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MPA action screws loosening ...

rustyinbend

GySgt USMC 1976-1992
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Minuteman
  • Dec 9, 2018
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    Bend, Oregon
    Just curious if I'm alone on this issue ... where the two screws on my MPA-300-WMBA rifle that connect chassis to action, keep loosening after 20-30-ish rounds. Worked with MPA and got their "lock-washer" solution, and also followed their advice to over-torque to 65 or even 70 in/lbs ... but it's still happening. They said "don't use thread-locker" ... but I'm struggling with what's next. The rifle is a nail-driver when the screws stay tight, and had a 1-mile shot with this rifle this summer. So ... anybody else seeing this? Anyone find a solution or have a suggestion?
     
    Try a new pair of screws.

    Threaded fasteners stretch when tightened. Maybe the pair you have has been tightened one too many times.
     
    Screws don't just come loose for no reason if they're properly torqued. You either don't have full contact between the action and the stock/chassis or there is a problem with the threads or screws. Since this is a chassis you're not compressing would or fiberglass. If the action isn't rocking in the stock then the easiest first step is to replace the screws.

    Beyond that, I always use thread locker and there's no compelling reason not to. If you're concerned the thread locker will act as a lubricant and change the the measured torque value then drop your set torque by 5inlb.
     
    To verify that the screws are loosening versus the action moving slightly try placing a witness mark on the screws and chassis. Just a line with a permanent marker on the head of the screw lined up with a line on the chassis. You can remove the marks later with rubbing alcohol.
     
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    Screws don't just come loose for no reason if they're properly torqued. You either don't have full contact between the action and the stock/chassis or there is a problem with the threads or screws. Since this is a chassis you're not compressing would or fiberglass. If the action isn't rocking in the stock then the easiest first step is to replace the screws.

    Beyond that, I always use thread locker and there's no compelling reason not to. If you're concerned the thread locker will act as a lubricant and change the the measured torque value then drop your set torque by 5inlb.
    I'm going to use this advice as an excuse to try some Rocksett. Thanks.
     
    To verify that the screws are loosening versus the action moving slightly try placing a witness mark on the screws and chassis. Just a line with a permanent marker on the head of the screw lined up with a line on the chassis. You can remove the marks later with rubbing alcohol.
    Not a bad suggestion, but ... the "wiggle" when the screws loosen is pronounced, and I can "wiggle" the barrel and action inside the chassis. The monolithic action/barrel are never loose, only the screws that mount the chassis to the action.
     
    How is the action fit to the chassis without the screws? Only suggestion I would have is to bed the chassis or use loctite on the screws.
     
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    I'm going to use this advice as an excuse to try some Rocksett. Thanks.

    Rocksett isn't really any stronger than blue locktite, it's just higher temp. I'm just mentioning this so you don't have to order Rocksett if you don't already have some laying around.
    I'd probably just use blue for action screws if I needed to. With either, degrease both the screw and action threads and don't overdo the thread locking.
     
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    I had a problem with my short action coming loose in the MPA chassis. I have the MPA factory rifle with Kelbly action. I found the chassis bolt hole had been worn slightly due to the loose front action screw. To take care of the screw loosening, I got a stainless steel flat washer that fit the OD of the action screw hole and a longer action screw. I trimmed the action screw as long as possible without interfering with the bolt closing, used Locktite and torqued the screw to 65in lb. I haven’t had any problems since.
     
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    Don't no if this could happen on a chassis but check to see if recoil lug is not bottoming out .happened on a McMillan to me
     
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    I'm going to use this advice as an excuse to try some Rocksett. Thanks.

    I wouldn't use rockset unless the fasteners are seeing heat that will melt the correct application loctite. I have serious doubts that the correct solution is thread locker alone. Assuming the action and stock are flat, I would replace the screws first.
     
    I wouldn't use rockset unless the fasteners are seeing heat that will melt the correct application loctite. I have serious doubts that the correct solution is thread locker alone. Assuming the action and stock are flat, I would replace the screws first.

    He did replace the screws. The MPA nordlock replacements come with new (slightly longer) screws and locking washers (nord lock style).
     
    if loctite doesn't fix this i'd be sending it back to MPA so they can bed/fix it. it's a factory rifle it shouldnt have this issue
     
    Bedding might be the fix but the appeal of a chassis is to not have to bed the rifle. This is a bummer to hear that this seems to be at least a somehwat common issue
     
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    Clean the screw threads with a cloth/paper towel. Take a look at the action's threaded holes and those should be relatively clean too. Put a small drop of blue loctite on the screw threads and torque to spec. Let the loctite cure overnight, a few days will be even better.
     
    The front screw only has a few threads in the action. I’m not sure if they are torqued from the factory. Since I started using Lock tite I haven’t had any problems.
     
    I'm going to lay my stupidity out for public ridicule. So ... um ... what is "bedding"? What does that mean? How could that help or solve my loosening screws problem?
    It's a compound that fills the gaps between receiver/action and the stock. If the action is moving in the stock, its possible that the screws might wiggle loose. An analogy might be tightening a doorknob and with enough turning it back and forth, the screws can become loose.
     
    So I would verify the threads in action are not bad

    Verify screws are not stripped

    If your chassis didn't have the recoil lug wedges look into adding that option I would think. MPA can mill the action for you.

    Verify the action to chassis is interfacing correctly
     
    Odyssey continues ... took it out yesterday after a few months of just not wanting to deal with it. All it took was 30 rounds to completely loosen the front action screw. I'm giving it one more try with (a) new screws, (b) new lock-washers, (c) Rocksett, and (d) over-torque to 75 in/lbs. Sorry ... but I just don't feel like I should have to bed the action in a $3,500 precision factory rifle. If this doesn't work ... I'm selling this to someone who can figure it out. In the meantime, I've bought a Barrett MRAD in 300-WM (also got barrel kits in 6.5-CM and 338-L). It's an AWESOME rifle - shoots sub-MOA all day long. And the best part about it is that nothing shakes loose after 30 rounds.
     
    UPDATE ...

    None of my attempts above worked. Long story short, I contacted MPA (via EMail) to RMA the rifle, and the President of the company, Phil Cashin, responded with questions and photo requests. He quickly figured out that my particular rifle was shipped with (a) wedged chassis screw seating, and (b) un-wedged screws (no lock-washers). The flat screw head sufficiently mashed down the machined ripples in the chassis, rendering the replacement screws with the right lock-washers unable to bite down correctly on the chassis. The machined washer ripples just slid along the flattened chassis screw seat.

    He's sending me a new chassis with new screws, and I'll use the box to send mine back so they can re-machine the screw seating wedges and repurpose this otherwise near-new chassis. I'm absolutely thrilled that (a) MPA took fast action, (b) my issue went straight to the top, and (c) Phil and MPA stood behind their product. I "was" frustrated. Now I'm just another happy customer. My problem just needed to get to the "Right Guy" who knew what to do to figure this out.

    I'll post again when I've got the new chassis, and verify this problem is permanently solved.
     
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    UPDATE ...

    None of my attempts above worked. Long story short, I contacted MPA (via EMail) to RMA the rifle, and the President of the company, Phil Cashin, responded with questions and photo requests. He quickly figured out that my particular rifle was shipped with (a) wedged chassis screw seating, and (b) un-wedged screws (no lock-washers). The flat screw head sufficiently mashed down the machined ripples in the chassis, rendering the replacement screws with the right lock-washers unable to bite down correctly on the chassis. The machined washer ripples just slid along the flattened chassis screw seat.

    He's sending me a new chassis with new screws, and I'll use the box to send mine back so they can re-machine the screw seating wedges and repurpose this otherwise near-new chassis. I'm absolutely thrilled that (a) MPA took fast action, (b) my issue went straight to the top, and (c) Phil and MPA stood behind their product. I "was" frustrated. Now I'm just another happy customer. My problem just needed to get to the "Right Guy" who knew what to do to figure this out.

    I'll post again when I've got the new chassis, and verify this problem is permanently solved.
    Great resolution!
     
    (Another) UPDATE ...

    New chassis did "NOT" resolve the problem. First test range visit ... same result with the forward action screw coming loose somewhere around 20 rounds into the test. RMA'd rifle has been in MPA's hands now for about two weeks, with no contact or status thus far. Checked on Thursday, and they promised me an update on Monday.

    If it's not the chassis, and it's not the screw/washer, then there's got to be something wrong with the threads in the action. I'm not a gunsmith ... but that's the only thing left that hasn't been replaced. I guess we'll see. More soon ... as the odyssey continues.
     
    Screws loosen because there's motion in the system. The contact between action and its support (Stock, chassis) is incomplete. Somewhere in the system there are high spots and low spots, where they should all bear consistently and don't. Forces are considerable and if there is clearance, there's going to be motion. Overtightening where clearance exists introduces distortion. Messing with the screws is only a band-aid.

    Do a rock test. Loosen one screw and check the barrel clearance. Then retighten and do other screw too. If the clearance moves, that shows the action is rocking and that the interface is faulty. There can be no other explanation, and messing with the screws can only temporarily mask the real problem.

    The cause can be originating in either the chassis or the action being incompatible with agreed dimension spec, and it could be both. Getting two different makers to agree on who to point the finger at is usually problematic. Small clearances are assumed; all specs have tolerances, and they can stack up.

    Failing such agreement, I would try a skim coat bedding solution; but only if the potential warrantee issues can't be resolved. That's because if one initiates gunsmithing solutions before exhausting warrantee options; they void any warrantee. It's a rock and a hard place situation.

    My own approach assumes that warranties can be problematic, and I generally find a fix of my own rather than engage in contractual wrangling. But that could also defeat many valuable purposes. I do this because at my age, I could probably die of old age before all of the lawyers get their heads pointed in a single direction. Time is a luxury; and when old, such luxuries evaporate. Assuming responsibility takes on new meaning in old age, and can favor the bolder approach.

    I learned this approach from my Eldest Brother. He taught me how to try temporary solutions, like how he bedded Garands with paper mache, doing an end run around Army intramural military match shooting rules.

    The paper mache was removable.


    Ah, never mind; I didn't realize I was dealing with an Askhole.

    So sorry for caring...

    What I should have done was ignore him in the first place; but thank goodness that's so easily resolved.

    Greg
     
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    Screws loosen because there's motion in the system. The contact between action and its support (Stock, chassis) is incomplete. Somewhere in the system there are high spots and low spots, where they should all bear consistently and don't. Forces are considerable and if there is clearance, there's going to be motion. Overtightening where clearance exists introduces distortion. Messing with the screws is only a band-aid.

    Do a rock test. Loosen one screw and check the barrel clearance. Then retighten and do other screw too. If the clearance moves, that shows the action is rocking and that the interface is faulty. There can be no other explanation, and messing with the screws can only temporarily mask the real problem.

    The cause can be originating in either the chassis or the action being incompatible with agreed dimension spec, and it could be both. Getting two different makers to agree on who to point the finger at is usually problematic. Small clearances are assumed; all specs have tolerances, and they can stack up.

    Failing such agreement, I would try a skim coat bedding solution; but only if the potential warrantee issues can't be resolved. That's because if one initiates gunsmithing solutions before exhausting warrantee options; they void any warrantee. It's a rock and a hard place situation.

    My own approach assumes that warranties can be problematic, and I generally find a fix of my own rather than engage in contractual wrangling. But that could also defeat many valuable purposes. I do this because at my age, I could probably die of old age before all of the lawyers get their heads pointed in a single direction. Time is a luxury; and when old, such luxuries evaporate. Assuming responsibility takes on new meaning in old age, and can favor the bolder approach.

    I learned this approach from my Eldest Brother. He taught me how to try temporary solutions, like how he bedded Garands with paper mache, doing an end run around Army intramural military match shooting rules.

    The paper mache was removable.

    Greg
    Dude ... it's a $3,500 match-grade precision rifle system. I shouldn't have to bed anything other than my wife. The rifle should shoot straight, and the action screws should stay tight. MPA needs to make it right. If I'd built the thing from piece-parts ... then I totally agree. But having to make major modification for the rifle to work properly ... in this situation ... is a non-starter for me. I'm just sayin' ...
     
    You are making sure backside of recoil lug is against chassis, before you tighten screws. Have the screws loose, then stand rifle up on buttpad, push barreled action down towards buttpad, then torque. As mentioned, the only thing that will cause screws to loosen is poor action to stock fit or threads on screws/action threaded holes are in poor fitment.
     
    Oh, and alot of high dollar stuff needs bedded, not all the time, but sometime. Right, wrong, or indifferent doesn't matter, results on paper and steel tell the story. Or in thus case loose screws.
     
    manners gen1 minichassis and aics chassis "don't need" bedded, but i never saw one bedded that didn't tighten up groups, improve consistency, help retain zero,, and get rid of random flyers.
     
    You are making sure backside of recoil lug is against chassis, before you tighten screws. Have the screws loose, then stand rifle up on buttpad, push barreled action down towards buttpad, then torque. As mentioned, the only thing that will cause screws to loosen is poor action to stock fit or threads on screws/action threaded holes are in poor fitment.
    That's exactly what I'm doing ... following the spec precisely ... still no joy. I'm thinking the threads on the action must be hosed.
     
    manners gen1 minichassis and aics chassis "don't need" bedded, but i never saw one bedded that didn't tighten up groups, improve consistency, help retain zero,, and get rid of random flyers.

    while this may be true as a fact, it's also a big negative against those vendor's claims. Why else pay the premium on those stocks if, after all, you still need to bed?

    In relation to the AICS, I'd take the seriously strong hint from the fact the factory rifles are epoxied...!

    BTW- to the OP "the only thing I should be bedding is my wife". Sir, you won the internet today...
     
    If I may say, your chassis trials are worth it for that line alone...

    I'd be interested why you chose a MRAD over the option of an AI. I think price wise they're equal?
     
    while this may be true as a fact, it's also a big negative against those vendor's claims. Why else pay the premium on those stocks if, after all, you still need to bed?

    In relation to the AICS, I'd take the seriously strong hint from the fact the factory rifles are epoxied...!

    BTW- to the OP "the only thing I should be bedding is my wife". Sir, you won the internet today...

    Not all ai's are bedded. The issue with aics and manners gen1 mini chassis is they are both v blocks. On rem700 and clones, the tang narrows and loses contact on V in front of rear screw. Essentially making a teeter totter. All they require is a small pad bedded for tang to be supported. Most reputable gunsmiths bed the tang on aics and gen1 manners, its simple and is worth the 15min it takes to do it. Manners specifically added a pad for tang to sit on in their gen2 mini chassis, and aics ax chassis have narrower v for tang to be supported. I see no need to bed those
     
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    Everything you
    Not all ai's are bedded. The issue with aics and manners gen1 mini chassis is they are both v blocks. On rem700 and clones, the tang narrows and loses contact on V in front of rear screw. Essentially making a teeter totter. All they require is a small pad bedded for tang to be supported. Most reputable gunsmiths bed the tang on aics and gen1 manners, its simple and is worth the 15min it takes to do it. Manners specifically added a pad for tang to sit on in their gen2 mini chassis, and aics ax chassis have narrower v for tang to be supported. I see no need to bed those

    everything you say makes perfect sense - no argument against the need. However, it does run contrary to the marketing is my point. And perhaps in the case of the OP, we're seeing a glaring case of that. Perhaps the best or truly 'bedless' chassis are the ones intended for cylindrical actions without V blocks?
     
    If I may say, your chassis trials are worth it for that line alone...

    I'd be interested why you chose a MRAD over the option of an AI. I think price wise they're equal?
    I was a Marine. Their snipers shoot MRAD's. Plus ... I got a really good deal, and half-off the second barrel kit. Couldn't find a AI anywhere near what I paid for my MRAD. So happy with my choice. It's an AWESOME platform. Sub-MOA with all three barrels I have, and super easy to service, barrel change, and shoot.
     
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    I was a Marine. Their snipers shoot MRAD's. Plus ... I got a really good deal, and half-off the second barrel kit. Couldn't find a AI anywhere near what I paid for my MRAD. So happy with my choice. It's an AWESOME platform. Sub-MOA with all three barrels I have, and super easy to service, barrel change, and shoot.

    sweet. Enjoy it in good health mate.
     
    Everything you


    everything you say makes perfect sense - no argument against the need. However, it does run contrary to the marketing is my point. And perhaps in the case of the OP, we're seeing a glaring case of that. Perhaps the best or truly 'bedless' chassis are the ones intended for cylindrical actions without V blocks?

    Not really, because most of the time there is no need to bed, but there are some funky actions out there that don't play well with the V block. The problem isn't the block, its the kinks in the tube you are laying in it. If you find one of these actions, its either bed it, or get a different action. Thats life.
     
    Not really, because most of the time there is no need to bed, but there are some funky actions out there that don't play well with the V block. The problem isn't the block, its the kinks in the tube you are laying in it. If you find one of these actions, its either bed it, or get a different action. Thats life.
    well, true about funky actions, but this was a factory rifle, from the chassis company. It'd be very weird if they picked an action that was not compatible for their out of box design and not alinged with the messaging to the customer.

    I'm conscious of coming across as though I'm attacking the company. I'm not, it's just a reflection on the difference between reality of messaging and user experience within this industry in general that has me peaked is all.
     
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    Actions are not all straight in their outside dimensions. There can be a slight warp from heat treating, or some other cause, that is simple fact of life. When you take that 1 in however many actions, that isn't quite straight enough to align with a V-block, it is going to try and straighten that action, when you tighten the action screws. It puts the system under stress. They did not "choose an action that was not compatible." Some actions from the same model and manufacture for this reason will not shoot in a V-block without bedding, or at least shimming the rear tang to take the stress off the action. Its a simple tolerance issue that pops up from time to time. Something like this might get caught and bedded away before they send you a custom gun, but thats not going to happen with a mass produced rifle.
     
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    20200607_194248.jpg
    Sometimes its just a v block doing v block things, lol. This older aics has had the tang bedded for about 5 different actions over the years. A rem, tl3, axiom, deadline, and an impact. All those actions, from the lowly rem and axiom to the very good tl3/deadline/ impact, all exhibited no tang support caused by width of V to action. Its been bedded, then ground out later, then rebeded for different action so many times. When a dremel fires up, the chassis gets nervous, lol.
     
    View attachment 7367571Sometimes its just a v block doing v block things, lol. This older aics has had the tang bedded for about 5 different actions over the years. A rem, tl3, axiom, deadline, and an impact. All those actions, from the lowly rem and axiom to the very good tl3/deadline/ impact, all exhibited no tang support caused by width of V to action. Its been bedded, then ground out later, then rebeded for different action so many times. When a dremel fires up, the chassis gets nervous, lol.
    I really just need to learn how to bed. Especially if I can somewhat remove it when I’m moving on to the next one. Kills the resale value, or so it seems too.
     
    A little blob in the rear tang area, is not hard to pop out of the chassis with some heat and a screw driver.
     
    I always drill a few shallow 1/16" holes for bedding to lock on to aluminum chassis. Bedding rear tang is super easy. Pull trigger off, get a 2" long 1/4-28 screw and cut head off. Add tape to it so that it just barely goes into rear chassis hole. Screw it in rear action screw hole, acts as a guide during bedding. Put release agen on action and index screw. Mix bedding, apply blob to area on chassis, drop action in and torque front screw to 65"/lb. When doing a complete bedding job I use 2 index screws and surgical tubing to hold action to stock. I found that when just bedding the tang area, it results in no stress to action if front screw is torqued to 65. Clean up excess bedding as it spooges out with a popsicle stick.
     
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    I should have mentioned, ill put action in stock for mock up. Use masking tape to protect stock finish from bedding compound. Going around tang with a tape will result in a really clean look. Use popsicle stick with end cut flat or slightly angled. Clean up bedding around tang with it. After cured, use an exacto knife to trace tang of action, cutting down to stock surface. When you pull the tape off, you won't be able to tell its even bedded with action in place.
     
    Update on my odyssey that started this thread ... the MPA 300WMBA is back at the "Mother Ship" in Georgia. After 3 weeks of screwing with it (no pun intended), they found a hairline fracture in the recoil lug that was causing micro-vibrations in the action and was preventing the forward action screw from setting properly and staying tight. Fix and testing in progress. Hoping to get it back soon. Apparently this is a VERY rare problem, and was tough to isolate. I'm just glad it "wasn't me".
     
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