore hole. i may even do something else different here to cause turbulence; i will think much more on these contradicting theories.


how common is it to have the gas exit out several holes in the other end cap? or do most prefer to just have center bore to exit gasses? ill post an image of what the other end cap will look like later.

i think there is enough here for critique and thanks for your time. i will update this as i continue to evolve this idea in my mind and on paper before i put into solidworks.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

Stainless steel wool more than anything would cool gas by providing a lot of surface area for thermal transfer to take place.

There are a few patents involving mesh, and one in particular cited good sound reduction, but I would stay away from mesh as an example of a bad technology.

Donald Walsh Patent

It will be easier for you to make a durable suppressor without mesh. Volume is probably more useful than the mesh anyway. So if you want a quieter than normal suppressor, make sure you use assymetry in your baffling and space baffles far enough apart to take advantage of it, and make the suppressor 30% larger in internal volume than competing designs or something like that.

As your internal volume increases, the strength of the suppressor will also increase. So as long as you have substantial primary expansion chamber volume I don't see a reason to resort to external threads that will render your suppressor ugly aesthetically.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

Stop and reset.

Start by reading much more recent materials.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
thank you for the feedback. when i have time tonight i will spend more time looking over the source you provided for me to read.

i will likely add an extra baffle than most suppressors on the market have to help increase my chance of making a product the reduces the output better than most.

i have also read and seen many examples of asymmetrical k baffles that i will model my own off of.

when you mention "mess" are you referring to the yellow or the grey annotation in my drawing? i assume yellow but correct me if needed.

thank you for also commenting on the internal vs. external threads. i agree with you on aesthetics and the large reason why i would prefer internal threads on the main tube as long as it remains safe.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
did you have anything specific you would like to contribute to this project?
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

What ROlling THunder is trying to say is that your idea is ancient technology. Silencertalk.com has a whole section on nothing but silencer designs. That would be a good place to start.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
which specific aspect(s) of the idea i have shared seems "ancient technology" to you?

i am familiar with the site and sub-forum you call my attention too; thank you for the thought.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

Everything to the right of the barrel threading and to the left of the right hand edge of the white background.

You can do much better. Stop thinking about extra baffels (little additional effect in lower pressure cans), asymetrical designs (not needed), mesh (not "mess") and begin to answer this question "what do modern suppressors look like?" After a short while you will understand why this is a non-starter design. If it was an engine it would be an aeolipile. You can and will do much better.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

rollingthunder51,
thank you for taking the time to share advice based on your experiences.

i am not saying anyone here is supporting the statistics for the following observation but i find it important to note:
here is the problem i typically see on these convoluted subjects with many technical variables that most do not take the time to understand completely and lack the attention to detail to understand what roles subtle features may have in the overall picture. there are few people that have the resources to measure accurately which variable plays what role in the final outcome. ones devices to measure lack the precision and/or they lack the attention to detail to extrapolate meaningful data. so what happens is people tend to hang onto the particular variable they have more anecdotal experience with and inflate its important and/or compare it to another design without having a holistic understanding of what compromises the other can had.

i do not want to create the perception i have all the answers but i will say this; i know enough about somethings to know what i do not know about others.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: logic factory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rollingthunder51,
thank you for taking the time to share advice based on your experiences.

i am not saying anyone here is supporting the statistics for the following observation but i find it important to note:
here is the problem i typically see on these convoluted subjects with many technical variables that most do not take the time to understand completely and lack the attention to detail to understand what roles subtle features may have in the overall picture. there are few people that have the resources to measure accurately which variable plays what role in the final outcome. ones devices to measure lack the precision and/or they lack the attention to detail to extrapolate meaningful data. so what happens is people tend to hang onto the particular variable they have more anecdotal experience with and inflate its important and/or compare it to another design without having a holistic understanding of what compromises the other can had.

i do not want to create the perception i have all the answers but i will say this; i know enough about somethings to know what i do not know about others. </div></div>

I think you'll find that some "home hobby designers"...but more importantly...industry leaders are using the new suppressor designs for a reason. Someone, somewhere poured BUCKETS OF R&D money into finding out what it appears you're about to.

The reason the modern suppressors are designed they way they are, is because a manufacturer or MANY have tested and thrown away more suppressor designs than you'll ever come up with on your own.
Rolling is not new to this topic, he offered advice. What you choose to do with it is up to you.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
understood. thank you.

that is one of the important questions i am asking myself; what compromises are these manufacturer's using to produce their suppressors. how many decibels are being sacrificed because there is a price point to maintain? if some of the elite mechanical sound minds got together with an unlimited budget with the only stipulation being size; where do i think they would try and improve compared to the various designs i have seen cut away of some suppressors?

this is the question i struggle with and why i will not readily adopt someones designs without better understanding which theories correlate with it.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

I think size is the ONLY thing that determines the how quiet you can get them.
They (MFGs) aren't cutting corners on the design...they are MAXIMIZING the design's potential with insane amounts of research to keep the product in a size that people will still buy.

The great majority of suppressor owners realize, actual suppression level isn't even at the top of the list in desirable suppressor traits.

Accuracy, repeatability, POI shift and size (Length, weight and OD) are usually the deciding factors an educated buyer will seek out BECAUSE, the new more modern designs are within 1-3 db anyway.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think size is the ONLY thing that determines the how quiet you can get them.</div></div>
that is your prerogative to trivialize this topic. i often think about how better off i may be if i could do the same. i think a large reason we do not see more complicated blast chambers is because increased weight and manufacturing time and resources. i am not convinced it is because of lack of efficiency.
i thank you for sharing your opinion. i would like for you to be correct as it will reduce the machining time and cost but i have to continue asking the right questions before i can rest this idea.

i put this part last to help increase the chances your mind is still open for learning as most disconnect when being called out. some unsolicited advice; using absolutes calls to much attention to ones thoughts and makes it easy for most to debunk.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

why waste time re inventing the wheel? my buddy is a top boeing military engineer... he tried designing a suppressor once.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What ROlling THunder is trying to say is that your idea is ancient technology. Silencertalk.com has a whole section on nothing but silencer designs. That would be a good place to start. </div></div>

What he said
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hayli277</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
my goal is not to re-invent the wheel but have a better understanding of what is happening so i can try and solve this puzzle better than some that may be making compromises i may not have to. it may not work out as well as i may have imagined when the time comes to execute. i am okay with that and i would not consider the time i have spent on this topic a waste.

would you mind providing the details on how your friends design did not live up to his expectations?
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
i am familiar with that site and have spent many hours there. i think i may have mentioned it above but the k baffles i will be making are influenced heavily by the commonly accepted design on that site.

is it a consensus that there needs to be no form of muzzle break and to remove the inner blast chamber tubing?

i can easily have the groves machined for the stainless spacer in the first baffle but not use it. instead using a spacer in the traditional location i have seen. i seem to recall many designs also finding it important to have some for of muzzle break, no?
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
most will be happy to hear, i do not have a manufactures license.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: logic factory</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.</div></div>
most will be happy to hear, i do not have a manufactures license. </div></div>
well get your license and start putting your ideas to work... nothing better than a little trial and error.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

if you really want to understand what's going on, then why are you asking for input from consumers?

Get busy with R&D, trial and error and learn on the fly.
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

Forget mesh, it sucks. A centerfire can is going to ruin it quick and you have to pay another $200 tax to replace it unless you send it in to a class 2 SOT. Go to SilencerTalk and read while you are waiting the six months for ATF approval. Anything that is about 8 inches long and 1.5 to 1.75" wide and contains at least six 60 degree cone or K baffles is going to work well on the 300 Blackout due to the low powder charge.

I used 1.625" aluminum tubing that is .125" thick and threaded the end caps. It is plenty strong for subsonic or supersonic ammo in my 300 Whisper. I also use it on my 338 Whisper.

300whisper.jpg

This is what mine would have looked like if I made a sealed SS can, but I used aluminum with threaded end caps and 60 degree cone baffles instead. JD Jones at SSK is a fan of reflex types cans that telescope over the barrel, I would recommend a muzzle mounted can to save weight. You can make it all aluminum unless it is sealed and cleaned with DIP, but use stainless on the rear adapter to the barrel and on the blast baffle.

Make it right the first time. Unless you have a license to manufacture and are instead making it on the ATF form 1, you have to do it right the first time as you cannot replace parts unless you pay another $200 tax or send it in to a class 2 for parts replacement.

Making a decent silencer is easy if you have a little lathe experience. I learned how to operate a lathe while making my first silencer.

Ranb
 
Re: looking for some feedback on a suppressor design

One reason they're telling you to look at newer designs is that it is pretty simple to design a giant sized can and get good suppression. The key today is designing a can that is smaller and lighter and has better suppression. Adding that extra baffle means a longer tube and what you will find, especially with a low pressure round like the blackout, is that you won't get much more from it. Get rid of the mesh, its bad news. It requires lots of maintainance and despite your efforts to screen it out with your stainless perforated tube it will get into the blast chamber. Last thing here, why are you messing with stainless for a low pressure, low volume round like the blackout? Its unnecessary and just costs more money and more time. Unless you plan to use the can on a .308 or something of that ilk use aluminum for the whole thing. You'll get better heat transfer with aluminium and a lot less work turning.
On the other hand I wholeheartedly encourage you to pursue your own design and construction. At worst you'll learn why cans cost what they do and why R&D is important, at best you'll develop something worthwhile and enjoy it.

Frank