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Low Testosterone?

Re: Low Testosterone?

Thanks FALex!

The Axiron contains 30mg of testosterone per pump. My initial prescription is for two pumps daily.

I'll definately keep reading (this thread has been an excellent starting point!) about all this. It's new territory for me so I always read as much as I can on a new subject!

How long did you use the first prescribed dose before you had your T levels tested again so you knew it wasn't working? How soon should I test again?

So is the issue that the topical treatments just don't work for some people, or are they generally less effective than injecting?

Last question: are all of these things: "estrogen, SHBG, T3/T4, D3 (Vitamin D), DHEA, etc...all of those, including cholestrol, hematocrit " tested in blood tests? I need to know what to ask my PCP to tell the lab to test for when I do go for my next set of bloodwork. Probably also Hemoglobin A.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Maim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Last question: are all of these things: "estrogen, SHBG, T3/T4, D3 (Vitamin D), DHEA, etc...all of those, including cholestrol, hematocrit " tested in blood tests? I need to know what to ask my PCP to tell the lab to test for when I do go for my next set of bloodwork. Probably also Hemoglobin A. </div></div>

If you have to tell your PCP what to test for, start interviewing new DRs for the role of treating you for HRT. Expect to go through multiple docs before you find the right one.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have to tell your PCP what to test for, start interviewing new DRs for the role of treating you for HRT. Expect to go through multiple docs before you find the right one.</div></div>

Yep, I know. I don't know what my PCP does and doesn't know as we have not disucssed these things at length. The fact of the matter is I just started HRT therapy three days ago so I'm asking to educate myself, not my PCP. Ultimately, I will likely go to someone other than my PCP for this, I think you're right about that!

Question still stands: are "estrogen, SHBG, T3/T4, D3 (Vitamin D), DHEA, etc...all of those, including cholestrol, hematocrit " tested in blood tests?
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Damn, Anyone tried dealing with Prostate cancer yet? You will not be a happy camper. I cannot say that is what the result of using any of these potions will be, but I know the chance is not worth it.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: takeaim1st</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, Anyone tried dealing with Prostate cancer yet? You will not be a happy camper. I cannot say that is what the result of using any of these potions will be, but I know the chance is not worth it. </div></div>

You make it sound like the people here are "juicers" or "roiders" and are doing this for recreational purposes or simply to address ED. That could not be further from the truth. Low Testosterone causes a drastic, NEGATIVE, change in the quality of one's life, and is suspected to be the central relating factor behind: male diabetes, depression, high blood pressure, coronary artery disease, sleep apnia, mental focus, etc.

As with the treatment of any medical condition, self-education and close monitoring by a medical professional are always required. In the case of Testosterone treatment, monitoring prostrate growth and PSA levels is of the utmost importance.

That being said: is it worth it? I think if you take some time to read through this thread would will see many examples of radical changes to the POSITIVE in the quality of life of the people commenting herein. <span style="font-weight: bold">For someone to say that their life is completely different and they wish they would have known what the issue was many years ago, reaffirms that it most certainly is worth it.</span>
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: takeaim1st</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, Anyone tried dealing with Prostate cancer yet? You will not be a happy camper. I cannot say that is what the result of using any of these potions will be, but I know the chance is not worth it. </div></div>

Its just like anything else , if its abused it will fuck you up !!

so will any other drug from 81 mg asperin to crack! , hell you can overdose on water

If you are dealing with low T levels through a dr im sure that if your not smart enough to have your prostate checked a couple times a year then your Dr should be and their are alot of other factors in most american males lifes and habits that will have a far greater impact than a typical dose of test
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

I went back to my PCP today to talk about low T therapy. He wants to do a sleep study for my sleep apnia first because this has a direct effect on Testosterone levels. A buddy of mine just had a sleep study for his sleep apnia and it made a world of difference and he is on low T therapy as well. The symptoms are real simular with the exception of low libido. Anyone looking at their Test levels might also want to take this into consideration.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went back to my PCP today to talk about low T therapy. He wants to do a sleep study for my sleep apnia first because this has a direct effect on Testosterone levels. A buddy of mine just had a sleep study for his sleep apnia and it made a world of difference and he is on low T therapy as well. The symptoms are real simular with the exception of low libido. Anyone looking at their Test levels might also want to take this into consideration. </div></div>

Interesting that you mention that. I was reading the data sheet (box insert) for Axiron. In it, it states:

(Section 5.9) "Sleep Apnea - The treatment of hypogonadal men with testosterone may potentiate sleep apnea in some patients, especially those with risk factors such as obesity and chronic lung disease."

Elsewhere it states:

"What should I tell my helathcare provider before using Axiron?
Before you use Axiron, tell your healthcare provider if you:
- Have any problems breathing while you sleep (sleep apnea)"


I find this curious. "may potentiate sleep apnea" means that it may increase the effects of sleep apnea. But the full statement seems to indicate that this is a potental effect of <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> testosterone treaments, and not specifically Axiron. I don't quite get how Low T treament would have impact on sleep apnea considering that that is generally a upper respritory system issue and not related to test.

Definately requires more reserch. Going to pull the full data sheet for the product and see if it goes into further detail. The clinical trials may also shed some light if any of the participants reported changes in their sleep apnea during the trials of the drug.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Its my understanding that the two revolve around one another. Those, like myself, who have sleep apnea, are at the lowest levels of functionability. Although I may sleep 6 hours, the constant waking up from lack of oxygen reduces that time to an hour or less real time. Its like climbing a mountain every night while suffering from oxygen deprevation, the body shuts some things down just to make it through the day. Lack of focus and diminished memory are two more symptoms that are the same as low T, which again is caused by lack of enough oxygen to the brain. My buddy that just had the sleep study done has been on low T therapy for some time. He told me he felt better but after the sleep study and 6 hours of sleep with a CPAP machine he feels like someone just flipped a switch. Definately going to have the sleep study.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: takeaim1st</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, Anyone tried dealing with Prostate cancer yet? You will not be a happy camper. I cannot say that is what the result of using any of these potions will be, but I know the chance is not worth it. </div></div>

Do you know you are not going to get prostate cancer? I sure as hell have no idea. So here's the deal...if there is a direct correlation between TRT and prostate cancer, then it might increase one's chances of getting it. However, new studies out of Harvard Med from Dr. Abe Morgentaler indicate there is no correlation between TRT and prostate cancer. His point is actually very simple and it is this: if prostate cancer is directly related to high T levels, why do we not see a bunch of 17-30 year-old males running around with prostate cancer? Instead, we see middle-aged to older males who suffer from this terrible disease.

Now comes the pragmatist in me...since I do not know whether I will ever get prostate cancer (or any of the other 2000 varieties of that shit), I might as well feel like a million bucks while I can. Also worthy of note are the studies that indicate low level of T leave a male susceptible to multiple other forms of cancer.

I would say, "damned if I do, damned if I don't," but because I actually have a good memory, I am now clear headed, have a shit ton of energy, and can workout like a gorilla on meth, I'd say I would be "damned if I don't!"

You guys who are worried about cancer, I completely understand, but if you're that concerned about it, you dare not look at what the fuck is in your Cheerios. And I mean that with all due respect. Our food supply, unless you eat truly "organic," is done for. The food we eat is not for nutrition, it is for taste, and it is absolute shit. Again guys, I'm not trying to start a debate or be rude, but in all honesty, there's no escaping this cancer shit...air, food, water, it's all filled with shit. Cancer rates in the last two decades have sky-rocketed, and I can promise you, it is not from TRT.

Oh yeah, that info on the sleep apnea is great. I had sleep apnea until I dropped 125 biscuits...it was a nightmare, and I am sure it contributed to my lower T level, but the lower T level remained even after I got rid of the apnea.

Mr. Maim - if your PCP is going to do your bloodwork for the foreseeable future, you may want to ask him/her to order these labs. I know my PCP did not order them when I was being cared for under him. I only started getting all of those items checked for once I started with my TRT Doc. Those levels are all super important...they can help get to the root of your problem and why your T level is so low.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

FALex, having sleep apnea and low T is a huge monkey to carry around. How did you lose that much weight dealing with both those issues?
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FALex, having sleep apnea and low T is a huge monkey to carry around. How did you lose that much weight dealing with both those issues? </div></div>

I eat very low carbohydrates. So it was a combo of the low carb with a ton of stair climbing, walking, jogging, and running. I started out kind of slow and ramped things up as the biscuits dropped off. If you can stick with a true low carb diet, losing weight is a non-issue, even with low T. I have been on low carb now going on 4 years, and yes, I would love to have a french fry (or a million), a pizza, and pancakes, but since it works so well for me and I feel so much better, I continue to refrain.

Honestly, I had what is called sleep onset apnea. This is defined as an individual who suffers apnea attacks right before they fall into deep sleep. Suffice to say, for 9 damn months I could not get to sleep...I simply could not fall asleep...it was horrible. I would scare the shit out of my wife, waking up and taking in a HUGE breath of air was horrible. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies. It was psychologically impactful. I was damn near afraid of the bed if that makes sense...so I would just sit in the couch until 4am when my body would just fall asleep from extreme exhaustion.

I had no idea what was wrong, went to the cardiologist, he said ticker was great, told my PCP, he said he did not know. Then I overheard a co-worker talking about their husband's sleep apnea. I started doing some research and that was it. The good news is, is that the first night of sleep after starting at the gym, I was able to fall asleep without the help of a machine (CPAP). AFter 9 months of not getting any sleep, I was hoping there was a correlation between my time at the gym and me not having apnea that night so I went again the next day...that night, no apnea!

This result created enough positive reinforcement for me to keep continuing to go to the gym. The fact I was not suffering from apneas alone was enough motivation to keep going, and I have not had one since (thank the Almighty!).

That apnea stuff is no joke, and if you're suffering from it, definitely get it fixed first before you do anything. Many times, it cures a lot of what causes folks' medical issues. Sleep is a huge part of leading a healthy life, though I did not believe it at the time...

good luck, brother. Hang in there.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Thanks man, I'm starting today on a no carb diet. I've done it before and no it's not easy but the alternative is not acceptable. We lost our only gym here at home and since I work in the oil field in a different place everytime I go out I can't join one in the area i'm working. Getting a bicycle to take with me that I can ride on downtime or maybe a exercise bike. At least I can get some good cardio that way.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

There is also something else that every one here should be looking at HIGH Calcium levels. The high calcium will cause lots of these health problems as well. If you have multiple test in a row over 10 and you are 40 you more than likely have a Parathyroid tumor. The tumor can be removed and you will feel instantly better. Parathyroid tumor and Tampa General Hospital. The only group of people who you should have do surgery on your tumor.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is also something else that every one here should be looking at HIGH Calcium levels. The high calcium will cause lots of these health problems as well. If you have multiple test in a row over 10 and you are 40 you more than likely have a Parathyroid tumor. The tumor can be removed and you will feel instantly better. Parathyroid tumor and Tampa General Hospital. The only group of people who you should have do surgery on your tumor. </div></div>

There are some very good cancer hospitals in the US. Anyone with cancer should consider M.D. Anderson in Houston. That place is amazing and has some of the best staff I've ever met at a hospital not to mention their excellent standard of care.

Back on track, regardless of what the cause of your illness or disease at the end of the day I've always found "quality of life" to be a key factor. You can live in fear of what "could" happen or you can do what you can to enjoy the time you have.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks man, I'm starting today on a no carb diet. I've done it before and no it's not easy but the alternative is not acceptable. </div></div>

Low carb is probably more realistic than no carb. Check out Paleo type diets, I cut way back on carbs and still cheat with a couple slices of pizza once a week, a pancake with the kids, etc. Cutting back on the empty carbs and most sweets makes keeping the weight down easy.

http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Blueprint-2...+transformation
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FALex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't remember if I mentioned this already, but for anyone reading this, please go google "xenoestrogens." Kind of a silent epidemic. This shit is everywhere, literally. </div></div>


Just googled "xenoestrogens" DAMN EUGENICS! You are right the shit is everywhere...even GMO tests on lab rats made the 3rd generation completely sterile.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Well, I just went the rounds of endochrinologist, urologist, and the endo guy won't prescribe Test creme treatment for my 212 count T level, because he says I have sleep apnea(I said I snore if I sleep on my back, which I usually don't), and my prostate is 4x normal. AAArgh! I also have moderate COPD. I've had some energy lift from SAM-E, 400mg, but if I take it after breakfast, I have trouble falling asleep, because my brain is cranking. Sucks being 72....
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks man, I'm starting today on a no carb diet. I've done it before and no it's not easy but the alternative is not acceptable. </div></div>

Low carb is probably more realistic than no carb. Check out Paleo type diets, I cut way back on carbs and still cheat with a couple slices of pizza once a week, a pancake with the kids, etc. Cutting back on the empty carbs and most sweets makes keeping the weight down easy.

http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Blueprint-2...+transformation </div></div>

Having met you, I suspect you can get away with the cheating unless you were once really fat.

I'm all in on the low carb/primal thing too. It's probably the easiest diet to be on and I've lost noticeable weight with it in a short period of time.

I think Gary Taubes has done some good debunking of the mainstream diet recommendations: http://garytaubes.com/
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Since i'm 6'1" and 370 lbs. I decided to start out as close to zero carbs as possible and drink lots of water since I know it's hard on the kidneys. After a couple of weeks or maybe even a month I might allow myself a cheat meal. Just trying to really jump start things.

BTW...it's not that i'm some huge slob, I still bench 300 and have a 58" chest with calves my wife refers to as meatloafs, my midsection is the target. Just your typical corn fed Oklahoma boy. lol
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Well I had my sleep study today, there's so many more side affects to sleep apnea than I was aware of. Besides chronic fatigue, morning headaches, and loss of memory, sleep apnea also causes the body to stop glucose conversion and retention of fluid in the lower extremities and around the heart. I could immediately tell a difference even though I only slept with the cpap for 3 hours. And I found out that children as young as 4 have been diagnosed with this, my sleep nurses 7 y.o.a. son is on a cpap machine. If you have any doubt whatsoever, go get a sleep study. Talk about a wake up call, the nurse, who has been in the field for 20 years told me that very much longer without the machine and I would have had a heart attack.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

to each his own, but before popping that many hormones id REALLY consider other options. any other options at all. also, why the 10,000 units of vitamin d? good lord thats a high dose. you need ample supplementation for sure but thats pretty insane. also whats the deal with vitamin c? your body can't even use near that much. you are just pissing it out without it doing anything.

as another poster stated, some activities can boost testosterone. everyone is different but serious hardcore lifting can spike testosterone levels. healthy diet, losing weight, etc also helps. just my two cents. working in the medical field i just see too many nasty things happen from long term hormone therapy in men and women.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tmckay2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to each his own...</div></div>

you're precisely right. I will, however, address a few of the questions you listed.

Taking the Vitamin D is simple: we do not get enough sun light, so we need to supplement with Vit D supplements. The amount taken is relative, really. You may believe the amount is too high, but I believe it is a normailzed amount for my body. There are no clear cut recommendations for an "optimal" dosing.

The same goes for the vitamin C...you believe taking 4 grams a day is a waste, I however, believe it is just the right amount. It should be noted that many of my vitamins and supplements are taken in a course throughout the day and not in "one shot." The Vitamin C is one of these taken throughout the day.

To address your statements about hormone usage: lifting heavy and receiving a "spike" in testosterone levels has absolutely diddily shit to do with a consistently regulated and normalized serum level in one's body. Do you know how long that spike even lasts? IIRC, it was about an hour after the last lift.

As far as weight loss goes in helping increase T levels - I lost 125lbs before even starting on TRT. My T was still low after losing all of the weight. I did that by eating low carb, and that I continue to eat low carb. That also had no effect on my T levels.

What you're missing is the fact that many males will suffer from low T due to damage or tumor to the pituitary gland. I suffered damage to it when I was younger. If this is the underlying issue for the low T level, there is no known cure for this condition. It simply is, what it is.

Now that I have addressed your inquiries, please address two of mine. You made the following statement, "working in the medical field i just see too many nasty things happen from long term hormone therapy in men and women."

1) What do you do, exactly, in the medical field?

2) What kinds of "nasty things" have you seen happen from long term hormone therapy in men and women?

Thank you in advance for your response.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Anyone else taking any AI's ? On my latest bloodwork my test levels were down and my E levels were up.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone else taking any AI's ? On my latest bloodwork my test levels were down and my E levels were up. </div></div>

their are several out their but you must be very careful be abuse they work so very fast , Arimidex and Letrozol work amazingly fast and will totally eliminate estrogen which will kill your sex drive !!
Extamaine (probably spelled wrong) works very well and you can adjust your dose a little easier and it's not nearly as rough on your lipid levels.

good old nolvadex works well but it only prevents estrogen from binding to the receptor rather than actualy cutting off estrogen production.

be careful of Dr's that want to dose Arimidex at 1mg 2x a week , it has a very short half life and will put you on a hormone rollercoaster , 1/4mg every other day would probably be an effective dose maybe on the high side
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone else taking any AI's ? On my latest bloodwork my test levels were down and my E levels were up. </div></div>

their are several out their but you must be very careful be abuse they work so very fast , Arimidex and Letrozol work amazingly fast and will totally eliminate estrogen which will kill your sex drive !!
Extamaine (probably spelled wrong) works very well and you can adjust your dose a little easier and it's not nearly as rough on your lipid levels.

good old nolvadex works well but it only prevents estrogen from binding to the receptor rather than actualy cutting off estrogen production.

be careful of Dr's that want to dose Arimidex at 1mg 2x a week , it has a very short half life and will put you on a hormone rollercoaster , 1/4mg every other day would probably be an effective dose maybe on the high side </div></div>

well stated. I started off with .5mg/week, but now I even split the half in half, to make it a .25mg dose every 3 days.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone else taking any AI's ? On my latest bloodwork my test levels were down and my E levels were up. </div></div>

their are several out their but you must be very careful be abuse they work so very fast , Arimidex and Letrozol work amazingly fast and will totally eliminate estrogen which will kill your sex drive !!
Extamaine (probably spelled wrong) works very well and you can adjust your dose a little easier and it's not nearly as rough on your lipid levels.

good old nolvadex works well but it only prevents estrogen from binding to the receptor rather than actualy cutting off estrogen production.

be careful of Dr's that want to dose Arimidex at 1mg 2x a week , it has a very short half life and will put you on a hormone rollercoaster , 1/4mg every other day would probably be an effective dose maybe on the high side </div></div>

What are AIs and what do they do? I googled Arimidex and Letrozol and they both seem to be for the treatment of early onset breast cancer in women.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Maim</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone else taking any AI's ? On my latest bloodwork my test levels were down and my E levels were up. </div></div>

their are several out their but you must be very careful be abuse they work so very fast , Arimidex and Letrozol work amazingly fast and will totally eliminate estrogen which will kill your sex drive !!
Extamaine (probably spelled wrong) works very well and you can adjust your dose a little easier and it's not nearly as rough on your lipid levels.

good old nolvadex works well but it only prevents estrogen from binding to the receptor rather than actualy cutting off estrogen production.

be careful of Dr's that want to dose Arimidex at 1mg 2x a week , it has a very short half life and will put you on a hormone rollercoaster , 1/4mg every other day would probably be an effective dose maybe on the high side </div></div>

What are AIs and what do they do? I googled Arimidex and Letrozol and they both seem to be for the treatment of early onset breast cancer in women. </div></div>

AI's are aromitase inhibitors. basicly eliminating the production of estrogen
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AI's are aromitase inhibitors. basicly eliminating the production of estrogen </div></div>

Got it. Thanks!
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Okay, I have been taking Axiron for... this coming Tuesday will be three weeks. I'm giong to go have my t-levels checked. The question is: what time should I go? I apply the Axiron in the morning around 8:00am. Should I have my blood work done before I do the Axiron, immediately afterwards, or later in the afternoon?

I also have been getting unbelievably tired for about 30-60 minutes every day around 5:00pm. Not sure if it is a radical dip in T-levels or blood sugar. Should I have it drawn then?

Eli Lilly's instructions don't say.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

do your bloods in the am, first thing. Do not apply the T prior to getting them drawn.

If you're applying your entire dose 1st thing in the am, try doing half in the am and half at about that 5-6pm marker. This is also an EXCELLENT way to mitigate the aromatase of excess T to estrogen
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FALex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do your bloods in the am, first thing. Do not apply the T prior to getting them drawn.

If you're applying your entire dose 1st thing in the am, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">try doing half in the am and half at about that 5-6pm marker. This is also an EXCELLENT way to mitigate the aromatase of excess T to estrogen</span></span> </div></div>

Thats exactly what i was going to recomend , low more frequant doses.

Also if their is some sort of relation with the blood sugar wwith your compound the lower split does will more than likely help that too
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Does it sound silly to take the body life gave you and make the most of it without altering it?

Prescription drugs are always the answer now. Doctors and Pharm companies are legal drug dealers.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it sound silly to take the body life gave you and make the most of it without altering it?

Prescription drugs are always the answer now. Doctors and Pharm companies are legal drug dealers.
</div></div>

What makes sence about NOT taking advantage of modern science to improve your health and well being??
So you mean to tell me that if you start feeling bad and run down , no sex drive poor sleep that you are willing to accept that as just getting old and not do anything about it , somthing as simple as applying a gell a couple times a day?

That sounds silly to me!! Fight back dammit !!
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What makes sence about NOT taking advantage of modern science to improve your health and well being??
So you mean to tell me that if you start feeling bad and run down , no sex drive poor sleep that you are willing to accept that as just getting old and not do anything about it , somthing as simple as applying a gell a couple times a day?

That sounds silly to me!! Fight back dammit !!</div></div>

The problem is, that even to date, no 'long-term' nor any 'systems' analysis of metabolomics or phenomics have been done on the effects of TRT.

Our body functions in homeostasis. So any unatural perturbations in even a single compound such as testosterone level will trigger a series of feedback and feedforward regulations in other metabolic pathways. Many of these side effects remain unclear to 'modern science', and could result in long term complications.

My view on the use of TRT is that, it is still best to administer it only as a 'temporary' Treatment for those with severe hypogonadism, and not as a daily suppliment to boost sex drive. Exercise and a healthy diet is a better option..

Also, most studies use correlation between testosterone levels and effects such as increased sex drive, mood and muscle mass to promote TRT. What they failed to mention is that, correlation does not imply 'causation'. Any scientist would have known that.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it sound silly to take the body life gave you and make the most of it without altering it?

Prescription drugs are always the answer now. Doctors and Pharm companies are legal drug dealers. </div></div>

However, what if I took the body God gave me and fucked it up when I was younger? What if I damaged it beyond repair? As JJones stated, should I just feel like complete shit the rest of my life, or should I look at a change?

This is an excellent point, Keith, and I appreciate that. This is an interesting dichotomy because I am in no way shape or form stating "Big Pharma is the answer to everyone's ailments!" I am, however, stating this medication is working for me. The long term effects are not truly known, but having low T leaves one susceptible to a number of other problems: high cholesterol, insulin resistance, diabetes, cancers, etc...what if having a normal T level mitigated the number of blood pressure, cholesterol, and insulin meds you might have to take IF you received any of these (or all of these) ailments?
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

I've recently heard that Testoserone is helpful in burning fat and having energy.

I guess T levels drop in middle aged people 28+ years old. I recently met a guy about 40years old at a course that was using a patch like a nicotine patch to get Testoserone. He was eating desert at every meal and working out at night and was not fat so it appeared to be working for him.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Could be worse than low energy and less ambition guys. A lot worse.
Im SO thankful to have all my limbs, eyes, etc everytime I see someone without.


You're going to see one of these Testosterone drugs on a "Bad Drug" Commercial.


If you're 65, and say "fuck it Id rather have 10 more good years than 20 old man years" ...then take the stuff.

But if you're 30 years old and turning to shit like this already then damn.


Two of my buddies talked about getting on shit like this. I gave em a huge load of crap about it and they changed their mind.
I prolly saved em from growing man-tits later in life
smile.gif
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've recently heard that Testoserone is helpful in burning fat and having energy.

I guess T levels drop in middle aged people 28+ years old. I recently met a guy about 40years old at a course that was using a patch like a nicotine patch to get Testoserone. He was eating desert at every meal and working out at night and was not fat so it appeared to be working for him. </div></div>

When guys are at their prime , say 17-23 their test levels are at their peak , they can party till 3am drinking , hit waffle house , take a 2 hr nap work all day , hit the gym at 5 kill a pizza buffet , then back at the club for 9 all the while staying lean.

as we get older the test levels start to fall off and we tire faster , don't rest as well and gain fat easier.

My dad is 64 and has been on TRT and HGH therapy for almost a year , in the first 6 months he dropped 2 pants sizes but dident lose weight ! he sleeps better and works circles around guys in their 40's. He is OFF his cholesterol and blood pressure meds and swears he hasent felt this good since he got out of the marines.

I can't possibly see anybody not taking advantage of somthing to improve their health!!

I'm on TRT because I fucked up the one good nut I had abusing steroids in my 20's and when I realized that wasent worth it , it was to last and I had no sex drive and couldn't lose fat for shit , now that I'm in closer to 40 than 30 my health is way more important
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it sound silly to take the body life gave you and make the most of it without altering it?

Prescription drugs are always the answer now. Doctors and Pharm companies are legal drug dealers.



</div></div>
I can understand your point to some degree but supplementing the body what it doesn't or can't naturally produce is not a bad thing. When your test levels fall naturally it causes a major hormonal imbalance in men. Testosterone gets lower, estrogen gets higher. Adequate testosterone levels are crucial to helping the bodies immune system. It also plays a huge role in memory, eye sight, muscle maintenance and fat loss. Doing 5 grams a week like pro bodybuilders is stupid yes but hormone replacement therapy to keep your body in tune is necessary for all the reasons listed above. Do you think taking vitamins is stupid? That's supplementing the body with things we don't naturally produce. Sure you can try to get all your vitamins by eating whole unprocessed clean foods but you'll be eating more than you wish and without a faster metabolism to burn all that food your body is going to store a lot if it as fat when it comes to carbohydrates, fat and protein. How about people with high cholesterol or high blood pressure? Both of these are killers and while you can definitely alter the levels through proper diet and exercise, some people just can't do it naturally and need pharmaceuticals to keep them alive. Do you take advil or tylenol? I don't know if you've ever gotten a sinus, ear or throat infection but the chances of you fighting of that bacterial infection without the use of Zithromax, Erythromycin or Ciproflaxin is very slim. The only way to not get something like this is to be religious about taking your vitamins.

Getting back to the topic at hand, HRT is not a bad thing when administered properly. In fact it is necessary. Testosterone is needed for health reasons in both men and women. Sure you can allow your body to use only what it naturally produces but if you could choose between being a 40 year old man with the health and body of a 50 year old or being 40 with the health and body of a 30 year old which one would you choose.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could be worse than low energy and less ambition guys. A lot worse.
Im SO thankful to have all my limbs, eyes, etc everytime I see someone without.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Very true but you have controle over the way you feel due to hormone imballance</span></span>

You're going to see one of these Testosterone drugs on a "Bad Drug" Commercial.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Anything is going to have bad negitive side effects if not used properly ANYTHING , you closed mindedness here is shocking. If you get a bad cut on your hand and it get infected are you not going to take drug to prevent the infection from killing you or would you let "gods will" control this too and just die a miserable death from blood poisening (im betting you'll have your ass at the dr getting antibiotics).</span></span>

If you're 65, and say "fuck it Id rather have 10 more good years than 20 old man years" ...then take the stuff.
But if you're 30 years old and turning to shit like this already then damn.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">So its ok to take TRT if you closer to dieing but if your still 30-40 years out then you are suppose to suffer and be a miserable fuck for the next half century?? that is simply an ignorant statement</span></span>

Two of my buddies talked about getting on shit like this. I gave em a huge load of crap about it and they changed their mind.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Judging by your previous statements on this topic im betting the "load of crap" you gave them was just that a huge load of crap because you dont have a fucking clue what you are talking about here!!</span></span>

I prolly saved em from growing man-tits later in life
smile.gif

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Again a blatent display of your ignornace on this subject , by "man-tits" i assume you are referancing to gynocomastia , i can assure you that your buddy have a FAR less chance of getting "man-tits" from gyno if these use their TRT protocal correctly than you do from getting fat as hell from low test and high estrogen later in life</span></span></div></div>

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">If i could take everything that you actualy know about testosterone , the facts , and turn it into gasoline i wouldent have enough fuel to run a piss ants mini bike around the inside of a match box
I sure as hell hope you are not as close minded with your gun building skills as you are with your health</span></span>
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Right on the paper my buddy had to sign, it warned about causing men to grow boobs (if stopped incorrectly I think).
Chill out. You aren't taking too much are you?
wink.gif


There is a big difference between a 30 year old and a 65 year old taking stuff like this. I hope YOU can see something that simple sir. If you're a "miserable fuck" without it at 30, then damn man I'm sorry but I think something deeper is wrong. And I dont mean YOU you, just "you" as in anyone.


Nothing is free. Everything has a nearly opposite and almost equal reaction. Seems true in powerful medicine too.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on the paper my buddy had to sign, it warned about causing men to grow boobs (if stopped incorrectly I think).
Chill out. You aren't taking too much are you?
wink.gif


There is a big difference between a 30 year old and a 65 year old taking stuff like this. I hope YOU can see something that simple sir. If you're a "miserable fuck" without it at 30, then damn man I'm sorry but I think something deeper is wrong. And I dont mean YOU you, just "you" as in anyone.


Nothing is free. Everything has a nearly opposite and almost equal reaction. Seems true in powerful medicine too. </div></div>

I again appreciate your opinion, Keith. However, I will respectfully disagree with many of your points. Yes, I am 30, and yes I supplement T to obtain a more normalized level for my age. Plus, it is not the T that will cause you to get gyno, it is the estrogen, which can be converted from excess T. This can occur if there is too much in the body that is not being used. As with all meds, taking the dosage amount helps, and not abusing this shit should be blatantly obvious.

I am, however, perplexed at your philosophy regarding quality life. You are okay with a 60 year-old taking T but not a 30 year old who feels like a 60 year old, wherein, the primary identified factor for this feeling is due to a low T level. You would rather feel like shit for, perhaps, another 40-50 years? NOt to mention, if the level is this low at 30, what would it be at 40, 50 , 60? Non-existent, maybe? Unfortunately, I permanently damaged my pituitary during my younger years. There is no fix for this damage. Hence the low T level.

You stated, "If you're a "miserable fuck" without it at 30, then damn man I'm sorry but I think something deeper is wrong." Uh, negative. It is not that anomalous, quite frankly. Multiple blood tests confirmed a low T level. T gets supplemented, and normalized, VOILA! Presto, Chango, dude feels infinitely better.

Your argument appears to be a quality of life one: You would rather feel like shit than slam a pin in your quad to feel better, but I would. Regardless of that, there's inherent risk with low T levels, but there MIGHT be risk by supplementing low T.

BTW - just for edification purposes, the current TRT protocol used by most primary care docs was written in the early 70's, according to my doc.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

pp<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FALex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on the paper my buddy had to sign, it warned about causing men to grow boobs (if stopped incorrectly I think).
Chill out. You aren't taking too much are you?
wink.gif


There is a big difference between a 30 year old and a 65 year old taking stuff like this. I hope YOU can see something that simple sir. If you're a "miserable fuck" without it at 30, then damn man I'm sorry but I think something deeper is wrong. And I dont mean YOU you, just "you" as in anyone.


Nothing is free. Everything has a nearly opposite and almost equal reaction. Seems true in powerful medicine too. </div></div>

I again appreciate your opinion, Keith. However, I will respectfully disagree with many of your points. Yes, I am 30, and yes I supplement T to obtain a more normalized level for my age. Plus, it is not the T that will cause you to get gyno, it is the estrogen, which can be converted from excess T. This can occur if there is too much in the body that is not being used. As with all meds, taking the dosage amount helps, and not abusing this shit should be blatantly obvious.

I am, however, perplexed at your philosophy regarding quality life. You are okay with a 60 year-old taking T but not a 30 year old who feels like a 60 year old, wherein, the primary identified factor for this feeling is due to a low T level. You would rather feel like shit for, perhaps, another 40-50 years? NOt to mention, if the level is this low at 30, what would it be at 40, 50 , 60? Non-existent, maybe? Unfortunately, I permanently damaged my pituitary during my younger years. There is no fix for this damage. Hence the low T level.

You stated, "If you're a "miserable fuck" without it at 30, then damn man I'm sorry but I think something deeper is wrong." Uh, negative. It is not that anomalous, quite frankly. Multiple blood tests confirmed a low T level. T gets supplemented, and normalized, VOILA! Presto, Chango, dude feels infinitely better.

Your argument appears to be a quality of life one: You would rather feel like shit than slam a pin in your quad to feel better, but I would. Regardless of that, there's inherent risk with low T levels, but there MIGHT be risk by supplementing low T.

BTW - just for edification purposes, the current TRT protocol used by most primary care docs was written in the early 70's, according to my doc. </div></div>

you are wasting your breath arguing your point with sombody who is ignorant to the FACTS but is rather hung up on the POSSIBLE side effects if not taken proerly.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

Well this thread took a slightly negative turn so I thought it was time for me to chime in.

I just want to say THANK YOU to all of the contributors and folks who have shared their personal experience regarding this problem. I'm barely hanging on to my 30's in age and I train heavy every week. I have noticed my recovery drop off in the last two years. I thought I was just starting to age but this thread has given me one more question to go answer. I'll be making my appointment with a local anti-aging doc this week to get my full panels done.
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could be worse than low energy and less ambition guys. A lot worse.
Im SO thankful to have all my limbs, eyes, etc everytime I see someone without.
</div></div>

It's not just low energy. Try spending your entire day feeling:like you had run a marathon, lifted heavy at the gym 3x that day, had the shit kicked out of you 3-4x in a barfight, not slept in 72 hours, etc... all while being unable to concentrate or focus and being extremely irritable. Try dealing with that day in day out for months at a time with the symptoms progressively getting worse. Imagine every day being an extreme struggle.

I'm 30. I've dealt with severe fatigue due to low T for the past 3 years. I've dealt with low to moderate fatigue on and off for 4-5 years prior to that. When I finally found a doc that tested my testosterone level, it was lower than that of an 80 year old man.

So please, tell me, what exactly am I to do? Nevermind the fact that I actually feel Good for the first time in years, I'd settle for Not Shitty. What sort of treatment, exercise, diet, prayer, or daily affirmation do you think would have solved my issue?
 
Re: Low Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wgsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Johns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could be worse than low energy and less ambition guys. A lot worse.
Im SO thankful to have all my limbs, eyes, etc everytime I see someone without.
</div></div>

It's not just low energy. Try spending your entire day feeling:like you had run a marathon, lifted heavy at the gym 3x that day, had the shit kicked out of you 3-4x in a barfight, not slept in 72 hours, etc... all while being unable to concentrate or focus and being extremely irritable. Try dealing with that day in day out for months at a time with the symptoms progressively getting worse. Imagine every day being an extreme struggle.

I'm 30. I've dealt with severe fatigue due to low T for the past 3 years. I've dealt with low to moderate fatigue on and off for 4-5 years prior to that. When I finally found a doc that tested my testosterone level, it was lower than that of an 80 year old man.

So please, tell me, what exactly am I to do? Nevermind the fact that I actually feel Good for the first time in years, I'd settle for Not Shitty. What sort of treatment, exercise, diet, prayer, or daily affirmation do you think would have solved my issue?
</div></div>

Granted their are supplements and dietary and lifestyle changes that MIGHT raise your natural test levels but the possible side effect are more than likely alot higher and the end result is not gonna be anywhere near what you would get from a TRT therapy.

Unfortunatly some people live in the stone age and think that if your born that way or somthing has happened that its "god's will" and you should just accept that.
I persoanly think that is bullshit , their is a medicine that will help me in my struggle to live a longer healthier life than im damn sure willing to try it.

I personaly know more than 100 men that are taking testosterone for low natural test levels , 8 of them are in their 70's and have been on it for more than 20 years , they basicly self prescribed themselves after giving up body building in the 1980's. Out of everybody i know that is on TRT i only know of one instance that their was an issue and that was an infected injection site from poor injection methods and most cases the guys taking TRT have a far better life now and are far healthier.

Some folks will never get it and at that point you just have to learn to accept that they are close minded an ignorant to the subject
 
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