Sidearms & Scatterguns my 460 Rowland experiment on a Glock 21 **PICS UP**RANGE REPORT**

[ZLBubba]

Well, I just bought a good spread of land on a mountain top in Clarke County Virginia and figured I had a good excuse to get a pistol that would handle black bear. Instead of going with a 44 mag wheel gun, I decided to go with a Lonewolf full upper conversion for the 460 Rowland to put on my Glock 21 that I've put a Zev trigger and stippled to my liking. After researching all the various aspects of getting that round to work right, I found that a full steel long slide, 6.6" threaded barrel with a compensator and a heavy recoil spring would be just the ticket. It set me back a bit but I'm on pins and needles until it shows up next week. Can't wait to see it, and having a semiauto pistol with 13+1 capacity and shooting 255gr hard cast FN bullets at 1300 fps (~1000 ft/lbs ME) is pretty damn appealing.

I'm planning on doing a full review on the Lonewolf conversion and how the 460 performs with this setup. Ideally, this will be my woods pistol going forward, provided it eats everything I give it and shoots straight. I'd love to hear others' experiences with both the cartridge and the Lonewolf conversions. Up until now I've preferred KKM precision barrels but wanted a one-stop shop to build out the full conversion. I may get a KKM barrel later if I don't like the LW, but I'm not trying to shoot bugholes with this thing. Anyway, more to follow as this project goes forward.

 

[K_4c]

I'm looking forward to your review... I opted for a G20 running the known underwood hard cast loads.

keep us updated bud and congrats on the newly acquired land!

 

[BullzeyeNJ]

Sound like an interesting project. Can't wait for the review.

 

[pappy42]

I have no experience with the LW full conversion; but I am fully satisfied with LW barrels for several different Glock models

 

[ZLBubba]

I bought the Gen 4 Glock 21 about a year ago, not knowing the slide difference that Glock made between the Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 20 and 21 models. I was disappointed to find out that unless I could find a Gen 4 Glock 20 slide, I couldn't responsibly do a 10mm conversion. As I researched how I could get a little more bang on the 21 frame, I found the 460 Rowland sites and they're pretty compelling. For a Glock frame, though, it seems like you need to tame the recoil as much as you can to ensure the frame will stand up to the abuse. In that vane, and to get more overall velocity and less recoil, I went with Lonewolf's 21L solid top frame and the 6.6" barrel with their proprietary compensator. The added weight of the frame and barrel, plus the compensator and heavier recoil spring, should dampen the pounding to the frame. Besides, I can load up some of my stiff 45 ACP loads for practice so that's a plus.

I'm really looking forward to this project. I love my Glock 21, and provided this 460 functions reliably, I'll have a great back woods pistol for years to come. The upper should show up on Monday, and pics will shortly follow.

 

[ZLBubba]

My 460 Rowland Lonewolf upper came today... and I love it. I went with the G21 solid long slide to add some heft and eat up some of the recoil. The barrel is 6.6", not including the LW compensator. I really like the two tone look of this piece.

I'm waiting on the Underwood 255gr hardcast solids to show up, but they're beasty: MV @ 1300 fps (out of a 5" barrel), with 937 ft/lbs of energy. I've also got 1000 brand new 460 Rowland Starline cases headed my way so that should hold me for a while. I was going to head to the range Thursday to test this beast out, but the snow's probably going to make that impossible. Maybe next week.

By the way, if anyone's got a line on some Longshot, Power Pistol, or AA #7, please PM me. All I have right now is Unique and W231, and neither are optimal for the 460 Rowland.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

I've run 460 Rowland through my G21c, using Starline 45 Super brass and a 24lb recoil spring. I could get 185s to 1500fps with Long shot, but the 230s were limited to 1200, or else I'd get SUBSTANTIAL Glock smiles. Frankly, the recoil was quite manageable. It produced a heavy thump but it wasn't terribly abrupt. I'd need a more fully supported barrel to push it harder.

I was shooting these at a plate rack at 55ft. I've never ever seen something hit them that hard. I was asked to please stop, not long after starting.

Nice pistol, looks fun.

 

[K_4c]

That thing is a beast! I love it.... keep us updated.

 

[wirehand]

Very nice,
Pretty much the top of the game for Glock conversions.
I am very interested in how this plays out for you.
After reading a little about the .40 super stuff, I had to aquire a 21sf and get that started.
Like you, a 6in. barrel and solid top 21T slide is on the way.

Man, I can't wait

 

[ZLBubba]

I've run 460 Rowland through my G21c, using Starline 45 Super brass and a 24lb recoil spring. I could get 185s to 1500fps with Long shot, but the 230s were limited to 1200, or else I'd get SUBSTANTIAL Glock smiles. Frankly, the recoil was quite manageable. It produced a heavy thump but it wasn't terribly abrupt. I'd need a more fully supported barrel to push it harder.

I was shooting these at a plate rack at 55ft. I've never ever seen something hit them that hard. I was asked to please stop, not long after starting.

Nice pistol, looks fun.

Yeah man, I'm with you 100% on the supported barrel. What's tricky about the 460 Rowland is that it requires very circumspect reloading as you go for max velocities. The pressure ramps up so quickly with just a few tenths of a grain that I would want every bit of case support, just in case there was any variance in the load. I'm so careful about this round that I'll probably meter all my loads through my Chargemaster and be sure the weights are all within .1 grain. I love my Dillon 550B but I don't trust it to throw the powder that perfectly. If I'm dealing with variance of 5.1-5.3gr of W231 for my 45ACP loads, that's one thing. I don't want to roll the dice with 13 gr of Longshot.

Very nice,
Pretty much the top of the game for Glock conversions.
I am very interested in how this plays out for you.
After reading a little about the .40 super stuff, I had to aquire a 21sf and get that started.
Like you, a 6in. barrel and solid top 21T slide is on the way.

Man, I can't wait

Definitely post how that build works for you. I'm interested in these types of projects.

K4_C, I'll keep the updates/reviews rolling in, especially once it warms up a bit. I still need to find some good powder for this pistol. I'm keeping gunbot.net on constant refresh so I'll hopefully have that problem solved soon.

 

[JWHITE]

Where were you able to pick up the brass? Very nice btw! Also would be interested in how it feels with and without the comp, if you try it without!

 

[ZLBubba]

I found the brass on Gunbroker, and just barely picked up some Longshot yesterday from Butch's. I'm loading up Hornady 200gr XTPs this week once the components get it. I've seen people get the 200gr somewhere between 1375 and 1450fps. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

I'm honestly not going to do much shooting without the compensator. I don't have much reason to do so, especially putting more wear and tear on the frame. However, if I get a crazy streak, I may try it.

 

[300WSM]

good vid

Glock 21 460 Rowland Ammo Test: Accuracy, Velocity, Recoil - YouTube

 

[WTW]

This is a sweet setup. I have an XD 45 I have thought about trying to convert but have not been able to find a lot of options. The Glock might just be the way to go.

 

[ZLBubba]

Thanks for the video, 300WSM. I saw it a few weeks before I ordered my conversion and once I saw it, finally made the decision to take the plunge. I honestly can't wait to get to the range. My Underwood ammo showed up yesterday and hopefully my reloading components will make it here by mid-next week. More to follow...

 

[ZLBubba]

//Disclaimer: work up your own loads for the 460 Rowland. The pressure spikes really quickly toward the end and could cause injury. I only use my Chargemaster to dispense powder so that I know exactly how much charge is going into each piece of brass.//

Alright, so here's my initial range report: WOW!

I shot four different loads yesterday.

1. Rainier 200gr Lead HPs over 6.4gr of W231 loaded in 45 ACP brass. With the added weight of the slide, barrel, and the compensator, these rounds were truly bunny farts, though they were probably around 1025-1050 fps. All except one loaded and extracted just fine.

2. Hornady XTP over 14.4gr of AA#7, virgin 460 Rowland brass. 1370-ish fps. Recoil was fine, accuracy was excellent.

3. Hornady XPT over 15.1gr of AA#7, virgin 460 Rowland brass. 1420-ish fps. Recoil getting stiffer, accuracy dropped a bit, but still good.

4. Hornady XTP over XXX (I'm not disclosing what my high end load is...) of AA#7. 1460-ish fps. Recoil is on the border of manageability. Accuracy dropped off, but some could be attributed to shooter flinch. (Yup, I'm a pussy.)

5. Underwood 255gr Hard Cast Round Nose at 1300fps. Good god, this was painful to shoot even compensated. For the Glock 21, the mag must be fully, firmly, definitively seated. The jarring will drop the mag if it is not seated properly. Great bear load, not fun to shoot at all.

All in all, the LW conversion is very accurate and good at taming all but the stiffest loads. However, a longer break-in period is required as about 15-20% of shots failed to return the slide to battery. I think this is just a matter of getting the slide and frame to mate up better as it took only a slight touch by my thumb to push the slide into battery. It's key to remember that the full slide, barrel, and recoil spring are all LW aftermarket parts and were shot for the first time on my Glock Gen 4 slide yesterday. The fit is solid but not perfect.

I plan on using Load #3 for my standard hunting loads since the accuracy was good and the recoil was still manageable. Will load up 50 or so and shoot them the next time I'm at the range and report whether the incidents of failure to return to battery lessen. My guess is yes, but we'll see. Overall, it's been a fun project so far.



T

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

185, 200 or 230 XTP?

 

[ZLBubba]

200gr XTP, minding the pressures listed by Quickload. I will say that the Underwood Ammo was definitely the highest pressure of all the loads though. Brutal is the only way I can describe putting a mag of Underwood 255 though my pistol.

 

[ZLBubba]

So I loaded up around 30 rounds of 200gr XTPs over 15.3gr of AA #7 for the 460 Rowland. That should put me at 1440 fps of MV and 900 ft/lbs of ME. I want to use this round as my standard mountain load when I'm out working on my land. It should be able to double as a nice short range white tail load as well. I'll take it to the range this Monday. I really want to get more rounds through the Lonewolf upper as it's still pretty tight and doesn't feed 100% of the time yet. I think it will smooth out with a few more rounds, so I'm taking some hot 45 ACP reloads as well as these 460s that I loaded up. More to follow

 

[powdahound76]

ZL, following this as I have been interested in a Glock .460 build for a while. Probably end up doing my first conversion on a 1911 I already have, simply because of the $ to invest into a whole new Glock and then the aftermarket partS at this point, but the end goal is this. Like you, i love the idea of 13 rds of stopping power all at once, no reload required.
Thanks for posting this and looking forward to some pictures of terminal performance if you ever bust a bear or hog with this.

 

[ZLBubba]

ZL, following this as I have been interested in a Glock .460 build for a while. Probably end up doing my first conversion on a 1911 I already have, simply because of the $ to invest into a whole new Glock and then the aftermarket partS at this point, but the end goal is this. Like you, i love the idea of 13 rds of stopping power all at once, no reload required.
Thanks for posting this and looking forward to some pictures of terminal performance if you ever bust a bear or hog with this.

I know there's probably only a handful of us on the Hide really interested in this capability, but I wanted to document the information as best as I can since I could find so little out on the internet. The majority of writing done on the 460 Rowland is by people trying to sell it, and obviously that creates a conflict of interest. I want to both have this kind of firepower in a durable platform, as well as document the pros and cons throughout the process so that people can make an educated decision about going with the 460.

Now, I completely under your desire to go 1911 with a 460. In fact, side by side, a steel-framed 1911 should hold up better under the pounding than a Glock frame, if of course you're going to subject them both to thousands and thousands of rounds. Since I'm only going to use this for hunting/back country purposes, it's not my goal to see how many rounds I can put through the Glock 21 frame before it breaks. The 1911 route is a proven platform for the 460, so you shouldn't have any problems finding information on the conversion. Most people go with Clark Customs for their barrel, compensator, and recoil spring.

One thing I will say is get the compensated barrel. When you start pushing the stout loads out of that pistol, you definitely want to take the edge off as much as you can. Shooting my pistol would be pretty unpleasant without the LW compensator, especially since the Glock frame is so light. Hit me with a PM if you have any questions. If you make it to the DC, northern Virginia area let me know and you're welcome to shoot this beast with me.

 

[steve123]

ZL, did you get the reliability issues sorted out?

 

[powdahound76]

Thanks for the invite, slim chances of that trip taking place, but I have said that before... For me, the Glock would get a lot of workout in standard configuration as a .45 and get the .460 slide/barrel setup to head into the woods. Perfect for hunting and a backup to the 12g on AK fishing trips.
Hope your weather stays decent so you can get out and break her in.

The other reason for the 1911 is the pistol i would use belonged to a very close friend who passed away suddenly just a year ago. Be nice to have him by my side on my adventures.

 

[ZLBubba]

ZL, did you get the reliability issues sorted out?

I've still only had one range trip with it, and I think once I get a couple hundred rounds through the upper, the slide and frame will be mated properly. This is the problem though with not having a single source (outside of Clark Customs) to get a pistol built from the ground up to handle the 460. I've never had a single failure with my Glock 21 slide and 45ACP. I just have a feeling that the tolerances that LW is machining their slides to is much tighter than factory Glock frames are used to.

What's funny is that the slide *almost* fully cycles. There only remains about 2mm of room left for the slide to go into full battery, which is why I think I may just need to do a little polishing with the felt tip on my dremel to smooth things out.

 

[steve123]

I'm surprised that 24lb recoil spring won't push it home all the time???

Maybe a slightly shorter OACL would help.

Are you using a roll crimp or a taper crimp?

 

[ZLBubba]

Yeah, I couldn't believe that recoil spring was doing it perfectly either. The gun cycles perfectly until the last little bit before going into battery. I think it's an issue that the spring is hardly compressed anymore, and that the internals are creating enough friction to make it not quite go into battery. I've used some of Mother's polishing compound today on all the parts creating friction and hand cycled it about 300 times. I cleaned it thoroughly, re-oiled it, and now it's much smoother and isn't hanging up on the last couple millimeters. I'll be able to shoot it on Monday so hopefully no problems.

I'm using a taper crimp right now, and crimping fairly heavily. If I still have issues, I'll short the OAL and see how it works. Thanks for the help.

 

[powdahound76]

Same idea, the .460 will be for carry in the woods only for defense against those that might want to eat me. I am 5'7" and 145 so a steady diet of anything like the .460 might really work me over. Maybe to shoot a hog if one gets into range! Would love to shape and stipple a frame as the 21s I have shot and held are a little tough to hold onto.
Keep is up to date on how it is going getting it to function more reliably.

 

[LegioX]

Hola ZL. Nice project you have rollin here, thanks for all the info!
I have a little info that may interest you. These bullets are the cats ass for hunting and self protection. They are constantly adding new weights to their lines and respond well to requests. They show a 150gr and 240gr in HP and a 300gr solid which is prolly to heavy for your needs. They have a unique design in which the bullet is banded rather than grooved, meaning less pressure and higher velocity.
I've used them in both rifle and pistol, they are uber nasty but a touch expensive. The link follows, good luck with your load testing!

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=A451

 

[ZLBubba]

Alright, apologies for the long delay in updating this thread. I sent the slide back to Lonewolf and indeed, they'd sent my slide with a 17lb recoil spring instead of the 24lb spring. To make it right, they included both in case I wanted to switch out springs for running lighter loads and/or 45ACPs. The armorer there was a pleasure to work with. He worked with a few of the parts just to make sure it would run, then took a video of him shooting my rig. It ran like a top.

So I brought the pistol home, loaded it up with my 200gr XTP load and took it up the mountain to run some rounds through it. The good news is that it ran. The bad news is that the recoil was so heavy that my mags would inadvertently drop from the grip. Not awesome. Before you say that I may have been hitting the mag release myself, I put the 45ACP slide on and ran a magazine through it without a hiccup (or magazine dropping). So I ordered a heavier magazine release spring, added it to my Glock 21, and took the pistol back out to the range today.

Today at the range I lubed up the slide and ran a magazine of the 200gr XTP loads through it, and it worked like a charm. FINALLY!!! Now, my pistol didn't like the 250gr Underwood Ammo at all. It does not like to eat the round noses at all. Nonetheless, it's spitting the XTPs at just over 1500 fps so there's no room for complaints. I'm going to load up 50 more rounds of the XTPs and shoot it both fast and slow to make sure it's 100% reliable, but I'm pretty damn confident it will be.

460 Rowland lessons learned:
1. You must have the heavy recoil spring, 24lbs.
2. In a Glock, you may need to add an heavier mag release spring because the recoil is so stout. Very easy, and the spring costs $8.
3. Unlike factory Glocks that run fine dry, you'll want to run this pistol pretty damn lubed up, at least until you've shot a lot of rounds through it and the aftermarket slide is mated to your lower.
4. You'll probably have to experiment with multiple loads to find what runs best, and then stick with it. I'm ok with this because my pistol is my mountain gun and it serves a very specific purpose, which requires a specific load.

All in all, I'm happy with these outcomes and look forward to having this beast on my hip for years to come. The best part was that the LWD barrel/slide combo was putting the XTPs in the same hole today. Good day at the range.

 

[Unknown]

Sort of like that old joke:

Q:"Why do you carry a 45?"
A: "Because they don't make a 46."

You have obviously solved that problem.

A 200 grain 45 caliber bullet at 1500 feet per second is pretty darned impressive. Nice work.