Re: Military Fakers - Fake Snipers
<span style="color: #3366FF">First and foremost, I am not trying start a pissing contest or call anyone out, I am simply trying to share the way that I have personally experienced things during my time in service and afterwards.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
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You guys are determined to go back 40+ years to find exceptions to what I am saying... and clearly there is exceptions to the rule.
<span style="color: #3366FF">Actually I can go back to my period of service in the 80s and 90s and find exceptions. Per above, the current Army Sniper School is only 25 years old. Even as of today, there are multiple Army MOSs (Cav Scout perfect example) that can attend Sniper School, be assigned as a Sniper in their Unit, deploy as a Sniper, and have a confirmed kill in combat, and still not get a B4 Sniper identifier. No doubt the further back you go, the harder it gets to confirm credentials, but just going back 5-10 years, it is impossible in my book to say 100% if someone is or is not a “Military Sniper” based on any one single criterion. </span>
As far as Modern DD-214 "missing key training" Bullshit!
<span style="color: #3366FF">Per your comments, what ends up on your DD214 is largely based on the extent of the school/training and how "key" the military considered it to be. Per your comments, it also comes down to how you managed the process. When I went for my discharge, I checked my DD214, all of the “major” schools/training as far as the military was concerned were there (Basic, AIT, Airborne, etc). However there were at least 6 schools/training that were missing from it probably because they were not critical to my MOS / Duties. One of those was a Division Sniper School. I could have pitched a bitch and probably gotten them added but at that point as long as it had “Honorable” under the discharge conditions it was all that I cared about. If anyone asked, I had documentation for the schools/training that was missing from the DD214, so I could just use that for proof.
Up until the 90s, Military records were still being largely managed on paper, and that meant a lot of mistakes, errors, and omissions depending on how critical the material was. Has that changed today, I am sure that it has, where everything can be managed on a computer and network. But along those lines, anyone with a computer and some minor editing skills can produce a copy of DD214 with anything that they want on it. Doubt they will try to use the fake for “official business”, but I am sure they could use it to refute a credibility challenge. They could also backup their DD214 with all of their certificates to include Sniper, SOTIC, and Delta Force, just see the link posted earlier! </span>
Sniping is an MOS, in fact in the USMC Is a primary MOS now and if your MOS is not on record, you didn't do it.
<span style="color: #3366FF">Great for those who served in the USMC, but unless I am wrong (someone correct me if I am because it wouldn’t be the first time), no other branch of the Military has Sniping listed/classified as an MOS. See my comments below on some of the other branches.</span>
Sniping as skill set is more than shooting, in fact a lot more... which is why so many candidates fail the course... 1000s of guys excel in combat and probably have a nice body count, does that mean they are snipers after all Simo didn't even use a scope ... he just shot hordes of Russians wholesale, if Private Jones was at a fire base being overrun I am sure he can claim 100s of kills too. reducing it to shots fired is a weak argument.
<span style="color: #3366FF">Problem here, how do you define “Military Sniper”?
Is it based solely on; completing a school/training, receiving a certain rating (MOS, ASI, etc), having served in that capacity, having served in that capacity in combat, having actually achieved a confirmed kill?
Obviously different strokes for different folks!
US Army – Military Police
They can attend the Sniper School at Ft Benning or the MP SRT Marksman-Observer School at Ft Leonard Wood. They can perform both LE or Military Sniper duties. Even if they attend the Benning School, they will still have a 31B - Military Police MOS, and they will NOT get the B4 Sniper ASI.
USAF – Security Forces
They can graduate from CPEC (Close Precision Engagement Course) and the USAF still considers them to have an AFSC of 3P0X1 – Security Forces, they don’t have a “USAF Sniper AFSC”.
USCG – HITRON
Some of the best “Aerial Snipers” out there, they have a NEC of 9545 - Navy Law Enforcement Specialist, they don’t have a “USCG Sniper NEC”.
Would the individuals above call themselves a “Military Sniper”, I would bet they would, and many others would support that claim.
Another case in point, the Army Sniper Assoc does not restrict membership to only those individuals who carry a B4 ASI. As I understand it, they base it on the documentation/justification that you provide, and if it shows the training, skill set, and job performance, of a “Sniper”, then you are good to go.</span>
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<span style="color: #3366FF">I am throwing this all out, because IMHO, there is not one simple easy way to verify if someone is a "Military Sniper". Biggest reason of all, you first have to define "Military Sniper", and per above that is not really that easy or straightforward.
Food for thought, Thanks,
M Richardson</span>
