I was contemplating an AR 308 What is most accurate AR out of the box vs. the M21
- Thread starter FleetDaddy
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I think you would find the offerings from JP to be among the most accurate, most reliable available. Whether you pick up their pre-configured Ready Rifle which has all the popular options like the Silent Captured Spring, adjustable gas block and thermal dissipator or if you spec out a rifle fit perfectly for you the Full JP build will guarantee function, reliability and accuracy.
Out of curiosity, what kind of shooting will this be for? You can really tailor a build to your specific application by selecting parts like barrel, stock and accessories to adapt the weight and functionality to your needs.
Armalite 10T has been working for me. I've owned it for over 20 years, and I would not part with it for even a custom build. It's and oldie but goodie. The newer ones have SS barrels, but mine has a CM. Got a hard on for a SASS rifle and found that Armalite has changed it's lowers, since I bought mine, and support isn't all that. So, I had the 24 inch barrel, cut to 20, crowned and threaded, changed the hand guards, and installed an adjustable gas block. Less than half the cost of a SASS Upper, and the savings paid for a 762 CAN. 43.7 grains of Ramshot TAC, Nosler 155 Custom Comp, range brass gets .678 inch 5 shot groups @ 100 yards, consistently. Today begins the 9th month of waiting on Tax Stamp for the 762 CAN.
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RRA LAR-8. There is 2x5 shots from 2 magazines.
But honestly, gun was already shot 6 times when I bought it...
RRA LAR-8. There is 2x5 shots from 2 magazines.
But honestly, gun was already shot 6 times when I bought it...
My LRP-07 in .308 is solidly .75 MOA 5-shot groups at 100 yards with ammo it likes (FGMM, Sig, and BH 168 gr...it likes the Sig match 168 gr ammo the best). I have shot two sub .5 MOA groups at 100 yards. But so far it has consistently been closer to .75-1 MOA than .5 MOA.
In fairness, I still have less than 200 rounds down the pipe and I've been experimenting with WAY too many different ammo types to draw any finite conclusions. Nor do I handload.
Finally, my particular barrel also does NOT like having a suppressor hanging off the end of i. This does not make me happy.
Realistically there are a lot of options that could be lumped together....
Seekins SP-10/SP-10M
JP LRP-07
Larue OBR
GA Precision GAP10
KAC SR-25
LMT MWS
I have own all of the above at one time. Currently only have the LRP-07 and will never sell it (granted its in 6.5 Creed). All were solid shooters more capable than I was and all under 1 MOA. I preferred the JP due to the build quality, features, and accuracy. The real question is what's your budget and what features are worth the money to you.
Seekins SP-10/SP-10M
JP LRP-07
Larue OBR
GA Precision GAP10
KAC SR-25
LMT MWS
I have own all of the above at one time. Currently only have the LRP-07 and will never sell it (granted its in 6.5 Creed). All were solid shooters more capable than I was and all under 1 MOA. I preferred the JP due to the build quality, features, and accuracy. The real question is what's your budget and what features are worth the money to you.
That’s my experience as well, one of mine is a SS T, barrel has been cut twice and now reprofiled to .750 at the gas block forward.
Les isn't doing AR platform rifles anymore...
My DPMS LR308 is a hammer with the factory barrel. But, with the budget builds you roll your dice and take your chances. My gamble turned out well.
I called and confirmed it as well they are completely out of the semi-auto rifle game
Yeah it wasn't long ago that he came out with that news, they are still keeping parts and barrels on hand because they are going to warranty their products but as far as making anything new or selling individual parts I was told it's a no-go
Anybody have experience with Fulton Armory? I'm not a big DPMS fan but i have a lower i'm considering building out with the Fulton Guardian upper in 308. Criterion barrel is standard, Krieger is an option. I never hear bad things about Fulton, I just don't hear much. Unfortunately, i'm married to this DPMS lower-Norcal911
20" SR25 w/Mlok tube ( I got keymod, but it turns out Mlok truly is better based on a study by Navy --not worth changing out, but not worth buying new keymod shit either). It's got so many proprietary upgrades it's hard to call it a true AR but whatever. I love mine, one of my favorite rifles, period. Accurate, well made and it's also reliable. It's a pleasure to shoot. You can get 'em in 6.5CM now so if I had it to do over I'd probably go that route. But I love my .308 and it is a sub-MOA rifle. I've got .5MOA groups from some handloads I'm using, but I'm far from trying all the possible combinations. Never a jam or failure to fire either. The QDC suppressor is nice too, half as long and heavy as the M110 can, exact same performance. And it's a solid QD can that indexes each time. Just a joy of a rifle. But it's the only .308 AR I own, so instead of building, I wanted to buy one of the best and I'd always wanted an SR25 since they came out in 1990.
This is a rifle truly ready to go from the box (case). There are a few things like grip or whatever you may want to change out, but it's completely up to the user. There is no part that NEEDS to be changed out on one though and nothing you change will make it perform better.
It's costly but worth saving for, buy once, cry once sorta thing.
This is a rifle truly ready to go from the box (case). There are a few things like grip or whatever you may want to change out, but it's completely up to the user. There is no part that NEEDS to be changed out on one though and nothing you change will make it perform better.
It's costly but worth saving for, buy once, cry once sorta thing.
Lot of great Large Frame AR suggestions.
I will say, all my Large Frame AR's can readily out shot and can do so longer, between cleaning , then my M21.
The M21 requires far more attention and specific maintenance to keep shooting small groups.
My better Large Frame AR's will continue to shot small groups, when far dirtier then my M21.
My M21 will shoot great for about 150ish rds... then needs to have the gas piston / gas system cleaning to keep shooting great.
My 308 AR's don't need anywhere near that kind of attention.
I will say, all my Large Frame AR's can readily out shot and can do so longer, between cleaning , then my M21.
The M21 requires far more attention and specific maintenance to keep shooting small groups.
My better Large Frame AR's will continue to shot small groups, when far dirtier then my M21.
My M21 will shoot great for about 150ish rds... then needs to have the gas piston / gas system cleaning to keep shooting great.
My 308 AR's don't need anywhere near that kind of attention.
Sorry everyone I’m still out of US and my VPN crapped out and had to get another one here in The PRC. Been looking and reading last 24h and and convinced myself to go AR of some kind and not the M21. Comparisons whittled down to JP and GAP possibly the LRP. Some use discussions are better left off this thread. Likely 400m or less for majority of shots. Likely spend around 3500 and go with a NF for glass. Shoot FGMM would be my choice in Ammo preferring the 175 vs the 168. Hope to be stateside in 30d for 5weeks to shoot a couple times a week from 50m to 400m.
I've had GAP-10 v2 .308WIN(20 inch bartein barrel) for 2.5 months. It is my most accurate rifle now, compared to three REM700s. The GAP-10 avg groups sizes at 100yds prone are consistently 0.05 below (0.64 iphy) the best of the bolt guns for this year and hit percentage on 3/4 inch dots is equivalent to the best of the bolt guns. And 1st round hits more often than not on "face" (6x6 inch) out to 640yds off the tripod in winds up to 25 MPH. The GAP-10 has been shooting M118LR so far and is getting 2611 with 20rds each on two different days with MSv3.
I can't say it is the MOST accurate, I haven't tried them all
... but for a stoner type rifle, it surpasses my expectations. The GAP-10 is basically a seekins with a bartelin barrel and a few other changes.
==
Shooting heated steel at 500yds and 640yds off RRS tripod with the GAP-10.
thru lens pic of heated steel at 500yds (left) 640 yds (right). Thru the lens pics suck, at least with me taking them.
500yds aimed at torso and then face, hits resulted.
640yds aimed at torso and face, hit face twice.
==
I can't say it is the MOST accurate, I haven't tried them all
... but for a stoner type rifle, it surpasses my expectations. The GAP-10 is basically a seekins with a bartelin barrel and a few other changes.==
Shooting heated steel at 500yds and 640yds off RRS tripod with the GAP-10.
==
Can't the JPs (especially) also be tuned with the variable mass buffers and/or BCGs ?? Watching the JP video on these variable critters was definitely educational !!
I've got an LRP-07 in .308. Wish I had gotten it in 6.5C. The gun strongly prefers 168gr pills. I've shot a couple of .5 MOA 5-shot groups but otherwise, the rifle seems to be a .75-1 MOA rifle. My particular barrel does NOT like having a suppressor hung off the end of it. That makes me a sad panda.
Fit and finish is spectacular. Love the side charger. I am a bit disappointed in the accuracy TBH though. Was hoping for something more consistently .5-.75 MOA. But I have less than 200 rounds on it. So, perhaps, there is still some improvement to be seen.
My definition of "out of the box" is something on the shelf ready to purchase made in some quantity etc vs. all the custom JPs or buy this barrel and mate with this upper. lol.
Out of the box-KAC-LMT Sharpshooter-GAP10-Seekins SP10 etc.
My personal experience-LMT Sharpshooter can shoot sub moa with FGMM. Have not shot others in 308. I say "can" because I've done it some days and not so much others. I'm not a sub moa all day dude.
Out of the box-KAC-LMT Sharpshooter-GAP10-Seekins SP10 etc.
My personal experience-LMT Sharpshooter can shoot sub moa with FGMM. Have not shot others in 308. I say "can" because I've done it some days and not so much others. I'm not a sub moa all day dude.
I have used stuff from Fulton armory on and off for many years. They make decent M14's and parts for them, I built a 24 inch .308 upper on all Fulton parts with a creighton barrel from them, it shot really well. Ended up selling it for some crazy reason. I have a Fulton upper that I am putting together now, in a 6.5CM. I picked up a Black Rain forged special edition lower several years ago, The Fulton upper fits on it really nice, can't wait to get it finished. I am actually using the 13.5 inch guardian hand guard on it as well. I wouldn't put Fulton in the same class as JP, but for the money they sell quality stuff.
JP has a ready rifle inventory. It is on the shelf and ready to go.
I've actually had very good luck w/ DPMS. Two 308's and one 6.5 Creedmoor. All shoot very well. The Creedmoor wears a 24" heavy bbl, and the 308's are light bbl.'s measuring 20" and 16". The 16" isn't even free floated and still put's 10 shots in the moa ballpark. The biggest improvement made to each of these is a good trigger. I prefer Geissele.
SR-25 Match rifle 24" Obermeyer barrel from the factory. It's a shooting Son of a Bitch!
I think they still build them to order but they have all the parts on hand. I get the point though.
Both. JP custom builds rifles. But, they also have a small inventory of ready built rifles. If a rifle they have in stock meets your desires, you can buy that rifle and skip the build time. Othewise, you u can customer order until your heart’s content.
I’ll go check that out.
ARMALITE 20" Chrome-Lined barrels have been sub-3/8" multiple 5 shot groups since 1999 with fodder
that they like.
I think I've been through @ 5 of them since 1999. 24" SS in the teens.
I need to get back with Craddock on a second 24" 6.5CM barrel for an ARMALITE AR-10 DEFENDER (16")
@ $940 from GrabaGun. I purchased the the rifle just for one of his barrels to be mated/matched to
my ARMALITE barrel extension and supplied bolt.
Seems like someone wants to kill that company since Mark sold it.
that they like.
I think I've been through @ 5 of them since 1999. 24" SS in the teens.
I need to get back with Craddock on a second 24" 6.5CM barrel for an ARMALITE AR-10 DEFENDER (16")
@ $940 from GrabaGun. I purchased the the rifle just for one of his barrels to be mated/matched to
my ARMALITE barrel extension and supplied bolt.
Seems like someone wants to kill that company since Mark sold it.
Not to derail the thread, but have you considered a SCAR 17S? Mine shoots sub MOA consistently with 168 he AMAX.
Aint that the truth!
Same company now owns surgeon and I've heard of people here complaining about Surgeon isn't the same company that it was....
I threw in the towel on this question, mainly due to cost and a lack of standards.
I basically ducked the question.
I love a good Garand, have an outstanding one, and recently came to a brow-smacking instant of lucidity wherein I realized that they do make them in .308. I know how well the 30-06 Grand can shoot with some relatively minor tweaks; and I can probably accurately imagine how well it can take on the .308.
I am in negotiations (with SWMBO) to acquire the CMP Special (308) Garand. It's (maybe) not the tiny-grouping precision rifle we all covet, especially within this topic.
But it's The Garand, Baby!
The concept grows on one when they actually try to arrange the acquisition of the other alternatives. They're a lot more pricey. At $1250, the CMP Special is actually a bunch cheaper than many alternatives. Like $500+ less than the SA M1a. That was my first shocker.
For the aforementioned rather princely sum, one gets an admittedly pitted, but arsenal refinished, IHC receiver and USGI or newly manufactured internal parts. Then there's the new Criterion .308 barrel (consider the 308 in a 24" barrel), and a new American Walnut stock and handguards. Add to this the CMP Provenance, and the fact that it's been crafted by the seriously respected CMP shop.
For me, there's also the compatibility with a personally owned and significant horde of Garand-specific tools and gauges, and I think one can savvy the obvious (to everyone but me until just recently....) path of significance.
I'd glassbed it and provide a serious BLO finish. N/M sights, and some sort of reasonably inoffensive LOP extension.
Probably not the most direct question to the OP inquiry, but it's my solution to the 308 semi quandary. When I look at the cost and the subjective value; it's not a hard question for me to answer.
Direct mail order, ships in two weeks, no shipping cost. In my state (AZ) it comes directly to door, FedEx, no FFL involved.
Greg
I basically ducked the question.
I love a good Garand, have an outstanding one, and recently came to a brow-smacking instant of lucidity wherein I realized that they do make them in .308. I know how well the 30-06 Grand can shoot with some relatively minor tweaks; and I can probably accurately imagine how well it can take on the .308.
I am in negotiations (with SWMBO) to acquire the CMP Special (308) Garand. It's (maybe) not the tiny-grouping precision rifle we all covet, especially within this topic.
But it's The Garand, Baby!
The concept grows on one when they actually try to arrange the acquisition of the other alternatives. They're a lot more pricey. At $1250, the CMP Special is actually a bunch cheaper than many alternatives. Like $500+ less than the SA M1a. That was my first shocker.
For the aforementioned rather princely sum, one gets an admittedly pitted, but arsenal refinished, IHC receiver and USGI or newly manufactured internal parts. Then there's the new Criterion .308 barrel (consider the 308 in a 24" barrel), and a new American Walnut stock and handguards. Add to this the CMP Provenance, and the fact that it's been crafted by the seriously respected CMP shop.
For me, there's also the compatibility with a personally owned and significant horde of Garand-specific tools and gauges, and I think one can savvy the obvious (to everyone but me until just recently....) path of significance.
I'd glassbed it and provide a serious BLO finish. N/M sights, and some sort of reasonably inoffensive LOP extension.
Probably not the most direct question to the OP inquiry, but it's my solution to the 308 semi quandary. When I look at the cost and the subjective value; it's not a hard question for me to answer.
Direct mail order, ships in two weeks, no shipping cost. In my state (AZ) it comes directly to door, FedEx, no FFL involved.
Greg
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yes there are $$$
I only have experience with GAP, JP, and Seekins rifles when it comes to precision, large-frame AR's. Coincidentally, I would have no hesitation recommending any of them, but I'd definitely give JP the nod over the SP. However, you're going to also pay more for the JP.
As another poster already indicated, I understood the phrase "out of the box" to define a rifle that could be obtained off-the-shelf. If that is true, and is an important factor in your equation, then the GAP would not qualify.
As another poster already indicated, I understood the phrase "out of the box" to define a rifle that could be obtained off-the-shelf. If that is true, and is an important factor in your equation, then the GAP would not qualify.
Why not just build your own?
I built a 308 gas gun with an Aero M5 receiver set, Criterion 24-inch 308 Win bull barrel (from Fulton Armory), PRS stock, Larue MBT 2s trigger, APA brake, and toolcraft bcg. It shoots 3/4 MOA consistently and sometimes better. No problem hitting 1-2 MOA targets out to 700 yards so far. Cost me about $1,500 without optic buuut there’s no guarantee on assembling yourself
I built a 308 gas gun with an Aero M5 receiver set, Criterion 24-inch 308 Win bull barrel (from Fulton Armory), PRS stock, Larue MBT 2s trigger, APA brake, and toolcraft bcg. It shoots 3/4 MOA consistently and sometimes better. No problem hitting 1-2 MOA targets out to 700 yards so far. Cost me about $1,500 without optic buuut there’s no guarantee on assembling yourself
