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My gun hates lapua brass?

J

jmtyndall

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Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 12, 2010
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Washington
At this point I'm at my freaking wits end. I've worked up a load in Winchester brass for my Savage 308. With a 175gr SMK, Hodgdon Varget, I was shooting between 45.6gr-45.9gr as my accuracy node.

I was given a rather large amount of lapua .308 brass. So I decided to transfer my load over to the other brass. Lapua brass is thicker, and I had been told to reduce charges by 1gr in this brass, and work back up. To be a little on the save side, I dropped 44.5gr into the brass. Took it out to the range, and my bolt sticks. Alright...that's a little weird, because in Winchester brass, I worked up to 46.5gr without pressure signs. Decided, okay, I was too conservative on the reduction. Decided, if 46.5gr was my max safe load in Winchester brass, surely 3.0gr reduced will be a nice safe level in Lapua brass. Took em out today. Wouldn't you know...nice sticky bolt, flat primers, and the faintest little ejector ring.

So what the heck? Surely below 43.5gr I'm not going to be pushing a SMK fast enough to reach 1000. I'm wondering if it's possible the powder got contaminated. I don't see how. I'm anal about labeling everything. The powder jug for what's in the hopper sits next to the hopper every time I load. Charge weights are cross checked on a digital scale.

Basically where I'm at now, there's two variables. Either it's possible the powder is...contaminated, which I'm really doubting, or my rifle hates the lapua brass. Here's my conundrum, I was going to fire my 45.6gr/Winchester brass load, just to see if maybe it's the RIFLE and not the ammo. But if the powder's got an issue, that..may not be safe. Rather than pull everything I've got, I had a thought that maybe if I open a brand new bottle of varget, load some lapua cases at 42.0gr(starting load) and load this current bottle of varget also at 42.0gr(a further 1.5gr reduction from the 43.5 that was sticky today), and chrono'd em back to back, if the velocity was significantly different, I'd know something is wacky with my powder, pull what I have and toss the powder.

Am I way off base here? Has anyone else had similar issues with getting pressure signs below 44gr of varget in a lapua casing?

Edited to add:
The only stick powder I have in my house, other than Varget, is H4895. I worked up to a max load of well over 43.0gr of that in Win brass as well. I also tried to look to see if maybe one powder is cut longer than the other...they look like the same damn powder in a different bottle haha.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

So, have you recently fired win brass using the same powder that you used in the lapua brass? Is so, was that fine because if the win brass is fine, powder contamination is not the issue.

Were these virgin lapua cases, or once fired?
If they were once fired, were they previously sized by someone elses dies and you just loaded them up?

Are you neck sizing or FL sizing?
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Unless something happened between my last two loading sessions, the same bottle of powder was used to finalize the 45.6gr load in Winchester brass. The H4895 hasn't hit the bench in over 2 months that I can recall. And my notebook doesn't mention using it at all. In fact, I've been trying to figure out what to use it for. I don't think powder contamination is really a possibility, but I don't want to rule anything out.

Fired Lapua cases, fired in another rifle, but resized in my die, to my shoulder length. A resized case slides in and out of the chamber just like any other piece of brass. Full length sizing with a .002-.003" shoulder bump.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I was using 45gns varget in lapua cases and it was a rather stiff load for that brass.

I'm just guessing where your at should be safe....



....What kind of scale are you using?!?!?! Perhaps its gone to pud and your charges are off?!?!
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

RCBS 505 Beam. First round is crosschecked on a digital.
Here's the best pic I could get of the brass.
IMAG0186.jpg


Hard to see, but the primers have a little cratering(wouldn't say it's too abnormal considering most Savages I've seen, do it). They are a bit flattened on the edges, but again, doesn't seem like anything too wild. The second case down, in the first column, shows a slight ejector mark in about the 10 o'clock position. The other that shows an ejector mark is the bottom case in the second column. Located about 2 o'clock, pretty much encircling the L in Lapua.

Edited to add, these are Federal 210 primers. My OAL to the Ogive is 2.203" Well out of the lands.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Hmmmm if you didnt tell me the bolt was sticking I would say those primers look normal.

I could only suggest trying to load at book minimum and give that a shot. If things change, then I would say you have some sort of pressure issue but Im not sure why.

I have a friend with an HS Precision rifle... consistently gives him flat primers and i mean FLAT... they look like they are part of the brass thats how flat they get. And he assures me he has gone down to minimum charge weights as well. He is on his 3rd ejector now as its constantly breaking.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

My .308 (175 smk's) load with Lapua brass is 43.7gr Varget.
If I were you I would start at 42 grains and work up a new load.
Have you chronied it? I bet you'll still be supersonic to 1000 at 42.5+ grains. Bet you're still getting 2600+ fps.
The same thing happened to me when I switched from fire Black Hills brass (Winchester) to Lapua brass.
Try to forget about your Winchester brass load, don't let it mess with your mind...just work up a new load with the Lapua brass.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I've had the same problem with Lapua brass in my LTR.
My rifle just doesn't seem to like it, tried all sorts of things to make the Lapua not stick, just could never get it to work.
I never thought I had a powder problem, or an overcharge or anything like that, cause I was nowhere near max in any book for the powder I was using. I was just starting to work up a new load with the new brass and I never got that far. Lapua brass just always gave me a "sticky bolt" in my Remington.
It was very frustrating. I've got about 200 new pieces of Lapua brass sitting in the garage ever since. Went to Winchester brass and haven't looked back.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

45.0 grains is the max load according to Hodgdon, and that is compressed as it is. I run 44.0 in mine and have no issues. 46.5 grains will be super hot and is getting into the realm of what 155 scenars like.

Josh
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Measure the base of the case and compare it to winchester,lapua is usualy bigger in the base.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

44.7 Varget with 175 SMK in my 308 chambered by GAP.
No pressure signs at all. I bump the brass with a Forster bump die until bolt lift gets stiff. Then I FL size.
Stiff bolt lift is not always a sign of pressure.
You say the Lapua brass was fired in another rifle before you got it. There is some dimension off, most likely at the case head. My Redding FL size die will not size brass down as much at the case head as my older RCBS or my Redding small base body die. This is the area where my stiff bolt lift comes from.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've worked up a load in Winchester brass for my Savage 308. With a 175gr SMK, Hodgdon Varget, I was shooting between 45.6gr-45.9gr as my accuracy node.

I was given a rather large amount of lapua .308 brass.</div></div>

Fired or unfired?
Did you size the brass? In what way?
Did you MEASURE the sized brass?

Lapua brass generally likes to run 0.4-0.5gr less than Win brass.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dropped 44.5gr into the brass. Took it out to the range, and my bolt sticks.</div></div>

Is the chamber and throat clean?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Decided, if 46.5gr was my max safe load in Winchester brass, surely 3.0gr reduced will be a nice safe level in Lapua brass. Took em out today. Wouldn't you know...nice sticky bolt, flat primers, and the faintest little ejector ring. </div></div>

Probably something other than the brass is at play. Did you shoot any of your (potentially older) win brass that day? If so, how'd it do?
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I'll try and hit everyone's posts here:
VMAN: That's what I thought. I loaded up another attempt. 42.0gr-43.5gr(+.3gr). If these stick, then I...well I'm just lost haha.

Lucks: Sometimes this kind of info can be the most helpful. The person who's taken me under his wing with long range shooting is convinced either I'm doing something wrong, or my rifles some factory freak POS. The fact that you had a max below 44gr is encouraging that I'm not doing something wrong. I haven't chrono'd it. Weather's been too rainy to get a chrono out there.

Flagg: That's an option too. I hope not, cause i got 500 pieces staring at me waiting to be loaded.

Wolfman1: That was my first thought. But now all cases are trimmed to 2.005".

Minor Damage: I know Hodgdons listed loads. I worked up from 42.0gr up to 46.5gr SAFELY. No primer signs. No heavy bolt lift. Velocity at 46.5gr was 2775fps. Faster than I wanted to push 175's anyways. Accuracy was found almost a grain lower, at 45.6gr. Interestingly enough, that load is not an issue. Issues popped up when I switched brass.

Wyobill: With a dial caliper or a micrometer? I only have a dial caliper, so depending on how much different we're talking, I may not be able to pick it up.

Shoot4fun: That thought crossed my mind. I was thinking maybe a FL size was in order, just to be sure. The person who gave me the brass(the mentor guy) had said, "sure that's an option, but why isn't it sticking when you chamber and extract it when it HASN'T been fired?" And he has a point. If a dimension is different, shouldn't the case hang up with a dummy round trying to be ejected too?

MitchAlsup: Fired brass. Was sized using an RCBS comp sizing die. I took a piece of my fired brass, measured length to the datum, and sized these cases to that measurement. The datum to casehead length on the lapua brass and on the Winchester brass is the same. .4-.5gr is what I was originally told. I reduced by more than that as a safety margin. And still having issues. Chamber and throat and bore were cleaned before hitting the range this last time.

I also didn't shoot my winchester brass that day. The person I was with said, if the powder's contaminated, then I had a good chance of blowing my action apart. The mental image made me pause before loading up those other cases and shooting them.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Have you checked the water capacity of your cases? Take a fired Winchester case and Lapua case and weigh them...fill with water to a level on the case mouth and reweigh. That will tell you if you have a significant capacity difference between brands. Winchester brass usually is a little more capacious and a little harder. Those two together may make the difference in expansion in the web area enough to cause the reluctant extraction.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Are you absolutely sure you're not over-sizing them? If you're over headspacing the brass for your chamber, you'll get those pressure spikes like you're seeing. I did that to myself once and the culprit was a bit too MUCH headspace and I was getting flat primers, ejector marks, sticky colts and eventually case head splits.

Try the paperclip trick to see if you're getting any impending case head issues down in the brass.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Have you FL resized without worrying how much you are bumping the shoulder back? Depending on the die if you set it to bump the shoulder back just a touch it may not be sizing the entire body of the case. Perhaps there is a 308 FL body die and you could use another die to push the shoulder back a touch.

Like Notso said I have had problems with too much oversizing as well. I didn't need a paperclip as I could see a shiny ring at the case head. Imminent case head seperation.

I'd bet they need more resizing. Just guessing.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I'm going to try two things. Firstly, I'm going to load 5 at 42.0gr with them sized how they are. Secondly, I'm going to size 5 all the way to the shellplate, load them at 42.0gr and shoot them. If the first set sticks, and the second one doesn't. That's my problem. If they both stick...I'll buy a damn remington haha
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

5000 pc Lapua brass once fired is worth more than your rifle:)
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Have you tried cleaning the recesses where the locking lugs sit and applying a fressh coat of light lube (i use a dab of moly grease) to the locking lugs? Perhaps there's a little grit in there. The pics of the cases dont look bad to me.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Yea I tried that too.

Just an update here, if I can catch a break in the weather I'm going to try and hit the range again. I'm going to take out 5 rounds loaded at 42.0gr, and 5 rounds resized again, with a little cam in the press. Hopefully nothing sticks. If not, I'll work up from there and see what I get. Hopefully I'll be able to take out a chrono and see where I am. I would expect about 2550fps at 42.0gr.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Did you trim it?

All you folks with Lapua 308 problems, PM me for my adress to facilitate disposal of your defective brass.....
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I can only be of limited assistance since I have not used Lapua Brass... This I do know, Winchester brass has A LOT of case capacity compared to other brands. When I worked up a load for my brother using Nosler brass (RE-15 powder --- everything the same except for brass ) it took way less powder to get similar results without over pressure. Just for kicks I put the ammount of powder in the Nosler case that I used for my Winchester Brass load and it filled the case into the neck... The same load in my winchester brass was not even compressed with 190's.

Before I got too worked up about how many grains less I could fit into a case, I'd start low and work up a safe and accurate load and check the velocity over a chronograph. The accurate load in my brothers rifle was as accurate as my load and was only slightly slower.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea I tried that too.

Just an update here, if I can catch a break in the weather I'm going to try and hit the range again. I'm going to take out 5 rounds loaded at 42.0gr, and 5 rounds resized again, with a little cam in the press. Hopefully nothing sticks. If not, I'll work up from there and see what I get. Hopefully I'll be able to take out a chrono and see where I am. I would expect about 2550fps at 42.0gr. </div></div>
Now I'm confused.... are you having issues with the shells chambering BEFORE being fired or sticky bolt lift AFTER being fired? Because if the shell is chambering fine with the way you have them sized and then it sticks after being fired - then resizing them to the shellplate is not going to change anything. It might actually make it worse because you will most likely be over-bumping the shoulder too far. I don't care how far you size the case, its going to conform to your chamber as soon as its fired. That's why they call it "fire-forming".

I get the impression you're misunderstanding the principles in play here....
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Notso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now I'm confused.... are you having issues with the shells chambering BEFORE being fired or sticky bolt lift AFTER being fired? Because if the shell is chambering fine with the way you have them sized and then it sticks after being fired - then resizing them to the shellplate is not going to change anything. It might actually make it worse because you will most likely be over-bumping the shoulder too far. I don't care how far you size the case, its going to conform to your chamber as soon as its fired. That's why they call it "fire-forming".

I get the impression you're misunderstanding the principles in play here.... </div></div>

Sticky bolt lift after firing. I didn't think sizing was the issue but it's being brought up several times. Setting the die all the way down till it touches the shellholder produces .004"-.005" setback from fired brass. Previously I was setting back .002" to .003" from fired.

I REALLY doubt I'm oversizing the brass enough to produce headspace issues. Considering with the die set all the way down I get the same measurement to the datum as I do with factory GMM. Which does not stick in my chamber.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Notso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now I'm confused.... are you having issues with the shells chambering BEFORE being fired or sticky bolt lift AFTER being fired? Because if the shell is chambering fine with the way you have them sized and then it sticks after being fired - then resizing them to the shellplate is not going to change anything. It might actually make it worse because you will most likely be over-bumping the shoulder too far. I don't care how far you size the case, its going to conform to your chamber as soon as its fired. That's why they call it "fire-forming".

I get the impression you're misunderstanding the principles in play here.... </div></div>

Sticky bolt lift after firing. I didn't think sizing was the issue but it's being brought up several times. Setting the die all the way down till it touches the shellholder produces .004"-.005" setback from fired brass. Previously I was setting back .002" to .003" from fired.

I REALLY doubt I'm oversizing the brass enough to produce headspace issues. Considering with the die set all the way down I get the same measurement to the datum as I do with factory GMM. Which does not stick in my chamber. </div></div>

You're missing the point though, sizing the brass MORE will not solve you post shot sticking issues. Sizing it MORE will only make things worse, not better. You should only ever size the brass enough so that it easily chambers. What size the brass goes in the chamber has zero to do with what size it comes out. THE CHAMBER determines that.

And comparing FGMM to Lapua is apples and oranges.

I dunno, maybe you just have a bad die that doesn't work with your chamber.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Oversizing will not do anything besides add extra work on the brass. If you can set your die so its bumping back shoulder 0.001 to 0.002 then thats what you want.

Win brass has more internal volume than Lapua brass and the metals themselves may be different between the two. Even tho they are both brass the properties may be slightly different... but without a doubt the lapua has THICKER brass with less internal volume.

If you run into this problem with a new lot of powder at a starting charge, I would stick with what works which in your case sounds Winchester brass.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I get that there's a volume difference. Hence reducing the charge. Anyways, I've got 5 rounds loaded with the current lot of powder at 42.0gr, and 5 rounds with a brand new lot of powder at 42.0gr. Gonna chrono and see if I get weird numbers, or sticky bolt lift or what.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Your fired Lapua cases do not look like you have a pressure problem,to me.I don't see any significant flatning of the primer or a serious ejector mark.Like someone else said,check the two different cases water capacity to see if there is a larger than normal difference.A chronograph will show if your velosity is where it should be.Also,check your neck wall thickness by dropping a bullet into a fired case.In a factory chamber,the bullet should easily slide into the case.Let us know what you find. Pete
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I'm with Pete T on this. The pics don't look bad.

I see lots of factory loads that leave that "much" (faint) ejector wipe.

Too many posts here where people didn't read the OP or his follow-ups. However, there remains one unanswered question, unless I also missed something written above: OAL of the cases. I don't see evidence of chamber "pinch" on the bullet jacking chamber pressures (I first saw that when I was 14), but I am wondering about some level of case mouth "jamming".

The other unexplored variable is possible surface gook of some sort that's un-noticed when handling, but acts like glue at 55 KPSI or so. I don't know what it does on firing, but Hornady One Shot lube sorta dries out to a hard film that I wouldn't trust in a chamber...?

So, my quick and dirty suggestion is to clean the Lapua cases with acetone or brake cleaner or some other nasty solvent that leaves little or no residue.

It's really hard to evaluate without a velocity, but the radius on those primers makes me believe that high pressure is NOT the problem.

But clean and re-grease your primary extraction camming surfaces before the next outing, even through you already tried it--just to make sure. I wasn't there, so don't cuss me for asking you to make sure you get EVERY contact surface that needs lube.

The stiff bolt lift is a deal-breaker even if pressures are safe and velocities are normal. Springiness of the brass is the only other thing I can think of...so maybe annealing the necks to the entire shoulder...?
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Two things come to my mind.

First, Excessive headspace can imitate pressure signs and can cause ejector marks on the brass. If you're oversizing your brass this might be part of the cause. Although .004-.005" of headspace doesn't sound that excessive.

Second, on your lapua brass, measure the base at the webbing or just ahead of it with your calipers and compare that measurement to the winchester brass.. If the lapua cases were fired in a different rifle first and that rifle had a base diameter that is larger than the base dimension of your current chamber, or really close to it, it may not have enough room to spring back after firing and that's why you're getting your sticky bolt.

If the winchester brass case head is smaller in measurement that the lapua, I'd bet that might be part of the problem. The other part of the problem might be your full length sizing die.

Don't take it for granted that your full length sizer is sizing the base of your brass as much as you think. I recently had a forster fl sizing die that was slightly over spec and wasn't sizing the base of the case as much as it should have been. Results were brass that would feed fine, but after firing, the brass didn't spring back enough and would cause a slightly sticky bolt even with a known safe pressure load.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

No results as of yet, but today's looking clear. High humidity, and cold, but no rain. So I may try to get out anyways, but I won't be with the chrono.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm with Pete T on this. The pics don't look bad.

I see lots of factory loads that leave that "much" (faint) ejector wipe.

Too many posts here where people didn't read the OP or his follow-ups. However, there remains one unanswered question, unless I also missed something written above: OAL of the cases. I don't see evidence of chamber "pinch" on the bullet jacking chamber pressures (I first saw that when I was 14), but I am wondering about some level of case mouth "jamming".

The other unexplored variable is possible surface gook of some sort that's un-noticed when handling, but acts like glue at 55 KPSI or so. I don't know what it does on firing, but Hornady One Shot lube sorta dries out to a hard film that I wouldn't trust in a chamber...?

So, my quick and dirty suggestion is to clean the Lapua cases with acetone or brake cleaner or some other nasty solvent that leaves little or no residue.

It's really hard to evaluate without a velocity, but the radius on those primers makes me believe that high pressure is NOT the problem.

But clean and re-grease your primary extraction camming surfaces before the next outing, even through you already tried it--just to make sure. I wasn't there, so don't cuss me for asking you to make sure you get EVERY contact surface that needs lube.

The stiff bolt lift is a deal-breaker even if pressures are safe and velocities are normal. Springiness of the brass is the only other thing I can think of...so maybe annealing the necks to the entire shoulder...? </div></div>

Length of the brass, is 2.005", my chamber measures 2.040", so I think that should be fine. As for gunk left behind, I'm tumbling after sizing, but maybe it wasn't long enough. I'll also give them a wipe-down to make sure there's nothing left.

I'm about to make myself sound like a tard...but I don't know where exactly my primary extraction cam is. I lubed all my normal points on the bolt, but I'll have to try and google what that looks like.

Annealing may help, but I don't have a method of doing it, so that may be out as well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two things come to my mind.

First, Excessive headspace can imitate pressure signs and can cause ejector marks on the brass. If you're oversizing your brass this might be part of the cause. Although .004-.005" of headspace doesn't sound that excessive.

Second, on your lapua brass, measure the base at the webbing or just ahead of it with your calipers and compare that measurement to the winchester brass.. If the lapua cases were fired in a different rifle first and that rifle had a base diameter that is larger than the base dimension of your current chamber, or really close to it, it may not have enough room to spring back after firing and that's why you're getting your sticky bolt.

If the winchester brass case head is smaller in measurement that the lapua, I'd bet that might be part of the problem. The other part of the problem might be your full length sizing die.

Don't take it for granted that your full length sizer is sizing the base of your brass as much as you think. I recently had a forster fl sizing die that was slightly over spec and wasn't sizing the base of the case as much as it should have been. Results were brass that would feed fine, but after firing, the brass didn't spring back enough and would cause a slightly sticky bolt even with a known safe pressure load.
</div></div>

I took a measurement, and, as far as dial calipers can tell, they are the same to within .001". I'm wondering if since the brass was fired in a different rifle, and the die wasn't QUITE all the way down when we sized(just bumping the shoulder), if there might be a small portion of the case that is maybe .0005" bigger than usual. More data a little later if I get out to shoot today.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Hit the range today. Didn't need a chrono after all. 42.0gr of varget behind a 175 gave me a sticky bolt in all lapua brass. New lot of powder, old lot of powder, and some FL sized rounds. So...I'm at a loss.

I bought some American Eagle 168gr M1A loads to make sure factory ammo didn't stick. It didn't. Shot 44.0gr in Winchester brass. Didn't stick. Shot my 155gr load. Didn't stick. That would seem to indicate a brass issue of some sort.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Assuming don't give up on the Lapua brass, try bumping them only .001 back. Reload a couple rounds and see if you still have a sticky bolt.

Here's my assumption: whoever sold you the Lapua was not 100% honest. Lapua brass is thicker than Winchester and most other brass. What that also means is that they have less "spring" to them by the 2nd or 3rd firing.

Thus when you bumping Winchester brass by .003, you bump it down .003 but due to spring back of (e.g.) .001, you really bumped it .002.

With Lapua, you bumped it .003 just like you did with the Winchester brass, except this time since its brittle and has no spring back, you actually bumped it .003 a.k.a. you oversized it.

Bump it .001 only or not at all. Think about annealing down the road. Good luck and post the results.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Just a thought, before I implicate the seller of the Lapua brass:

Its also possible that the other rifle had a match or tight chamber and your Savage has a larger chamber. You said it yourself that the Lapua brass, when resized to your specs slides in and out easily.

Have you considered that the seller already FL resized it prior to the sale? Or if in fact that other rifle has a tighter chamber, see if unsized brass will fit your chamber, and if so, load up a few rounds without any sizing.

If you got excited and resized all the Lapua brass at once, try neck sizing only the Lapua that was previously fired in your rifle. This way you know for fact your working with brass that is fire-formed to your chamber. Load a few rounds this way and post the result.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigMahi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assuming don't give up on the Lapua brass, try bumping them only .001 back. Reload a couple rounds and see if you still have a sticky bolt.

Here's my assumption: whoever sold you the Lapua was not 100% honest. Lapua brass is thicker than Winchester and most other brass. What that also means is that they have less "spring" to them by the 2nd or 3rd firing.

Thus when you bumping Winchester brass by .003, you bump it down .003 but due to spring back of (e.g.) .001, you really bumped it .002.

With Lapua, you bumped it .003 just like you did with the Winchester brass, except this time since its brittle and has no spring back, you actually bumped it .003 a.k.a. you oversized it.

Bump it .001 only or not at all. Think about annealing down the road. Good luck and post the results.
</div></div>
I'll start with the bump. I leave my lock ring loose on my die, so it gets reset whenever I use it. I used a comparator to make sure the lapua was just bumped a little, and not a lot. I guess I can try bumping the brass that I fired in my chamber one more time. Not sure it'll help, but I'll give it a try.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigMahi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a thought, before I implicate the seller of the Lapua brass:

Its also possible that the other rifle had a match or tight chamber and your Savage has a larger chamber. You said it yourself that the Lapua brass, when resized to your specs slides in and out easily.

Have you considered that the seller already FL resized it prior to the sale? Or if in fact that other rifle has a tighter chamber, see if unsized brass will fit your chamber, and if so, load up a few rounds without any sizing.

If you got excited and resized all the Lapua brass at once, try neck sizing only the Lapua that was previously fired in your rifle. This way you know for fact your working with brass that is fire-formed to your chamber. Load a few rounds this way and post the result. </div></div>

Part one. I didn't get the brass from a seller. I was given the brass by a person who was showing me the ropes. He moved on to a 260 and, trying to be nice, gave me the 308 brass.

He does have a tighter match chamber, and a lot of this is between 10 and 12 firings. Some of it's more, some is less. It's all been checked for case head separation, and it's fine. Unsized brass fits, but it's really tight fit, and, the necks won't hold a bullet. He didn't size it before giving it to me either.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Well you need to size it, theres no two ways about it.

If your really keen to try Lapua brass, see what happens with Virgin brass. If it all works well, then Im at a loss as to what is going on with your previously fired rounds.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

+ VMAN

Maybe get new lapua brass and we can stop speculating if its past owners variables,your rifle not liking the brass or its your prep of brass. Report back if your rifle truly not like lapua brass . Anyone would like to volunteer 5 new piece of new lapua brass so we can get to the bottom of this.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

The necks on my Lapua brass averages .002” thicker than the necks on my Winchester brass.
You might check your neck tension or neck size on your resized Lapua brass as it comes out of your resizing die to confirm you’re not undersizing the necks of your brass.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I don't...quite follow how that would cause sticking issues. I have a non-bushing die, so I'm not sure that would be an issue anyways.

I tried a super non-scientific annealing process at home. The cases were noticeably easier to size. I'm not really all that worried about getting lapua brass for my rifle. The only reason I tried it at all, is because it was given to me. If the annealing, and, using the brass fired from MY chamber doesn't help, then I'll...idk trade it for Winchester brass.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

Good idea...no point running circles just over Lap vs win brass.

The win brass is still good stuff if you have the tools to prep it.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't...quite follow how that would cause sticking issues. </div></div>

I’ve had an issue with tight necks and high pressure signs using the wrong bushing in my bushing die for the brand of brass I was loading and thought your problem sounded similar.
Your “sticking” issue could be caused from the higher pressure spike of a tight neck.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

When I saw the number of sizings, I thought...

ANNEAL!!!! ANNEAL!!!!

Though I plan to use the calibrated temperature of a lead pot method if I ever get brass to last long enough to need that (long story, I have enough brass so far BUT also inherited some Lapua--5-6x fired), you could try to propane torch and hold the middle of the case body until it's almost too hot to hold approach. Do NOT try to be manly with that. The oft-repeated dim room, just begin to glow dull red approach is too much and results in close to dead-soft brass. Yours is just plain overdue.

Thanks on the measurements. Good to know another thing unlikely to be a cause. Same on the wipe-down. I was searching for possibilities on that one.

Looks like some people still don't get that 1. you have fired brass; 2. you have FL sized it in your own die that works fine with Winnie brass; and 3. sized brass goes in your chamber just fine.

HOWEVER...I am suddenly reminded of a little mishap with a borrowed AR a while back. Though not quite the same, we had some ammo that was feeding and firing quite nicely--until we tried to clear a chamber.

Yup, sticky ammo.

So, besides the need for annealing, which I still believe might be a lower-probability or less-than-bad effect on extraction, may I ask if you have tried to extract a *loaded* but unfired round?

That locking closed camming action can squish things in tight. And if your necks are thick for your chamber, it would take a seated bullet to detect.

Oh, your primary extraction camming is on the FRONT of your locking lugs, the leading edge as the bolt rotates open. A well-designed rifle will have a bit of a "screw out" movement before you get fully unlocked and able to withdraw the bolt. Usually a spot of grease on the bolt is enough to get on the inside of the locking lug area of the receiver. Some rifles use the root of the bolt handle hitting a rounded area, but I'm a semiauto guy mostly and don't remember whose non-rimfire rifles do it there.

HTH.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I don't think that sticky bolt is a pressure problem. I've seen this "problem" many times. It's the sizing. Excessive pressure is not the only thing that will cause a sticky bolt. In fact, pressure has to be pretty high before the bolt starts sticking.

You mentioned sizing the brass with "some camming over." That is NOT the way to measure adjustments in the amount that you size. I'd suggest that you use a chamber gauge to size the brass to the minimum specs. As was suggested above, you should measure the bases of your Winchester brass and compare that to the measurements that you get from the bases of the Lapua. Odds are that the Lapua was just fired in a rifle that has a sloppier chamber than your rifle has.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I tried the candle method tonight, but I'm not satisfied it really annealed it. They felt a bit easier to size, but it might be my imagination. So I'm going to buy a torch head tomorrow and give it a good try.

Extracting a loaded round is easy as pie. I'll look into the extraction cams, make sure they are nice and lubed up.

I once had a problem with my ar, ammo worked fine, but had to mortar the sucker to get a loaded round out of the chamber. Wasn't until after I got a comparator that I found out...I hadn't reset my die when I got a new press. I was setting the shoulder FORWARD .003". Just enough for the bolt to close, then put enough pressure on the lugs to keep the bolt from rotating out of battery.
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think that sticky bolt is a pressure problem. I've seen this "problem" many times. It's the sizing. Excessive pressure is not the only thing that will cause a sticky bolt. In fact, pressure has to be pretty high before the bolt starts sticking.

You mentioned sizing the brass with "some camming over." That is NOT the way to measure adjustments in the amount that you size. I'd suggest that you use a chamber gauge to size the brass to the minimum specs. As was suggested above, you should measure the bases of your Winchester brass and compare that to the measurements that you get from the bases of the Lapua. Odds are that the Lapua was just fired in a rifle that has a sloppier chamber than your rifle has. </div></div>

I know you're trying to help, but did you read the further posts? I did measure the base. The brass was fired in a tighter chamber than mine. The brass that stuck was bumped .003" or LESS! The bolt has just a little squish when I chamber a round. I'M NOT OVERSIZING IT. I know that can be a cause of sticky bolt. I'm quite confident that it is NOT the case this time.

At 42.0gr, FL sized and cammed brass stuck. Brass bumped .002" stuck. New lot of powder at 42.0gr stuck. Every dimension I can measure is the same between winchester and lapua are the same. Lapua sticks. Winchester works great. My only thought. Winchester is 2x fired. Lapua is...many times fired. It's a longshot, but PERHAPS the brass isn't springy enough to contract from the chamber walls after firing. In which case, it would expand to fit my chamber, then not spring back, and hug the chamber walls. This actually makes sense because, looking back, the bolt lift is fine until the last .5", which is where the bolt unlocks and, I suppose where primary extraction happens.

If the annealing doesn't work, then I'll let you all throw some crazy idea's at me.

Edit: This is how I decided to try annealing, from 6BR:
...the bullet clears the muzzle and the pressure abruptly drops to zero (in fact, to atmospheric pressure). The cartridge case, having done its job to seal the chamber, has more "work" to do. It must spring away from the chamber walls so it may be extracted. If it does not, it will be a b*tch to remove from the gun. If it fails to spring back from the chamber walls sufficiently, it will seem to be a little "sticky". If it does not spring back at all, it will take the hot hammers of hell to remove it.

In order for the cartridge case to perform its tricky tasks again and again, it must have its properties restored from time to time. ...

 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I'm experiencing the same exact thing in a Remington 700 5r with new brass. If it's helps getting to a solution, I'm happy to send you a few new casings for comparison...just send me a PM.

By the way, my 1st post. I want to thank all the contributors, I've learned a lot.

Great forum!
 
Re: My gun hates lapua brass?

I'll let you now how the annealing goes. I'm hitting the range one saturday, I think I'll be shooting the annealed cases then.
 
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