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Rifle Scopes Mil or MOA for my first FFP scope?

Odysseus1911

Odysseus1911

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New member on the Hide and want to get into long range shooting. Before purchasing my first FFP scope, I need to decide MOA or Mil. Everything I've read seems to be personal preference with military-trained guys and Europeans advocating mil and civilian Americans advocating MOA. As a civilian lifelong deer hunter, I'm very familiar with MOA, so that would be the easy choice, but I'd rather "convert" to milliradians from the outset if there are real, tangible benefits or if I'm going to have to do it eventually for some reason.

My first scope will be tier 2 (most likely a Leupold Mark5HD or a Sig Tango6), but I'd like to own a tier 1 scope eventually. Don't know if any of the tier 1 glass is offered in MOA, but if not, I'll have to make the switch to mils anyway and if so, I want to learn on that system from the start. What do you recommend?
 
I'll go on to say that no matter where you ask or go to with this question, you're never really going to get anywhere and you're never going to get 100% of the people you ask to agree on one. Same shit as when you go to a athlete trainers, they will all tell you his/her methods are the best way to produce more muscle and burn more fat and their competitors aren't right. Same thing with doctors, only the one you go with will perform the operation on you the right way, any other doctors who tells you otherwise is wrong. I could go on but I think you get it. Some will tell you to go MOA here but most will tell you to go MILS. In the end, they both get the job done!
 
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Odysseus1911 said:
New member on the Hide and want to get into long range shooting. Before purchasing my first FFP scope, I need to decide MOA or Mil. Everything I've read seems to be personal preference with military-trained guys and Europeans advocating mil and civilian Americans advocating MOA. As a civilian lifelong deer hunter, I'm very familiar with MOA, so that would be the easy choice, but I'd rather "convert" to milliradians from the outset if there are real, tangible benefits or if I'm going to have to do it eventually for some reason.

My first scope will be tier 2 (most likely a Leupold Mark5HD or a Sig Tango6), but I'd like to own a tier 1 scope eventually. Don't know if any of the tier 1 glass is offered in MOA, but if not, I'll have to make the switch to mils anyway and if so, I want to learn on that system from the start. What do you recommend?
Click to expand...
In your mind, what advantages do FFP scopes have over SFP scopes?
 
I am in the same position as you, it looks like everything is going more towards mils, that is the choice I am making. If you ever want or need to sell, I think it would be easier to get rid of the mil scope.
 
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OP, your question is tantamount to asking "Which religion is better." And, like religious discussions online, it's gonna start the 8,764th screechfest on the topic for 2019.

So here is my advice.
  • If you have no background in MOA versus MIL optics, go with mil simply because it's more prevalent in this discipline.
  • Before asking a basic question like this, use google, SH search, or other search engine to investigate. You will find ample information.
Welcome to SH.
 
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giphy (6).gif



Is Google not working today? Seriously like 10 threads this month on this very topic....
 
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There is nothing to convert to. You shoot numbers with both systems. They do the same thing. Mil based scopes are easier as you are dealing with smaller numbers in a base ten system.

To put that in perspective, take a 2 3/4 moa for a 10mph full value wind. What is a 3mph wind hold?

Now take .8 mil which is the same angular measurement as 2 3/4 moa. What is the same 3mph wind hold? Easy peasy,
.08 x 3 = .24 mils (.2 in your scope).

The moa figures can be done as well in your head. The mil figures can be done instantly.
This is important when you memorize your dope like I do. I dont use a kestrel and i dont change wind values in my ballistic app. I memorize my dope and my wind holds. When i go out to shoot I take my rifle and ammo and thats it. No computers or wind meters or crap like that.

If you take a ballistic calculator with you when you shoot and plug in numbers depending on wind speed and directions then none of this matters.

MOA works, Mil based scopes are easier and faster if you dont rely on computers. I dont think that is debatable.
 
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Great. Like my third post and I apparently bring up the most beaten to death subject in the discipline. My google was working today but maybe my brain wasn't. The whole point for asking you guys is that I've read like 50 articles on the subject and 25 say mil and 25 say MOA. Thought maybe there'd me more of a consensus among this crowd given the prevalence of serious shooters here.

I just wondered if things like precision differences mattered to you guys (1/4 MOA clicks = 2.5 inches/click at 1000 yds whereas .1 mil clicks = 3.6 inches at 1000 yds.) Or if one system was more prevalent in the discipline. Or if the discipline is moving more toward mil or toward MOA. Or if I buy a scope and decide to sell it down the road one will be easier to sell than the other. You know, objective considerations and what not.

Carlm338, cfshooter, Downhillfromhere, Wade2big, and DaleGribble82, thanks for the objective answers, that's exactly the kind of input I was looking for. Everybody else, thanks for clowning on me, I'm sure I asked for it.

Cheers!
 
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Odysseus1911 said:
Great. Like my third post and I apparently bring up the most beaten to death subject in the discipline. My google was working today but maybe my brain wasn't. The whole point for asking you guys is that I've read like 50 articles on the subject and 25 say mil and 25 say MOA. Thought maybe there'd me more of a consensus among this crowd given the prevalence of serious shooters here.

I just wondered if things like precision differences mattered to you guys (1/4 MOA clicks = 2.5 inches/click at 1000 yds whereas .1 mil clicks = 3.6 inches at 1000 yds.) Or if one system was more prevalent in the discipline. Or if the discipline is moving more toward mil or toward MOA. Or if I buy a scope and decide to sell it down the road one will be easier to sell than the other. You know, objective considerations and what not.

Carlm338, cfshooter, Downhillfromhere, Wade2big, and DaleGribble82, thanks for the objective answers, that's exactly the kind of input I was looking for. Everybody else, thanks for clowning on me, I'm sure I asked for it.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
The turrets match the reticle.

No linear conversion.

You miss by a Mil you adjust a mil.

You miss by a quarter mil you adjust a quarter mil.

That’s it.
 
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Odysseus1911 said:
Great. Like my third post and I apparently bring up the most beaten to death subject in the discipline. My google was working today but maybe my brain wasn't. The whole point for asking you guys is that I've read like 50 articles on the subject and 25 say mil and 25 say MOA. Thought maybe there'd me more of a consensus among this crowd given the prevalence of serious shooters here.

I just wondered if things like precision differences mattered to you guys (1/4 MOA clicks = 2.5 inches/click at 1000 yds whereas .1 mil clicks = 3.6 inches at 1000 yds.) Or if one system was more prevalent in the discipline. Or if the discipline is moving more toward mil or toward MOA. Or if I buy a scope and decide to sell it down the road one will be easier to sell than the other. You know, objective considerations and what not.

Carlm338, cfshooter, Downhillfromhere, Wade2big, and DaleGribble82, thanks for the objective answers, that's exactly the kind of input I was looking for. Everybody else, thanks for clowning on me, I'm sure I asked for it.

Cheers!
Click to expand...


Every single one of those objective points you seek has been covered in the following. These were just the first 3 Google pulled up without digging...


https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/#js-post-7465720

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/another-mil-vs-moa-thread.6914634/#js-post-7375094

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/resale-value-mil-vs-moa.6878595/#js-post-6976076
 
odoylerules said:
Let’s just start telling all the new people to do MILS. That way, eventually everyone’s gonna be shooting mils and this will take care of itself
Click to expand...

I dunno... we have plenty of that type of behavior already going around in the media today.
 
Gunfighter14e2 said:
I submit more shit has been killed, an more targets have been hit, with second focal plain MOA scope than anything else.
Click to expand...
Bs.

Iron sights if you wanna go down that road.

This doesn’t mean iron sights or SFP is superior.

Are you vying for Sterling Shooters open seat?

Say Bone Support 3 times and the seat is yours.
 
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Anyone who thinks they are the same is or giving that advice should be penalized "likes" or posts.

While both do the same thing... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.. picking the wrong one will require an upgrade if you are interested in the efficiencies of taking the same langue. You absolutely want to shoot the SAME angular system that the guys will be shooting around you, in the future.. This doesn't mean the typical guy you see at the 100y public range if you have future pans to ever do more than that.

If you are on this site, I would imaging your interested in some sort of positional or field type shooting.. The language is dominated by mills and turning that way more every year.

If you are interested in Benchrest/F-class and all the high power type stuff, MOA is the language. The rub is, you don't want to get a field type scope for those sports anyway..

So if your even thinking of FFP, exposed turrets and maybe something in the 3-18 or 5-25 range, you'd be buying a field scope, so it would not be ideal for benchrest. Thus, as Bender said, get Mil and move on to the other important parts of the scope you still need to figure out.

At the end of the day you "can" get the job done with either, but because you asked this question it means you'll have a lot to learn.. Picking the correct langue to speak so that you can get the most form your future mentors will be a HUGE help.
 
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All kidding aside, each system has it's place depending your ability, target, experience, an ammo choices. I know that may sound strange but after a few years on the short bus, it does become clearer. If your a highspeed ammo shooter all the time an your targets can all be gathered up by your ret, then great. That's not my kind of shooting, but then again ridding the short bus makes you that way.
 
I believe a common misconception is: "I use a tape measure well, so I'll go with MOA"; not knowing that the measurements, while written the same, are not. It's a poorly educated system in the shooting world. I agree that "field" scopes, or "tactical" scopes should be purchased in MIL, due to its overwhelming dominance in the field. If it's any consolation to anyone; I use a tape measure, every day, and shoot using MIL reticle scopes. That's not to say that I didn't start with an MOA scope, and can not proficiently use one today..... dead horse, I know. But I figured, this time, I would contribute.
 
A good way to see if you like mils.
Find or make a friend with a mil scope.
Buy several boxes of ammo or reloading components.

Go shooting with them at various distance or short range on a windy day.
Use the scope for corrections.
You will quickly see if mils are for you or not.

It's your money and not a wrong choice possible they both work.
 
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Odysseus1911 said:
New member on the Hide and want to get into long range shooting. Before purchasing my first FFP scope, I need to decide MOA or Mil.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the OP. I'm fairly new here (a few months), too. Been doing the precision / distance thing, in earnest, for about a year. Do yourself a HUGE favor and join the paid Online Training section of the forum. The self-described "HMFIC" (head MF in charge) here, aka "Lowlight," has posted dozens and dozens of instructional videos there... and adds new ones regularly. It's WELL worth the $15 / month subscription fee. You can cancel at any time.

Lots of good stuff there! Promise! It will jump start you on the learning curve (and it's a big curve).
 
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