Modifying factory ammo

Submarine Sharpshooter

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I'm all in on your results.

I bypassed 300 WM and went directly to 338 Lapua.
I think if I lived in the mainland I’d be right there with you. Because it’s likely I’ll live in hawaii until I die, I just can’t commit to the cost of a new rifle right now - I do like two big hunting trips a year, but that’s a lot less than I would be hunting if I still lived in Idaho. So that would be a lot of money and more importantly, time building a new dope card and then shooting enough to keep the entire thing in my head.

I’d rather get / load more ammo, get another Tangent / piece of gucci glass or go on more hunting trips.

That being said, a lightweight .338 Lapua or Norma - probably Lapua for brass availability - is still on my list somewhere.
 
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Ravenworks

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    It’s fairly pretentious and rude to assume that I’m not in possession of those very basic metrics simply because I also wanted to solicit for experiences / inputs from other humans such that those could, if they were valuable, help inform my decision.

    And then talk down to me for it. For example, I’m a very effective spearfisherman and freediver. Despite that, how often do you think I talk to other solid people in that niche? All the time, and everytime I do I’m looking for something they do better than me or something I don’t know such that I can put in my toolkit.
    Look here Jimmy, if you knew what you were asking then you'd apologize.
    Go to The Highroad or Accurate Shooter and you'd actually find out just how nice I am being.

    Here's the problem with threads like yours.
    It gets swept up by the search engines and here comes someone that is even more inexperienced.
    He reads a few post and calls it good, off he goes and the out come kills him why?
    You tell me.
    The picture of you using your harbor freight caliber to measure your round tells me all I need to know. (It's not Accurate or proper)
     
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    Ravenworks

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    I’ll probably take a pass on all of the above, but I’m sorry for whatever happened to make you such a pestilent dick.
    You do not understand how against the grain your original question is.

    Do you have a loading manual?
    In just about ANY loading manual known to man will spell out the rules.

    There's good reason there are warning signs at ever turn.
    You're special because your mistake was a costly one because you didn't read before you bought.
     

    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    You do not understand how against the grain your original question is.

    Do you have a loading manual?
    In just about ANY loading manual known to man will spell out the rules.

    There's good reason there are warning signs at ever turn.
    You're special because your mistake was a costly one because you didn't read before you bought.
    I think you’re significantly misunderstanding or deliberately misrepresenting pretty much everything, but if you want to continue being petty you can take it to DM man.
     

    Ravenworks

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    Screenshot_20210407-220430_Samsung Internet.jpg
    Nice.
    I'm not misunderstanding anything, you fail to grasp the dangers or the BASICS.
    I could care less what happens to you.
    I do worry about someone with a worse understanding coming along and calling it good.
    You should do the respectful thing and ask the mod to delete this thread for the sake of safety.
     

    NineHotel

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    I shot the original 155.5 Fullbore when it first came out back in 2007 or 2008. They went to a thicker jacket across the board - not because of issues with the 30 cal 155.5, rather with the 6.5s mainly - sometime within a few years after that.

    Seat them to clear your mags and drive on. There should be no issues with performance. I found the 155.5 to be a forgiving easy to get to shoot well projectile, something most Bergers are not.
     
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    Submarine Sharpshooter

    Bun Butterer
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    I shot the original 155.5 Fullbore when it first came out back in 2007 or 2008. They went to a thicker jacket across the board - not because of issues with the 30 cal 155.5, rather with the 6.5s mainly - sometime within a few years after that.

    Seat them to clear your mags and drive on. There should be no issues with performance. I found the 155.5 to be a forgiving easy to get to shoot well projectile, something most Bergers are not.
    +1. Thanks for the real world input on the bullet’s performance man. Sounds like it’s pretty insensitive to the jump.
     

    camocorvette

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    Thanks for the reply - what makes you certain it’s unsafe or a bad idea? The COAL differential would only be a reduction of .05 inches
    That was short answer. Home from work now and have time.

    Me, with my limited knowledge and experience. I would say no to you because you sound inexperienced.

    But I would record all COAL on a number of rounds and average. Pull projectiles on a few and weigh charges.
    Record data again and find out what powder it is and look at the available charts.

    You said "308 sight unseen" and "vendor failed to mention the rounds are over SAAMI specified COAL".

    Who are you buying your ammo from? Is it factory? Who? Is it reloads?

    Non the less you should be perfectly safe to push them down .05 and shoot.


    I would just personally pull some and measure because that's what I do. I just experimented on some tula ak ammo. I pulled a few and measured powder. Added a longer, heavier projectile and loaded to max mag length. I don't know the true accuracy but they shot minute of cutting edge in the field at 100.
    Ymmv

    **I've never bought ammo I've had to bump the bullet in.**
    Sounds like reloads for some other gun. I'm interested in staying away from your ammo supplier.
     

    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    That was short answer. Home from work now and have time.

    Me, with my limited knowledge and experience. I would say no to you because you sound inexperienced.

    **I've never bought ammo I've had to bump the bullet in.**
    Sounds like reloads for some other gun. I'm interested in staying away from your ammo supplier.
    I’ve loaded a few thousand .300WM rounds accurately, safely and with no pressure signs on and off since 2008 but never talk reloading with anybody, so I’m curious if I’m just not using some jargon or speaking in the level of fine detail you’re accustomed to, but no offense taken. That being said, I’m guessing it’s probably because you think this is handloaded or wildcat ammunition being misidentified by me as factory which is not the case.

    It’s factory ammo purchased from Midway and manufactured by Winchester. They’ve since added a tiny banner that it “may” not fit in all firearm magazines in response to a number of bad reviews.

    In any case, I managed to acquire 200 rounds of Nosler this morning - so there’s a 50/50 chance I will just sell this ammo or disassemble them all with the exception of the primer and basically start over, possibly with factory fresh Nosler bullets matching the complete ammo this morning and match its MV in the interest of only having one dope card.
     
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    KnowNothing256

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    Here's the deal, OP. You're getting a lot of "oh no, don't dare touch anything, you have to go learn everything first" advice, but the reality is that the core safety tenets of reloading can often be distilled down into "start with the manual data because it's conservative, and work your way up carefully." In your case, your ammo could arguably be called "manual" loads, because factory ammo isn't operating at the raggedy edges for obvious reasons.

    So, there's plenty of reason to expect that there's safety margin built into the ammo. Additionally, you've already established that the charge isn't compressed, which would be the primary concern with seating a bullet deeper. Typically, more jump equals lower pressure, since the bullet gets more of a running start at the lands; the limit to this behavior is when you start compressing powder, especially ball powders. This info, combined with the standard reloading approach of "start safe and slowly/carefully work up" would apply to your bullet seating issues too. If you want to be extra conservative, use 0.005" bumps, but I'd feel comfortable in my rifle with 0.010" jumps, especially if you can still hear loose powder. Seat the bullets incrementally deeper and fire them, while watching for pressure signs (stiff bolt lift, cratered/flat primers, ejector swipes, pierced primers are definitely too far).

    It's the same incremental process any of us would use to work up a load, you just happen to be starting with a load that was worked up by a factory and deemed "safe" (with plenty of margin, since they know the ammo will go into all sorts of firearms).
     
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    camocorvette

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    Glad no offense was taken. None was intended. Yeah, I think wording was at play. Now that we know it's factory accidents. That makes it easy to identify and say "yeah".
    I was thinking some ammo in a brown paper bag with a 3x5 that said "3O8"

    After reading the facts, I would ask for a exchange or refund. Otherwise if it goes south on that. Its just factory ammo with a seating depth issue correct?

    Id seat them to mag length and bangarang.
     

    Submarine Sharpshooter

    Bun Butterer
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    Mar 22, 2021
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    It's the same incremental process any of us would use to work up a load, you just happen to be starting with a load that was worked up by a factory and deemed "safe" (with plenty of margin, since they know the ammo will go into all sorts of firearms).
    Yeah, agree and that’s how I saw it but I wanted to verify that I was in fact not taking crazy pills when considering this, as I’ve never taken a completed round and worked backwards before, as I assumed but wasn’t sure that most factory rounds are going to be loaded well within the 62,000PSI ceiling such that factory variance in charge weights doesn’t put them in serious legal jeopardy - but wasn’t 100% certain. My concern was compounded by the fact that I’m dropping this in a gas and not a bolt gun.

    And, again, the input offered has overwhelmingly been useful (partially in reassuring me that I’m not considering something crazy)
     
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    sinister

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    From Midway's web site:

    Note: To maximize the accuracy potential this cartridge is loaded beyond the overall length recommended in SAAMI for .308 Winchester cartridges. As a result, cartridges may not fit in all firearm magazines.

    What is the overall length of this round? Asked by Norman 1 month ago

    Open Reply - Josh I measured every round from a single box (Lot 58RE80) - the shortest was 2.911", the longest was 2.925", and the average was 2.9177".
     

    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    From Midway's web site:

    Note: To maximize the accuracy potential this cartridge is loaded beyond the overall length recommended in SAAMI for .308 Winchester cartridges. As a result, cartridges may not fit in all firearm magazines.

    What is the overall length of this round? Asked by Norman 1 month ago

    Open Reply - Josh I measured every round from a single box (Lot 58RE80) - the shortest was 2.911", the longest was 2.925", and the average was 2.9177".
    Interesting, I had slightly tighter bounds - 2.916 on the high end and 2.905 the low and slightly shorter mean COAL of 2.911, but only measured 20. That’s imo enough to have statistical power but if he did them all (assuming he had 200 rounds), his data is better. I’ll take a look again when I’m closing in on the end of my Nosler.

    Edit: That being said, our means are functionally identical to one another but doesn’t explain the greater high end variance in his set, so I’m curious if I’ll observe the same thing when I measure them all.
     
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    sinister

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    When I owned a Krieger-barreled Paramount rifle for Palma I believe all rounds (loaded by the USAMU Ammo Shop) with Sierra 2155s and 155-grain Scenars finished at 2.900".

    That was a 28-inch barrel with 1-13 twist.
     
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    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    When I owned a Krieger-barreled Paramount rifle for Palma I believe all rounds (loaded by the USAMU Ammo Shop) with Sierra 2155s and 155-grain Sceanrs finished at 2.900".

    That was a 28-inch barrel with 1-13 twist.
    I’ll have to go a little shorter given the magazine constraint, but it’s hundredths of an inch.

    Also, if you shot with USAMU color me impressed af, those guys can definitely run a rifle
     

    jakelly

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    On longerangehunting.com a couple of guys are pushing the Lapua 155 Scenar to 3285 fps out of 300 Winchester Short Mags.

    Seems consensus is the Scenar is a thicker jacket than the Berger hunting bullet.
    Those can be pushed over 3400 in that WSM case. They still perform very well. @Submarine Sharpshooter if you don’t want those 155 scenars let me know, I’ll buy em.
     
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    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    Those can be pushed over 3400 in that WSM case. They still perform very well. @Submarine Sharpshooter if you don’t want those 155 scenars let me know, I’ll buy em.
    I’m thinking I can probably match that velocity in a .300WM then and I just got quite a bit more interested.

    I don’t punch paper or shoot ELR, I just hunt and because I no longer shoot a firearm very often, I favor those short exposure times and flat trajectories - ie, I’ll readily sacrifice performance past 1000m to get superior performance inside 1000.

    that being said, if for some reason I decide not to use them, I will be happy to send them your way. Please DM me a reminder such that if that hypothetical event becomes an observed event I will remember to send it to you.
     
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    Slab74

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    As a side note, if you are going to spend the cash to fly from the middle of the Pacific Ocean to shoot an elk, maybe buy hunting Ammo? Am I an asshole for saying this? Maybe, but a $5k to $25k trip is worth a few extra dollars on Ammo designed for the task at hand. Can you kill an elk with a target bullet? Yes. Should you is the question.
    Side note:

    It has always amazed me that people who will spend $1,000’s on camo and every neato gadget, but skimp on Ammo. Ammo is the most important part of the system.
     

    KnowNothing256

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    In the first post of the thread, OP described the Oahu ammo environment as “cutthroat,” so I’d assume he (pretty justifiably) is concerned about being able to source anything.

    Looking at all the empty LGS shelves around here, can’t say I blame him, if that’s in fact what it is.
     
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    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    I
    As a side note, if you are going to spend the cash to fly from the middle of the Pacific Ocean to shoot an elk, maybe buy hunting Ammo? Am I an asshole for saying this? Maybe, but a $5k to $25k trip is worth a few extra dollars on Ammo designed for the task at hand. Can you kill an elk with a target bullet? Yes. Should you is the question.
    Side note:

    It has always amazed me that people who will spend $1,000’s on camo and every neato gadget, but skimp on Ammo. Ammo is the most important part of the system.
    Hey, absolutely not intended to be rude >at all< so if it feels that way on the delivery end I apologize.

    Historically, the only thing I’ve hunted with is two different .300WMs, I acquired the AR10 in .308 just this year - so I had no cache of any kind of .308 ammo with any kind of dope card at all and brought it home in the middle of the biggest ammo crunch in post WWII America. I at least wanted the option to hunt with it given that my comfort behind an AR / SR anything is higher than any other rifle type. I actually just dropped my .300WM into a chassis in an effort to see if that makes me feel more at home behind the optic on that one.

    I continued to try sourcing hunting ammunition (which I did successfully this morning, see attached) but if that failed, which based on continuing local market trends seemed possible, I needed to at least cultivate an option on having enough high quality ammunition to hunt with.

    All that said though, I think you’d find a fair amount of people though that think match ammo is perfectly suitable for a hunting weapon given appropriate placement. Literally the only thing I’ve killed an animal with since 2011 is handload with Hornady 195 BTHP on top (yeah, I realize there are better options now, when you’ve got a thousand rounds of it and only shoot it enough to validate you still shoot rill gud, it’s going to last you a while). That is consummately a match round and everything I’ve put it through died within probably 100m of where they took the bullet. I’m guessing you’d find a similar amount of others on this thread that have done a fair amount of hunting with match ammo as well - Sinister mentioned he dropped a cow elk with scenars for example.

    And honestly, the only reason I even wanted hunting ammo is because I appreciate that short barrel .308 is a lot less energy than a 24in .300WM and wanted the comfort that I’d at least be delivering that smaller amount of energy well.
     

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    jakelly

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    I’m thinking I can probably match that velocity in a .300WM then and I just got quite a bit more interested.

    I don’t punch paper or shoot ELR, I just hunt and because I no longer shoot a firearm very often, I favor those short exposure times and flat trajectories - ie, I’ll readily sacrifice performance past 1000m to get superior performance inside 1000.

    that being said, if for some reason I decide not to use them, I will be happy to send them your way. Please DM me a reminder such that if that hypothetical event becomes an observed event I will remember to send it to you.

    There is something to be said for lighting the dog on fire. Try it. If you’re shooting those Hawaiian goats it’s gonna feel like cheating. Super high BC and ELR are great, but in the world of flesh and bone speed has it’s advantages. And those 155s at 3400 work just fine on elk.
     
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    KnowNothing256

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    There is something to be said for lighting the dog on fire. Try it. If you’re shooting those Hawaiian goats it’s gonna feel like cheating. Super high BC and ELR are great, but in the world of flesh and bone speed has it’s advantages. And those 155s at 3400 work just fine on elk.
    I’m way out of my area of expertise, but 3400 FPS with a lightweight, likely thin-jacket target bullet sounds like a recipe for catastrophic bullet failure, minimal penetration in a tough animal, and potentially a wounded/lost elk.

    But maybe I’m off-base on this one. Lots of folks have good success with target bullets; still, bullet disintegration on impact I think is a common issue when you get them really humming.
     

    Submarine Sharpshooter

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    I’m way out of my area of expertise, but 3400 FPS with a lightweight, likely thin-jacket target bullet sounds like a recipe for catastrophic bullet failure, minimal penetration in a tough animal, and potentially a wounded/lost elk.

    But maybe I’m off-base on this one. Lots of folks have good success with target bullets; still, bullet disintegration on impact I think is a common issue when you get them really humming.
    You’re very much potentially correct - your closing velocity at range might be fine but it’s possible that close in / <500m you might be playing with fire.

    Just a vignette and non scientific, supposedly the incidence of fragmentation on impact with 5.56 went down significantly when you compare vintage M16A1 w / 55gr vs M4 with 62gr - there was an increase in the integrity and mass of the round and a concurrent decrease in velocity. Again, a non scientific vignette
     

    jakelly

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    Inside 100 yards, I wouldn’t necessarily try for heaviest bone I could find, but I wouldn’t be afraid of it either. These bullets don’t blow apart even at 3000++ fps. In fact, they don’t even explosively expand. Maybe it has something to do with the very hollow nose acting like a crumple zone, like I said, try it.
     

    sinister

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    The Bergers are thinner-skinned than Lapua Scenars. Berger hunting bullets are thinner yet, specifically designed for some kind of dynamic performance on impact. Scenars and Match Kings are designed for aerodynamics, precision, and exterior ballistics (flight phase).

    A nice by-product of the Lapua and Match King mid- to ass-end center of gravity and the air space in the tip is the fact that once the bullet hits something solid (tissue or bone), physics and inertia explain why the heavy end of the bullet wants to keep going. The bullet nose may crumple, bend, or break off, but the base will want to tumble and switch ends (at least once), causing coincidental tissue damage.

    A Ballistic Tip going fast may explode close-in and cause a lot of meat damage. Farther away (with lower velocity) it'll expand but hold together, in classic mushroom-shape expansion. A thin-skinned match bullet may expand/explode on impact, and you may get a slow bleeder and shock kill vice a nailing, penetrating shot.