My thoughts on 22lr barrel length...

jbell

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    There has been a bit of chatter lately about 22lr barrel length, and it's affect on precision. So I thought I would give my $0.02 and a little data as an example to support my thoughts. This will come as no big surprise to anyone who knows me or has been forced to listen to me talk about what I prefer in a 22lr rifle built for precision. I also freely admit that I am not trying to claim this is something I came up with. It's just something that I have found to hold true based on my personal experiences chasing the 22lr precision dragon.

    *I say precision because I firmly believe that in order to have accuracy you have to start with precision, and precision is a result of consistency.

    That being said IMO one of the biggest variables in both precision and accuracy with 22lr is ammo. As everyone knows rimfire ammo isn't as easily manipulated as centerfire, meaning most of us do not load our own. Therefore we are at the mercy of the quality of ammo that we can purchase. There are ways of dealing with this. With a few examples being buying high quality ammo from a known good brand. Testing that ammo in your specific barrel to see which lot does the best. Sorting the ammo visually based on defects, but most premium ammo doesn't show much if any visual defects. Tuning the barrel harmonics with weights to a specific ammo.

    All of these can be very effective and I have tested & employed every one. But each have given varied results in different barrels, some barrels responded well to one method where others needed a different approach to net a noticable improvement on target. Which is all fine.

    But here is the rub for me: I have owned many very high end rifles built by the best in the industry using the best components available and over many years of testing I have found only 1 thing that seems to always translate into better precision across a wide variety of ammo vs all the other. To me that's the key, "across a wide variety of ammo". It is barrel length.

    Yes trying different ammo, lot testing, & tuners works for any barrel length but it's all very ammo specific.

    Over the years I have built rifles with 18" up to 27" barrels and they all have been shooters. But I have found the shorter barrels are more sensitive to ammo selection, have higher ES & SD over the chronograph, and generally do not produce the very best precision (keep in mind I'm talking a very small difference, but a difference none the less).

    I wanted to present this little bit of data to maybe generate a conversation and some thoughts on the subject. I welcome and appreciate others opinions and findings. If you think I'm full of shit, then let's talk about that. My whole reason for ever posting this or most anything here on the Hide is to learn and maybe pass on a little info too.

    On to it:

    The rifle used for this "test" is a Vudoo 360, with a VGW installed Benchmark 3 groove, 1-15t, 26", non threaded, Ravage chamber, in a Bravo chassis, and a Trigger tech Diamond.
    IMG_20220424_104414392.jpg

    The conditions were as followed:
    IMG_20220424_104832939.jpg
    IMG_20220424_104909894.jpg
    IMG_20220424_104921141.jpg
    IMG_20220424_104929498.jpg

    Everything was shot within about 20 minutes, so the conditions were all the same. The ammo and rifle were at ambient temp. The rifle and chronograph were set up and tested for reliability and not moved during the test. The ammo was random lots of which I have never chronographed before. The bore was fouled but not seasoned for the ammo before the test. Each pic represents 10 rounds fired from 1 magazine at a fairly quick pace. I limited it to 10 rounds each due to ammo availability issues, but it's a generally accepted sample size. I did have 2 different lots of Lapua Center X with me so I tested both.

    First up is 2 different lots of Lapua Center X:

    IMG_20220424_103059670.jpg
    IMG_20220403_173323175.jpg

    Lapua Polar:
    IMG_20220424_103249099.jpg

    SK Long Range:
    IMG_20220424_104225963.jpg

    SK Rifle Match:
    IMG_20220424_103637562.jpg

    SK Standard Plus:
    IMG_20220424_103637562.jpg


    In my opinion these are pretty good numbers for 22lr ammo. Yes I know the velocity is slow but that is expected for the barrel length. In addition to low ES & SD numbers I have held a belief that keeping the 22lr down under 1060fps helps with precision. Of course you have a slightly longer dwell time and more wind effect, so you have to have better follow through and pay closer attention to the wind. But nothing is free.

    If you curious about how these targets looked I'll post them below. However they were not shot with the up most precision in mind, I was not paying attention to the wind (2-6 mph switching from a straight on head wind to a left to right full value) other than trying to not shoot in big gust. I was shooting pretty quickly but doing my best to execute proper shot mechanics (as I do with every round I shoot). But you can clearly see the wind in the targets.
    I only have 1 of the center X 10 round targets as one was 2 sets of 5 and I don't remember which they were. All are 10 rounds at 50 yards.
    IMG_20220424_105659404.jpg

    IMG_20220424_105656037.jpg


    Like I said, just thought I would share my $0.02...
     

    JBoomhauer

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    Thanks jbell! You helped a ton with setting up my 25” 360 and it has proven itself. I’m glad to see the 15tw up and running.
     
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    tlsmith22

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    Great write up man! I just got my Vudoo back from DI Precision after getting a new Mullerworks barrel. It was supposed to be a 24” MTU profile but ended up being a 23’, long story. It has 3/4” thread to accept the EC Tuner set flush to the end of the crown and looks very good IMHO. I have had trouble getting my Labradar to read my ammo but I did some very similar testing without a chrono. Mine was lot tested at Lapua and I ended up with a case of Midas Plus. I randomly purchased a couple lots of CX and it loved one of them more than the Midas. I just got some Eley Match to try last week and it blew everything away, it was stupid accurate. I tested at 50, 100 and 200 yards. I did some 10 shot groups or I would do 5-5 shot groups.
     
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    jbell

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    I find that position of the Labradar vs the muzzle is important, basically put it right next to it. I think I have it set up for pistol and the sensitivity (or whatever it's called) on like 8. I found this gives the most repeatable measurements without any missed shots or false triggers. I have tried the external mic and the inertia trigger (that you attach to the rifle) and neither gives as good results. IMO it's worth the time playing with it to get it to work.
     
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    tlsmith22

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    I find that position of the Labradar vs the muzzle is important, basically put it right next to it. I think I have it set up for pistol and the sensitivity (or whatever it's called) on like 8. I found this gives the most repeatable measurements without any missed shots or false triggers. I have tried the external mic and the inertia trigger (that you attach to the rifle) and neither gives as good results. IMO it's worth the time playing with it to get it to work.
    I had changed the velocity range to pistol and the sensitivity. I probably need to play with muzzle placement like you suggested, I will give that a try.
     

    Appalachian

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    A slower bullet is less affected by wind when it comes to Rimfire. I know it’s the opposite of Centerfire.

    I won an ARA Factory class match against several of the best in the nation on a moderately mild wind day using my 16.5” barrel. The next match was super windy and I got my ass handed to me by the 24” barrels. Not only because of the wind, but because they’re more skilled and consistent than me.

    Talking with a couple of competitors at that match, discussing how far we had to hold off to make a center hit, I learned that with my short barrel I was having to hold off considerably more than they did. That was because of the faster speed of the bullets out of the short barrel.
     
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    jbell

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    Appalachian, that is very interesting. I do wish I had a few shorter barrel rifles still so I could do a side by side of this chronograph test with the same ammo. I would also do a wind deflection test. Maybe something like 2 shooters with the same ammo shooting two drastically different barrel lengths breaking the shot at the same time. It would be interesting…
     
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    blindspotter

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    I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other, but I did get a 26 inch barrel 22lr based on similar things I've read on here from you and orkan (and others I'm sure). The question that's always been on my mind is why some manufacturers are so against long barrels, to the point they don't offer them. The market wants them (for balance purposes mainly) yet companies like Vudoo and IBI put a cap on their "factory" lengths at 22 inches. Of course you can custom order or rebarrel to go longer and many seem to be doing that. Maybe I'm overestimating the market demand?

    I agree it's too bad you didn't have a shorter barrel Vudoo to run alongside this one in your test. But then again maybe there are so many other factors that influence velocity and SD that no real conclusions could be drawn based on just barrel length?
     

    DaveCo

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    There's lots of info on why lower velocity ammo suffers less wind deflection. The subsonic drag coefficient is much lower subsonic. I'm sure to screw up if I try to explain more, but lots of reading on this site, Accurate shooter, and RFC.

    A few years ago, a buddy and I were playing around chronoing a bunch of ammo, and playing with his Labradar. Not controlled enough to make statements about velocity changes per inch or anything, but clearly, consistently the longer barrels exhibited lower ES/SD numbers. In our testing (7 different ammos, 2 lots Center-x, 2 lots Tenex, 2 lots Midas +, 1 lot each of SK Rifle Match, Pistol Match, and Std+) every ammo exhibited this.

    We repeated with different guns (longest barrel my old apperature sighted Win Mod52, 28 inches), and got the same results. These were the good'ol days when ammo was easy and everywhere.

    I know there are accuracy arguments for shorter barrels involving dwell time, but based solely on the ES/SD results, I would think a longer barrel would be the way to go as distances increase, and the detrimental impact of velocity variations are magnified.

    Thoughts....

    Dave
     
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    JBoomhauer

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    My experience has been that the longer barrel helps with balance in PRS type shooting, but like mentioned above the longer time spent in the barrel takes some getting used to. It takes a solid follow through to shoot well.
     
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    simpletoms

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    Long barrels… I too feel as if they work best, my best shooters are long barreled rifles. I own/have owned several Winchester model 52’s. Pre A’s, B’s, C’s and a D. All that I currently own wil shoot sub 1” at 100 on a 6x5. The Bull Barrel and the cut down C (24”) will shoot .7-.75 on low wind days. My Mark Penrod H&R model 12 is a .6-.75” rifle. I’m pretty sure it’s 28” (I’m away from the rifle for the moment sorry) and it has a tuner. My Vudoo (22”) is a bit finicky on ammo but is a .75-.85 rifle when I find the right ammo. Once found, it is consistent, but doesn’t come close to the Model 12.

    All of this to say, if you’re trying for the best accuracy, long barrels are the place to start.
     
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    mosin46

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    interesting and helpful. until i chrono (and get some decent low wind days) my inclination has been to make my 16" lilja 457 a 50-100 yd gun and my 21" anshutz factory my 100-200 yd gun. no data to support that but info here makes me start that way. tx.
     

    littlepod

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    In my testing the past few weeks I noticed that my slower rounds were affected by wind more. We had a left to right wind and the rounds coming out at 1045 vs 1080 had more poi shift to the right. (and they were slightly lower too)

    That's not science testing, but just my observation.
     

    justin amateur

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    I had a problem when I tried to verify muzzle velocity differences with differing length barrels.
    Some times the shorter barrel had better ES/SD....sometimes the long barrel had better ES/SD.
    The numbers left me wondering if the results are due to barrel length, rifling finish or cartridge differences.
    The fact that no two cartridges are identical and rarely do they show "duplicate" on the chronograph
    have me thinking my sample sizes are too small (50 shots each barrel) or the mv variations are cartridge related, not barrel. :(
     
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    brianf

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    not length in particular but what your take on squeeze bore

    i know some guys slug the bore and look for the tight spot...that would need a pretty long blank depending on the choke point location

    thansk
     

    DaveCo

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    In my testing the past few weeks I noticed that my slower rounds were affected by wind more. We had a left to right wind and the rounds coming out at 1045 vs 1080 had more poi shift to the right. (and they were slightly lower too)

    That's not science testing, but just my observation.
    I think (emphasis on the think), that the real difference is sub v supersonic. My understanding is that's where the shift in drag coefficient occurs, so in your example, both are subsonic, so I would expect the slower one with its longer time of flight to be more impacted.

    I think

    Dave
     
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    DaveCo

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    I had a problem when I tried to verify muzzle velocity differences with differing length barrels.
    Some times the shorter barrel had better ES/SD....sometimes the long barrel had better ES/SD.
    The numbers left me wondering if the results are due to barrel length, rifling finish or cartridge differences.
    The fact that no two cartridges are identical and rarely do they show "duplicate" on the chronograph
    have me thinking my sample sizes are too small (50 shots each barrel) or the mv variations are cartridge related, not barrel. :(
    While we didn't have any short barrels produce lower ES/SD results, I can believe it happens.
    We had a pretty large difference between our short (2 16, 1 18) and Long (1 24.5, 1 26, 1 28).
    I would imagine that as the difference lessens, the underlying noise would be greater than the very small differences observed.
    I have considered, in the attempt to remove variables, to switch barrels on the same action, removing ignition differences (assuming identical headspacing) as a possible cause of ES/SD variation. A better approach might be two identical actions, and rotate the barrels. Of course then you have to consider barrel and chamber differences.

    More than I can take on, but I'm kind of surprised no one has.

    Dave
     

    Asared

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    Single shot target rifles designed for ISSF style shooting have long barrels. Anschutz, G&E, Bleiker and Walther all offer their rifles with typically 650mm to 690mm barrels (25.6" to 27.2"). There are a couple of obvious reasons for this, one being that the longer barrel is overall heavier and puts this weight further forward. The increased weight/inertia helps to keep the rifle steady while aiming in these unsupported or sling supported shooting positions and also resists recoil induced movement. A second reason is that with aperture sights, increasing the sight radius allows for more precise aiming. Further to this, barrel extensions can be used to further increase the sight radius.

    Take for example a typical target rifle with a 26" barrel and a 6" barrel extension fitted giving a total of 32". Now suppose for this theoretical example 18" was the "optimum" barrel length. You could fit an identical rifle with an 18" barrel, add a 14" extension tube and get the same 32". You could even make the extension tube of steel of the correct wall thickness so that the two barrel/extension tube combinations had the same weight in total and in the same places. With this set-up you'd have the "optimum" barrel length for precision but with the same weight and sight radius benefits of the longer barrel. The manufacturers chose not to go down this route and they know what they are doing when it comes to making top class rifles so there must be more to it. Thoughts?
     

    jbell

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    I got back out to the range today as opposed to working (thank you COVID) and I did a larger sample size of center x and polar. The conditions were similar but warmer by about 8⁰ and windier.

    Here is a 30 round string of center x
    IMG_20220425_144628099.jpg

    And what was a 20 round string of polar but it looks like 1 round didn't register
    IMG_20220425_145144492.jpg

    Just thought I would add a little more info to this thread.
     

    KnowNothing256

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    Single shot target rifles designed for ISSF style shooting have long barrels. Anschutz, G&E, Bleiker and Walther all offer their rifles with typically 650mm to 690mm barrels (25.6" to 27.2"). There are a couple of obvious reasons for this, one being that the longer barrel is overall heavier and puts this weight further forward. The increased weight/inertia helps to keep the rifle steady while aiming in these unsupported or sling supported shooting positions and also resists recoil induced movement. A second reason is that with aperture sights, increasing the sight radius allows for more precise aiming. Further to this, barrel extensions can be used to further increase the sight radius.

    Take for example a typical target rifle with a 26" barrel and a 6" barrel extension fitted giving a total of 32". Now suppose for this theoretical example 18" was the "optimum" barrel length. You could fit an identical rifle with an 18" barrel, add a 14" extension tube and get the same 32". You could even make the extension tube of steel of the correct wall thickness so that the two barrel/extension tube combinations had the same weight in total and in the same places. With this set-up you'd have the "optimum" barrel length for precision but with the same weight and sight radius benefits of the longer barrel. The manufacturers chose not to go down this route and they know what they are doing when it comes to making top class rifles so there must be more to it. Thoughts?
    I can only speak for myself, but the sight radius is utterly irrelevant to me. I’m not shooting irons, so that oft-quoted benefit is not one at all.

    However, I’m definitely in the camp of wanting a trainer that mimics the handling of my CF rifle. Also, definitely interested in the ballistic differences between shorts and longs, esp if longer barrels are better (more consistent) since I just ordered one haha
     

    Asared

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    I can only speak for myself, but the sight radius is utterly irrelevant to me. I’m not shooting irons, so that oft-quoted benefit is not one at all.

    I mentioned this as it's one "excuse" that target rifles could use for having a longer barrel. However, there are other ways to achieve this without a long barrel, as mentioned in my example. The point I was trying to make is that there must be more to it than weight and sight radius or the top manufacturers wouldn't do it.
     
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    Rob01

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    Pretty slow and not out of the ordinary SDs to go change a barrel to 26". I get 6-8SDs for 10 rounds of Center X of multiple lots in my 18". Velocities are between 1060 to 1105 fps average depending on lot. I had some lots of FGMM UM22 that was about 1106fps and 6 SDs and was super accurate out to 400 yards. I wish I bought more. I get plenty of accuracy and velocity from my 18" and don't see a need to go longer. If someone wanted to then that's their time and money to spend and I wish them luck.
     

    FromMyColdDeadHand

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    I find that going between ammo brands that the first few rounds through the old ‘grease’ will yield a few fast rounds. Just a general observation. That and my Benchmark barrel doesn’t like to cool down, if I wait more than a minute between rounds, I drop a bunch of speed.

    Specifically on barrel length- longer barrels are cooler and a 26 inch barrel with subs is quieter than HV ammo with a suppressor- at least to me. To me a 26 inch barrel is about as long as a 20 inch plus suppressor- so why go with a suppressor? But perhaps that is another thread.

    ETA— Negative density altitude, I’ll never see that. For some reason I thought you were in Kansas or Nebraksa? That old profile pic that looked like you were out on the Praire?
     

    KnowNothing256

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    Specifically on barrel length- longer barrels are cooler and a 26 inch barrel with subs is quieter than HV ammo with a suppressor- at least to me. To me a 26 inch barrel is about as long as a 20 inch plus suppressor- so why go with a suppressor? But perhaps that is another thread.
    Because subs with a suppressor is awesome :D
     
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    jbell

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    Pretty slow and not out of the ordinary SDs to go change a barrel to 26". I get 6-8SDs for 10 rounds of Center X of multiple lots in my 18". Velocities are between 1060 to 1105 fps average depending on lot. I had some lots of FGMM UM22 that was about 1106fps and 6 SDs and was super accurate out to 400 yards. I wish I bought more. I get plenty of accuracy and velocity from my 18" and don't see a need to go longer. If someone wanted to then that's their time and money to spend and I wish them luck.
    I hear ya Rob, I have had more than enough 18”-22” barrels that are excellent shooters that produced very low ES & SD. However what I found & the point behind this thread is that with the shorter rimfire barrels I have to be more selective on ammo. After tens of what I will call mid length rimfire barrels (18”-22”) and roughly an equal number of longer barrels (24”-27”), I know it is not a huge sample (but I am budget and time limited), I have found the longer barrels are a bit more “forgiving“ to ammo selection and normally will produce a slightly better extreme accuracy with the best ammo for that barrel. All of my “amazing” shooters have been long barrels.

    I also have observed that a true premium rimfire barrel with a very clean chambering job and crown of most any length nets a bigger gain in stable velocities than does say a factory barrel (including quite a few Anschutz match barrels, they are not always as good as people think).

    One thing I should have mentioned in my original post is that in my experience the difference between the medium barrels and long barrels is well within the normal effects of a slightly breezy day. Meaning the slightest breeze, say over 3-5 mph will erase any improvement that there may be from some of my best medium length barrels to the long barrels. This is a marginal gain thing & to me an interesting phenomenon that I have observed.
     

    obx22

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    There has been a bit of chatter lately about 22lr barrel length, and it's affect on precision. So I thought I would give my $0.02 and a little data as an example to support my thoughts. This will come as no big surprise to anyone who knows me or has been forced to listen to me talk about what I prefer in a 22lr rifle built for precision. I also freely admit that I am not trying to claim this is something I came up with. It's just something that I have found to hold true based on my personal experiences chasing the 22lr precision dragon.

    *I say precision because I firmly believe that in order to have accuracy you have to start with precision, and precision is a result of consistency.

    That being said IMO one of the biggest variables in both precision and accuracy with 22lr is ammo. As everyone knows rimfire ammo isn't as easily manipulated as centerfire, meaning most of us do not load our own. Therefore we are at the mercy of the quality of ammo that we can purchase. There are ways of dealing with this. With a few examples being buying high quality ammo from a known good brand. Testing that ammo in your specific barrel to see which lot does the best. Sorting the ammo visually based on defects, but most premium ammo doesn't show much if any visual defects. Tuning the barrel harmonics with weights to a specific ammo.

    All of these can be very effective and I have tested & employed every one. But each have given varied results in different barrels, some barrels responded well to one method where others needed a different approach to net a noticable improvement on target. Which is all fine.

    But here is the rub for me: I have owned many very high end rifles built by the best in the industry using the best components available and over many years of testing I have found only 1 thing that seems to always translate into better precision across a wide variety of ammo vs all the other. To me that's the key, "across a wide variety of ammo". It is barrel length.

    Yes trying different ammo, lot testing, & tuners works for any barrel length but it's all very ammo specific.

    Over the years I have built rifles with 18" up to 27" barrels and they all have been shooters. But I have found the shorter barrels are more sensitive to ammo selection, have higher ES & SD over the chronograph, and generally do not produce the very best precision (keep in mind I'm talking a very small difference, but a difference none the less).

    I wanted to present this little bit of data to maybe generate a conversation and some thoughts on the subject. I welcome and appreciate others opinions and findings. If you think I'm full of shit, then let's talk about that. My whole reason for ever posting this or most anything here on the Hide is to learn and maybe pass on a little info too.

    On to it:

    The rifle used for this "test" is a Vudoo 360, with a VGW installed Benchmark 3 groove, 1-15t, 26", non threaded, Ravage chamber, in a Bravo chassis, and a Trigger tech Diamond.
    View attachment 7856152
    The conditions were as followed:
    View attachment 7856153View attachment 7856154View attachment 7856155View attachment 7856156
    Everything was shot within about 20 minutes, so the conditions were all the same. The ammo and rifle were at ambient temp. The rifle and chronograph were set up and tested for reliability and not moved during the test. The ammo was random lots of which I have never chronographed before. The bore was fouled but not seasoned for the ammo before the test. Each pic represents 10 rounds fired from 1 magazine at a fairly quick pace. I limited it to 10 rounds each due to ammo availability issues, but it's a generally accepted sample size. I did have 2 different lots of Lapua Center X with me so I tested both.

    First up is 2 different lots of Lapua Center X:

    View attachment 7856158View attachment 7856159
    Lapua Polar:
    View attachment 7856160
    SK Long Range:
    View attachment 7856161
    SK Rifle Match:
    View attachment 7856162
    SK Standard Plus:
    View attachment 7856164

    In my opinion these are pretty good numbers for 22lr ammo. Yes I know the velocity is slow but that is expected for the barrel length. In addition to low ES & SD numbers I have held a belief that keeping the 22lr down under 1060fps helps with precision. Of course you have a slightly longer dwell time and more wind effect, so you have to have better follow through and pay closer attention to the wind. But nothing is free.

    If you curious about how these targets looked I'll post them below. However they were not shot with the up most precision in mind, I was not paying attention to the wind (2-6 mph switching from a straight on head wind to a left to right full value) other than trying to not shoot in big gust. I was shooting pretty quickly but doing my best to execute proper shot mechanics (as I do with every round I shoot). But you can clearly see the wind in the targets.
    I only have 1 of the center X 10 round targets as one was 2 sets of 5 and I don't remember which they were. All are 10 rounds at 50 yards.
    View attachment 7856167
    View attachment 7856168

    Like I said, just thought I would share my $0.02...
    There has been a bit of chatter lately about 22lr barrel length, and it's affect on precision. So I thought I would give my $0.02 and a little data as an example to support my thoughts. This will come as no big surprise to anyone who knows me or has been forced to listen to me talk about what I prefer in a 22lr rifle built for precision. I also freely admit that I am not trying to claim this is something I came up with. It's just something that I have found to hold true based on my personal experiences chasing the 22lr precision dragon.

    *I say precision because I firmly believe that in order to have accuracy you have to start with precision, and precision is a result of consistency.

    That being said IMO one of the biggest variables in both precision and accuracy with 22lr is ammo. As everyone knows rimfire ammo isn't as easily manipulated as centerfire, meaning most of us do not load our own. Therefore we are at the mercy of the quality of ammo that we can purchase. There are ways of dealing with this. With a few examples being buying high quality ammo from a known good brand. Testing that ammo in your specific barrel to see which lot does the best. Sorting the ammo visually based on defects, but most premium ammo doesn't show much if any visual defects. Tuning the barrel harmonics with weights to a specific ammo.

    All of these can be very effective and I have tested & employed every one. But each have given varied results in different barrels, some barrels responded well to one method where others needed a different approach to net a noticable improvement on target. Which is all fine.

    But here is the rub for me: I have owned many very high end rifles built by the best in the industry using the best components available and over many years of testing I have found only 1 thing that seems to always translate into better precision across a wide variety of ammo vs all the other. To me that's the key, "across a wide variety of ammo". It is barrel length.

    Yes trying different ammo, lot testing, & tuners works for any barrel length but it's all very ammo specific.

    Over the years I have built rifles with 18" up to 27" barrels and they all have been shooters. But I have found the shorter barrels are more sensitive to ammo selection, have higher ES & SD over the chronograph, and generally do not produce the very best precision (keep in mind I'm talking a very small difference, but a difference none the less).

    I wanted to present this little bit of data to maybe generate a conversation and some thoughts on the subject. I welcome and appreciate others opinions and findings. If you think I'm full of shit, then let's talk about that. My whole reason for ever posting this or most anything here on the Hide is to learn and maybe pass on a little info too.

    On to it:

    The rifle used for this "test" is a Vudoo 360, with a VGW installed Benchmark 3 groove, 1-15t, 26", non threaded, Ravage chamber, in a Bravo chassis, and a Trigger tech Diamond.
    View attachment 7856152
    The conditions were as followed:
    View attachment 7856153View attachment 7856154View attachment 7856155View attachment 7856156
    Everything was shot within about 20 minutes, so the conditions were all the same. The ammo and rifle were at ambient temp. The rifle and chronograph were set up and tested for reliability and not moved during the test. The ammo was random lots of which I have never chronographed before. The bore was fouled but not seasoned for the ammo before the test. Each pic represents 10 rounds fired from 1 magazine at a fairly quick pace. I limited it to 10 rounds each due to ammo availability issues, but it's a generally accepted sample size. I did have 2 different lots of Lapua Center X with me so I tested both.

    First up is 2 different lots of Lapua Center X:

    View attachment 7856158View attachment 7856159
    Lapua Polar:
    View attachment 7856160
    SK Long Range:
    View attachment 7856161
    SK Rifle Match:
    View attachment 7856162
    SK Standard Plus:
    View attachment 7856164

    In my opinion these are pretty good numbers for 22lr ammo. Yes I know the velocity is slow but that is expected for the barrel length. In addition to low ES & SD numbers I have held a belief that keeping the 22lr down under 1060fps helps with precision. Of course you have a slightly longer dwell time and more wind effect, so you have to have better follow through and pay closer attention to the wind. But nothing is free.

    If you curious about how these targets looked I'll post them below. However they were not shot with the up most precision in mind, I was not paying attention to the wind (2-6 mph switching from a straight on head wind to a left to right full value) other than trying to not shoot in big gust. I was shooting pretty quickly but doing my best to execute proper shot mechanics (as I do with every round I shoot). But you can clearly see the wind in the targets.
    I only have 1 of the center X 10 round targets as one was 2 sets of 5 and I don't remember which they were. All are 10 rounds at 50 yards.
    View attachment 7856167
    View attachment 7856168

    Like I said, just thought I would share my $0.02...
    jbell,
    Nope, I don’t think you are full of it at all. Each of up are exposed to a “sampling” of firearms, some more than others, but never the same. We can only judge based on what we see and trust in others.
    If there is firearm love in my heart it is for nice (pretty) sporters and the new precision repeaters. My current sporters run from a 25”+ Walther to a 16” match Contender. Target guns have gone as long as 29.5” system aydt (sold) to the late prod. Bergara B 14-R in 18”. My takeaway, even from disappointing dream guns since sold, is it’s all in the barrel quality.
    A local well heeled gent had a custom full blown bench gun built by a famous fella from down south. It would pinwheel targets.
    During a local bench match he lost to a CZ 452 American of mine in the capable hands of a new to shooting lady coached by my best friend. The CZ was stock except for a massaged 4oz trigger. Point is, at 50yds it was as much the nut behind the trigger, as anything else.
    I’ve only been exposed to the long distance thing a short while. It’s a pain (due to the ammo crunch), for me to go bouncing my LR scope set-up from gun to gun to truly test at 400. Furthermore I don’t own what’s necessary to even sight in barrel mounted scopes on my 52C, 40X, Schultz & Larsen, etc. an what’s there doesn’t have the elevation necessary.
    As for wind deflection, potential accuracy, and bore consistency, I don’t believe it would be possible to absolutely nail down the data with multiple barrels/guns. If you could locate a single “perfect” barrel, one who’s bore slugs completely uniform from chamber to crown repeatedly, and in every measurable way, you would still have to have the “perfect” chamber cut (evolving tech), the perfect crown (which might be completely different if suppressed), etc.
    Then be willing to test (and I assume it would take a tunnel with crosswind generating blowers), by lopping of portions at a time, recrowning or rechambering after each chop, and repeating your test. Even then, different bullet profiles which are changed by being forced through the rifling, would have dramatically different BC readings both at the muzzle, as well as at several points down range. It would be a hellacious undertaking beyond the abilities of anyone I know.
    Anyone have a blimp hanger we could borrow?
     

    Jetson

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    There's lots of info on why lower velocity ammo suffers less wind deflection. The subsonic drag coefficient is much lower subsonic. I'm sure to screw up if I try to explain more, but lots of reading on this site, Accurate shooter, and RFC.

    A few years ago, a buddy and I were playing around chronoing a bunch of ammo, and playing with his Labradar. Not controlled enough to make statements about velocity changes per inch or anything, but clearly, consistently the longer barrels exhibited lower ES/SD numbers. In our testing (7 different ammos, 2 lots Center-x, 2 lots Tenex, 2 lots Midas +, 1 lot each of SK Rifle Match, Pistol Match, and Std+) every ammo exhibited this.

    We repeated with different guns (longest barrel my old apperature sighted Win Mod52, 28 inches), and got the same results. These were the good'ol days when ammo was easy and everywhere.

    I know there are accuracy arguments for shorter barrels involving dwell time, but based solely on the ES/SD results, I would think a longer barrel would be the way to go as distances increase, and the detrimental impact of velocity variations are magnified.

    Thoughts....

    Dave
     

    10X Rifles

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    I have an Annie rebarreled by Mark Penrod with a 26" Shilen Ratchet. I have a 360 Vudoo with a 24" Shilen Ratchet. I shoot SB F-class.
    It's a lot easier to clean 50 meter and 100 yd targets with the Annie over the Vudoo. Am thinking of having Bartlein make a Carbon Fiber Rimfire barrel 26" long and have it put on the Vudoo. Anybody else done this with a CArbon Fiber barrel?
     

    simpletoms

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    I have an Annie rebarreled by Mark Penrod with a 26" Shilen Ratchet. I have a 360 Vudoo with a 24" Shilen Ratchet. I shoot SB F-class.
    It's a lot easier to clean 50 meter and 100 yd targets with the Annie over the Vudoo. Am thinking of having Bartlein make a Carbon Fiber Rimfire barrel 26" long and have it put on the Vudoo. Anybody else done this with a CArbon Fiber barrel?
    Can you expand some more on the performance of the shilen ratchet barrel? Been thinking of building up a v360 and I really like the idea of Mark Penrod doing the work. I’d like to try a 26” barrel. Essentially creating a modern day 52 bull barrel...
     

    Jim Boatright

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    Have any of you rimfire guys tried clamp-on barrel-block bedding with the action and front part of the barrel free floating? That gives the barrel vibration tuning ease of the short barrels while retaining the rifle balance, lower subsonic muzzle speed, and greater barrel dwell of a long barrel. I have written an Excel spreadsheet which calculates muzzle motions for QuickLOAD calculated bullet exit times. It only works for isotropic steel barrels, though. Email me at <[email protected]> and I will send it as an attachment in my reply. Most rimfire tuners only tune for bullet exit at (or just before) a muzzle reversal (when lateral muzzle acceleration is usually greatest). Centerfire rifle tuning must tune for minimum lateral acceleration at bullet exit because of the longer distance between the CG of the bullet and its point of last contact during bullet exit.

    Crosswind sensitivity is primarily due to the aerodynamic drag force acting on the bullet, which increases with Mach speed, and is only secondarily affected by time-of-flight to the target.
     
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    jbell

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    Have any of you rimfire guys tried clamp-on barrel-block bedding with the action and front part of the barrel free floating? That gives the barrel vibration tuning ease of the short barrels while retaining the rifle balance, lower subsonic muzzle speed, and greater barrel dwell of a long barrel. I have written an Excel spreadsheet which calculates muzzle motions for QuickLOAD calculated bullet exit times. It only works for isotropic steel barrels, though. Email me at <[email protected]> and I will send it as an attachment in my reply. Most rimfire tuners only tune for bullet exit at (or just before) a muzzle reversal (when lateral muzzle acceleration is usually greatest). Centerfire rifle tuning must tune for minimum lateral acceleration at bullet exit because of the longer distance between the CG of the bullet and its point of last contact during bullet exit.

    Crosswind sensitivity is primarily due to the aerodynamic drag force acting on the bullet, which increases with Mach speed, and is only secondarily affected by time-of-flight to the target.
    We have a member who I think has played with it, at least he has some rifles built like that, but I don’t want to speak for him… @justin amateur
     

    justin amateur

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    I use full length barrel bedding.
    Minimize or eliminate barrel harmonics with the barrel epoxy bedded and clamped in place.
    For best results it's all on cartridge quality.
     

    brianf

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    Have any of you rimfire guys tried clamp-on barrel-block bedding with the action and front part of the barrel free floating? That gives the barrel vibration tuning ease of the short barrels while retaining the rifle balance, lower subsonic muzzle speed, and greater barrel dwell of a long barrel. I have written an Excel spreadsheet which calculates muzzle motions for QuickLOAD calculated bullet exit times. It only works for isotropic steel barrels, though. Email me at <[email protected]> and I will send it as an attachment in my reply. Most rimfire tuners only tune for bullet exit at (or just before) a muzzle reversal (when lateral muzzle acceleration is usually greatest). Centerfire rifle tuning must tune for minimum lateral acceleration at bullet exit because of the longer distance between the CG of the bullet and its point of last contact during bullet exit.

    Crosswind sensitivity is primarily due to the aerodynamic drag force acting on the bullet, which increases with Mach speed, and is only secondarily affected by time-of-flight to the target.
    Quick question..

    Is the changing of barrel harmonics the primary reason to use a clamp on barrel block?

    I would think on cylinder barreled rail guns it’s removing the stress/flex from the action screws and bedding. But with a skinny barrel the changing of harmonics may trump action stress as the barrel is not as heavy.

    Thanks
     

    Jim Boatright

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    I use full length barrel bedding.
    Minimize or eliminate barrel harmonics with the barrel epoxy bedded and clamped in place.
    For best results it's all on cartridge quality.
    Yes, I did that with a "Ruger" 10/22 in a laminated stock. Would be a winner in IR 50/50 if it were legal. Imagine being able to shoot all 25 record shots in one wind condition.
     

    brianf

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    Yes, I did that with a "Ruger" 10/22 in a laminated stock. Would be a winner in IR 50/50 if it were legal. Imagine being able to shoot all 25 record shots in one wind condition.
    So by bedding the barrel and the action is “hanging” the viibration while trying to find a out focuses on the action rather than the barrel which is locked down/bedded.
     

    Jim Boatright

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    Quick question..

    Is the changing of barrel harmonics the primary reason to use a clamp on barrel block?

    I would think on cylinder barreled rail guns it’s removing the stress/flex from the action screws and bedding. But with a skinny barrel the changing of harmonics may trump action stress as the barrel is not as heavy.

    Thanks
    Yes, the short barrel length in front of the bedding block is much easier to tune at the muzzle than a long barrel. The clamp-on bedding block should ideally not stress the barrel at all. I find that a scope rail cantilevered from the top of the barrel block is also a good idea for minimizing vibrational coupling through to the muzzle at bullet exit. Everything attaches only to the bedding block, each with its own recoil-driven vibrational characteristics.
     

    brianf

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    Yes, the short barrel length in front of the bedding block is much easier to tune at the muzzle than a long barrel. The clamp-on bedding block should ideally not stress the barrel at all. I find that a scope rail cantilevered from the top of the barrel block is also a good idea for minimizing vibrational coupling through to the muzzle at bullet exit. Everything attaches only to the bedding block, each with its own recoil-driven vibrational characteristics.
    Thanks.

    Just because it’s early and the brain isn’t working yet.

    When using a barrel block which clamps around the barrel:

    Do you still use a recoil lug?

    Do you even use action screws?

    Thanks
     
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    Jim Boatright

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    Thanks.

    Just because it’s early and the brain isn’t working yet.

    When using a barrel block which clamps around the barrel:

    Do you still use a recoil lug?

    Do you even use action screws?

    Thanks
    You got it, Brianf. I pillar-bed some "action screws" into the bottom of the barrel-block. Be sure the trigger does not contact in the stock or trigger guard. There really is no need for a recoil lug with 22LR, but the bedded rear face of the barrel-block handles even heavy recoil loads. I full-length bed the insides of the clamp-on barrel block to the outside of the barrel to minimize any clamping stress on the barrel. The front of the action must not touch the barrel-block. By isolating the masses of the front part of the barrel, the action, the stock, and the scope, each vibrates at differing frequencies which do not interact through the barrel block.
     
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    brianf

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    You got it, Brianf. I pillar-bed some "action screws" into the bottom of the barrel-block. Be sure the trigger does not contact in the stock or trigger guard. There really is no need for a recoil lug with 22LR, but the bedded rear face of the barrel-block handles even heavy recoil loads. I full-length bed the insides of the clamp-on barrel block to the outside of the barrel to minimize any clamping stress on the barrel. The front of the action must not touch the barrel-block. By isolating the masses of the front part of the barrel, the action, the stock, and the scope, each vibrates at differing frequencies which do not interact through the barrel block.
    I’ve read several barrel block articles and although bedding the barrel is common i have also seen competitors not bed the barrel.

    Is there that much of a difference in general.
     

    Jim Boatright

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    By minimizing the vibrational connections among the four parts I mentioned (barrel, action, stock, and scope), the vibrational effects on the muzzle at bullet exit time are more predictable; i.e., not affected as much by variations in support and hold.
     
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    justin amateur

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    I prefer bedded barrels on my rifles.
    I start out by pillar and bedding the receivers, then testing to verify improvement.
    Afterwards add an epoxy barrel support shim just forward of the barrel/receiver joint, test again.
    Add another shim above the sling stud and test again.
    Add a mid shim and test again. If the results continue improve, leave the shims in place.
    If results degrade, remove the last shim. Works for me.

    p5JDNuQnsuB7j96W1sb5GtihCHPaPeBpR3HqPYAUpK0svIMooe_0d-M4WN3NMIkJeVLFVa8282UIp0XJIFHq3iHCZtIfmhlKaeMdTwxMXk5Jpw0bkYicvAy2PrpHnUjyU7YVnfuRIXAw5Q_AaTE9X8veB9xz0hwb7A2XA47nosP4KMMIBCyQTyKPUlmmmr7TYa8K9-3wE9NhUNpZoEVop4EKBXmJJe2v0aEJdtJqaCynHRERBE6N6BiUy_NzLaupW0OJhevO-n_MQw_ZuPBd-36qlqCETlXRIhVBqWvBYcNdd1HernJ9VaX1OIb6yYJm8HRm3Kx2M_wuVVBU6Lz4e4O1khs2BCWwdBUG48r8RwRHqbWgK-rMMXW_nkTDL9Cxwj-m-0HVdMOMuEGOxCj8oNMVXoIHe5OB5JedCEBc0TbSSBR548JXYlvHrTSkbtc6mY1VeoH2HfvFFZDTgPAA2qf927FGtKjUjh6T339FH0Y6aqvmaBcd1RiY5xGiB7NOMYN9f6x_FDbFdZd_fxOwyPiuLIEi94Q2Dypf_K9p-TITyuBkPleDT7XIXdgSXiyhVZt-q6xnlAlwoly7W_X8hyn_0tyDnlda_3hFXISGo2NsgeNrFGB3fMfBaJ5-1vxjfxRWQNtOAIRmsx7PGpGCUzHGr4kubNF5JjFME6PK5RP10zJQbq4IGXapoUiVo5Ff5j49Sy1Axmd2Zue3KtJhGiBa0YTrROwFH0fvGJHtEKDvaXh1G-tEQPz9rHY=w360-h464-no


    I9QuqXuUBCW4wTeTGx9ShdhZ6BiO1VrVzcNJz6NQLuiFYyccoHwnVRKCQT58DOKDoRdLxKHocOrSF_SIjyW0-LqJP2xq92ciaTGoaLME0IcThhAOVSgH61caPXcQZKqnMez0-Op-XpVw16h8mkvlpdsSWgCI_raoFcgvKyhfkkfrPeulsYIP-RbtJoQDUCjOl3Q5EQBfSKbV3hpxUij40cADg3TdBWlE0H7pXHfFfVILxSFAfBRZMot9U1nNVz2LGX7jKMGupL6fISJbBcpMVF_OGjo4WdJaTaTyd0TwnL8F3xn5WrdJs2ZzPgcZeIIwaR5cOHMYs8qAyeFychUQQ6XXULCpgb64CG5C-MANHlsi9CPTqbOO7PrwpqWAREnV3dfHLVDyNwC6RzR5tmG0bvZA0o4UvFOk7gtdRs_or5j1akTPQ0IaHlU2jAJCs0-rLGUGwprt9lUSxikc7IKkHKc4NJOXzkFyG39r58biI5dzwYU0JD82hTkcAj4QwQqxs_owuPL5Y44JPL6vr6n7BqxaLK8G1H90zBH2XTzUyAqK0hFDBl5GnH7br7VpWDEruNMAT9PrMuG6Sfo-358oLUaqf8imuVTIBcgVCoS2g3x9E5UgdDu2qft0wKX6GO8rYlPQSBxKfW7VyLuB3j3g3z1MZW4jjry5cAPho-kwiDSh9dDNe7uKh7S-sTZMA4MFj404onT5NBkP2G5RXX_Fyg1TZxQRcf_hQaEOZMgdna2Y8a5_bNwEAANGueo=w700-h439-no


    That setup has produced some decent results in jbell's 6x5 at 200 yards
     

    obx22

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    I prefer bedded barrels on my rifles.
    I start out by pillar and bedding the receivers, then testing to verify improvement.
    Afterwards add an epoxy barrel support shim just forward of the barrel/receiver joint, test again.
    Add another shim above the sling stud and test again.
    Add a mid shim and test again. If the results continue improve, leave the shims in place.
    If results degrade, remove the last shim. Works for me.

    p5JDNuQnsuB7j96W1sb5GtihCHPaPeBpR3HqPYAUpK0svIMooe_0d-M4WN3NMIkJeVLFVa8282UIp0XJIFHq3iHCZtIfmhlKaeMdTwxMXk5Jpw0bkYicvAy2PrpHnUjyU7YVnfuRIXAw5Q_AaTE9X8veB9xz0hwb7A2XA47nosP4KMMIBCyQTyKPUlmmmr7TYa8K9-3wE9NhUNpZoEVop4EKBXmJJe2v0aEJdtJqaCynHRERBE6N6BiUy_NzLaupW0OJhevO-n_MQw_ZuPBd-36qlqCETlXRIhVBqWvBYcNdd1HernJ9VaX1OIb6yYJm8HRm3Kx2M_wuVVBU6Lz4e4O1khs2BCWwdBUG48r8RwRHqbWgK-rMMXW_nkTDL9Cxwj-m-0HVdMOMuEGOxCj8oNMVXoIHe5OB5JedCEBc0TbSSBR548JXYlvHrTSkbtc6mY1VeoH2HfvFFZDTgPAA2qf927FGtKjUjh6T339FH0Y6aqvmaBcd1RiY5xGiB7NOMYN9f6x_FDbFdZd_fxOwyPiuLIEi94Q2Dypf_K9p-TITyuBkPleDT7XIXdgSXiyhVZt-q6xnlAlwoly7W_X8hyn_0tyDnlda_3hFXISGo2NsgeNrFGB3fMfBaJ5-1vxjfxRWQNtOAIRmsx7PGpGCUzHGr4kubNF5JjFME6PK5RP10zJQbq4IGXapoUiVo5Ff5j49Sy1Axmd2Zue3KtJhGiBa0YTrROwFH0fvGJHtEKDvaXh1G-tEQPz9rHY=w360-h464-no


    I9QuqXuUBCW4wTeTGx9ShdhZ6BiO1VrVzcNJz6NQLuiFYyccoHwnVRKCQT58DOKDoRdLxKHocOrSF_SIjyW0-LqJP2xq92ciaTGoaLME0IcThhAOVSgH61caPXcQZKqnMez0-Op-XpVw16h8mkvlpdsSWgCI_raoFcgvKyhfkkfrPeulsYIP-RbtJoQDUCjOl3Q5EQBfSKbV3hpxUij40cADg3TdBWlE0H7pXHfFfVILxSFAfBRZMot9U1nNVz2LGX7jKMGupL6fISJbBcpMVF_OGjo4WdJaTaTyd0TwnL8F3xn5WrdJs2ZzPgcZeIIwaR5cOHMYs8qAyeFychUQQ6XXULCpgb64CG5C-MANHlsi9CPTqbOO7PrwpqWAREnV3dfHLVDyNwC6RzR5tmG0bvZA0o4UvFOk7gtdRs_or5j1akTPQ0IaHlU2jAJCs0-rLGUGwprt9lUSxikc7IKkHKc4NJOXzkFyG39r58biI5dzwYU0JD82hTkcAj4QwQqxs_owuPL5Y44JPL6vr6n7BqxaLK8G1H90zBH2XTzUyAqK0hFDBl5GnH7br7VpWDEruNMAT9PrMuG6Sfo-358oLUaqf8imuVTIBcgVCoS2g3x9E5UgdDu2qft0wKX6GO8rYlPQSBxKfW7VyLuB3j3g3z1MZW4jjry5cAPho-kwiDSh9dDNe7uKh7S-sTZMA4MFj404onT5NBkP2G5RXX_Fyg1TZxQRcf_hQaEOZMgdna2Y8a5_bNwEAANGueo=w700-h439-no


    That setup has produced some decent results in jbell's 6x5 at 200 yards
    Justin et all,
    Has anyone ever experimented with a full length stock where only the muzzle/last 4-6” of barrel is bedded to the stock right at it’s resting point on the front support, with everything rearward floating?
    Always wondered if it would work better. The scope would of course have to cantilever rearward to be attached at the barrel block but not protruding past the muzzle.
     

    justin amateur

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    Leverage is everything obx.
    The longer the beam length the greater the harmonic amplitude from what I remember.
    That works well with a tuner on the muzzle but not so well with the receiver vibrating on the free end.
    I have done well with short heavy barrels which are minimally affected by vibrations.
     
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    David Valdina

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    Calfee's book is worth reading. Lots of information. Looking at what the best shooters are using on BenchrestCentral.com is also worth the time. I shoot 50 yards benchrest iron sight matches, so a long barrel is the norm in that game.
     

    StLPro2A

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    A slower bullet is less affected by wind when it comes to Rimfire. I know it’s the opposite of Centerfire.

    I won an ARA Factory class match against several of the best in the nation on a moderately mild wind day using my 16.5” barrel. The next match was super windy and I got my ass handed to me by the 24” barrels. Not only because of the wind, but because they’re more skilled and consistent than me.

    Talking with a couple of competitors at that match, discussing how far we had to hold off to make a center hit, I learned that with my short barrel I was having to hold off considerably more than they did. That was because of the faster speed of the bullets out of the short barrel.
    There has been a bit of chatter lately about 22lr barrel length, and it's affect on precision. So I thought I would give my $0.02 and a little data as an example to support my thoughts. This will come as no big surprise to anyone who knows me or has been forced to listen to me talk about what I prefer in a 22lr rifle built for precision. I also freely admit that I am not trying to claim this is something I came up with. It's just something that I have found to hold true based on my personal experiences chasing the 22lr precision dragon.

    *I say precision because I firmly believe that in order to have accuracy you have to start with precision, and precision is a result of consistency.

    That being said IMO one of the biggest variables in both precision and accuracy with 22lr is ammo. As everyone knows rimfire ammo isn't as easily manipulated as centerfire, meaning most of us do not load our own. Therefore we are at the mercy of the quality of ammo that we can purchase. There are ways of dealing with this. With a few examples being buying high quality ammo from a known good brand. Testing that ammo in your specific barrel to see which lot does the best. Sorting the ammo visually based on defects, but most premium ammo doesn't show much if any visual defects. Tuning the barrel harmonics with weights to a specific ammo.

    All of these can be very effective and I have tested & employed every one. But each have given varied results in different barrels, some barrels responded well to one method where others needed a different approach to net a noticable improvement on target. Which is all fine.

    But here is the rub for me: I have owned many very high end rifles built by the best in the industry using the best components available and over many years of testing I have found only 1 thing that seems to always translate into better precision across a wide variety of ammo vs all the other. To me that's the key, "across a wide variety of ammo". It is barrel length.

    Yes trying different ammo, lot testing, & tuners works for any barrel length but it's all very ammo specific.

    Over the years I have built rifles with 18" up to 27" barrels and they all have been shooters. But I have found the shorter barrels are more sensitive to ammo selection, have higher ES & SD over the chronograph, and generally do not produce the very best precision (keep in mind I'm talking a very small difference, but a difference none the less).

    I wanted to present this little bit of data to maybe generate a conversation and some thoughts on the subject. I welcome and appreciate others opinions and findings. If you think I'm full of shit, then let's talk about that. My whole reason for ever posting this or most anything here on the Hide is to learn and maybe pass on a little info too.

    On to it:

    The rifle used for this "test" is a Vudoo 360, with a VGW installed Benchmark 3 groove, 1-15t, 26", non threaded, Ravage chamber, in a Bravo chassis, and a Trigger tech Diamond.
    View attachment 7856152
    The conditions were as followed:
    View attachment 7856153View attachment 7856154View attachment 7856155View attachment 7856156
    Everything was shot within about 20 minutes, so the conditions were all the same. The ammo and rifle were at ambient temp. The rifle and chronograph were set up and tested for reliability and not moved during the test. The ammo was random lots of which I have never chronographed before. The bore was fouled but not seasoned for the ammo before the test. Each pic represents 10 rounds fired from 1 magazine at a fairly quick pace. I limited it to 10 rounds each due to ammo availability issues, but it's a generally accepted sample size. I did have 2 different lots of Lapua Center X with me so I tested both.

    First up is 2 different lots of Lapua Center X:

    View attachment 7856158View attachment 7856159
    Lapua Polar:
    View attachment 7856160
    SK Long Range:
    View attachment 7856161
    SK Rifle Match:
    View attachment 7856162
    SK Standard Plus:
    View attachment 7856164

    In my opinion these are pretty good numbers for 22lr ammo. Yes I know the velocity is slow but that is expected for the barrel length. In addition to low ES & SD numbers I have held a belief that keeping the 22lr down under 1060fps helps with precision. Of course you have a slightly longer dwell time and more wind effect, so you have to have better follow through and pay closer attention to the wind. But nothing is free.

    If you curious about how these targets looked I'll post them below. However they were not shot with the up most precision in mind, I was not paying attention to the wind (2-6 mph switching from a straight on head wind to a left to right full value) other than trying to not shoot in big gust. I was shooting pretty quickly but doing my best to execute proper shot mechanics (as I do with every round I shoot). But you can clearly see the wind in the targets.
    I only have 1 of the center X 10 round targets as one was 2 sets of 5 and I don't remember which they were. All are 10 rounds at 50 yards.
    View attachment 7856167
    View attachment 7856168

    Like I said, just thought I would share my $0.02...
    Curious....At some barrel length, powder burn ends with pressures beginning to drop and extra barrel length drag erodes MV. Have you checked velocity versus barrel length to see where the maximum MV occurs, and what velocity is lost as barrel length increases above the maximum length/velocity? There are variations between barrel and manufacturers, but I have experiences where MV decreases as barrel length exceeds about 20". What are your experiences??
     

    jbell

    Gunny Sergeant
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  • Jan 16, 2010
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    Curious....At some barrel length, powder burn ends with pressures beginning to drop and extra barrel length drag erodes MV. Have you checked velocity versus barrel length to see where the maximum MV occurs, and what velocity is lost as barrel length increases above the maximum length/velocity? There are variations between barrel and manufacturers, but I have experiences where MV decreases as barrel length exceeds about 20". What are your experiences??
    It's obviously ammo and barrel specific because every barrel is a little different, but I have found right around there. Normally an inch or two less for the point of "max velocity" with the standard velocity match stuff.